Guild Wars 2

Trait nerfs are justified when they attempt to shave an OP spec to be more inline with the norm of game play. However, what is happening here is not an attempt to accomplish this but an attempt to appease the GW2 community QQ. I am OK with the changes to Prismatic Understanding, although only adding Swiftness instead of Swiftness + Might to the potential boons gained might be a more reasonable approach to adjusting this trait and also stay true to its defensive flavor. However, the clone death changes are completely unjustified and will be very bad for Mesmer build diversity going forward. Below I will attempt to enumerate reasons why this is the case and invite those who think this is OK to refute these arguments.

1. The 4-4-6 Condi/PU build was never OP in the fist place.
a) This build has no viability in sPvP/tPvP.
b) As a WvW roamer this build is terrible at preventing small objective caps while waiting on reinforcements because of its reliance on stealth. Bunker Guardians and Warriors fulfill this role much more efficaciously.
c) In WvW small group play this build brings little to no group support and is usually a disadvantage to its team in even fights vs other group comps. I have had to shun players from our guild’s havoc team because they insisted on running this build. If you have teammates to watch your back, Shatter is a much stronger choice for the same reasons it is the dominant Mesmer build in sPvP/tPvP.
d) If wrecking new and or clueless players or simply being hard to pin down and kill constituted OPness then the whole of the Thief profession should probably just be wiped from the face of Tyria.

2. This is not only a nerf to Mesmer condition damage output, but a nerf to the Mesmer’s available defensive options which is unwarranted and will hinder build diversity.
a) Regardless of build, a Mesmer is reliant on clone/phantasm generation for both defense and damage. Having access to a suite of traits that punish AE spam and wanton killing of clones makes it more likely that we will actually be able to do damage by making our clones punishing to attack or be able to buy time to regenerate our damage base by covering ourselves with defensive conditions (cripple, weakness, lower attack spam through confusion.) I also play Ele and can tell you right now that Burning Speed is going to trivialize a number of fights that required some use of tactics before. Thieves, an already difficult match for Mesmer, will also be able to CnD and destroy clones with little to no punishment.
b) This reduction in defensive potential will push more players into Prismatic Understanding. I think this is pretty self explanatory, but there are non condition/PU builds out there that can pick up these traits for a bit of extra defense, making these traits so that they can be dodged, blocked and blinded will greatly reduce their effectiveness and this loss will have to be made up somewhere. Our only remaining strong defensive trait is PU. This is a whack-a-mole nerf that will actually increase the prevalence of 4-4-6 Condi/PU as other builds are made less viable.

Conclusions: Overall this is an extremely bad trade off for Mesmer game play. Post patch we will be stuck with a bad scepter auto attack and less build diversity than before. 4-4-6 Condition/PU will still play largely like it has played before, but other potential builds will be hit hard. The IE fix will not effect most clone death builds because they do not have the available trait points to pick up both IE and all the clone death traits; thus, if a condition build wants IE+clone death it will have to give up PU already greatly lowering its defense.

This leaves us with the scepter changes to consider. If the devs feel that the scepter changes will push current condition/PU builds into the realm of OPness, the responsible course of action would be to delay the implementation of scepter changes in lieu of prenerfing a whole suite of Mesmer traits. Scepter needs QoL and auto attack improvements, but the current design decisions are bad an unimaginative all around. It would be much better to wait for well designed scepter changes than to have the current proposal shoved down our throats.

I call this clone death nerf both heavy handed and short sighted. Lern2dev.

Clone death traits are fine but PU is very odd. I don’t want to take chances and wait for patch but since no info was given on might intensity and duration five boons on limited stealth is unreliable retaliation and swiftness or swiftness alone would have done the trick. Very sudden response good to know they look at feedback but they took it far for PU.

I don’t understand why they can’t just reconsider the torment add? The community as a whole has only been screaming about that. Change it to confusion, as confusion is one of the conditions that is considered ‘mesmer’ or slap another condi onto it if the devs are too scared of confusion being out there. This nerf is heavy handed and not warranted. We are glad that the devs pay attention to the community, this time though I don’t think they really understood what was making everyone upset.

The PU nerf was ok in my eyes, and I agree, the might could be removed though. Having to cycle through with swiftness through the boons is enough of nerf.

pretty much agree rabid. I’m harsh on the clone death nerf b/c it’s just a sloppy way to balance. Other builds use those traits besides PU, and I hate when there is collateral nerfing. For kittens sake, just fix scepter guys.

The devs had complete tunnel vision on the clone death nerfs. Grouch said in RU that the clone death nerfs are meant to tone down PU builds. Then he mentioned all the time they spent dueling on PU to figure it out (I guess now anet decided to start balancing around duels?). I doubt they spent much time dueling on CI mesmers, or other builds that take the clone death traits.

I guess we can say thanks for this kittening community, for this unreasonable change.
Everything was doing too well to be true.

Let’s just see how it is in game. I’m a fan of letting blind/dodge/block work across the board. It makes the game consistent.

I feel like people are overstating how often those effects will miss without any good evidence of real dps impact.

I main as mesmer and I say clone death traits evadeblae is really good fix makeing it really random as it supose to be I approve its good for mesmers

this trait was ment to be scaare offf so ppl dont kill ur clones not real damageing trait

baylock.1703:

I main as mesmer and I say clone death traits evadeblae is really good fix makeing it really random as it supose to be I approve its good for mesmers

this trait was ment to be scaare offf so ppl dont kill ur clones not real damageing trait

It was meant to punish people that want to spam their AA cleave…. Not really sure how evades matter but blocks and blinds WILL matter.

The only skills I could think that let people evade and attack at the same time are at Thief #3 skills, War GS, Ele FGS.
Ranger GS AA also has evade, but I think it will be too random to use as counter.
Guardians will benefit from Aegis.

The important question that somebody asked elsewhere is how will this affect Blind/Aegis/Retal spam.

Mesmer|Clone|Enemy
No |No |Affected
Yes |No | Will enemy eat condition, will the blind from Mesmer be removed?
No |Yes | Same questions as above.
Yes |Yes | Enemy won’t eat condition, will this remove the blind from the Mesmer?

The above table is for Blind. For Aegis the question is simple, will the on death effects strip the boom?

The final question is something to check after the patch.
If they are normalizing these traits to work like normal attacks, will they also trigger retal damage?

While I think individually the nerf to Debilitating Dissipation is ok and the other ones meh, I think overall I’d rather see clone death traits removed and replaced. They make for… weird gameplay. They essentially want you to play with not using the class mechanic, just like Phantasm-only specs I feel this is bad inherent design.

PU nerf we should cheer for that finally braindead builds are getting nerfed

clone death ,DD nerf im not so sure if it will hurt other builds .but confirmed anet don’t know CI build .
Mesmer is secret class in gw2 after all.

Just to check but you spent the first half explaining why PU and DD have been weakened and end with saying that more people will use it now?

Undodgable things are not good for the game. <- This is all I need to write.

block evade is fine but blind i dont get. Dont engi bombs hit if engi is blinded? Dont mines and wells hit if necro is blinded? Plus even if we consider the illusion a pet death should take priority and blind shouldnt work since the illusion is dead. I think the traits needed some tone down as they should only act as a deterent to make our opponents think which one is the real one b4 attacking. But atleast with blind engi and thief have it too easy.

the main problem is.. you cry when they buff you.. you cry when they nerf you.. people would have been better off just taking the buff and closing thier mouths. who begs to get themself nerfed on the forum.

this is a lesson to all the torment tears. torment isnt a problem to them.. but if you cry for 20 pages about pu they are going to nerf you. zip it.

Can anybody tell me if Death Nova is evadable and if blinded minions affect it? I see that it’s unblockable on the Wiki. It would be nice to know if this trait works the same, otherwise it makes the changes seem biased.

the changes are not biased.. necros didnt complain about thier own profession.. mesmers asked for their profession to be nerfed and tehy got it. necros didnt say minion master is a cornball spec i want it nerfed.. that would be dumb.

Clownmug.8357:

Can anybody tell me if Death Nova is evadable and if blinded minions affect it? I see that it’s unblockable on the Wiki. It would be nice to know if this trait works the same, otherwise it makes the changes seem biased.

AFAIK passive traits that activate were always unavoidable.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Evade

Mesmers “on death” traits may be the first ever to no longer apply.

squeaky wheel got the grease..

Carighan.6758:

While I think individually the nerf to Debilitating Dissipation is ok and the other ones meh, I think overall I’d rather see clone death traits removed and replaced. They make for… weird gameplay. They essentially want you to play with not using the class mechanic, just like Phantasm-only specs I feel this is bad inherent design.

You have to understand that clone death traits punish enemies for killing our class mechanic. Either they kill the clones so we can easily be seen or actually take the extra bit of brain power to figure out which is the real mesmer.

zaxon.6819:

the main problem is.. you cry when they buff you.. you cry when they nerf you.. people would have been better off just taking the buff and closing thier mouths. who begs to get themself nerfed on the forum.

this is a lesson to all the torment tears. torment isnt a problem to them.. but if you cry for 20 pages about pu they are going to nerf you. zip it.

I’m pretty sure you don’t play mesmer….

dandamanno.4136:

Clownmug.8357:

Can anybody tell me if Death Nova is evadable and if blinded minions affect it? I see that it’s unblockable on the Wiki. It would be nice to know if this trait works the same, otherwise it makes the changes seem biased.

AFAIK passive traits that activate were always unavoidable.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Evade

Mesmers “on death” traits may be the first ever to no longer apply.

That would be ridiculous if that holds true come the update… Anet just really can’t stand mesmers can they??

Coulter.2315:

Just to check but you spent the first half explaining why PU and DD have been weakened and end with saying that more people will use it now?

Undodgable things are not good for the game. <- This is all I need to write.

Actually yes, I do just this in my post. If you apply your reading comprehension skills to this post, you will realize that I argue that the reason why more people will run PU is due to the collateral nerfing of non PU based builds that take clone death traits. This is the real travesty in the proposed changes. Now that I have spelled it out for you, I will conclude by stating that if you want to actually take part in a real discussion you should probably also support your views with evidence.

Feaduin.7603:

Coulter.2315:

Just to check but you spent the first half explaining why PU and DD have been weakened and end with saying that more people will use it now?

Undodgable things are not good for the game. <- This is all I need to write.

Actually yes, I do just this in my post. If you apply your reading comprehension skills to this post, you will realize that I argue that the reason why more people will run PU is due to the collateral nerfing of non PU based builds that take clone death traits. This is the real travesty in the proposed changes. Now that I have spelled it out for you, I will conclude by stating that if you want to actually take part in a real discussion you should probably also support your views with evidence.

So you still think that them nerfing a build will make people play it more, not turn to other options? They made clone death avoidable because dodge is the primary mechanic of this game and these traits clearly need to have counterplay IF they are buffing 2 clone auto attacks.
I’m not sure what arguement you want to present against “Undodgable things are not good for the game.” but i’d love to hear it. By undodgable I mean things that happen during a dodge and STILL hit you – not something that cannot be dodged on reflex. (I can smell people wanting to read it the other way for subversive attacks)
I would point out Shatter will be buffed next patch – Sword or Staff and GS. Not just Shatter anyone wanting to use those weapons and scepter gets a buff. (The things you need to push buttons to get the effect of btw)

Thing is, coulter- we invest points into those traits because we expect them to work as stated. By on-death clone traits being emasculated, any build which invests into them is also neutered.

I think this is the first time that a passive, uncontrollable series of traits can be nullified by any class, essentially removing trait points from those builds which took them.

Feaduin.7603:

1. The 4-4-6 Condi/PU build was never OP in the fist place.

Sorry, but I should have stopped reading there…

What Coulter said: “Undodgable things are not good for the game”.

And btw: it is not like every class had an evade on autoattack. There are a few skills like blurred frenzy or Warrior GS3 which will allow players to destroy the clones without getting hit by the condis. But really, if they use these skills to destroy your clones, the trait is working as intended.

Please stop defending your lame build.

The crying over torment on scepter was an angle to nerf a dueling build. This one dueling build had roaming taking camps and yak slapping in wvw. The announcement to nerf this build has a dev stating they dueled using pu as a build and based upon that we have a change. This game is not based on 1v1 I assumed. The hysteria over something not in game torment on scepter really upset people? We didn’t even see it function. I have read this forums and I agree we need help. But how can we receive help when we disagree without playing, over buffs? Buffs or nerfs we need to stop crying and start playing.

cyyrix.6105:

The devs had complete tunnel vision on the clone death nerfs. Grouch said in RU that the clone death nerfs are meant to tone down PU builds. Then he mentioned all the time they spent dueling on PU to figure it out (I guess now anet decided to start balancing around duels?). I doubt they spent much time dueling on CI mesmers, or other builds that take the clone death traits.

OMG really? They should have replaced their balance team a long time ago. If I was this bad at my job I would be fired.

I kinda dont care about people wasting dodge because of a few stacks of bleeding or whatever lol Still works, I make more clones and more and more… will just take more time to get them down.
BUT, Ive read something about a change on clone generation from deceptive evasion after you reach 3. Wich would mean we couldnt sacrifice our clones anymore to activate on clone death effect.
Ive been looking for something to confirm this, can someone tell me?

zaxon.6819:

the main problem is.. you cry when they buff you.. you cry when they nerf you.. people would have been better off just taking the buff and closing thier mouths. who begs to get themself nerfed on the forum.

this is a lesson to all the torment tears. torment isnt a problem to them.. but if you cry for 20 pages about pu they are going to nerf you. zip it.

This. Seriously. This.

The worst problem is that according to polls, it wasn’t even the majority of the Mesmers complaining. It was the minority plus other professions crying about it. No matter how you look at it, the Mesmers were ‘nerfed’ because the minority threw a tantrum. Frankly, nobody has the right to be upset about this lol.

PU needed to be nerfed. I’m absolutely fine with this. The clone death issue is something we’ll need to see first hand. If you have to blind the clones themselves (which would make sense) then this isn’t nearly as bad as the QQers think. If you have to blind the Mesmer, we may need to adjust our gameplay a bit and thieves will be a bit more annoying than they already are.

The buffs will outweigh the minor nerfs. Everyone can stop the panic now.

I’ll start by admitting I don’t know mesmer condi builds very well… but…
Right now the general consensus seems to be that mesmer condi builds are all based on clone death, or just not very good, right? Glamours were nerfed long ago, phantasm bleed based are uncommon, shatter just not good enough.

So now if they’re bringing some of those up to improve build diversity, with the scepter torment and IE fix, this is the sensible thing to knock down.

It looks like a pretty harsh drop, so maybe they went a little bit too far. Even so, the underlying logic seems sound.

I don’t mind knocking down. Just wish it was done on a step by step basis. If the buffs/bug fixes work then great.

Noah.9654:

zaxon.6819:

the main problem is.. you cry when they buff you.. you cry when they nerf you.. people would have been better off just taking the buff and closing thier mouths. who begs to get themself nerfed on the forum.

this is a lesson to all the torment tears. torment isnt a problem to them.. but if you cry for 20 pages about pu they are going to nerf you. zip it.

This. Seriously. This.

The worst problem is that according to polls, it wasn’t even the majority of the Mesmers complaining. It was the minority plus other professions crying about it. No matter how you look at it, the Mesmers were ‘nerfed’ because the minority threw a tantrum. Frankly, nobody has the right to be upset about this lol.

PU needed to be nerfed. I’m absolutely fine with this. The clone death issue is something we’ll need to see first hand. If you have to blind the clones themselves (which would make sense) then this isn’t nearly as bad as the QQers think. If you have to blind the Mesmer, we may need to adjust our gameplay a bit and thieves will be a bit more annoying than they already are.

The buffs will outweigh the minor nerfs. Everyone can stop the panic now.

PU is a 1v1, roaming build.
In sPvP, you will not see this build outside of hot join or SQ.
In WvW, this will be nothing more than a roaming build that kittens players foolish enough to fight one.

Since when did dueling even matter in balancing? Are you telling Anet shifted their focus to 1v1 jerking fest over coordinated team-play?

PU has barely to no value in team-play and Anet just lopped off a limb for whatever crazy reason…

I don’t understand crippling a build like this even for the scepter change cause who is going to seriously think the scepter will become “team viable” after the torment change?

I love the changes to clone on death. It provides a counter play to the currently un counterable clone on deaths traits. As of right now, you can’t block, dodge, or invuln through clone on death. This change is going to separate the good mesmers from the bad, so I understand all the QQ about these changes.

PS: I have mained mesmer from the beta.

Apparently all the qqers on this forum that managed to kitten ourselves before even firing the first slow deadly torment scepter ball.

Anet should step up and make all passive traits evadable/blind to encourage active game play. Or maybe this is a punishment for actually crying over a buff.

Noah.9654:

zaxon.6819:

the main problem is.. you cry when they buff you.. you cry when they nerf you.. people would have been better off just taking the buff and closing thier mouths. who begs to get themself nerfed on the forum.

this is a lesson to all the torment tears. torment isnt a problem to them.. but if you cry for 20 pages about pu they are going to nerf you. zip it.

This. Seriously. This.

The worst problem is that according to polls, it wasn’t even the majority of the Mesmers complaining. It was the minority plus other professions crying about it. No matter how you look at it, the Mesmers were ‘nerfed’ because the minority threw a tantrum. Frankly, nobody has the right to be upset about this lol.

PU needed to be nerfed. I’m absolutely fine with this. The clone death issue is something we’ll need to see first hand. If you have to blind the clones themselves (which would make sense) then this isn’t nearly as bad as the QQers think. If you have to blind the Mesmer, we may need to adjust our gameplay a bit and thieves will be a bit more annoying than they already are.

The buffs will outweigh the minor nerfs. Everyone can stop the panic now.

I agree as Ive said on the other thread, we need buffs then they buff us, then mesmers complain, I mean for other profs its understandable but mesmers are also the cause of these unnecessary nerfs. For me this is the REAL Cancer, why cant we just be happy as a class?

UP-Whine-Buff-Whine-Nerfs-Whine-Never ending spiral. Sad but True.

Heh. Same thing happens in any other class forum, I’d reckon. Either:

• The buffs aren’t enough, and QQ results
• There were more nerfs than buffs. Refer to Directory #QQ
• There were just nerfs, and that … Yes, QQ.

As for myself, I still maintain the following: There was going to be a nerf, period. For crying out loud, folks … Anet even nerfed Warrior, and some of ya think Mesmer was going to only get buffs? Funny part is, a lot of the “Nays,” RE: Torment on Scepter were largely pointing out that the “addition” still doesn’t effect the main issues with the weapon entire … namely that it’s still going to be slow as all get-out.

But what do I know, anyway? I’m just a guy who’’d rather see Mesmer return to being the Confusion-pimp around these parts. /shrug

I was pretty negative on the changes when I first heard of them because I don’t like when they indirectly nerf like this. However, as I think it over this really does hurt PU most.

I don’t really care about the loss of the bleed stack. When I run condi duelist/sharper images and winds of chaos are my main sources of bleed, and will probably not notice the loss of one stack from a 1/3 chance ability. When running power I grab these to ensure there are conditions on my target to pump Warlock’s damage, so also no problem losing a stack.

As far as the block/blind/evade change, I don’t like anything that can’t be evaded, that should be pretty universal. Sure, chew up your blocks and evades on my clones popping, works for me. Blind might really suck, but afaik blind causes other aoe attacks to miss so this is probably also consistent.

Í’m just confused how blinding would ever prevent the attack. It is a radius based aoe that is not generated by targeting. I legitimately don’t understand what the reasoning for applying this to clones is other than an attempt to nerf it.

Arahain.7425:

Feaduin.7603:

1. The 4-4-6 Condi/PU build was never OP in the fist place.

Sorry, but I should have stopped reading there…

What Coulter said: “Undodgable things are not good for the game”.

And btw: it is not like every class had an evade on autoattack. There are a few skills like blurred frenzy or Warrior GS3 which will allow players to destroy the clones without getting hit by the condis. But really, if they use these skills to destroy your clones, the trait is working as intended.

Please stop defending your lame build.

I am sorry for posting a controversial thesis, from now on I will only post tautologies so that you will not have to read or respond to supporting arguments.

As for the argument that skills which can not be dodged are bad for the game, I can see where this sentiment is coming from. Dodging is a means of giving the player agency in avoiding damage. I can not, for example, choose when a Mesmer shatters, a Warrior uses 100 Blades, or an Elementalist uses Burning Speed, but I can choose to save a dodge for when these skills are used. This is good for the game and promotes active combat. However, when it comes to things like clone death procs or Retaliation I already have agency in choosing whether to take the damage or not; therefore, I do not need a dodge to avoid this damage. If I don’t want to take clone death damage I can employ strategies which limit AE and Cleave usage. Adding a dodge/block to this simply throws the need to significantly vary tactics depending on the engagement out the window. As a supporting example, it would be pretty silly if while I was playing my Elementalist I could cast Meteor Shower on a zerg that just stacked Retaliation then pop Arcane Shield and dodge roll around to avoid all that damage.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Í’m just confused how blinding would ever prevent the attack. It is a radius based aoe that is not generated by targeting. I legitimately don’t understand what the reasoning for applying this to clones is other than an attempt to nerf it.

I totally agree

blakdoxa.7520:

Noah.9654:

zaxon.6819:

the main problem is.. you cry when they buff you.. you cry when they nerf you.. people would have been better off just taking the buff and closing thier mouths. who begs to get themself nerfed on the forum.

this is a lesson to all the torment tears. torment isnt a problem to them.. but if you cry for 20 pages about pu they are going to nerf you. zip it.

This. Seriously. This.

The worst problem is that according to polls, it wasn’t even the majority of the Mesmers complaining. It was the minority plus other professions crying about it. No matter how you look at it, the Mesmers were ‘nerfed’ because the minority threw a tantrum. Frankly, nobody has the right to be upset about this lol.

PU needed to be nerfed. I’m absolutely fine with this. The clone death issue is something we’ll need to see first hand. If you have to blind the clones themselves (which would make sense) then this isn’t nearly as bad as the QQers think. If you have to blind the Mesmer, we may need to adjust our gameplay a bit and thieves will be a bit more annoying than they already are.

The buffs will outweigh the minor nerfs. Everyone can stop the panic now.

PU is a 1v1, roaming build.
In sPvP, you will not see this build outside of hot join or SQ.
In WvW, this will be nothing more than a roaming build that kittens players foolish enough to fight one.

Since when did dueling even matter in balancing? Are you telling Anet shifted their focus to 1v1 jerking fest over coordinated team-play?

PU has barely to no value in team-play and Anet just lopped off a limb for whatever crazy reason…

I don’t understand crippling a build like this even for the scepter change cause who is going to seriously think the scepter will become “team viable” after the torment change?

This i totally agree.

denis.9487:

Anet should step up and make all passive traits evadable/blind to encourage active game play. Or maybe this is a punishment for actually crying over a buff.

I agree for the most part but not blind. You mean a thief or engi should be able to blind their way through aoe like wells/mines/bombs/clones/minnions?

I have always considered death traits to be a deterrent to mindlessly maw through clones to keep a mesmer from building up clones for shatter or just attack w/e cause they cba to find the real one. It was all about psychological demotivation more than actual punishment since clone death on non condi builds is only a minor hidrance.

Now with scepter clones ie buff and clone death nerfs i can see anet pushing players into aoeing down clones instead, even in melee range. Thats what i dont like tbh. What i would like is to make clones more resilient to compensate.

blakdoxa.7520:

Noah.9654:

This. Seriously. This.

The worst problem is that according to polls, it wasn’t even the majority of the Mesmers complaining. It was the minority plus other professions crying about it. No matter how you look at it, the Mesmers were ‘nerfed’ because the minority threw a tantrum. Frankly, nobody has the right to be upset about this lol.

PU needed to be nerfed. I’m absolutely fine with this. The clone death issue is something we’ll need to see first hand. If you have to blind the clones themselves (which would make sense) then this isn’t nearly as bad as the QQers think. If you have to blind the Mesmer, we may need to adjust our gameplay a bit and thieves will be a bit more annoying than they already are.

The buffs will outweigh the minor nerfs. Everyone can stop the panic now.

PU is a 1v1, roaming build.
In sPvP, you will not see this build outside of hot join or SQ.
In WvW, this will be nothing more than a roaming build that kittens players foolish enough to fight one.

Since when did dueling even matter in balancing? Are you telling Anet shifted their focus to 1v1 jerking fest over coordinated team-play?

PU has barely to no value in team-play and Anet just lopped off a limb for whatever crazy reason…

I don’t understand crippling a build like this even for the scepter change cause who is going to seriously think the scepter will become “team viable” after the torment change?

I’m not sure what you’re refuting, but I absolutely agree that PU builds are terrible in sPvP and tPvP (they are only a minor annoyance on hotjoin).

Apparently, when ANet was looking for ways to solve the PU issue, they were testing via 1v1s and duels. Why, I have absolutely no idea.

My reasoning for wanting PU to be nerfed was just for the sake of balance in WvW (many other changes should probably take place too). I feel like ANet could have nerfed PU a lot harder and I’m happy that they didn’t. People may now even stop calling PU a ‘cheese build.’

i just quoted blakdoxa tbh. And i dont see any buffs other than those aimed to condition specs unless you consider bug fixes as buffs. I agree we will wait and see but i just dont like the direction anet is taking . I think mes is the only profession along with ranger that can have their mechanic countered by killing their pets.

“for the sake of balance in wvw” there is no balance in wvw.. and pu dosent run travelers runes.. that is your balance.. a super slow low pressure roamer.. is… super slow.. and has low pressure. see the balance.

zaxon.6819:

“for the sake of balance in wvw” there is no balance in wvw.. and pu dosent run travelers runes.. that is your balance.. a super slow low pressure roamer.. is… super slow.. and has low pressure. see the balance.

I know that PU Mesmers have no mobility, but then why do people complain about it? Again, this train of thought it from what I assume ANet must be thinking; if players complain about it, then there must be a problem?

the vocal minority on the forums… the main enemy of the mesmers balance at this point is the people on the forums complaining about things that they have not even play tested.

Feaduin.7603:

Arahain.7425:

Feaduin.7603:

1. The 4-4-6 Condi/PU build was never OP in the fist place.

Sorry, but I should have stopped reading there…

What Coulter said: “Undodgable things are not good for the game”.

And btw: it is not like every class had an evade on autoattack. There are a few skills like blurred frenzy or Warrior GS3 which will allow players to destroy the clones without getting hit by the condis. But really, if they use these skills to destroy your clones, the trait is working as intended.

Please stop defending your lame build.

I am sorry for posting a controversial thesis, from now on I will only post tautologies so that you will not have to read or respond to supporting arguments.

As for the argument that skills which can not be dodged are bad for the game, I can see where this sentiment is coming from. Dodging is a means of giving the player agency in avoiding damage. I can not, for example, choose when a Mesmer shatters, a Warrior uses 100 Blades, or an Elementalist uses Burning Speed, but I can choose to save a dodge for when these skills are used. This is good for the game and promotes active combat. However, when it comes to things like clone death procs or Retaliation I already have agency in choosing whether to take the damage or not; therefore, I do not need a dodge to avoid this damage. If I don’t want to take clone death damage I can employ strategies which limit AE and Cleave usage. Adding a dodge/block to this simply throws the need to significantly vary tactics depending on the engagement out the window. As a supporting example, it would be pretty silly if while I was playing my Elementalist I could cast Meteor Shower on a zerg that just stacked Retaliation then pop Arcane Shield and dodge roll around to avoid all that damage.

So your agency in beating DD is not destroying the clones, they just buffed Staff and Scepter clone attacks – can you see now why these buffs and nerfs came together? It leaves a window open in the room of kitten ed if you do, kitten ed if you don’t.

This change is good for Mesmer strategy and game play anyway – we have access to blurred frenzy and shatter these are aoes and one can be used mid dodge. If anything our class comes out of these changes with more tools to beat Condi Mesmer.

Oh…Well..maybe next time the mesmer community wont cry about a buff…

You asked for a nerf, you cried about a mesmer spec despite the devs throwing you a bone, this is the outcome. Maybe next time the devs decide to be nice to us. Instead of throwing a tantrum and following someones blind crusade against there own profession. You’ll sit back, and enjoy the buff.
You asked for this, deal with it

Solori.6025:

Oh…Well..maybe next time the mesmer community wont cry about a buff…

You asked for a nerf, you cried about a mesmer spec despite the devs throwing you a bone, this is the outcome. Maybe next time the devs decide to be nice to us. Instead of throwing a tantrum and following someones blind crusade against there own profession. You’ll sit back, and enjoy the buff.
You asked for this, deal with it

Where are these people that voted for a nerf? Was it the last CDI?

Also I’m seeing people only talk about PU… What about other mesmer builds affected by these changes or was this community more stagnant than I believed…

blakdoxa.7520:

Solori.6025:

Oh…Well..maybe next time the mesmer community wont cry about a buff…

You asked for a nerf, you cried about a mesmer spec despite the devs throwing you a bone, this is the outcome. Maybe next time the devs decide to be nice to us. Instead of throwing a tantrum and following someones blind crusade against there own profession. You’ll sit back, and enjoy the buff.
You asked for this, deal with it

Where are these people that voted for a nerf? Was it the last CDI?

Also I’m seeing people only talk about PU… What about other mesmer builds affected by these changes or was this community more stagnant than I believed…

Do i need to link you to every thread about the mesmer changes in the forum or are you actually gonna read a few?

They have 1 in this sub forum where people voted on Scepter AA and the majority voted against it because of fear that the passive nature of PU would be stronger.

Never say the devs don’t listen to our feedback.
Because they “shaved” the passive nature of mesmer.
For everyone.

because I like history I’ll link you a few threads..

Maybe i can even find the stream from helseth that people took to heart