Guild Wars 2

I’m thinking of running a 0/20/20/0/30 hybrid shatter/tanky condition Staff+MH Sword+Something build for playing around in WvW and dungeons. Perhaps this is ill-advised, but I’m sorta aiming for a somewhat all-around build that isn’t made of glass. However, I’m not really sure if it’s better to go Carrion (Cond/Power/Vit) or Rabid (Cond/Precision/Toughness) for my gear.

I understand that the conventional knowledge dictates that Rabid is superior for condition-focused Staff builds thanks to Sharper Images and bleed stacking, plus Sup Sigil of Earth for extra bleeds and all that delicious crit synergy. The problem is, I like to shatter very frequently for burst + aoe (nice in dungeons and crowded wvw situations), and so I’m not going to constantly have 3 clones spamming bleeds. Going Rabid over Carrion seems to end up with noticeably weaker shatters with this build from testing I did in the Mists. I’m not actually sure that the extra bleeds outweigh the noticeably lower base damage from attacks and shatters.

I’m just wondering if anyone has some valuable input to provide on which armor set would be more optimal for the Shatter/Condition build I’d like to play. Rabid seems like the better choice in theory, but I’m just not sure that Sharper Images makes up the damage gap. Sup Sigil of Earth also is definitely another point in Rabid’s favour, but the 2 sec cooldown between procs makes it seem slightly less attractive than I first thought. There’s also the whole synergy between Runes of the Undead and Toughness, but the difference isn’t quite as big as I expected.

Or, y’know, you could just tell me that hybrid condition/shatter is a silly idea and I should go sit in the corner. :P

I’m running pretty much the same build.
http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mzmc0mzMzMarLmMlbLm0GG0xzamackq8khT707khT7kir7khT70z7kIa70V

May not be the “best” spec ever but I do pretty good with it. in WvW and PvE (I haven’t gotten into SPvP really as I want to do it with friends but their not receptive to it so I may start PuGing and I may completely change my mind on the spec after but for now it does what I want! XD.)

But I’m actually running Rampager Gear (with Lyssa Runes.) with a Mixture of Rampager and Carrion accessories. Weapons I run Staff (with Accuracy Sigil.) Sword (sometimes Scepter with Fire Sigil.) and Focus (some times Pistol with Fire Sigil.)

My Stats are not OMG amazing but they get the job done.
HP: 17,242
Armor: 2,100
Power: 1,616
Condition Damage: 1,076
Crit Chance: 54%
Crit Damage: 20% (Low I know but really when I shatter it’s to apply confusion, even Mind Wrack but it’s nice Mind Wrack hit’s pretty alright.)

The Spec can take a few hits esp with 3 clones out, and I’m usually the last one alive and able to kite bosses and survive until the team get’s back in Dungeons..Fractals (man I hate those things.) If I’m the last one left I usually have to kill myself or reset the fight, but I do repair far less than everyone else, and while it doesn’t do the highest numbers (so no giant kitten numbers.)the condition damage machine Guns numbers out like no tomorrow, and confusion works well as long as you know the fights and know when to use it. So you’re really more sustained damage than burst, I personally feel the build feels a lot like an Affliction Warlock from WoW but with clones you shatter here and there and no fear and a lot more movement involved.

You can check out Xeph’s (Team Paradigm) hybrid shatter mesmer to give you an idea how hybrid mesmer works: http://www.gw2build.com/builds/simulator.php#1.8.3.7.20.0.24.21.29.0.180.196.184.199.203.5.5.30.526.532.0.542.550.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.591.590.0.20.20.0.5.25

Go power/tough/vit. With tuning crystals and might stacks you can still get cond damage to 1600

In WvW and PvE you can eat Rare Veggie Pizza to increase your condition duration by 40%. Together with Master of Misdirection this allows Confusion to deal a lot of damage (especially in WvW), allowing Mind Wrack to work well with a full condition build.

While it may seem as though Carrion is still superior due to extra direct damage, consider this. With Rabid you get Precision to proc Critical Infusion, giving you near-permanent 2x Endurance recharge for Deceptive Evasion. Taking Rabid therefore would allow you to Shatter more often.

Also consider Cry of Frustration, which is very powerful in a full condition build but doesn’t really benefit from Power.

rabid is much superior.

The problem with vitality is it can keep up with toughness only until the first heal. After that it is a road down. I cannot speak of all the classes, but as far as the Mesmer is concerned Vitality + Healing together equal a stat worthy of comparison to Toughness. On their own healing is terrible and Vitality is meh. The only non-Rabid piece I’d wear is to not waste stat on Precision that doesn’t add up to a full % of crit, and it’s always just a gem in a trinket.

Vitality is the best form of mitigation against condition damage; other than stripping, seeing as how condition damage bypasses toughness/armor. High vitality also allows you to live through bursts and ambushing.

This is the build I use (0/20/20/0/30), but with Staff/GS. I currently use Carrion to great affect, but I’ve been thinking of changing it up…but it works so well. I managed to solo the statue of Dwayna using only a staff with this build. Took forever though…

http://imgur.com/a/eZybQ#0

Mesmer condition builds aren’t necessarily tanky. I wouldn’t call this build tanky. The Dueling trait line encourages looking for an opportunity to unleash a quick string of attacks and then dancing around your opponent to avoid damage while on cooldown. Rabid works for this playstyle because Dueling traits trigger on crits.

A bunker condition build works differently. Trait points are spent in Inspiration rather than Dueling. Boons play a bigger role in this build to mitigate damage while conditions eat away at the health of opponents. You have to be a lot more careful with Shatters and thus the burst damage is limited. In exchange, this build has more party support.

I think people generally call condition Mesmers “tanky” because they are significantly more survivable than the dominant Berserker Shatter build, which incorporates no defensive stats at all.

I use Carrion as well because I run high condition damage and conditions are unable to critical so precision is not as important to me. I also go with pure force sigils so that my condition damage gets a boost as well. I have run 0/15/25/0/20 , 0/0/30/10/30 , and 0/0/25/15/30. While the first setup gives a bit more direct damage from the criticals, and a few extra bleed stacks, what I’m seeing is an overall drop in base and condition damage as a result.

Obviously if I were running 0/20/20/0/30 or something similar that pewps clones and farts butterflies out every time you somersault, then critical chance(precision)/damage would be a more desirable stat for dealing a bit more burst.

Anyhow, carrion with the 0/0/25-30/10-15/30 builds was nice because of the extra investment in vitality traits that allowed for condition removal on heal and for my illusion to regenerate nearby allies and spawn with retaliation—so at least they did some damage those times they get one-shot shortly after spawning. This made using tuning crystals and power/vitality/toughness foods that much better because of the toughness/vitality synergy all the way around giving 14% of toughness and 6% of vitality as condition damage. Overall, I am thinking I like the higher base and condition damage as well as added survivability and support of these builds. They may be more appealing to those that don’t get off on huge numbers and instead strive for efficiency through survival and pressure.

I’d go with Rabid. If you’re gonna put 20 into dueling, best choice would be to get Rabid.

Crit = more vigor = more dodges = more survivability
Crit = bleed for illusions + sigil of earth

Even if you plan on shattering alot, you’ll be able to generate alot of clones simply with staff 2 (X trait on Chaos) and rolling so the precision will still help.

In regards to toughness vs vitality, I prefer toughness because it’s a better stat over long fights since heals heal for “more” when you have higher toughness (unless you’re against a pure condition build). Also, toughness has great synergy with 25 in chaos and undead runes if you plan on running those, as well as crystals since its 6% from tough and only 4% from vit…

Hope that helps. Here’s my build if you’re interested:
Flimp’s Condition Build

and my vids if you want to see it in action (vol.5).
Flimp’s PvP Videos

sinican.9250:

I also go with pure force sigils so that my condition damage gets a boost as well.

Sigil of Force doesn’t affect condition damage. Nor does +3% damage per clone. Nor Vulnerability.

FLIMP.8172:

I’d go with carrion. If you’re gonna put 20 into dueling, best choice would be to get carrion.

You mean Rabid, of course.

Embolism.8106:

FLIMP.8172:

I’d go with carrion. If you’re gonna put 20 into dueling, best choice would be to get carrion.

You mean Rabid, of course.

Oh yes, Rabid! My bad hahaha fixed

Thanks for the advice, everyone! I can’t not take Deceptive Evasion as long as it remains in its current state, because I love popping clones out everywhere. After using that trait for months, the fractal and dungeon path that glitch it out always make me feel terribly naked.

So, assuming I do go with Rabid (Cond/Precision/Toughness) on the advice of most of you lovely people, any suggestions as to what to do with ring/trinket/amulet slots? As far as I know, you can get ascended rabid rings, but that’s a bit more of a “for the future” sort of thing. Run with Rampager for the jewellery? Carrion? Apothecary? Shaman? Something that pumps toughness? A mix of the above?

As for runes, would you suggest Undead, Lyssa, or something else? Undead does seem like an obvious choice given the toughness/condition stacking, but I find it funny that the #6 benefit (5% of toughness to condition damage) actually adds a bit less than the #5 benefit (+100 condition damage) for a lot of builds. Lyssa obviously gives a rather lovely “reset” button in conjunction with Mass Invis.

I’m also curious if you guys think that it might be better to drop Illusionary Persona and add the extra 10 pts elsewhere, such as in Chaos. Obviously, Shattered Strength is nice right now, but that’s surely gonna be nerfed soonish. Is it worth considering a scepter for confusion stacks as well? I’d probably be using the +duration pizzas and the tuning crystals, btw.

Carrion is far better than Rampager’s, definitely get them if you can’t get Rabid. Runes, matter of preference. I like to maximise CondDmg so I go for Undead. Someone who really likes Confusion may find Nightmare better.

10 points in Chaos or Illusions depends on whether you want offense or defense. Prismatic Understanding is a lovely trait if you like to run solo in WvW. As it is though the extra (Confusion) damage you get from Illusionary Persona and Shattered Strength is probably too good to pass up. In PvE definitely go for 10 in Illusions.

Confusing Images is really quite sub-par. It takes ages for your character to flourish their scepter before starting to inflict Confusion, and 8 times out of 10 it will at least be partially dodged/blocked/obstructed. That said, I still use the Sceptre.

Overall though Sword is probably the better choice in WvW. You get a 2s invulnerability, massive boon stripping and a 2s Immobilise. In PvE Sceptre is passable since mobs generally don’t dodge/block/LoS your Confusing Images.

FLIMP.8172:

I’d go with Rabid. If you’re gonna put 20 into dueling, best choice would be to get Rabid.

Crit = more vigor = more dodges = more survivability
Crit = bleed for illusions + sigil of earth

Even if you plan on shattering alot, you’ll be able to generate alot of clones simply with staff 2 (X trait on Chaos) and rolling so the precision will still help.

In regards to toughness vs vitality, I prefer toughness because it’s a better stat over long fights since heals heal for “more” when you have higher toughness (unless you’re against a pure condition build). Also, toughness has great synergy with 25 in chaos and undead runes if you plan on running those, as well as crystals since its 6% from tough and only 4% from vit…

Hope that helps. Here’s my build if you’re interested:
Flimp’s Condition Build

and my vids if you want to see it in action (vol.5).
Flimp’s PvP Videos

Your links don’t work for me.

Carrion if you can shatter like a bleep-hole (example: you selected recharge shatters at %50 health). Also if you want to use weapons that produce “power” phantasms (example: sword/sword gives you the most illusions to shatter).

Rabid if you are going to have downtimes and/or am not super-interested in mind wrack (example: three staff clones spamming or mind wrack? With rabid I’d choose the former)

Rampage if your primary goal is illusions bleed on crit

Shaman if you care most about confusion damage.

Rabid and Carrion are both ok in general. I feel that Rabid tactically over-invests into condition damage (by employing both Sharper Images and direct condition damage). This means an opponent with good cleanses shuts you down, and you have no burst.

Carrion will lose ~80 or 90% of the Sharper Images DPS, but will shift that to harder hitting Mind Wracks (which you use all the time for Confusion anyways) and significantly harder hitting iWarlock and other direct damage stuff.

I think Carrion provides a better spread of condition and direct damage.

The only complexity is that this type of build really like lots of Clones, and picking up Deceptive Evasion not only costs 20 points in a tree you otherwise don’t use, but also picks up SI.

If you can play this build without DE (WHICH IS VERY DIFFICULT IMO), then Carrion is the clear winner because you don’t need 20 Dueling. Otherwise, it’s a toss-up based on whether you want a bit more synergy (Rabid), or more damage vectors and burst (Carrion).

Actually, I feel like I want to investigate more ‘no-Dueling’ options for this build. Probably won’t pan out well, but worth looking again. Bye bye.

I have tried 0-10-30-0-30 with shamans and it has potential. I realize that isn’t truly “no dueling” but it basically emhasizes your intention.

The 10 = retaliation on block and that in turn requires the stealth grandmaster to make it work.

The other to try is loading up condition duration so that your confusion lasts. I have been running full shatter build with recharge on %50 and signet of illusions to double up on cry of frustration early in a confrontation. It seems to work ok but the duration of the confusion stacks, even at +%73 doesn’t blow my mind. Still a servicable spec but I of course have DE. I just relate this anecdotally.

Zid.4196:

sinican.9250:

I also go with pure force sigils so that my condition damage gets a boost as well.

Sigil of Force doesn’t affect condition damage. Nor does +3% damage per clone. Nor Vulnerability.

Umm wut… since when… please link to official statement…

Otherwise “Damage” includes Direct Damage, Condition Damage, and Falling Damage.

Since always and it’s very easy to test it yourself.

ANet’s statements about mechanics are general guidelines at best and useless at worst. Everything in this game must be tested to actually find out how it works.

@sinican – It’s actually pretty easy to test by just going to the Mists. I checked just now, and a Sup Sigil of Force definitely didn’t affect my bleed ticks at all. Ditto vulnerability. The might stacks that staff autoattack gave me did, so be careful about how buffs might impact your perception if you decide to test this out.

Kazhiel.8194:

FLIMP.8172:

I’d go with Rabid. If you’re gonna put 20 into dueling, best choice would be to get Rabid.

Crit = more vigor = more dodges = more survivability
Crit = bleed for illusions + sigil of earth

Even if you plan on shattering alot, you’ll be able to generate alot of clones simply with staff 2 (X trait on Chaos) and rolling so the precision will still help.

In regards to toughness vs vitality, I prefer toughness because it’s a better stat over long fights since heals heal for “more” when you have higher toughness (unless you’re against a pure condition build). Also, toughness has great synergy with 25 in chaos and undead runes if you plan on running those, as well as crystals since its 6% from tough and only 4% from vit…

Hope that helps. Here’s my build if you’re interested:
Flimp’s Condition Build

and my vids if you want to see it in action (vol.5).
Flimp’s PvP Videos

Your links don’t work for me.

Oops! Sorry, fixed links… Thanks for the pickup!

Flimp’s Condition Build

Flimp’s PvP Videos

quercus.9261:

Go power/tough/vit. With tuning crystals and might stacks you can still get cond damage to 1600

With Rabid its easy to get over 2000 condition damage. (before might)
http://www.youtube.com/kyliad (Build is included in the channel)

If you go full rabid, then you ‘must’ take the rune of Undead, the synergy with the toughness into Condition damage is what makes Rabid so powerful.

If your not going to go into the Undead rune, then the best makeup would be a mix of carrion and rabid, aiming for 1500 toughness and 20k life targets. (before wvw buffs)