Guild Wars 2

Pollution.8703:

Indrea.7803:

There was a single Mesmer in the last tournament…it’s pratically not viable in tpvp and you are frustated for targeting one, in a game dominated by aoe damages?

So if they are frustrating to fight and non viable wouldn’t that make them a good target for a rework? And part of my frustration comes from confusion, which I know other classes have but most of the time I see it coming from Mesmers.

I don’t want a rework, i want that they start to balance the game.

Expansive.3716:

No offense but you just have to learn how to play. Yes i know it’s the age old phrase, however you cannot complain about the Mesmer at this point.

I don’t want to make assumptions, but I feel as if you’ve been playing for only a few months judging by your posts. I don’t know why you are saying Mesmers are frustrating to face “at the moment”

There has been nothing, and i mean NOTHING that the devs has done to truly buff the mesmer in many months. Go and read the past patch notes and you’ll see that between the elementalist and the Mesmer, those two classes have had several nerfs.

Oh and if you think confusion is a problem now, then you’d have a fit if you had played the game in the first few months.

They are frustrating to fight because I almost never had to deal with this many before. And I never called them overpowered. Actually read my post. Fighting 3 mesmers on a point is insanely annoying, because of the mechanics of the class and this game, not because they one shot me or some bs like that.

Pollution.8703:

They are frustrating to fight because I almost never had to deal with this many before. And I never called them overpowered. Actually read my post. Fighting 3 mesmers on a point is insanely annoying, because of the mechanics of the class and this game, not because they one shot me or some bs like that.

When you are in SPvP and come across a guild group of 3 giant norn mesmers that fill up your screen with illusions because you cannot possibly zoom out enough to properly target anything, that is not a learn-to-play issue.

WTB First person mode with Oculus rift, with a button to target what your looking at.

Really the targeting is the biggest issue here, I main mes and even I think it’s kind of silly how for a game where the dominant majority is holding right mouse click to turn you are forced to more or less stop turning so you can single out a target. (that being said I tab… it’s hard to make it work and I don’t even think it’s as effective but feels better to me)

There is a client mod that when holding right click it locks the cursor to the middle of the screen with a cross hair, and enables left click to be auto attack (or “1”) I like this and even though A-net said it was ok to use I feel it should be an in game option. Also instead of auto attack button I’d love to customize it as click to target. This would make combat flow more easily allowing tab to be still be an option but allowing precision targeting as well

Expansive.3716:

Darnis.4056:

Expansive.3716:

No offense but you just have to learn how to play. Yes i know it’s the age old phrase, however you cannot complain about the Mesmer at this point.

I don’t want to make assumptions, but I feel as if you’ve been playing for only a few months judging by your posts. I don’t know why you are saying Mesmers are frustrating to face “at the moment”

There has been nothing, and i mean NOTHING that the devs has done to truly buff the mesmer in many months. Go and read the past patch notes and you’ll see that between the elementalist and the Mesmer, those two classes have had several nerfs.

Oh and if you think confusion is a problem now, then you’d have a fit if you had played the game in the first few months.

That’s not totally true, they’ve buffed underused abilities and weapons for mesmer which are still mostly unused except by hotjoin/duel heros.

I said “the devs have not truly buffed”

I never said they havn’t given any buffs. I’m not trying to come at you but just wanting to prevent future posts from others if they don’t fully read the context of my post.

Additionally, I am not wanting to create an argument, but I want to shed some light on the matter of how the Mesmer is not some alpha profession. Dynamic and versatile, yes.

I’m just trying to prevent some guy from going " BUT WAIT LOOK THEY BUFFED COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT ABILITIES! NERF MESMERS PLEASE"

When you are in SPvP and come across a guild group of 3 giant norn mesmers that fill up your screen with illusions because you cannot possibly zoom out enough to properly target anything, that is not a learn-to-play issue.

This guy gets it.

Pollution.8703:

When you are in SPvP and come across a guild group of 3 giant norn mesmers that fill up your screen with illusions because you cannot possibly zoom out enough to properly target anything, that is not a learn-to-play issue.

This guy gets it.

3 mesmer comp will always lose to a well played balanced comp…
It is a L2p issue.

The Primary.6371:

L2 distinguish the player from the clones. Bring condition removal. Understand the class mechanic rather than being pathetic. You can go a step further and try to understand the builds you are facing.

There is no need to be rude. Your response was just rude. He is not saying that they are overpowered or that he doesn’t know how to face one. He is saying that they are not fun to fight.

Darnis.4056:

3 mesmer comp will always lose to a well played balanced comp…
It is a L2p issue.

Did you not see me say SPvP? It doesn’t matter if numerically an all mesmer group won’t cut it in competitive play; it’s not a great mechanic if that can happen from just 2-3 people in any format.

It is not a L2P issue from the perspective of a badly designed targeting system. A 3 mesmer team will not beat a well-balanced team, but they’re certainly going to clog up your interface with useless nonsense.

sorrow.2364:

Michael.7382:

Sorrow means it’s quite hard to target in big teamfights when u got spirit ranger, a mm, a one more guy and the mesmer. And when u finally target it for burst he can port, stealth etc. But when targetting mesmer on teamfight, I target it myself for the team so they see him all the time and ther eis no problem killing it as its paper.

Ok, maybe 80% was rlly 2much :> but as i said be4, catching mes in teamfight is not a problem for me. When I play necro hes pretty much dead the first second I see him on the team fight Maybe its just me, but very rarely i loose target on mesm, I find it worse to maintain it on stealth thieves.

Mantaining target on thief is as hard as mantaining target on mesmers. It is a problem of stealth itself.
The fact that mesmer generates AI while thief doesn’t makes mesmer harder in some aspects.

What thief are you fighting that still uses stealth anyway?

Leuca.5732:

Darnis.4056:

3 mesmer comp will always lose to a well played balanced comp…
It is a L2p issue.

Did you not see me say SPvP? It doesn’t matter if numerically an all mesmer group won’t cut it in competitive play; it’s not a great mechanic if that can happen from just 2-3 people in any format.

It is not a L2P issue from the perspective of a badly designed targeting system. A 3 mesmer team will not beat a well-balanced team, but they’re certainly going to clog up your interface with useless nonsense.

So we can’t beat you… and therefore …..it’s imbalanced? .. One Earthshaker clears the map of all illusions lol…

Guys all the OP is trying to say is that learning to fight mesmers as a new player isn’t fun. He’s said over and over he’s not talking about balance. It’s a valid complaint (one that top players brought up to devs last year).

Learning to fight mesmers was also my least favorite part of learning the game last year. But it’s also too late for core design changes. Mesmers are designed to be frustrating; we can’t change that without effectively making them into a different profession.

A better thing to do would be a massive tutorial revamp. Also, hotjoin scoring could be reworked so it teaches the game better and results in less total confusion zergfights.

Darnis.4056:

So we can’t beat you… and therefore …..it’s imbalanced? .. One Earthshaker clears the map of all illusions lol…

Inserting words I never used is dishonest.

Leuca.5732:

Darnis.4056:

So we can’t beat you… and therefore …..it’s imbalanced? .. One Earthshaker clears the map of all illusions lol…

Inserting words I never used is dishonest.

leuca onl because u had a bad time vs 3 organized mesmers doent mean the whole class has to be nerfed. all we have seen lately were major nerfs, which crippled our wvw viablity greatly. so now u want evn more nerf eventhough we are still bottom feeders in spvp next to the eles that have it even worse. what about nercos? or warriors and thieves and engis and guardians? what about rangers?

the moment u nerfe the mesmers even more, ull find something new to cry about. go ahead make a mesmer and try it out.

do u realize that most of our entire traitlines are about clones and shattering and phantasms? and the rest is all confusion pretty much which already has been nerfed to the bottom of the bottom of the bottom. u wanna remove clones? sure then let anet rework our entire traitline and weapons.
removing clones or nerfing them to the ground is like removing marks and wells from necros, or take away a rangers pet, orturn the warrior into a light armor class, or removing fire from an ele or stealth from a thiev or boons from a guardian or elixirs from an engi.
go and try to play a mesmer in spvp and see.

I think the problem is that everyone would like to have an easy fight in pvp with actually every class different than his. You forget that you are fighting other people… And not mobs. It should be challenging. Mesmer class is all about deception, you cannot wish to change the mechanics of entire class, just because you are frustrated. Sorry. Let’s see… Mesmers do even have a skill called “Cry of Frustration”.

Oh god…
Yes please Anet, rework our class and bring us back GW1 mesmer.
Then all the whiners will know what frustration really is and be able to kill themselves.
I have (no) empathy for them.

XenoLV.3274:

Oh god…
Yes please Anet, rework our class and bring us back GW1 mesmer.
Then all the whiners will know what frustration really is and be able to kill themselves.
I have (no) empathy for them.

This !!! At first I will make u unable to use skills, than i will drain your energy and at the end I will gratefuly let u kill urselfs. Gw2 mesmer in terms of frustration is far behind the Gw1 mesmer. Ah, old good times :S

XenoLV.3274:

Oh god…
Yes please Anet, rework our class and bring us back GW1 mesmer.
Then all the whiners will know what frustration really is and be able to kill themselves.
I have (no) empathy for them.

I know right. Its like the new mesmers are a perfect example, the very personification of the decay in quality and skill based gameplay going from GW1 to GW2.

And you guys enjoy playing this the most. Just saiyan.

XenoLV.3274:

Oh god…
Yes please Anet, rework our class and bring us back GW1 mesmer.
Then all the whiners will know what frustration really is and be able to kill themselves.
I have (no) empathy for them.

this sooo much!i would love to see the mesmer more like gw1 mesmer. we woud be more than just veilbots in wvw. confusion was the only thing that was kinda close to the old gw1 mesmers ability to stop mindless button spammers, but anet nerfed it into the graound. id be happy to give up all my clones (which i cant use in wvw anyways)and even phantasms to get the real gw1 cry of frustraton back and with it a lot of the real mesmer skills.

I’d like EBurn brought back, destroy dodge energy.

Mathias.9657:

What thief are you fighting that still uses stealth anyway?

D/P is fairly popular and it is extremely stealth reliant.

sorrow.2364:

Mathias.9657:

What thief are you fighting that still uses stealth anyway?

D/P is fairly popular and it is extremely stealth reliant.

Really? I haven’t seen it at all lately, except for hotjoin of course.

XenoLV.3274:

Oh god…
Yes please Anet, rework our class and bring us back GW1 mesmer.
Then all the whiners will know what frustration really is and be able to kill themselves.
I have (no) empathy for them.

You can’t make a direct comparison like that to GW1.
Back in GW1 control was way more prominent in every profession, not only mesmer.

Necromancers were able to constantly snare, degen and slow down the attack speed, not to mention Spiteful Spirit.
Blindness completely shut down any melee profession.
Interrupt Rangers really did something in terms of control and denial.

In that context, mesmer was far from frustrating since pretty much the whole game worked like that.

Mathias.9657:

Really? I haven’t seen it at all lately, except for hotjoin of course.

A lot of high tiered thieves run D/P and are extremely effective with.
Of course there are a lot of S/D thieves but just because that is a stupid easy to play spec.

sorrow.2364:

Mathias.9657:

Really? I haven’t seen it at all lately, except for hotjoin of course.

A lot of high tiered thieves run D/P and are extremely effective with.
Of course there are a lot of S/D thieves but just because that is a stupid easy to play spec.

I guess I am not high enough tier to face them, I know Caed and others run it, it has insane burst but an extremely unforgiving if you mess up or miss the BS which is common even for the pro players due to the way positioning works when the stab goes off.

That’s the only reason I don’t like to play it, too RNG even when it SHOULD hit imo.

sorrow.2364:

XenoLV.3274:

Oh god…
Yes please Anet, rework our class and bring us back GW1 mesmer.
Then all the whiners will know what frustration really is and be able to kill themselves.
I have (no) empathy for them.

You can’t make a direct comparison like that to GW1.
Back in GW1 control was way more prominent in every profession, not only mesmer.

Necromancers were able to constantly snare, degen and slow down the attack speed, not to mention Spiteful Spirit.
Blindness completely shut down any melee profession.
Interrupt Rangers really did something in terms of control and denial.

In that context, mesmer was far from frustrating since pretty much the whole game worked like that.

Unlike other GW1 professions, pretty every mesmer skill was designed around frustration, that was mesmer identity imo.

I was a little bit provocative (and desperate) in my previous post, but still, what the OP wants is to nerf (again) everything that makes a mesmer unique or fun to play with, and buff something else.
Well, I want to ask him what “something else” refers to.
Less clones, less confusion, less CC means less survivability…then buff what ? our random buff/debuff based skills to make them less, but still random ? support skills because being a portal/veilbot is not enough ?
More DPS every glasscanon player will complain about ?

We have to be realistic, neither a GW1 mesmer comeback or a class rework will happen.

If something’s really wrong, balance team will take care of it.
Bazinga !

(English is not my first language, I appologize if something isn’t understandable).

selan.8354:

leuca onl because u had a bad time vs 3 organized mesmers doent mean the whole class has to be nerfed. all we have seen lately were major nerfs, which crippled our wvw viablity greatly. so now u want evn more nerf eventhough we are still bottom feeders in spvp next to the eles that have it even worse. what about nercos? or warriors and thieves and engis and guardians? what about rangers?

the moment u nerfe the mesmers even more, ull find something new to cry about. go ahead make a mesmer and try it out.

do u realize that most of our entire traitlines are about clones and shattering and phantasms? and the rest is all confusion pretty much which already has been nerfed to the bottom of the bottom of the bottom. u wanna remove clones? sure then let anet rework our entire traitline and weapons.
removing clones or nerfing them to the ground is like removing marks and wells from necros, or take away a rangers pet, orturn the warrior into a light armor class, or removing fire from an ele or stealth from a thiev or boons from a guardian or elixirs from an engi.
go and try to play a mesmer in spvp and see.

Again, I didn’t say anything about changing the way clones/phantasms are summoned and work at a base level. The game is too far in to make drastic changes like that without overhauling a lot more in the game. Please read conversations before you essentially waste your time responding.

What needs to happen is for the targeting system to be improved. My example doesn’t mean mesmers need to be nerfed, but it does mean that there’s serious issues with the interface that need to be addressed. Mesmers are just an amazing example to highlight said issues.

Changing the Mesmer at this point would take a tremendous amount of work, and unfortunately I don’t think it can realistically be expected any time soon.

It would be fantastic to see Mesmer become more like it was in GW, but this is a very different combat system and an implementation approaching that functionality would be such a dramatic departure from the current state of Mesmer that you are talking about changing pre-alpha design decisions on the class.

A ‘compromise’ iteration of the Mesmer is probably the best we could hope for. Something like:

Phantasms – Deleted and replaced with high output damage skills that actually require some semblance of skill to use/hit.

Shatters – Diversion becomes the short CD skill (duration would need some alteration), Mind Wrack gets much longer CD with higher burst

Weapon sets- completely reworked to favor more damage output from the playing character with less dependence on AI (whether from the phants/clones or shatters).

Mesmer traits/weapon sets/utilities all need a ton of work to make the profession fit better in the combat system. It isn’t the fault of the Mesmer players that the only way to play the class effectively is to utilize deficiencies in the combat system of the game.

Mesmers don’t need a rework, I see many good players who are good at defeating mesmers or at least have an even chance at it. It’s just the fact that most people who main a mesmer or can play a mesmer tend to be able to handle its gameplay. People will say it has a low skill floor but i don’t find that true. I think people who like to play the mesmer or likes its playstyle tends to be a slightly decent player who can micro manage (Some ppl would like to say its spamming) But compared to something more straight forward, mesmers is constant button work and movement. We have a lot of utility and evasion and helpful things for us to stay alive, but its not that easy, you still have to do a lot of work. Take a super tanky warrior or guardian for example, they can stand and just take the mesmers hits. i’ve seen necros, good or bad, just pop a death shroud to get away from a zerg, thieves go perma stealth and get extremely far away. Mesmers have what they have in order to survive. That’s the class design. Mesmers in order to survive need to make use of all their skills, clones etc. Imo, if someone likes to main their mesmer, they are relatively skilled at the not so straightforward gameplay of mesmers, the button work and reflex and strategy. Everyone complains that mesmers have lack of dps in numbers compared to other classes, even our phantasms, do nothing compared to other straightforward dps classes, the way a mesmer can take someone down depends on their skill. Mesmers also have to sacrifice a lot to just have some condition removal, so you might find many mesmers who are susceptible to condition damage. anyway basically, mesmers perhaps averages with a slightly higher skill level of players. If someone is not a skilled player, they would probably be the ones who complain about mesmers being weak, and end up not playing it. The ones you face, are the ones who like the niche style of mesmer gameplay and find themselves good at it. However, there are many good players out there who will do fine against mesmers. It comes down to skill imo

Leuca.5732:

Darnis.4056:

So we can’t beat you… and therefore …..it’s imbalanced? .. One Earthshaker clears the map of all illusions lol…

Inserting words I never used is dishonest.

He didnt. He said that “a 3 people mesmer group wont hold up against any well organized spvp group”. We as in us. We (the mesmers) wont be able to beat you (the group that doesnt have a crapload of useless classes) so its imbalanced?
All it takes is some heavy damage aoe and the screen is uncluttered.
(just to clear that up, you two are clearly not understanding each other)

Ew. This got moved here from the spvp forum. We don’t want this.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Ew. This got moved here from the spvp forum. We don’t want this.

/agreed

Fjandi.2516:

They can’t change the class mechanic, it’s too late. The mesmer is just a poorly designed class, like the ranger. It’s not a coincidence these 2 classes have the 2 most spam-friendly weapons in game (mesmer gs and ranger sb). Mesmer is a low risk high reward (well…not really esp in this meta, still low risk tho) class. People tend to complain a lot about stun lock warriors, and no doubt there is a reason for that, but I mean at least a warrior has to actually land the stuns (and most of them are easy to dodge except for sc); a mesmer doesn’t even need to chase the target, just press 1 button and you summon a phantasm, another one and you can teleport to your target, shatter your clones etc; this while spamming gs #1 (or staff skills) like a baws.
At least it’s not like spirit rangers, since you can at least see the difference between a good or a bad mesmer, mostly due to smart portal play.

It’s funny cause I think GS mesmers are the weakest to fight.

Are you playing sPvP vs a phant build?

Hmmm.. IDK what the problem is, I never have problems finding / targeting the real Mesmer. I’ll find it nearly instantly after it comes out of stealth. Then again I am a mesmer and I’ve learned our tricks. I never use this, but… its a l2p issue.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Ew. This got moved here from the spvp forum. We don’t want this.

This.

It’s a mesmer oriented discussion :/
Look these guys want a mesmer rework, maybe we can make suggestions to and get a better deal in the end?

Say Make Phantasmal Warlock deal eviscerate/backstab damage(13-16k) instead of 2-3k but fire off only once?.. that sounds fair right?

Darnis.4056:

It’s a mesmer oriented discussion :/
Look these guys want a mesmer rework, maybe we can make suggestions to and get a better deal in the end?

Say Make Phantasmal Warlock deal eviscerate/backstab damage(13-16k) instead of 2-3k but fire off only once?.. that sounds fair right?

oh can i have a killshot phantasm? or a stunlock hammer phantasm. yay sure u can have my clones then.:-)

Darnis.4056:

It’s a mesmer oriented discussion :/
Look these guys want a mesmer rework, maybe we can make suggestions to and get a better deal in the end?

Say Make Phantasmal Warlock deal eviscerate/backstab damage(13-16k) instead of 2-3k but fire off only once?.. that sounds fair right?

Thus far there hasnt been much complaint about the skills themselves, but the mesmer core mechanics ie. clones, targeting the real mesmer and all that.
(i think part of that comes with mesmers just not beeing strong in any departement BUT target denial)

What people dont get is, that mesmers without target denial are pretty much free kills. Really, to the point where you might as well just delete the class.

At any rate, play the mesmer in spvp for an hour or so, you will easily be able to figure out who is who afterwards. You will still lose target every so often, but you will reaquire it just as soon.

Offtopic: my ideal mesmer rework would be to get outsourced damage back to weapon skills, like phantasms. Just make it a burst damage skill with that weapon (or whatever). Get back that arcane duelist feeling. Tone down clones and shatters as needed (like shatters needed more of a friggen nerf).

Cataca.3867:

Darnis.4056:

It’s a mesmer oriented discussion :/
Look these guys want a mesmer rework, maybe we can make suggestions to and get a better deal in the end?

Say Make Phantasmal Warlock deal eviscerate/backstab damage(13-16k) instead of 2-3k but fire off only once?.. that sounds fair right?

Thus far there hasnt been much complaint about the skills themselves, but the mesmer core mechanics ie. clones, targeting the real mesmer and all that.
(i think part of that comes with mesmers just not beeing strong in any departement BUT target denial)

What people dont get is, that mesmers without target denial are pretty much free kills. Really, to the point where you might as well just delete the class.

At any rate, play the mesmer in spvp for an hour or so, you will easily be able to figure out who is who afterwards. You will still lose target every so often, but you will reaquire it just as soon.

Offtopic: my ideal mesmer rework would be to get outsourced damage back to weapon skills, like phantasms. Just make it a burst damage skill with that weapon (or whatever). Get back that arcane duelist feeling. Tone down clones and shatters as needed (like shatters needed more of a friggen nerf).

welcome to the wvw mesmer. :-) heay, but at east we got veil right?

veil AND portal. so OP

I do not bother fighting PU mesmers. They cannot die unless they mess up. Terribly. Many times.
That said, they’re weak in teamfights and cannot hold points. Nice for hotjoin though.

Cataca.3867:

veil AND portal. so OP

omg yes i forgot. and also that awesome tw that has like no cooldown at all.

Requiem.8769:

I do not bother fighting PU mesmers. They cannot die unless they mess up. Terribly. Many times.
That said, they’re weak in teamfights and cannot hold points. Nice for hotjoin though.

That is just not true. Any decent d/p-thief with patience and build to survive and regen can do the trick.
Thieves even made “a tutorial” on how to do it. Unfortunately many don’t have the patience, and that is why they fail.