Guild Wars 2

or i can say pros and cons to compare to other class,

first 1 is from me..

[Skill]Mantra of Concentration MoC
if mantra of concentration patched to AoE, i choosed those skills to that can be compared mean close skills
MoC & Guard``Stand Your Ground``
Untraited
MoC
Pros:

• x2 stun breaker, 2instant use

Cons:

• less1sec stability and -5sec another boon(Retal)(SYG has 5sec stab +5sec Retal)
• not instant use 2.45 sec more activation time
• 0.45sec more Cd if spammed(minimum cd)(SYG 30sec + 1 activation , MoC 25sec + 2.45sec activation+2sec power leak +2power leak cooldown) + from after channeled to use of all power leaks

imo: SYG wins.. there is no reward for 2.45sec activation of MoC, less stability, no other extra boon and squish mesmer to can not use comfortable as guard example in wvw for large scale fights or ofc gvg where needed stability as front lines and practical it let me 1 stability use for my other skills..

if i traited it fully.. Dom XI Dueling VI, VII and InsX exp 30 20 0 20 0

so Dueling VI
Pros:
400 armor vs Activation Reward +%11 Damage Reduction + if ve more mantras more Sync(more u can use that trait)

• if i ve 2400armor(Damage Reduction 23.5%) it goes 2800(%34.43) on channeling
  Not: Guardian has 217more armor as being Heavy armor than Mesmer light armor and 4277 base health point difference 217armor as naked %13.68 damage reduction where as mesmer have %0

Cons:

• Restriction to use Adept skill trait requirement – (and lack of other traits)

Mantras Dueling VI and InsX in topic with Activation 2.45 sec
Pros:

• if not in cc environment vs low to mid dps(damage reduction) and inspirationX high heal put or hps (i ll edit later for math of it)

Cons:

• Cc environment(getting VERY HIGH chance of interupted)
• Burst damages (u cant dodge or use survival skills(except instant skills))
• unconnection time (action per minute APM, lack of use other skills)

imo: is not rewarded in effectiveness. exp: where i want to use tank for damage reduction..or just use skill i can get still interupts.. i ll lack of mobility, dodge, actions.. unconnection time and bad sync (example asked for veil or tw and i was using mantra where 1 sec makes differences u should cancel mantra or fail for late.. so the time since u cancel channel of mantra to where u canceled is…) still giving traits..

Harmanous Mantras MoC vs untraited SYG
Pros:

• +1sec stability time
• 3x stunbreaker
• Harmanous effect all mantras

Cons:

• Restriction to use Grand Master Trait (lack of variation of other builds and lack of other traits)
• not shout (example cant use soldier runes)or pure of voice guard trait

while u dont need to trait SYG..

we can compare one of eles heal support vs mesmer mantras in effectiveness with cons pros..
or compare roles of mesmer as maybe dps support tank
can compare mesmers skills traits..
builds maybe mesmer vs mesmer

i couldnt find mesmer that usefull, effective than others in most situations could u help me to find :P example for competitive fights with large to mid scaled numbers 20, 25, or 30? ok(not for veil and portal)

I don’t understand the point of this thread.

we can use this tread as to make some compare things,
maybe skills , or builds, or roles, etc what u want to share..

i tried to compare 1 of the skill MoC vs guardians stability skill.. just for template..

or maybe u can give 2 different mesmer build who focus/role for DPS that we can see effectiveness who can give more damage, or etc etc
or one of the burst build of mesmer compare to thief burst..
or can mantras heal effectiveness be compared to eles heal combos

would u like to add something?

ok i ll copy one of my old one here..

Mantra Glass Canon VS Shatter wvw

mantra glass canon: http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/mesmer/?4.0|1.1g.h2|c.1c.h1h.d.1c.h1j|1n.7e.1g.7e.1n.7e.1g.7e.1n.7e.1g.7e|2t.0.2v.0.21k.0.3s.0.2s.0.1c.67|u3ab.u2ab.0.0.a3|69.7|32.3j.3d.3g.0|e

shatter build: http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/mesmer/?4.0|1.1g.h1h|c.1c.h17.d.1c.h1j|1c.7d.1g.7d.1c.7d.1g.7d.1c.7d.1g.7d|2t.0.21k.0.2v.0.3s.0.2s.0.1c.67|k1a.k4a.0.0.u68b|15.1|31.3b.39.3d.0|e

so whats the difference:

Mantra Ranged Canon,
survivability:

• -%11.27 healtpool
• -ipersona (for anti bursts mostly) -%17.40 less recharche of distortation
• -iinvigoration skill (recharge all shatter skills trait)
• +self heal per second ( %117.5 to ….. %61) [every 13 sec can self heal with 7860 – every 21sec self heal 5560 to … 7480) -1.45sec more channel time than Ether
• +Stability 3*1 2sec (MoR cd 25 sec) -1.45 sec more channel time rather than other skills
• self clean 3*2 total6 cleanse (MoR cd 20sec) -1.45sec more channel rather than other skills

damage:

• no buff (weapon stacks, damage multipliers, fury, might), (just food and secondary and 3mights(cuz of sigil))
• +%51 more avarage damage with 5845.71 effective power(no mantra damage multier or clone damage multiplier added)
• +phantasms do %102 more avarage damage than shatter mesmer
• -phantasms have %20 less recharge
• +mindwrack still has %21 more avarage damage
• -mindwrack has %17.4 less recharge time and -iinvigoration trait miss
• -cant burst kittenter mesmer -ipersona
• +confusions stack if clones destroyed
• -no might stack on shatters
• if we add mantras damage multiplier, and clones damage multiplier: total +%21 damage multiplier
• +%82.89 more avarage damage with 7067 effective power than heavy shatter mesmer

(if we add more.. as stacks, fury, some 12 mights)
effective power goes 10284 (it means %166 more) than regular shatter mesmer
it means if used izerker with fully buffed mantra mesmer it ll be the same as who 3 shatter mesmers used same time izerker with no(fury,stack,12mights) buffed
(%206 more phantasm damage)
or it means both mesmers are fully buffed same while mantra mesmer use 1 izerker needed 2 mesmers who use izerker to do same damage as mantra mesmer

support:

• -no glamours, no blinds on glamours

extras:

• food with steal health on crits is some nice
• (it means with fury it gives avaragely 160hp with every attack with 1sec cd)
• instead of sigil of force, fire is better damage
• instead of sholar runes i use now stregth, i ll check does it ll be fair to take scholar(mantra of recovery some help to put your healh above %90 health)
• staff can be used with gs and halting strike has some bigger [~0.99 skill co-efficient] damage on inturpt
• skill lag does not effect to prepared mantras :d
• torch can be used on if focused..
• reflection does not effected from mesmers
• readying mantras before fights on regroups, if its not urgent,
• better mobility, cleanse crippling, stability
• doesnt risky kitten ter, cuz of not go in for burst to bomb, and dont delayed to regroup but it needs more back protection than shatter mesmer..

I’m not gonna discuss every point you stated, but just saying some general points

• If you wanna go support (AoE heal, AoE regeneration, AoE stability, AoE clean), don’t go Domination 30. Just a waste of points. Instead go Dueling 20 and Inspiration 20.
• The only Build which uses Domination 30 for an additional mantra charge is the PvP mantra burst build (30/30/0/0/0 +10).
• Devs said Stability mantra will get an AoE effect. But they didn’t say it’ll be an AoE stun breaker. And 2s are really weak. You need alot boon duration for that.
• Dueling VI – Protected Mantras: useless.
• Don’t use scholar runes or sigil of force if you intend to damage with your phantasms

Nretep.2564:

I’m not gonna discuss every point you stated, but just saying some general points

• If you wanna go support (AoE heal, AoE regeneration, AoE stability, AoE clean), don’t go Domination 30. Just a waste of points. Instead go Dueling 20 and Inspiration 20.
• The only Build which uses Domination 30 for an additional mantra charge is the PvP mantra burst build (30/30/0/0/0 +10).
• Devs said Stability mantra will get an AoE effect. But they didn’t say it’ll be an AoE stun breaker. And 2s are really weak. You need alot boon duration for that.
• Dueling VI – Protected Mantras: useless.
• Don’t use scholar runes or sigil of force if you intend to damage with your phantasms

ty for reply.. yess.. it was just to temlpate how we can do compare..
i copy paste from my guilds forum where it is very 3 4 months old ?

anyway as i check now, with theory craft it was for maximize dps.. with no support..
to can see maximum Effective power.. as my ascendent items are different now..

again thanks, your replie give some nice details..

Now compairing apples and oranges:

Both are fruits – check!
both fruits have vitamins – check!
both fruits grow on trees – check!
you get more juice out of an orange than an apple – so the apple must be underpowered!

Maybe a quote make things clearer:

You can’t cherry pick skills and compare them between professions in an effort to “balance.” With your logic there should be only one profession in the entire game.

blutstein.2468:

Now compairing apples and oranges:

Both are fruits – check!
both fruits have vitamins – check!
both fruits grow on trees – check!
you get more juice out of an orange than an apple – so the apple must be underpowered!

Maybe a quote make things clearer:

You can’t cherry pick skills and compare them between professions in an effort to “balance.” With your logic there should be only one profession in the entire game.

:) nice..

what i get with this, apple is not effective as orange to get juice..

i think your topic is lack of detail.. goal example or the environment..
is something as this.. imo

in GvG (competitive large scaled team oriented groups vs competitive large scaled team oriented groups) Guild versus Guild in same rules, same numbers and same environment etc.., with goal of destroy of each other..

Mesmer is a class as other classes that selectable (ex:War guard ele nec)
There is no restriction of taking how many mesmers in your group as others

• so it comes to me why mesmer instead of others?
  - it should sync your goups better effectiveness..
• Then How and why in that situations..
  and i compare, search.. Knowladge is power.. + self sufficient + interest

if u start from some where it open open open other topics..
example.. continue from above..

• answer can why Mesmer? be have variaty of mesmer has reflect has this this this
  so i discuss and compare.. as in my experiance ele necro theif war guard do this this this as primiary when how where.. while doing that that what they do secondory or third role how/what they do sync to get better effectiveness…

after 1 year passed i am asking for co efficienties.. why still dont have while they are still in game mechanic as a major role (and missing/wrong tooltips on skils etc..) any reason ?

Why not brainstorm.. just give up from mesmer? while i played all my time play of as mesmer and in fair experiance(competitive play and testing) then when i play another class i feel more effective in as those groups.. or should i left game as my all other competitive game players who are mostly since start of gw1 and still leaving game friends.. we start distrupt wvw, as for looking challenging Fair mathces then a net making orb ageddon without we can cancel that buff that destroyed our gvg.. i already retired as well from game now, compaining or discussing things for fair things.. thats why it would be better to brain storm on discusiing comparing things as a teplate of with topics as roles or pros cons..

respect your opinion, but i think different as in that quote..

I don’t see the point of this thread. You just can’t compare specific abilities.

topic is not ability compariation..

maybe i am not good at making good topics but u can compare anything related to mesmer in topic here? or should i better just open treads 1 by 1 ? dunno..

maybe compare,
F shatters orders in full combo ?

example u ve 3 clones readied (last one is from Sword #3 skill)
and u ve mirror images

1) * swap

• sword 2
• F3
• Mirror images
• F1
  or
  2) * swap
• Sword #2
• F1
• F3
• Mirror images
• F2

-What damage out put can be different?
-Or what can be etc.. etc.. differences ?
-Pros Cons?
-Sinergy sync?

@ Xavi.6591

the point of this thread is a complain of the next patch 15/10.

The heart of this patch is to allow mesmer to play a sort of bunker to keep point in spvp (by using mantras). Don t expect something for WvWvW mesmers. As Azolina i m really disapointed by the last few patchs. I think in large group it s better to play an other class at this moment.

For gvg you ll be happy to know that the dev ll put an arena on jumping puzzle of Eternal Battleground, and an easy access by B for gvg matches.

Kwaz Vizunah Square

chat.4062:

@ Xavi.6591

the point of this thread is a complain of the next patch 15/10.

The heart of this patch is to allow mesmer to play a sort of bunker to keep point in spvp (by using mantras). Don t expect something for WvWvW mesmers. As Azolina i m really disapointed by the last few patchs. I think in large group it s better to play an other class at this moment.

For gvg you ll be happy to know that the dev ll put an arena on jumping puzzle of Eternal Battleground, and an easy access by B for gvg matches.

Kwaz Vizunah Square

yess yes i ve already got the sexy news.. ty u for point it, chat.. they start to listen gvg community that wvw is not the eng game.. gvg is the end game..

i would had some questions to devs.. what was the reason to nerf BF.. to not meta shatters? at least be logical accept that u ve large scale fight groups comminuty, game is not anymore xpvp.. balance it without horseglasses.. or why phantasms are hitting really hard.. however they can die with fields and random #1 attacks.. ? risk/reward factor? what is the logic.. with that.. anyway lets see restorative mantras..

Restorative Mantras

Combo: MoP MoR MoP (+200healing Power)

http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/3582/yi1x.png

Total 16 Mantras 16*2700=43200/59=732.20HPS aeo others
4 MoR +21600 more self heal = 1098.305 hps self
%66 time on channel in 59sec.

However Best effectiveness spam usage MoP MoR MoP in goal of heal per second(HPS)..
= 8.15 sec total and 8100Hp aeo Hps= 981.81 with(200 Healing Power)(with 1450 Healing power=1163.63 Hps [%18.51 more])
This combo 6.30 seconds cd..
and %66 on channeling (out of action)

if one of ele can do combo as this: it was before last patch dunno how is different now..
Eles combo (300hp): 45sec cd with 11sec execute heal 13960 ( and 19079 on yourself ) Health Points to your allies + 9 condition removes %20 channel time %80 free
Mesmer combo: 6.30 sec cd with 8.15 execute channeling heal 8.100( and 13500 on yourself) Hp to allieas +damage %66 channel time %33 free

Mesmer : 8100*8.135=65893,5 Heal all / 120 = 549.1125 it is %113 more than 300 healing power ele( mesmer have 200 healing power)
if it was 1300 healing power = 9429*8.135=76704,915/120= 639 hps its just %16 more than 200 heal power mesmer(from 1300 hp ele %62 more)

ele has %230 more apm than mesmer

effectiveness heal (if there %100 apm environment mean there is no slacking, no delay, no lag, no regroup,have always action without delay, etc.. etc..)
(300healing ele) hps/20=12,8571
(200healing mes) =8,32048.. %50 less than ele

(1300healing ele)=19,6925
(1300healing mes)=9,684954.. %103 less than ele

in conculation in my opinion:

• mesmers dont need healing power as eles effectivenes of healing power attirubute much more with eles..
• and if get protected mantras trait u will have 266.66 armor always
• if environments action higher eles effectiveness decrease however mesmers increase
• MoR is more effective than Ether Feast.. in hps if spammed

• How harmanous and mantra works
  1 – Mantra channel activation.. 2.45sec
  2 – insta use of power return
  3 – 1 sec cd of 2nd use of power return
  4 – 1 more sec after last(2nd) use of power return then MoR starts cooldown 10 sec(mantra mastery make it 8sec)

*example of use of MoR and MoP
1- Channel MoP after 2.45 sec(it gives heal aeo and self) i can start
2 – channel MoR, and can use power spike as a free action while channeling MoR, after 2.45sec i can start
3 – channel MoP again, and however while channeling MoP i can use Power Spike as a free action
-MoR has 10 sec cooldown and +1 for +1 for Power returns so 12 sec..
12sec-2.75sec(its MoP)= 9.15 sec i need ti can start MoR again However i start my combo With MoP so it ll 9.15sec – 2.45sec = 6.5sec (between estimate times it needs to start combo MoP, MoR, MoP) why i wait 6.30 sec to use this combo again instead of can spam more 2 MoP in 6.30 sec (i try to decrease cons of channel time and can use my others skills)

- i point.. example: at bunker(exp: there is non stop incoming damage as ranged zvz or by the arrow rains, MoP MoR MoP effects better, (becaouse u dont have problem with stability and u dont have burst spikes on u)
- i need to try more as well at close range combats (as assoulting, or try to penetrate) MoR MoP MoC(Mantra of Concentration/stability) works well
- if u comfortable with change any of your trait to harmonous mantras MoR effect nice..
- as i told altough with no healing power expect +200Healing Power mesmers can heal %39.43 more(with MoP MoR MoP combo) than with +1300 than support ele as drq`s combo..

exp: make a fantasy 30 man group with 6 mesmers with mantras MoP and MoR with +200 healing power, group walk as a 1 group and always stability
and we have foe as 30 man with balanced builds(incoming damage ll balanced) so 6 mermers can heal 3294,675heal per second and can use his other skills rarely it means 6 mermers can heal in 10 seconds 32940,675 to 5ppl around +self.. of course we have 24 balanced classes..

continue..

Mantras heal effectiveness imo with MoP MoR MoP combo,
cons:
-lost 1 trait (Restorative Mantras)
-lost 1 skill slot (MoP Mantra of Pain)
-it needs stability on where has CC Conditions
-needs more clicks with buttons
-hardest to play as needs best timing situational
-effectives decrease if we regroup (till from out of combat to enter combat again) more than 6.30sec passes time.. as compare with apm(action per minute)
-can not target aeo ( close burst 300 range or 600 range)
-Healing power doesnt affect much (2600*0.2HP)

pros:
+MoR heal self more than Ether Feast ( between %91….%179) +heal others +2700

• MoR works better with (_10cd active on heal as Alturism Rune)
• MoR works better with Mender`s Purify trait..
  +Variable traits to effect Mantras
  Grandmaster Trait XI Harmonious Mantra – Mantras can be activated three times before needing to be channeled again.
  *Adept Trait VI Protected Mantras – Gain up to 400 toughness while channeling mantras.
  *Master Trait VII Mantra Mastery – Mantras recharge 20% faster.
  *Master Trait X Restorative Mantras – Heal allies when you cast a mantra.
  +Huge heal out put(with 200healing power 549.1125 heal per second)
  +MoP (power spike) 2324 base damage (1200range)

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Healing_Signet

200 healing power Healing signet 402HPS
-%173 (less HPS) than MoP MoR MoP spam
1450 healing power 457HPS , +%18.5 more hps than 200Healing power
1450 HP Healing signet, -%150 less hps than 1450 Mop mor mop

1450 Healing Power, Healing signet vs MoP MoR MoP same HP
HPS / APS

0Healing power Mop mor mop(888) hps %126 more hps than 0 Healing signet (392)
however, HPS/APS Mop Mor Mop 888/4(channel time %66, free time %33) vs 392

Healing Signet has more effectivenes as HPS/APM %76.5 more than mesmer`s Mop mor mop in self hps

if MoP Mor MoP self + aeo heal per sec. effectiveness/ APM vs HS(healing signet)
[710.50(hps aoe)/4] + [888(hps self)/4] / 392(HS) = 1,019456935316499
this Mesmer will be %2 more effective(minimum)
if aeo can trigger max to 4 targets, + self
[710.50(hps aoe)/4] + [888(hps self)/4*4] / 392(HS)
this mesmer will be %171 more effective (maximum)
/
getting % interupted,
% of cant dodge, (except blink yeah its instant), mobility
how u late for sync
+
u can smoke while challenging
or scratch yourself or more concentrate on other things foes overwiev of fight or drink

so how about the mana, no sorry,
harmanous traited mesmer + variation builds VS example: sword/horn, hammer group oriented WAR`s effectiveness,

Just realized that most of this thread is you talking to, well, yourself. ._.

cuz nobody has anything to say ? am i wrong with these.. and

edit 1st reply: MoR Concentration vs SYG
MoR is 240 range (range is big as nullfield.. but close burst(near u[120range far from u])
SYG is 600 RANGE has more than 2x range than MoC

MoR is not stun breaker to aeo, just himself
SYG yes *verification requried.. probably true

from me if i spec on stability i would roll for Guardian, better overall in everything in large scaled organized groups..

Total 16 Mantras 16*2700=43200/59=732.20HPS aeo others

I tought Mantras heal on charge, not on activation … ? o.o

at the end of channel.. u start channel mantra after 2.45sec the time channel finish it ll heal AoE i mean Restorative Mantras