CS is not needed for PvE viability
Seems like it would be much simpler to delete PvP.
No. PvE has suffered enough at the hands of PvP.
No. PvE has suffered enough at the hands of PvP.
I think you mean PvP has suffered enough at the hands of PvE. There is nothing challenging in PvE that requires fine tuned balance.
No. PvE has suffered enough at the hands of PvP.
I think you mean PvP has suffered enough at the hands of PvE. There is nothing challenging in PvE that requires fine tuned balance.
So pvp is finely tuned balance. Should tell that to some posters.
No. PvE has suffered enough at the hands of PvP.
Well that is the point of this thread: there is no sacrifice. I don’t want to reduce PvE mesmer to uselessness (as we have been so long) and I am saying that this nerf will not make that. It changes little to PvE mesmer and a lot to PvP mesmers.
Also, once CS is nerfed, a-net may not feel as guilty in increasing our sustained damage which would be positive for both PvE and PvP mesmers.
So pvp is finely tuned balance. Should tell that to some posters.
sPvP NEEDS finely tuned balance more than PvE. Simply because putting all classes against each other is more susceptible to their differences.
(edited by Silverkey.2078)
Good number crunching and I understand your point, but …
Anet just needs to listen to the myriad of posts admonishing them to balance the game modes separately and we wouldn’t be in this position. It’s just a very obstinate choice to NOT do this and they seem to continue to be resistant to it for some reason.
Also, once CS is nerfed, a-net may not feel as guilty in increasing our sustained damage which would be positive for both PvE and PvP mesmers.
For us to be good and feel good in pve, Anet would have to remove phantasms and rework them into our weapons damage. And i dont see that happening, ever.
That said, personally, i am quite fine beeing a group supporter, i have long given up on doing any meaningful damage by myself in pve. But i think its very understandable that people who enjoy pve go on the barricades when they hear “nerfs” while beeing quite underwhelming in the area they enjoy.
Also, once CS is nerfed, a-net may not feel as guilty in increasing our sustained damage which would be positive for both PvE and PvP mesmers.
For us to be good and feel good in pve, Anet would have to remove phantasms and rework them into our weapons damage. And i dont see that happening, ever.
That said, personally, i am quite fine beeing a group supporter, i have long given up on doing any meaningful damage by myself in pve. But i think its very understandable that people who enjoy pve go on the barricades when they hear “nerfs” while beeing quite underwhelming in the area they enjoy.
Yeah I agree with this. Though I do not like the way Mesmer is now invaluable for group buffing either as I think that is not healthy for the game in the long run.
Having said that, there is just no excuse for ANet to let Mesmer be putting out about 10-13k dps while others average about 20-26k and some an extreme of 30k+. Same for Druid/ranger and in some ways warrior but then warrior only needs a small boost tbh.
I just wanted to clearly debunk something I have seen over and over when mentioning a nerf to CS. Many people (including mesmers) suggest a nerf to CS, often by preventing elite skills to be cast. And many mesmers argue this would kill PvE mesmers. So this is simply not true.
First, if one simply prevents elites, then alacrity is untouched and 100% alacrity can be reached “easily”. If this is the case, then
- Tides of Time: 3s quickness every 30s (22.5 with perma alacrity) = 13% quickness uptime
- Well of action: 3s quickness every 25s (18.8 with perma alacrity) = 16% quickness uptime
- Time Warp (untraited): 11s quickness every 180s (135 with perma alacrity) = 8% quickness uptime
- Signet of Inspiration can be assumed to simply double Tides of Time and Well of Action (good approximation since they have the same cooldown and you have already stacked quickness thanks to TW so you don’t loose duration while casting the signet): 26% quickness uptime.
So here we go, even without CS, you get 63% quickness uptime, which will be higher with boon duration and can reach 100%. And with nerfed CS, you can get an additional ToD + WoA + SoI for another 12s quickness every untraited 90s (68s with alacrity) for an extra 18% quickness uptime.
On another note, with similar calculations, I saw that perma alacrity is also possible (with 2 iAvenger, even easier with 3) without any CS, and therefore definitely possible with the “small” nerf suggested.
So no, CS is not needed for PvE viability and also threatens PvP balance and therefore should be nerfed before a-net decides to instead nerf core mesmer even more.
This is kittening and this is the clueless math i ever read about the quickness.
Do you realize that there are raid and open event where you have more than 5 people in party?
Do you know that already now with cs working on elite a sincle chrono CANNOT bring 100% quickness on 10 men enviroment?
Have you have realized that the actual quick uptime (now around 80% on average on 10 men enviroment with 100 boon duration) without cs would drop to 40%? And the same will be for alacrity?
The funny thing is:
1- This game pvp community is 1/1000 of pve community and the “pro” part are the same 20 guys that can’t deal anything on a serious competitive game.
2- If you put togheter whole pvp pro team, the dev balance team and people who follow leagues on twitch you won’t reach the amount of people that is raiding just on monday. And raiding is the less joined pve content.
The Best solution should be —> split pvp balance from pve balance, so than, finally we will stop to have that 20 pretend-to-be-pro-pvper (that usually know anything about pve) to ask suicidial pve thing.
If anet don’t split pve from pvp balance skill just nerf moa and portal in pvp and let cs as it is on pve so than, the rest of 99% of the gw2 community (who don’t care about pvp, about pretend to be pro pvpers, and about you) can keep enjoy the only viable raid build we have.
And pls, be sure to know what you are speaking about before writing next.
FREE PYRO
CS? Continuum Split/Shift?
I rarely do PvP or Hard PvE, unless it’s organized.
well it is pretty much a no brainier that pretty much every other mmo has better pve than gw, the only thing going for gw pve is that it is for 99% of it mechanics you would find less challenging than the easy mode dungeons offered by those other mmo’s and as such easily accessible for the masses to manage. in short the only thing gw actually offers the game market that it comes out on top with is WvW and the PvP combat.
CS? Continuum Split/Shift?
yeah,
that’s the second thread in few days where someone i.am.pvper ask to remove cs from chrono class, or, either, to make cs to no work on elite skill cauze ez.spot.pvp.mesmer.op.
While i could agree pvp condie chrono shatter could need some adjustement over moa (mainly) and portal i totally don’t get how a brained people can ask to remove cs from whole game rather than just split pve from pvp balance, or just even nerfing\changing moa and\or portal.
No.
The smallest clueless pvp gw2 community ask to remove the main (and only) base mechanics added from elite spec of a class played from hundreads more people than them in pve, without caring of the effect of the change in pve, or, that is even worst, writing false statement as the Op, where he act as he know, while it’s clear he has no idea of what is happening in raid right now.
To understand how small and self related is pvp community in this game it’s enough to go on youtube and check that a single pvers as goku got more views than the last esl final.
But they don’t care.
They can even achieve the chrono nerf in pvp leaving chrono untounched in pve.
But they don’t care.
No.
They want to remove cs from the whole game or, either, make it to not work on elite, cause weird math, self related though, and the oldies i.am.pvper.i.know.dev.i.am.pro.so.i.am.right
The day anet would split pve balance from pvp balance, so than we can finally stop to read thing like this will be the best day of gw2 life
FREE PYRO
(edited by aelfwe.4239)
well it is pretty much a no brainier that pretty much every other mmo has better pve than gw, the only thing going for gw pve is that it is for 99% of it mechanics you would find less challenging than the easy mode dungeons offered by those other mmo’s and as such easily accessible for the masses to manage. in short the only thing gw actually offers the game market that it comes out on top with is WvW and the PvP combat.
The difference is that for every people who has bought this game to pvp there are xx people who has bought this game for pve, as media viewers show up.
The difference is that people who pve in this game, as me, knows that pve here is easyer than other game and they are not acting like this is the best challenging pve ever, while pvpers, as you, keep to think that the top skill are in wvw or pvp.
I soloed both season to legendary with a win rate of 70%+ and it take me less effort than raiding, but ofc, the top skill in this game is on pvp.
In fact all top world skillest player come to pvp in gw2 and not cs, lol or dota, because to play a condie chrono, a chrono bunker, a signet necro, or in the past, a spirit ranger, a dumfire necro, a turret engie, an hambow warrior requires lot of skill that top out the ability of the player a lot more than soloing a fotm 100.
Ofc you right.
And, last but not least, the option to nerf the chrono in pvp leaving untouched the chrono in pve (or split the pve and pvp balance) is not even take into consideration.
Why to care about that? Pve should not exist cause easyer than other game, right?
What about pvp being easyer than other game then? is it? isnt it? does lol required more skill to dade or gw to frostball? should pvp not been taken into consideration on balance cause less competitive than other game?
I wonder you’d disagree…
but then how you come to ask the same for pve cause “easyer than other game”?
It’s wondefull how pvper logic fail in this game.
EDIT: about the “wvw” top skilling, well.. pirate shipping rev 2 2 2 2 2 the oldie mele train sentinel guard 1 1 1 1 1 cough well, nothing to say about that. Or the “roaming” maybe? If you’d like to explain me where the “roaming” is in this game, i’ll be, as a 4 years daoc player, really interested, cause it seem to me we’re speaking of a different gw2
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(edited by aelfwe.4239)
that’s the second thread in few days where someone i.am.pvper ask to remove cs from chrono class, or, either, to make cs to no work on elite skill cauze ez.spot.pvp.mesmer.op.
Not everyone asking to remove CS is a PvPer or is asking for it to simply be removed without buffs or changes in other areas.
While I mainly WvW and PvE I would hate for all Mesmer utilities and abilities to be balanced around CS which is what they will have to do when they make changes to things we don’t use. Today it’s moa that’s the problem, what will it be tomorrow? Double domination signet? Mimic letting you triple/quad cast?
I for one would like to see the removal of CS but make improved alacrity be a 50% duration to all alacrity, even that to allies. Then have a rework of the phantasm mechanic, you know your stuff so you know how hilariously pathetic base Mesmer is in PvE. Wouldn’t it be good to have an actual competitive DPS build and to shatter because you want to shatter not because your cool downs allow you to resummon your phantasms asap so you don’t lose DPS?
Seems like it would be much simpler to delete PvP.
Agreed. I mean I’d keep the instance around, good shortcut to LA, but other than that… get it over with and get rid of it, if you try to please everyone you’ll just end up pleasing no one.
I think you mean PvP has suffered enough at the hands of PvE. There is nothing challenging in PvE that requires fine tuned balance.
The same is actually true for PvP. Given 9 classes and >1000 effective classes, “balance” in a 5v5 format is beyond utopian. As a result, the need for balance just flat out isn’t there. Rather base existing considerations on the actually played game modes of PvE (majority), just taking into account WvW and PvP (minority) for decision-making in a 50/50 scenario.
And in those cases, WvW shares the underlying combat mechanic of mass combat with the majority of PvE. Something sPvP doesn’t.
Easy to decide what to use, then.
(edited by Carighan.6758)
Not everyone asking to remove CS is a PvPer or is asking for it to simply be removed without buffs or changes in other areas.
While I mainly WvW and PvE I would hate for all Mesmer utilities and abilities to be balanced around CS which is what they will have to do when they make changes to things we don’t use. Today it’s moa that’s the problem, what will it be tomorrow? Double domination signet? Mimic letting you triple/quad cast?
I for one would like to see the removal of CS but make improved alacrity be a 50% duration to all alacrity, even that to allies. Then have a rework of the phantasm mechanic, you know your stuff so you know how hilariously pathetic base Mesmer is in PvE. Wouldn’t it be good to have an actual competitive DPS build and to shatter because you want to shatter not because your cool downs allow you to resummon your phantasms asap so you don’t lose DPS?
The huge majority of people asking to remove cs comes out from pvp, it’s enough to read the threads we had where around the 90% of people asking for it were speaking from a pvp perspecive.
Then there are the last 10% asking to remove cs , who are, like you, the “idealist” group.
What’s the idealist group?
The idealist group are those who, for some reason or another, do not enjoy the elite mesmer class.
Why they idealist group don’t like chrono elite spec?
Usually, for the reason you told: They want to dps.as.an.ele.with.chrono and they hate the support role that the chrono elite specialization give us.
k, let’s write it again: dps.as.an.ele.with.chrono
Here is where the logic failure start to show off.
A logic man would ask you… Since chrono is a “support” specialization and since you want to dps, why do you play a chrono and not an ele, or maybe a thief?
For example, when i want to fill the dps role i usually reroll thief rather than complain about chrono… But it hardly happens, because i’m really happy about the chrono state in pve and i enjoy my buffing role with it, in both raid and istance.
You know, if this would be a standard mmo it would sound like “why i cannot dps with my healer? dev has to totally change my healer class mechanics to make it dps because i don’t like to heal and i want to dps with my healer class!”.
It sound wierd right?
But somehow gw2 is different, we had manifesto here, and it spoke of no roles, and mesmer has always been a really particular class, so i can understand your will of playing it regardless all and your complaining about being forced on a support role.
I’m not joking, i understand your desire to play mesmer as a dps.
But still, there’s an heavy logic failure here too.
Chrono is the first specialization class added to mesmer and anet said they will add other ones
So if we start from this statement, the logic solution to your will.to.dps.as.a.mesmer and my.having.fun.supporting.with.a.mesmer should be:
The next specialization added to mesmer should be a pure dps specialization role, so than people will be able to chose between goin support (chrono) or going dps (the new specialization) and we got the improvement to have 2 viable roles (and build) rather than the one we have now, making everyone happy
Remember that it was planned on the addition of new specializations that you won’t be able to build in 2 different specialization at same time, you will go chrono OR you will go the next spec.
When you judge the chronomancer specialization you have to use this perspective.
If anet is goin to add new specialization, and you won’t be able to spec in 2 at the same time, then the specializations of the single class have to fill different roles to improve build diversetity.
Example: chrono —> support, next mesmer elite spec --> dps
druid —> support\heal, next ranger elite spec --> dps
Daredevil —> dps\evade, next thief elite spec --> support
and so on…
Here is were logic brings.
Where does your request bring?
It brings where “i don’t like chrono buff role, i don’t want to wait next spec (or i don’t believe anet will never add another spec) so i ask to totally revert chrono from support to a dps role NOW, so i’m happy”.
gg! and what about other people enjoying chrono for what it is rather than for what you’d want it to be?
That’s not balance, that’s personal taste, and, as a personal taste you hit against other people personal tastes like me and everyone else who actually ENJOY the support role of chrono.
And here we go, if anet would even listen you and totally rework the chrono elite to be a dps elite from a support elite then the next elite they add will have to be a support elite to improve build diversity (obviusely, since having 2 dps elite bring to have just 1 viable build, the one who does more dmg).
So why to accomplish your taste anet should rework a support role to a dps role and then should create another support role while they can just add a new dps role on next elite specialization?
You know, in this way, where the bigger part of people asking for cs remove asking come from pvp, the smallest community of the game, joining them deal to make yourself to be the minority of the minority.
Why do that when you can just ask for the next spec to be a pure dps role without touching chrono? If you’d ask that you would have every single chrono, me too, on your side, because it’s a legit request.
Instead killing chrono support role isnt.
FREE PYRO
(edited by aelfwe.4239)
While I mainly WvW and PvE I would hate for all Mesmer utilities and abilities to be balanced around CS which is what they will have to do when they make changes to things we don’t use. Today it’s moa that’s the problem, what will it be tomorrow? Double domination signet? Mimic letting you triple/quad cast?
Forgot this:
I dealt to legend in pvp and killed every boss in the 1st week of their release till now without having ever putted mimic once on my skill bar.
The only use i find on mimic is on harpy fotm jp when im pugging without any other class having a single reflect.
About signet of domination it’s on pvp metabuild, its the less important skill on your utility bar (you want portal and you want blink) and its no use on pve.
You can sleep with no nightmare about them being op with cs, we already have cs and they aren’t op, today or tomorrow.
Do not look for false Opness of an imaginary future to lf a reason to remove cs.
The only issue we have are moa and portal, and just on pvp, change portal cd and moa duration /solved.
FREE PYRO
Wow, this has become a heated debate. So let’s make a few things clear.
- I do not ask to remove CS from the game. I just showed that even if we did, you could maintain alacrity and quickness to a 5 man group. I personally only ask elites not to work in CS (and I would ideally like only 4 shatters for chronomancer, CS replacing distorsion and the 3 other shatters reworked to fit the chronomancer theme with for example alacrity and quickness support built in)
- I did not suggest splitting PvE/PvP balance because we know this is something a-net is reluctant to implement. And in any case, I think I proved you don’t need to
- nerfing Moa is not a good way to go because it continues to increase the gap between core mesmer and chronomancer. This is precisely what I want to avoid: as apharma says, I don’t want cooldowns to be balanced around CS.
Not everyone asking to remove CS is a PvPer or is asking for it to simply be removed without buffs or changes in other areas.
While I mainly WvW and PvE I would hate for all Mesmer utilities and abilities to be balanced around CS which is what they will have to do when they make changes to things we don’t use. Today it’s moa that’s the problem, what will it be tomorrow? Double domination signet? Mimic letting you triple/quad cast?
I for one would like to see the removal of CS but make improved alacrity be a 50% duration to all alacrity, even that to allies. Then have a rework of the phantasm mechanic, you know your stuff so you know how hilariously pathetic base Mesmer is in PvE. Wouldn’t it be good to have an actual competitive DPS build and to shatter because you want to shatter not because your cool downs allow you to resummon your phantasms asap so you don’t lose DPS?
The huge majority of people asking to remove cs comes out from pvp, it’s enough to read the threads we had where around the 90% of people asking for it were speaking from a pvp perspecive.
Then there are the last 10% asking to remove cs , who are, like you, the “idealist” group.
What’s the idealist group?
The idealist group are those who, for some reason or another, do not enjoy the elite mesmer class.
Why they idealist group don’t like chrono elite spec?
Usually, for the reason you told: They want to dps.as.an.ele.with.chrono and they hate the support role that the chrono elite specialization give us.
k, let’s write it again: dps.as.an.ele.with.chrono
Here is where the logic failure start to show off.
A logic man would ask you… Since chrono is a “support” specialization and since you want to dps, why do you play a chrono and not an ele, or maybe a thief?
For example, when i want to fill the dps role i usually reroll thief rather than complain about chrono… But it hardly happens, because i’m really happy about the chrono state in pve and i enjoy my buffing role with it, in both raid and istance.
You know, if this would be a standard mmo it would sound like “why i cannot dps with my healer? dev has to totally change my healer class mechanics to make it dps because i don’t like to heal and i want to dps with my healer class!”.
It sound wierd right?
But somehow gw2 is different, we had manifesto here, and it spoke of no roles, and mesmer has always been a really particular class, so i can understand your will of playing it regardless all and your complaining about being forced on a support role.
I’m not joking, i understand your desire to play mesmer as a dps.
But still, there’s an heavy logic failure here too.
Chrono is the first specialization class added to mesmer and anet said they will add other ones
So if we start from this statement, the logic solution to your will.to.dps.as.a.mesmer and my.having.fun.supporting.with.a.mesmer should be:
The next specialization added to mesmer should be a pure dps specialization role, so than people will be able to chose between goin support (chrono) or going dps (the new specialization) and we got the improvement to have 2 viable roles (and build) rather than the one we have now, making everyone happy
Remember that it was planned on the addition of new specializations that you won’t be able to build in 2 different specialization at same time, you will go chrono OR you will go the next spec.
When you judge the chronomancer specialization you have to use this perspective.
If anet is goin to add new specialization, and you won’t be able to spec in 2 at the same time, then the specializations of the single class have to fill different roles to improve build diversetity.
Example: chrono —> support, next mesmer elite spec --> dps
druid —> support\heal, next ranger elite spec --> dps
Daredevil —> dps\evade, next thief elite spec --> supportand so on…
Here is were logic brings.
Where does your request bring?
It brings where “i don’t like chrono buff role, i don’t want to wait next spec (or i don’t believe anet will never add another spec) so i ask to totally revert chrono from support to a dps role NOW, so i’m happy”.
gg! and what about other people enjoying chrono for what it is rather than for what you’d want it to be?
That’s not balance, that’s personal taste, and, as a personal taste you hit against other people personal tastes like me and everyone else who actually ENJOY the support role of chrono.
And here we go, if anet would even listen you and totally rework the chrono elite to be a dps elite from a support elite then the next elite they add will have to be a support elite to improve build diversity (obviusely, since having 2 dps elite bring to have just 1 viable build, the one who does more dmg).
So why to accomplish your taste anet should rework a support role to a dps role and then should create another support role while they can just add a new dps role on next elite specialization?
You know, in this way, where the bigger part of people asking for cs remove asking come from pvp, the smallest community of the game, joining them deal to make yourself to be the minority of the minority.
Why do that when you can just ask for the next spec to be a pure dps role without touching chrono? If you’d ask that you would have every single chrono, me too, on your side, because it’s a legit request.
Instead killing chrono support role isnt.
Everything sounds good except you forgot one key part. That healer or support role can respec for dps. Since we went into the trinity department what’s stopping that priest to become shadow and dps? Being pigeonholed into only support is really stale. Ultimately your right. Switch classes or play a different game. Maybe we as a community are asking all the wrong questions. If this isn’t the game for you then find something else.
Excuse me?
We do use CS for double gravity well for cc and alacrity
We do use CS for double time warp
They are effective in burst time frame
You calculation show optimum build for support but for some other are hybrid build meaning they are not optimise for boon duration but they add in some survival for their buld
Your trouble with moa is getting out of hand
No. PvE has suffered enough at the hands of PvP.
I think you mean PvP has suffered enough at the hands of PvE. There is nothing challenging in PvE that requires fine tuned balance.
Oh, please, like your gimmick use of rock/paper/scissor builds makes your format any better.
Your garbage format cannot be balanced. It’s like a wheel that goes on and on, with the people losing to x build/class on a 1v1 whining that’s too strong, and then it’s nerfed and the next meta build comes in and the pvp crybabies have it nerfed as well.
While all PvE needs is to balance DPS numbers and spread utility. It can actually be balanced since it’s not centered around crying over a lost duel or the fact that a roamer could 1v2 you and your buddy.
Wow, this has become a heated debate. So let’s make a few things clear.
- I do not ask to remove CS from the game. I just showed that even if we did, you could maintain alacrity and quickness to a 5 man group. I personally only ask elites not to work in CS (and I would ideally like only 4 shatters for chronomancer, CS replacing distorsion and the 3 other shatters reworked to fit the chronomancer theme with for example alacrity and quickness support built in)
- I did not suggest splitting PvE/PvP balance because we know this is something a-net is reluctant to implement. And in any case, I think I proved you don’t need to
- nerfing Moa is not a good way to go because it continues to increase the gap between core mesmer and chronomancer. This is precisely what I want to avoid: as apharma says, I don’t want cooldowns to be balanced around CS.
1- Then rename you thread title to “5 men pve content” rather than claiming “pve viable” since pve is not just 5 men content.
After that redo your math, they’re wrong.
You start from the assumption we can maintain 100% alacrity uptime on a 5 men party, that is, indeed, impossible right now. Alacrity is a buff, not a boon, and it’s not affected from boon duration.
If you have 3 well and soi from when you use cs the 1st to when you use cs the 2nd time, you will cast the 3 wells 3 times each one.
That bring up to 9 wells that gives 2 sec of alacrity each (atwew) for a total of 18 sec of alacrity.
Since 3 of that 9 wells will be wor you will have additional 15 sec of alacrity that bring up to 23 sec of alacrity over 59 sec (cs cd with illusion) or 67 sec (cs without illusion).
Now let’s say you have an average of 1 avenger up from the start you will get another 14 sec of alacrity between it and chronphantasma you will get to:
- 37 sec of alacrity over 59 sec (with illusion) aka 60%
- 37 sec of alacrity over 67 sec (without illusion) aka 55%
Not exactly the 100%.
But keep on, to bring 100% of quick on a 5 men party now you dont need soi, so you can bring 3 wells +1 utilty (example feedback for fotm). After the nerf you have to bring always soi, everywhere, that means where you have to bring to feedback (mathias? sloth? fotm? ever heard of them?) you have to leave out recall for an addiational lost of 25% alacrity uptime (that drop to 35%) that end up to additional quick loss.
And we’re speaking of 5 men enviroment. The 10 men share chrono will be hitted twice or even worst to the point that will be clueless to have a single chrono in party with rev.
2- You proved me you are unable to do math and that your logic fail to the point that you are telling me “since anet cannot do the right thing (split balance) and since you don’t like to balance cd on cs (an actual mechanic of the game) then we should halve the support of a support class, because your wrong math show up it doesnt change anything in a 5 men enviroment” wow, i’m amazed O.O
3- the core mesmer is dead the day of hot release, as every core class. This is what happens in every game when they release an xpac with specialization class. That’s cause software house do xpac to sell them, and its kinda impossible to sell an xpac that offer worst specializations than core base classes. Deal with reality and ask for another specializations to fill different roles with mesmer.
FREE PYRO
(edited by aelfwe.4239)
1- Then rename you thread title to “5 men pve content” rather than claiming “pve viable” since pve is not just 5 men content.
Fun thing, 10 man content is 2 times 5 man content. The DPS increase that 1 mesmer brings to 4 members means that it is also viable in 10 man content. Actually if you cannot share alacrity and quickness to the 5 members not in your party, that means that you may actually need a second chrono.
From what I understand anyway, since you cannot change party anymore to share your boons to both, only shield 5 will affect all members and not having CS-time warp will change nothing to that.
After that redo your math, they’re wrong.
Simplistic but not wrong
You start from the assumption we can maintain 100% alacrity uptime on a 5 men party, that is, indeed, impossible right now. Alacrity is a buff, not a boon, and it’s not affected from boon duration.
I only used boon duration for quickness, I am not completely ignorant.
If you have 3 well and soi from when you use cs the 1st to when you use cs the 2nd time, you will cast the 3 wells 3 times each one.
That bring up to 9 wells that gives 2 sec of alacrity each (atwew) for a total of 18 sec of alacrity.
Since 3 of that 9 wells will be wor you will have additional 15 sec of alacrity that bring up to 23 sec of alacrity over 59 sec (cs cd with illusion) or 67 sec (cs without illusion).
18 + 15 = 23… good start.
Now let’s say you have an average of 1 avenger up from the start you will get another 14 sec of alacrity between it and chronphantasma you will get to:
- 37 sec of alacrity over 59 sec (with illusion) aka 60%
- 37 sec of alacrity over 67 sec (without illusion) aka 55%
Avenger is 2s alacrity every 8s. That means a bit more than 7 attacks in 59s, a bit more than 8 in 67s. Also I specifically said 2 avengers.
33+14x2 =61 every 59s
33+16x2 =65 every 67s
not too far from the claimed 100% I think.
But keep on, to bring 100% of quick on a 5 men party now you dont need soi, so you can bring 3 wells +1 utilty (example feedback for fotm). After the nerf you have to bring always soi, everywhere, that means where you have to bring to feedback (mathias? sloth? fotm? ever heard of them?) you have to leave out recall for an addiational lost of 25% alacrity uptime (that drop to 35%) that end up to additional quick loss.
So you are saying that you cannot bring the highest DPS increase possible of all professions AND reflects at the same time…
You do realize that I am already not overly happy in principle of having a class like chronomancer being essentially mandatory in all organized PvE content, so what you are telling me is for me one good reason why we should nerf CS “FOR THE SAKE OF PVE BALANCE”.
2- You proved me you are unable to do math
again 15+18 = 23…
your logic fail to the point that you are telling me “since anet cannot do the right thing (split balance) and since you don’t like to balance cd on cs (an actual mechanic of the game) then we should halve the support of a support class, because your wrong math show up it doesnt change anything in a 5 men enviroment” wow, i’m amazed O.O
Yes, a-net refuses to split balance. And I see this mentioned so often as the white knight of balancing. Fun facts, most if not all balance problems can be solved without separating balance. Yes, separating make things “easier” but if a-net refuses to do so, I won’t complain because I really think it is not needed.
3- the core mesmer is dead the day of hot release, as every core class. This is what happens in every game when they release an xpac with specialization class. That’s cause software house do xpac to sell them, and its kinda impossible to sell an xpac that offer worst specializations than core base classes. Deal with reality and ask for another specializations to fill different roles with mesmer.
I am fine with chronomancer being a support class. Actually I love that chronomancer is a support class. Don’t try to interpret my thoughts
If you watched Paul’s stream a few days ago, he was talking about how a few PvPers were attending a class balance meeting and he was brainstorming plausible balance passes you could make onto each class while not destroying PvE. I didn’t see his balance ideas for mesmers, but the few he did brainstorm sounded reasonable.
That said, I can think of few ways to balance out mesmers in PvP that hopefully won’t wreck PvE.
1. Delete Mercenary’s amulet. It’s a lazy, easy, hotfix. Force mesmers into more squishy amulets.
2. Change Moa somehow. Reduce Moa’s duration (shouldn’t affect PvE by too much), give Moa form the ability to jump (better kiting in PvP), and maybe keep their access to their heal? Not sure about that, but locking someone out of their utilities for 10 seconds is basically a death sentence. Maybe if duration is reduced it will become less of a problem.
3. Nerf Signet of Illusions somehow. It already has a heavy cooldown and cast time, and it’s a roundabout way to nerf Chronos in general. Make it so clones have half as much health as before? In PvE clones already take reduced damage so people running it shouldn’t see as huge of an issue, but it’d be easier for players to cleave them out in PvP.
Though even if you take these into account, they’re more like shaves than actual nerfs.
Fun thing, 10 man content is 2 times 5 man content. The DPS increase that 1 mesmer brings to 4 members means that it is also viable in 10 man content. Actually if you cannot share alacrity and quickness to the 5 members not in your party, that means that you may actually need a second chrono.
From what I understand anyway, since you cannot change party anymore to share your boons to both, only shield 5 will affect all members and not having CS-time warp will change nothing to that.
Fun thing is that you have no clue of what you speaking off, and you are not even try to take some information to hide your ignorance.
So actually, since switch party change the more common setup in raid are:
party A: 1 ps 1 druid 2 x
party B: 1 ps 1 druid 2 x
Party C: 1 rev 1 chrono
or either
Party A: 1 ps 6/7x
Party B: 1 rev 1 chrono
Party C: druid (if not in party A)
Sometimes the party C can be just the chrono with commander gear.
As you can see this is how you can spread out buff to whole raid.
The 2 chrono\2 party raid setup is something really rare that you are actually doin only when you want to give chronos some additional role in the fight (example, reflect on sloth and mathias) without losing on quick\alacrity uptime due to having to take fb.
So what’s the issue about what your saying in the OP?
Now a single chrono can cover WITHOUT soi a full party of 5 men (so you have 1 free utility).
Now a single chrono can cover with around 80% of quick\alacrity a raid but WITH SOI (meta).
As soon as we nerf cs as you ask, making it not work on elite, we will have that:
-to achieve the same quick\alacrity uptime on a 5 men enviroment you need to go WITH soi and 2 well (so you have no free utility)
-you wont be able to achieve the same result as now with a single chrono for raid because in raid with 1 only chrono soi is ALREADY mandatory (so you can’t cover the lack of 2xtw putting soi in the build as you do in 5 men party).
Here is where your nerf hit hard, because on actual meta in the raid enviroment the single chrono quickness uptime will be halved from actual 80%.
In raid the only wat to achieve the same result is to have 2 chrono, and even in that way chrono will lose in versability because to achieve the same result as a single chrono as it’s now, they will have to get 2 well and 1 soi without having any additional utility free slot as they have now.
Result?
Now we are buffbot that can bring some reflect role in fotm or raid (when we have 2 chrono —> sloth and mathias) or even go for a raid share res build (with 2 chrono) and so on.
No.
Gratz to the change you are suggesting we will always have 2 well and soi just buffing quick always, on every content.
A really good step on GG!
And this if we’re lucky, because what is actually holding chrono in meta is the fact that quick+alacrity bring more dmg to raid than the difference of dmg between an ele (40k) and a chrono (12k on the support role you speaking off).
You want to halve our quick in a raid enviroment, do you really think that thing will last the same cause 1 raid is 2 party of 5?
Raid, is 2 party of 5 when you need them, when you don’t need them it’s 1 party of 7men and there your quick uptime will drop of a 30% and ele will be toward us, without the need to even take a 2nd ps war.
And why you want to risk this?
To not nerf or change a skill that should never exist from day 1 as moa?????
We can just nerf its duration or change it with a good elite who is not an iwin elite.
But no, lol, let’s risk to ruin life to pvers chrono, reduce our viability and the few option we have to hold moa.
Lol, i am sorry that this is your opinion, but it’s freaking weird.
FREE PYRO
(edited by aelfwe.4239)
stuff
May I ask a question: do you even want the PvE of this game to be balanced?
What you are saying is you want 1 mesmer to be able to buff 9 other players with about 80% uptime of quickness and alacrity? Do you realize why this is not a good idea?
1 mesmer buffing 4 players is already the highest DPS buff of all professions, but you want to be able to buff 9 players????
You see that is why I say PvP is definitely more sensitive to balance than PvE, because PvE mesmer is currently beyond OP (whether you like or not the buffing role) and you complain about a change which will reduce this OPness by a fairly small amount.
So thanks for your input, it made me realize that I should definitely change the title of this thread to “CS should be nerfed for PvE balance”.
@aelfwe
I’m not going to read all that, once I got to you’re assumption of dps like an ele I didn’t bother with the rest of the hyperbole.
I don’t want chrono to DPS like an ele, I want the class (base Mesmer or chrono) to have the option to have a dps build that isn’t a steaming pile of rubbish. We do not have that option at all, not even close, it is absolute worst DPS of everything you can bring.
I would like to have the option to bring a Mesmer for the DPS and the utility it brings in reflects, boon rip, condi clear, stab etc with competitive DPS to that in a similar role (hint, guard) but that’s the thing, Mesmer (base or chrono) doesn’t, it doesn’t even come close.
As for the little snippet I saw about mimic, I don’t care what you use or don’t use, you completely missed the point. I know you’re not a native English speaker so I’ll clarify it below.
Today people are complaining about Moa, tomorrow they will complain about double something else. It means you cannot balance by cool down, something ANet do too much of and it will stop base Mesmer and future elite specs being decent because everything has to be balanced around doubling its effect.
May I ask a question: do you even want the PvE of this game to be balanced?
Pve it’s in a good state like now, there are 3 class over 10 that are mandatory or nearly there (chrono, druid, ps) and all other class are viable.
We do both wings twice for week using, for the last 7 spot, every single class of the game (ele\guard\thief\engie\necro\rev).
In 5 men content it’s even better: with the power creep we have you can go with the 5 class you prefer.
However, since you wrote:
Fun thing, 10 man content is 2 times 5 man content. The DPS increase that 1 mesmer brings to 4 members means that it is also viable in 10 man content. Actually if you cannot share alacrity and quickness to the 5 members not in your party, that means that you may actually need a second chrono.
From what I understand anyway, since you cannot change party anymore to share your boons to both, only shield 5 will affect all members and not having CS-time warp will change nothing to that.
The fact itself you are even not sure even about the formations used in raid make It clear you have no idea of the content you are asking nerf for.
It’s even clear that, in the best scenario, you have not putted a feet in a raid from 2 balance patch ago.
So asking for a nerf of a content you never been in makes you last sentence
So thanks for your input, it made me realize that I should definitely change the title of this thread to “CS should be nerfed for PvE balance”.
something to have piety about, more than something to take into consideration for the health of the game.
@apharma
@aelfwe
I’m not going to read all that, once I got to you’re assumption of dps like an ele I didn’t bother with the rest of the hyperbole.
Don’t you get that replying to something you have not read is stupid thing?
If you’d read what i wrote you’d know, after the hyperbole, i suggest a solution to improve mesmer dmg without destroying chrono, allowing for more build diversity splitted on different roles.
But you haven’t read it, you have just repeated your mantra “chrono nerf, moar mesmer dmg!!!” you are continuosly repeating since months.
That’s because, as a proud member of the idealist group you don’t care about “reason”, you just care about your idea for itself.
So..
We have 1 guy willing to nerf cs, asking nerf even for a pve content where he has not been in since 2 balance patch ago and another guy asking for cs nerf who reply to stuff he has not read, with the assumption that if people disagree it’s surely cause they have not understand him (because obviusely not-being a native english speaker makes you dumb, while replying to stuff you refuse to read make you wise)
And why that?
To not nerf moa duration in pvp, an “i.win” skill that has barely no use in pve while it’s not even accepted for a duel, in pvp.
Because, as everyone know, moa is an healthly skill for the game, who has not been an issue on pvp since game release…
Wow guys, it make me sad i don’t have a software house to hire you both in balace team
FREE PYRO
(edited by aelfwe.4239)
Pve it’s in a good state like now, there are 3 class over 10 that are mandatory or nearly there (chrono, druid, ps) and all other class are viable.
If 3 classes are mandatory, then it is not balanced. Simple as that.
Fun thing, 10 man content is 2 times 5 man content. The DPS increase that 1 mesmer brings to 4 members means that it is also viable in 10 man content. Actually if you cannot share alacrity and quickness to the 5 members not in your party, that means that you may actually need a second chrono.
From what I understand anyway, since you cannot change party anymore to share your boons to both, only shield 5 will affect all members and not having CS-time warp will change nothing to that.The fact itself you are even not sure even about the formations used in raid make It clear you have no idea of the content you are asking nerf for.
It’s even clear that, in the best scenario, you have not putted a feet in a raid from 2 balance patch ago.
So asking for a nerf of a content you never been in makes you last sentence
I have never been in raid period. I Don’t deny it. Which is why my last sentence started with “if I understand well”: I was not sure of this point and I was not pretending I was. But that does not make me wrong in the first point and thus my conclusion. My point was to say that since a chrono provides an insane DPS boost to 4 other people, even if you provide STRICTLY NOTHING to the other 5 your place in raid is guaranteed. And you want to make sure you extend this insane boost to the other 5… Anyone who wants balance across all game modes (like me) thinks this should not happen.
So thanks for your input, it made me realize that I should definitely change the title of this thread to “CS should be nerfed for PvE balance”.
something to have piety about, more than something to take into consideration for the health of the game.
For the health of the game, no one should have a DPS contribution more than 50% higher than the others. Chrono in raids is way beyond that!
(edited by Silverkey.2078)
Anet should make PvP and PvE traits and skills totally independent with different CDs, base damage, etc.). Problem solved!
Oh wait, that makes too much sense.
If 3 classes are mandatory, then it is not balanced. Simple as that.
Lol. I admit the “simple as that” made me laugh xD
Regardless i’ve wrote “mandatory or nearly there” that is not exactly the same thing as litterally mandatory (people has already done every boss in 5\6, or with green items) so you can even without chrono, ps or druid if you will too..
I’m just wondering where you get that absurd rule xD
Have you ever played any other mmo?
On a pve side a game is balanced when every class is viable on every pve content.
And since 2 balance patch ago we have the best pve balance since gw2 release, since every class is viable or invited in raid.
I’m sorry you have a different option but if you expect to have all classes to be exactly the same you are expecting something that has never happened on every single mmo ever released.
So if you want to use that argument to ask a pve chrono nerf, keep go! It’s like asking to
I have never been in raid period. I Don’t deny it. Which is why my last sentence started with “if I understand well”: I was not sure of this point and I was not pretending I was. But that does not make me wrong in the first point and thus my conclusion. <cut>
Wait wait wait.
So basically you telling me that you are asking a nerf for a class in a content you don’t know, but that doesn’t make you wrong?
Err, well, that makes you ignorant, and expressing opinion over unknowed stuff isnt the smart thing ever..
For the health of the game, no one should have a DPS contribution more than 50% higher than the others. Chrono in raids is way beyond that!
In fact i want ANOTHER elite specialization for mesmer focused on dps, so than, when i join raid i can chose between goin support (chrono) or dps (the second specialization).
Your being pointless it’s not about willing to have a dps viable build on mesmer.
You are pointless because you ask it at price to kill the support role of the chrono.
FREE PYRO
So if you want to use that argument to ask a pve chrono nerf, keep go! It’s like asking to
My point is as simple as that: CS probably needs a nerf for PvP because it is a skill which makes thing absolutely unbalanceable. If you nerf Moa instead, then you nerf core mesmer even more compared to chronomancer.
Then people argued that PvE mesmer would suffer from that. My point was to prove that in a 5-man content, a CS nerf does not prevent you from reaching 100% alacrity and quickness. Then people argued that it prevents you from reaching it in 10 man content, and I said that you should NOT reach it in 10 man content or your DPS contribution is simply way superior to other classes.
So summary, if you nerf CS
- PvP is more balanced
- 5-man PvE is identical
- 10-man PvE is more balanced
So yes, good nerf!
So basically you telling me that you are asking a nerf for a class in a content you don’t know, but that doesn’t make you wrong?
Err, well, that makes you ignorant, and expressing opinion over unknowed stuff isnt the smart thing ever..
I don’t play it, but I followed discussions on the forum and I can do some maths, so overall, I know what impact my suggestion will have. Fun fact, irl I am a theoretician, meaning that I never do any experiment myself but just based on theory I can still give valuable results. Same thing here, I don’t need to try it to know what is the DPS contribution of mesmer.
For the health of the game, no one should have a DPS contribution more than 50% higher than the others. Chrono in raids is way beyond that!
In fact i want ANOTHER elite specialization for mesmer focused on dps, so than, when i join raid i can chose between goin support (chrono) or dps (the second specialization).
Your being pointless it’s not about willing to have a dps viable build on mesmer.
You are pointless because you ask it at price to kill the support role of the chrono.
You misunderstood me here. I am saying that the DPS contribution (meaning sum of personal DPS + DPS increase of other players thanks to your support) of chronomancer is too high in a raid, not that I want a high personal DPS.
I am fine with chrono being a support-mainly specialization. And if the next specialization is a DPS specialization, great! I would personally like if core mesmer could be the DPS specialization (see my phantasm rework for example in my signature), else core mesmer simply does not exist in PvE. But if they choose to have an elite spec instead, that’s good too.
I don’t play it, but I followed discussions on the forum and I can do some maths, so overall, I know what impact my suggestion will have. Fun fact, irl I am a theoretician, meaning that I never do any experiment myself but just based on theory I can still give valuable results. Same thing here, I don’t need to try it to know what is the DPS contribution of mesmer.
What you do need to calculate to claim that even PvE mesmer is more balanced without low CD timewarp is that to compare the dps from two compositions with and without mesmer.
The one you provided in the original post proved literally nothing.
I don’t play it, but I followed discussions on the forum and I can do some maths, so overall, I know what impact my suggestion will have. Fun fact, irl I am a theoretician, meaning that I never do any experiment myself but just based on theory I can still give valuable results. Same thing here, I don’t need to try it to know what is the DPS contribution of mesmer.
What you do need to calculate to claim that even PvE mesmer is more balanced without low CD timewarp is that to compare the dps from two compositions with and without mesmer.
The one you provided in the original post proved literally nothing.
Nope, the original post proved that in a 5-man content, a CS nerf does not result in a loss of quickness/alacrity uptime.
AND, it was already proven (by many) in other threads that 100% alacrity and quickness uptime give chronomancer a top DPS contribution.
And again, if 100% alacrity/quickness on 4 other players is enough to boost your DPS to top, then applying those buff to 9 other players is too much.
I don’t play it, but I followed discussions on the forum and I can do some maths, so overall, I know what impact my suggestion will have. Fun fact, irl I am a theoretician, meaning that I never do any experiment myself but just based on theory I can still give valuable results. Same thing here, I don’t need to try it to know what is the DPS contribution of mesmer.
What you do need to calculate to claim that even PvE mesmer is more balanced without low CD timewarp is that to compare the dps from two compositions with and without mesmer.
The one you provided in the original post proved literally nothing.
Nope, the original post proved that in a 5-man content, a CS nerf does not result in a loss of quickness/alacrity uptime.
AND, it was already proven (by many) in other threads that 100% alacrity and quickness uptime give chronomancer a top DPS contribution.
And again, if 100% alacrity/quickness on 4 other players is enough to boost your DPS to top, then applying those buff to 9 other players is too much.
Okay. Let me ask you the details.
How do you assume SoI simply double the quickness uptime you calculated?
Note the following:
1. Timewarp is applying 1sec quickness every second. If you don’t have boon duration, you will end up with 1 sec of quickness in the end.
2. Tides of time apply 1.5 sec quickness on first touch and 1.5 sec quickness on second. There is like an almost 2 sec interval in between. So you won’t get 3 sec quickness in the end either.
3. SoI has 3/4 sec cast time. With quickness it has 1/2 sec cast time. So you will automatically lose that 1/2 sec quickness time to copy over to allies.
I will tell you my gut feeling is that w/o CS, raid mesmer will still be viable but just barely. Very likely you will be asked to have that super annoying-to-get commander gear to play.
For the longest time, I was also believing PvP balance > all. But recently I have completely changed my mind. It is very clear Anet is not making the PvP game highly competitive. The legend rank is so easy to get that I managed to get there with about 100 games last season. All the meta builds are so easy to play that you can easily swap to by practising for a week. If you truly find some spec OP, you simply go play that one.
On the contrary, PvE content has a larger audience and requires a lot of gear investment. It is much harder to ask players to constantly acquire new set of gear just to keep up with the meta.
Also, once CS is nerfed, a-net may not feel as guilty in increasing our sustained damage which would be positive for both PvE and PvP mesmers.
Right, because in the years before CS even existed at all ANet was quite happy giving us better sustained damage.
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Okay. Let me ask you the details.
How do you assume SoI simply double the quickness uptime you calculated?
Note the following:
1. Timewarp is applying 1sec quickness every second. If you don’t have boon duration, you will end up with 1 sec of quickness in the end.2. Tides of time apply 1.5 sec quickness on first touch and 1.5 sec quickness on second. There is like an almost 2 sec interval in between. So you won’t get 3 sec quickness in the end either.
3. SoI has 3/4 sec cast time. With quickness it has 1/2 sec cast time. So you will automatically lose that 1/2 sec quickness time to copy over to allies.
I will tell you my gut feeling is that w/o CS, raid mesmer will still be viable but just barely. Very likely you will be asked to have that super annoying-to-get commander gear to play.
Well I only assumed SoI doubles tides of time and well of action. The reasoning is simple, at the start of the fight, you cast TW which applies 1s quickness every second (assuming 0 boon duration). This means the first 11s, you have quickness on you. During this time, you also cast well of action + tides of time. Those 6s quickness just add up to what you currently have, you don’t consume them thanks to the already existing quickness from time warp. So SoI effectively double those 6s.
In reality, because of boon duration, time warp will actually also stack a little extra quickness, and thus my calculation actually underestimate the final result.
Then, the second time, when well of action and tides of time are back on CD, you still have the accumulated quickness from before (for this you DO need boon duration, but I did say that) and thus the 6s extra second of quickness DO stack and are multiplied (on top of whatever quickness left from the first casts) by SoI.
So it does work as long as you have enough boon duration to get 100% uptime.
If CS is not removed but just changed to not cast TW, then this is even easier since the second SoI will double not only the current WoA + ToT but also the very high amount accumulated during CS.
So here, reaching 100% duration is even easier.
(edited by Silverkey.2078)
stuff
May I ask a question: do you even want the PvE of this game to be balanced?
What you are saying is you want 1 mesmer to be able to buff 9 other players with about 80% uptime of quickness and alacrity? Do you realize why this is not a good idea?
1 mesmer buffing 4 players is already the highest DPS buff of all professions, but you want to be able to buff 9 players????You see that is why I say PvP is definitely more sensitive to balance than PvE, because PvE mesmer is currently beyond OP (whether you like or not the buffing role) and you complain about a change which will reduce this OPness by a fairly small amount.
So thanks for your input, it made me realize that I should definitely change the title of this thread to “CS should be nerfed for PvE balance”.
PvE mesmer buffs that much because mesmer DPS is garbage by equally as much.
We’re talking like 14k DPS in a world where tempests and revenants and daredevils are doing 30k+ DPS.
So summary, if you nerf CS
- PvP is more balanced
- 5-man PvE is identical
- 10-man PvE is more balanced
So yes, good nerf!
Can you pls stop to act like your kitten assumption are truths?
-nerfing cs doesnt make pvp more balanced than nerfing moa, it’s the opposite. In fact people is asking to nerf moa elite since 3 years old gw2 release like it’s showed from tons of threads. The fact itself you keep speaking of moa like a balanced skill to be saved (10sec i.win skill where you opponent cant do anything but escaping) make laughable your idea of balance.
-5men pve isnt identical, your math are clueless and start from absurd assumptions. Without cs on tw, to get the same quick uptime as now on 5men party, you need to bring soi (that right now isnt) at the price to lose 1 utility slot that is actually used for feedback/portal/etc. Since reflecting and portal are CORE utility for mesmer in 5men pve content your cs nerf would end up to make mesmer to leave out 1 utility between well of recall, well of action or soi, that end up to less quick and alacrity uptime. But you don’t know that, because you don’t know anything about pve. You are just keep repeating some kitten assumption from a perspective of someone who clearly don’t know the content about he is speaking of.
-10 men balance content isnt more balanced, omg. What’s wrong with you? you clearly told that you even don’t know how party are setted up on raid. You clearly told that you even don’t know that chrono in raid stay usually ALONE in party with rev. You clearly told that you even don’t know how chrono deal to share buff in raid right now after party switch change… How the hell can you express an opinion about a thing you admit to not know? How the hell can you even express a judment about the balance of that thing? Cs nerf would kill actual role on raid of chrono, because in that role quickness would be litterally halved. With the result to totally leave out chrono from raid or, either to have to take 2 chrono (the double of now) at the price to leave out another class. In what world putting out a class or doubling the need of that class is a better balance than taking just 1 player with that class? I’m sorry but i think you have some real issue.
I don’t play it, but I followed discussions on the forum and I can do some maths, so overall, I know what impact my suggestion will have. Fun fact, irl I am a theoretician, meaning that I never do any experiment myself but just based on theory I can still give valuable results. Same thing here, I don’t need to try it to know what is the DPS contribution of mesmer.
-Yeah, you never played the content you are speaking about
-Nope, you dont follow any discussion on forum, in fact you even don’t know what are the standard raid party composition of the last 2 months, that, indeed are the start of any balance discussion about raid.
-Nope, you can’t do any math, because without knowing the content, the raid\party composition, the roles and the utility required on a real play of the content you speaking about, you are speaking of something that is so far away from reality to be in the universe of your wondefull fantasy.
-No you don’t know the impact of your suggestion because you even don’t know the stuff you speaking off.
-Yeah you are a theorycian who never experiment his own theory, otw you wont write them without feel shamed.
-The only valuable results you can get from your theory are humiliating yourself.
-Yeah, no need to test stuff like dps, as science clearly showed up in his history, test aren’t required to value a theory.
I think today you made Galileo die for the second time
FREE PYRO
(edited by aelfwe.4239)
Well I only assumed SoI doubles tides of time and well of action. The reasoning is simple, at the start of the fight, you cast TW which applies 1s quickness every second (assuming 0 boon duration). This means the first 11s, you have quickness on you. During this time, you also cast well of action + tides of time. Those 6s quickness just add up to what you currently have, you don’t consume them thanks to the already existing quickness from time warp. So SoI effectively double those 6s.
In reality, because of boon duration, time warp will actually also stack a little extra quickness, and thus my calculation actually underestimate the final result.
Then, the second time, when well of action and tides of time are back on CD, you still have the accumulated quickness from before (for this you DO need boon duration, but I did say that) and thus the 6s extra second of quickness DO stack and are multiplied (on top of whatever quickness left from the first casts) by SoI.
So it does work as long as you have enough boon duration to get 100% uptime.
If CS is not removed but just changed to not cast TW, then this is even easier since the second SoI will double not only the current WoA + ToT but also the very high amount accumulated during CS.
So here, reaching 100% duration is even easier.
Your assumptions on quickness stacking are wrong. There is a maximum size of stacks (iirc 9), applying quickness sources beyond that will push out the old stacks.
In the usual quickness rotation the mesmer does, there is a great deal of quickness that doesnt get transfered with SoI because of the cap. CS is basically the only thing that really does “double up” on all quickness sources, because it resets the skills.
At any rate, mesmer is nice to play in dungeons and fractals because we have a unique role, but our damage is abysmal. Any content that doesnt involve small organized parties that will be wailing on bosses for some duration of time as a mesmer will likely make you want to stab yourself in the eye.
I dont mind the least bit if CS gets nerfed in one form or another. But if they do not rework phantasms, specifically delete them and rework their damage into the respective weapon skills or make them summons ala necromancer, Mesmer will always feel incredibly clunky to play on anything but bossfights.
And that isnt happening ever.
stuff
I have already answered to every single comment you just made. So I won’t bother do it again. I think I have made my point and everybody can now make its own opinion (I don’t actually think it is a matter of opinion but apparently some people disagree).
Congratulations, you won the debate!
Thanks OP for bringing into light the problems that mesmer has in today’s game. I will personally apologize for the behavior of this sub forum in regards to your person.
I will say you are CORRECT in your assessment of mesmers, and I personally agree with everything you have said. Now there are posters here who disagree with you and they will all refuse to see the truth. Most of them like to hold onto PvE balance to keep mesmer OP in PvP aspects of the game.
I personally say let’s nerf CS to prevent dble elite use 1st. We have to do that now so in the coming weeks we can re-evaluate mesmers before the start of the next PvP season. This should be the balance teams #1 priority and since CS doesn’t affect PvE alacrity up time for 5 man group you should NOT worry about nerfing it for PvE.
This is the CORRECT course of action in regards to over all game balance, and unfortunately for us mesmers we need to come to an understanding that changes need to be made for our class.
Thank You.
Hoping Anet doesn’t take the lazy way out and nerf the ability to double elite with CS.
Hoping Anet will actually take the time and put thought into balancing the current functions because it can be done without severely gutting the mesmer class if they actually nerf CS/elites the way so many are proposing.
I think with proper CD adjustments with both CS and Moa, along with some Moa adjustments this can be done. As for the other elites, please – there has not been any kind of major QQ about double mass invis, gravity well or time warp.
I honestly can’t believe some of the proposed heavy handed hammer nerfs I’ve been seeing. I don’t want mesmer to be OP, I want it balanced like (hopefully) everyone else, but the suggestions I’ve been seeing just don’t make sense.
I just wanted to clearly debunk something I have seen over and over when mentioning a nerf to CS. Many people (including mesmers) suggest a nerf to CS, often by preventing elite skills to be cast. And many mesmers argue this would kill PvE mesmers. So this is simply not true.
First, if one simply prevents elites, then alacrity is untouched and 100% alacrity can be reached “easily”. If this is the case, then
- Tides of Time: 3s quickness every 30s (22.5 with perma alacrity) = 13% quickness uptime
- Well of action: 3s quickness every 25s (18.8 with perma alacrity) = 16% quickness uptime
- Time Warp (untraited): 11s quickness every 180s (135 with perma alacrity) = 8% quickness uptime
- Signet of Inspiration can be assumed to simply double Tides of Time and Well of Action (good approximation since they have the same cooldown and you have already stacked quickness thanks to TW so you don’t loose duration while casting the signet): 26% quickness uptime.
So here we go, even without CS, you get 63% quickness uptime, which will be higher with boon duration and can reach 100%. And with nerfed CS, you can get an additional ToD + WoA + SoI for another 12s quickness every untraited 90s (68s with alacrity) for an extra 18% quickness uptime.
On another note, with similar calculations, I saw that perma alacrity is also possible (with 2 iAvenger, even easier with 3) without any CS, and therefore definitely possible with the “small” nerf suggested.
So no, CS is not needed for PvE viability and also threatens PvP balance and therefore should be nerfed before a-net decides to instead nerf core mesmer even more.
So you’re making some heavily faulty assumptions here, primarily the assumption that you’re casting all the skills immediately off cooldown (you don’t) and that SoI ends up doubling ToT and WoA (it doesn’t).
Due to stacking mechanics, SoI will often only add half of what you’re assuming. ToT is 2 stacks, adding chrono runes means a whole bunch of extra short stacks floating around, and since SoI preserves stacks, you end up overstacking your teammates pretty quickly. Essentially this means that the SoI used twice during the opening CS combo will have slightly less than doubling for the first use and significantly less than doubling for the second use. For the SoI used outside of the CS combo, the quickness will begin wearing off before it is casted, making it significantly less than doubling.
Your other faulty assumption is that all skills are cast on cooldown. This cannot be the case in most fights. Maybe you can maintain this in fractals/dungeons where the fights are by and large snoozefests, but not in raids. A lot of the raids necessitate group mobility and/or defensive reactions to skills. You keep as close to the ideal rotation as possible, but you’ll never actually make it there, sometimes significantly less on some bosses.
So all that being said, lets do some rough math. With permanent alacrity, CS should be on a 60s cd. You’ll use it roughly every 70 seconds though, accounting for time spent inside CS and time waiting for mechanics. We’ll use this as our main time period for calculations. Every 70 seconds:
3 uses of Well of Action: 9s quickness
3 uses of Tides of Time: 9s quickness
3 uses of Signet of Inspiration: ~5s per use, generously for a total of 15s
This totals to 33s of quickness on a 70s cd, or 47.14% uptime.
Time warp is 11s every 135s, for 8.14% uptime.
In total, we end up with 55% base uptime if continuum split does not affect elites. If continuum split does affect elites (current situation) time warp jumps to 11s every 70s, for a 15.71% uptime to reach a total of 63% uptime.
With a revenant providing 50% boon duration, we have the nerfed uptime placed at 82.5% final uptime, and the un-nerfed uptime at 94.5%. Ultimately, is this an extraordinarily massive difference? In most cases, probably not. However, there’s definitely a substantial difference there, and that lower uptime also translates to less room for error on rotations and makes enforced movements for mechanics very unforgiving in terms of falling behind on quickness uptime.
Is it worth eating this nerf to satisfy some PvP complainers that will just latch onto the next strongest part of the build if moa+cs gets nerfed? No.
Every 70 seconds:
3 uses of Well of Action: 9s quickness
3 uses of Tides of Time: 9s quickness
3 uses of Signet of Inspiration: ~5s per use, generously for a total of 15sThis totals to 33s of quickness on a 70s cd, or 47.14% uptime.
Time warp is 11s every 135s, for 8.14% uptime.
In total, we end up with 55% base uptime if continuum split does not affect elites. If continuum split does affect elites (current situation) time warp jumps to 11s every 70s, for a 15.71% uptime to reach a total of 63% uptime.
With a revenant providing 50% boon duration, we have the nerfed uptime placed at 82.5% final uptime, and the un-nerfed uptime at 94.5%.
While I do accept your comments about the faulty assumptions, I’d like to mention that based on your calculations, you should not even use CS at all: ToD and SoI are 30s CD (actually you could easily trait for BI making the signet CD lower) and WoA is 25s CD. So every 68s (90s but reduced with alacrity) you would already cast 3 of each (without needing to wait for CS). In this case, not using CS is actually an improvement because WoA has slightly lower CD and this prevents the second signet use (right after CS) to be negated by already fully saturated quickness stacks.
Or instead (more likely) you could manage to put 4 uses of all quickness sources in your rotation, let’s say every 75s. With your numbers, you get 58% quickness uptime + 8% for TW, with 50% boon duration, you reach 99% uptime.
(edited by Silverkey.2078)
I don’t understand why we can’t just have simple PvE and PvP split on this skill.
Current raid balance is pretty good and why should we try to disrupt that?
I don’t understand why we can’t just have simple PvE and PvP split on this skill.
Current raid balance is pretty good and why should we try to disrupt that?
Exactly. Both game modes suffer greatly from a balance in the other mode. I mean it really wouldn’t harm to simply say “CS doesn’t work with elites in pvp anymore”. I don’t say I support this idea, I just say that if you want it to get nerfed for pvp, then do it for pvp!
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Is it worth eating this nerf to satisfy some PvP complainers that will just latch onto the next strongest part of the build if moa+cs gets nerfed? No.
just skipped all other things you said, this and this alone is why we should never balance based on either pvp, or pve without looking at the other game aspect first.
you are 100% correct, if, indeed, cs gets “nerfed” to not affect elites (double moa for pvp mostly) then i and i think we all can assume that the pvp’ers will still not be satisfied by that. they will simply jump on the other struggle they have, that being shield skill 4 providing 2 phantasms, and a third one with inspiration grandmaster trait.
by all means i know for sure that this will be the next thing that needs a “fix”
i don’t know, but i kinda like my double avenger, and most people i group up, look strange at me if i have only 1 up..you see they like alacrity too.
mesmer had a rough time, and will allways have a rough time. we are only wanted because we can do only a certain things better then others.
reflect? we were not allways needed for reflect, since guardians could do it aswell.
quickness? those same guardians, with their elite shout had better quickness uptime as us so nope
now we are in well i dare even say, quite some good position utility wise and i’d hate to see it yet again being torn away from me.
guild wars 1 had pvp and pve balanced per aspect i fail to see why gw2 can’t
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