Compared to Reaper, how is this for DPS?
I love the discussions about DPS where no one brings data. Nothing like having a discussion about a quantitative aspect of the game … qualitatively.
Can anyone tell us where Mesmer ranks currently, using meta build (or whatever you want to call it) for DPS in a team-instance content, like raids or dungeons?
BTW, the OP didn’t even specify what kind of PVE content he’s talking about so there’s that as well. I know all the pro people are going to simply assume he’s talking raids but the simple nature of his post gives me the suspicion he’s not.
I believe I’ve seen Pyro and a couple of others do number crunches off hybrid mesmer.
And the max damage was 17k DPS, if I remember correctly.
Trying to find the threads, haven’t found them yet.The flaw here, is if he isn’t talking about raids, mesmer is horrible at trash mobs.
You won’t get anywhere near the 17k DPS mark, as you need your 3 phantasms to hit that.If its trash mobs would’nt it just be best to shatter or is shatter that weak?
Shatter is just that weak. It also means you need to get illusions up, and PvE builds that are optimizing for damage don’t have a lot of ways to produce illusions that aren’t semi-long cooldown phantasms.
I love the discussions about DPS where no one brings data. Nothing like having a discussion about a quantitative aspect of the game … qualitatively.
Can anyone tell us where Mesmer ranks currently, using meta build (or whatever you want to call it) for DPS in a team-instance content, like raids or dungeons?
BTW, the OP didn’t even specify what kind of PVE content he’s talking about so there’s that as well. I know all the pro people are going to simply assume he’s talking raids but the simple nature of his post gives me the suspicion he’s not.
I believe I’ve seen Pyro and a couple of others do number crunches off hybrid mesmer.
And the max damage was 17k DPS, if I remember correctly.
Trying to find the threads, haven’t found them yet.The flaw here, is if he isn’t talking about raids, mesmer is horrible at trash mobs.
You won’t get anywhere near the 17k DPS mark, as you need your 3 phantasms to hit that.
Mesmer has a fantastic and frequent burst with the right build; it’s great with trash mobs. It’s even better with Chrono and access to Wells. For openworld trash, it’s not about the highest DPS, it’s about stacking damage effects. Granted, I wouldn’t recommend Mesmer/Chrono as an optimal OW roaming class for other deficiencies but I think that’s another discussion.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
I love the discussions about DPS where no one brings data. Nothing like having a discussion about a quantitative aspect of the game … qualitatively.
Can anyone tell us where Mesmer ranks currently, using meta build (or whatever you want to call it) for DPS in a team-instance content, like raids or dungeons?
BTW, the OP didn’t even specify what kind of PVE content he’s talking about so there’s that as well. I know all the pro people are going to simply assume he’s talking raids but the simple nature of his post gives me the suspicion he’s not.
I believe I’ve seen Pyro and a couple of others do number crunches off hybrid mesmer.
And the max damage was 17k DPS, if I remember correctly.
Trying to find the threads, haven’t found them yet.The flaw here, is if he isn’t talking about raids, mesmer is horrible at trash mobs.
You won’t get anywhere near the 17k DPS mark, as you need your 3 phantasms to hit that.Mesmer has a fantastic and frequent burst with the right build; it’s great with trash mobs. It’s even better with Chrono and access to Wells. For openworld trash, it’s not about the highest DPS, it’s about stacking damage effects. Granted, I wouldn’t recommend Mesmer/Chrono as an optimal OW roaming class for other deficiencies but I think that’s another discussion.
I hate to be that guy.
But no one cares about the open world.
You could literally run all signet warrior with S/S M/S and still be okay in the open world.
The problem comes in when you want to do high level fractals and raids.
Or, frankly, any fractal really.
Also, “fantastic and frequent burst”. Like, who cares about burst damage?
Even if we’re talking about burst damage, nothing comes anywhere close to gunflame warrior.
“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
I love the discussions about DPS where no one brings data. Nothing like having a discussion about a quantitative aspect of the game … qualitatively.
Can anyone tell us where Mesmer ranks currently, using meta build (or whatever you want to call it) for DPS in a team-instance content, like raids or dungeons?
BTW, the OP didn’t even specify what kind of PVE content he’s talking about so there’s that as well. I know all the pro people are going to simply assume he’s talking raids but the simple nature of his post gives me the suspicion he’s not.
I believe I’ve seen Pyro and a couple of others do number crunches off hybrid mesmer.
And the max damage was 17k DPS, if I remember correctly.
Trying to find the threads, haven’t found them yet.The flaw here, is if he isn’t talking about raids, mesmer is horrible at trash mobs.
You won’t get anywhere near the 17k DPS mark, as you need your 3 phantasms to hit that.Mesmer has a fantastic and frequent burst with the right build; it’s great with trash mobs. It’s even better with Chrono and access to Wells. For openworld trash, it’s not about the highest DPS, it’s about stacking damage effects. Granted, I wouldn’t recommend Mesmer/Chrono as an optimal OW roaming class for other deficiencies but I think that’s another discussion.
Unfortunately, you’re just wrong. The “burst” mesmer can do is blown away by the amount of cleave damage an ele does while autoattacking. The most you could ever possibly do with a shatter burst would be ~15k in total. An ele will do this in about 2 seconds of autoattacking.
I love the discussions about DPS where no one brings data. Nothing like having a discussion about a quantitative aspect of the game … qualitatively.
Can anyone tell us where Mesmer ranks currently, using meta build (or whatever you want to call it) for DPS in a team-instance content, like raids or dungeons?
BTW, the OP didn’t even specify what kind of PVE content he’s talking about so there’s that as well. I know all the pro people are going to simply assume he’s talking raids but the simple nature of his post gives me the suspicion he’s not.
I believe I’ve seen Pyro and a couple of others do number crunches off hybrid mesmer.
And the max damage was 17k DPS, if I remember correctly.
Trying to find the threads, haven’t found them yet.The flaw here, is if he isn’t talking about raids, mesmer is horrible at trash mobs.
You won’t get anywhere near the 17k DPS mark, as you need your 3 phantasms to hit that.Mesmer has a fantastic and frequent burst with the right build; it’s great with trash mobs. It’s even better with Chrono and access to Wells. For openworld trash, it’s not about the highest DPS, it’s about stacking damage effects. Granted, I wouldn’t recommend Mesmer/Chrono as an optimal OW roaming class for other deficiencies but I think that’s another discussion.
Unfortunately, you’re just wrong. The “burst” mesmer can do is blown away by the amount of cleave damage an ele does while autoattacking. The most you could ever possibly do with a shatter burst would be ~15k in total. An ele will do this in about 2 seconds of autoattacking.
As an ele main this is pretty true, I created a Mesmer as my first ever class in GW2 but realised very early how bad it was compared to others. I then levelled up and mained ele and even though I really really want to play Mesmer I can’t find a single reason to play it other than be a buff bot via wells. I don’t like that play style, do not want to get a 4th set of armour and it’s debatable whether it is worth it now as some top DPS classes get barely any benefit from alacrity.
I wish ANet would stop messing around with this esports rubbish, take a month off from whatever the hell they are doing and devote everything to fixing/redesigning long standing mechanics and weapons that don’t work, examples:
Mesmer phantasms and sustained damage.
Ele scepter and how condition builds don’t really work properly because of attunements.
Thief being as one dimensional as this line – and many weapon combos being questionable.
Stealth camping being so rediculous in WvW.
Warrior seeming to lack any real focus except might stacker in PvE.
I love the discussions about DPS where no one brings data. Nothing like having a discussion about a quantitative aspect of the game … qualitatively.
Can anyone tell us where Mesmer ranks currently, using meta build (or whatever you want to call it) for DPS in a team-instance content, like raids or dungeons?
BTW, the OP didn’t even specify what kind of PVE content he’s talking about so there’s that as well. I know all the pro people are going to simply assume he’s talking raids but the simple nature of his post gives me the suspicion he’s not.
I believe I’ve seen Pyro and a couple of others do number crunches off hybrid mesmer.
And the max damage was 17k DPS, if I remember correctly.
Trying to find the threads, haven’t found them yet.The flaw here, is if he isn’t talking about raids, mesmer is horrible at trash mobs.
You won’t get anywhere near the 17k DPS mark, as you need your 3 phantasms to hit that.Mesmer has a fantastic and frequent burst with the right build; it’s great with trash mobs. It’s even better with Chrono and access to Wells. For openworld trash, it’s not about the highest DPS, it’s about stacking damage effects. Granted, I wouldn’t recommend Mesmer/Chrono as an optimal OW roaming class for other deficiencies but I think that’s another discussion.
Unfortunately, you’re just wrong. The “burst” mesmer can do is blown away by the amount of cleave damage an ele does while autoattacking. The most you could ever possibly do with a shatter burst would be ~15k in total. An ele will do this in about 2 seconds of autoattacking.
What does ele have to do with this? I’m not ‘wrong’ because I didn’t even talk about ele’s … This isn’t a peeing contest to see who kills what faster, it’s simply showing Mesmer has an element of what is necessary to be optimal for OW content.
The fact remains that the burst I can get on Mesmer is sufficient to kill any trash mob in OW very quickly and can be accessed frequently enough to be use whenever a trash mob is encountered; the recipe for trashkilling OW goodness.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
In the gated new maps and events my feeling is a lack in general. In pre – HoT maps I’m agree.
I love the discussions about DPS where no one brings data. Nothing like having a discussion about a quantitative aspect of the game … qualitatively.
Can anyone tell us where Mesmer ranks currently, using meta build (or whatever you want to call it) for DPS in a team-instance content, like raids or dungeons?
BTW, the OP didn’t even specify what kind of PVE content he’s talking about so there’s that as well. I know all the pro people are going to simply assume he’s talking raids but the simple nature of his post gives me the suspicion he’s not.
I believe I’ve seen Pyro and a couple of others do number crunches off hybrid mesmer.
And the max damage was 17k DPS, if I remember correctly.
Trying to find the threads, haven’t found them yet.The flaw here, is if he isn’t talking about raids, mesmer is horrible at trash mobs.
You won’t get anywhere near the 17k DPS mark, as you need your 3 phantasms to hit that.Mesmer has a fantastic and frequent burst with the right build; it’s great with trash mobs. It’s even better with Chrono and access to Wells. For openworld trash, it’s not about the highest DPS, it’s about stacking damage effects. Granted, I wouldn’t recommend Mesmer/Chrono as an optimal OW roaming class for other deficiencies but I think that’s another discussion.
I hate to be that guy.
But no one cares about the open world.You could literally run all signet warrior with S/S M/S and still be okay in the open world.
The problem comes in when you want to do high level fractals and raids.
Or, frankly, any fractal really.Also, “fantastic and frequent burst”. Like, who cares about burst damage?
Even if we’re talking about burst damage, nothing comes anywhere close to gunflame warrior.
These are my favourite responses. Who cares about openworld? I guess the answer would be: the people that want to optimize their play in it. Just because you haven’t taken a considered thought about how to optimize your time there doesn’t mean that there aren’t others who haven’t.
You are right; OW is easy but that doesn’t mean you can’t optimize to play in that area.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
I love the discussions about DPS where no one brings data. Nothing like having a discussion about a quantitative aspect of the game … qualitatively.
Can anyone tell us where Mesmer ranks currently, using meta build (or whatever you want to call it) for DPS in a team-instance content, like raids or dungeons?
BTW, the OP didn’t even specify what kind of PVE content he’s talking about so there’s that as well. I know all the pro people are going to simply assume he’s talking raids but the simple nature of his post gives me the suspicion he’s not.
I believe I’ve seen Pyro and a couple of others do number crunches off hybrid mesmer.
And the max damage was 17k DPS, if I remember correctly.
Trying to find the threads, haven’t found them yet.The flaw here, is if he isn’t talking about raids, mesmer is horrible at trash mobs.
You won’t get anywhere near the 17k DPS mark, as you need your 3 phantasms to hit that.Mesmer has a fantastic and frequent burst with the right build; it’s great with trash mobs. It’s even better with Chrono and access to Wells. For openworld trash, it’s not about the highest DPS, it’s about stacking damage effects. Granted, I wouldn’t recommend Mesmer/Chrono as an optimal OW roaming class for other deficiencies but I think that’s another discussion.
Unfortunately, you’re just wrong. The “burst” mesmer can do is blown away by the amount of cleave damage an ele does while autoattacking. The most you could ever possibly do with a shatter burst would be ~15k in total. An ele will do this in about 2 seconds of autoattacking.
What does ele have to do with this? I’m not ‘wrong’ because I didn’t even talk about ele’s … This isn’t a peeing contest to see who kills what faster, it’s simply showing Mesmer has an element of what is necessary to be optimal for OW content.
The fact remains that the burst I can get on Mesmer is sufficient to kill any trash mob in OW very quickly and can be accessed frequently enough to be use whenever a trash mob is encountered; the recipe for trashkilling OW goodness.
Ah, my apologies. I didn’t realize you were talking about a game mode that you could do while naked and mostly afk. If you’re talking about trash open world mobs you can instakill, you’re probably not even referring to HoT content.
Are you seriously trying to make the argument that mesmer damage is fine because you can kill all the random trash that doesn’t matter? That’s just absurd.
On top of that, mesmer is still awful at killing open world trash. We have awful access to strong aoe. Literally every single other class in the game is FAR better than we are at open world killing.
Are you seriously trying to make the argument that mesmer damage is fine because you can kill all the random trash that doesn’t matter? That’s just absurd.
No, I’m not … I never made a statement like that so … think whatever you want to be argumentative I guess.
On top of that, mesmer is still awful at killing open world trash. We have awful access to strong aoe. Literally every single other class in the game is FAR better than we are at open world killing.
AOE is not necessary to kill openworld trash. Most trash you encounter is single mobs. Even if you do events, you tend to have some kind of AoE to tag lots of things. Come to think of it though .. the build I use is loaded with AOE tools and bounces to deal with multi mob encounters. /shrug
I suggest that if you HAVEN’T thought about how you would optimize all class for OW content, you don’t argue with someone that has.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Ah ha ha ha.
Open world, lol that is the absolute silliest thing to balance around or even think about. I have a friend who has done 100% HoT and core mapping, all of personal, LS2 and HoT story on a naked ranger and he died twice.
TWICE!
Best part, both were due to updraft so not working at the final fight in HoT story. You don’t need to optimise for open world to be effective and even then if you optimise for it you will find Mesmer is dead last especially in a power shatter build.
But that isn’t what this thread is about. Read the title, it’s about DPS and in terms of DPS Mesmer is dead last.
I love the discussions about DPS where no one brings data. Nothing like having a discussion about a quantitative aspect of the game … qualitatively.
Can anyone tell us where Mesmer ranks currently, using meta build (or whatever you want to call it) for DPS in a team-instance content, like raids or dungeons?
BTW, the OP didn’t even specify what kind of PVE content he’s talking about so there’s that as well. I know all the pro people are going to simply assume he’s talking raids but the simple nature of his post gives me the suspicion he’s not.
I believe I’ve seen Pyro and a couple of others do number crunches off hybrid mesmer.
And the max damage was 17k DPS, if I remember correctly.
Trying to find the threads, haven’t found them yet.The flaw here, is if he isn’t talking about raids, mesmer is horrible at trash mobs.
You won’t get anywhere near the 17k DPS mark, as you need your 3 phantasms to hit that.Mesmer has a fantastic and frequent burst with the right build; it’s great with trash mobs. It’s even better with Chrono and access to Wells. For openworld trash, it’s not about the highest DPS, it’s about stacking damage effects. Granted, I wouldn’t recommend Mesmer/Chrono as an optimal OW roaming class for other deficiencies but I think that’s another discussion.
I hate to be that guy.
But no one cares about the open world.You could literally run all signet warrior with S/S M/S and still be okay in the open world.
The problem comes in when you want to do high level fractals and raids.
Or, frankly, any fractal really.Also, “fantastic and frequent burst”. Like, who cares about burst damage?
Even if we’re talking about burst damage, nothing comes anywhere close to gunflame warrior.These are my favourite responses. Who cares about openworld? I guess the answer would be: the people that want to optimize their play in it. Just because you haven’t taken a considered thought about how to optimize your time there doesn’t mean that there aren’t others who haven’t.
You are right; OW is easy but that doesn’t mean you can’t optimize to play in that area.
Dude, I literally run staff/gs in open world.
Staff to get around faster, GS to kill tougher mobs safely.
It seriously doesn’t matter.
I’m not going to be running S/Sh, X/S in open world anytime soon. And that would be about as “optimized” as you could get.
“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
Out of curiosity what would prob be key areas and ways to implement damage like buffs to mesmer dps without going overboard? like how exactly would this class be buffed dps wise just raw % increases on skills or something more drastic like remaking how phants work and the contribution from them towards personal damage.
Out of curiosity what would prob be key areas and ways to implement damage like buffs to mesmer dps without going overboard? like how exactly would this class be buffed dps wise just raw % increases on skills or something more drastic like remaking how phants work and the contribution from them towards personal damage.
1. Increase AA damage across all weapons.
2. Allow phantasms to benefit from personal damage boosts.
3. Allow phantasms to survive the death of their target (#1 problem with the phantasm concept in pve, imo).
4. Give illusions in pvp the same hp as illusions in pve.
5. Decrease well and shield cooldowns to compensate for the nerf to alacrity. These skills (and no others) were balanced around the expectations of original alacrity. They just need a shave (4s off shield skills, 10% off wells).
6. Allow mesmer interrupt traits to proc on breakbar mobs even when they are not actually interrupted. But, only allow this to occur once per “interrupted” skill to prevent overuse (as opposed to implementing .5s ICDs for every interrupt trait).
7. Fix various weapon abilities that are stupidly bad. E.g. GS AA is weak as kitten; Scepter AA doesn’t attack til projectile hits; torch cooldowns are dumb and torch phantasm is dumb; Staff AA didn’t get updated when other condition weapons got updated; etc.
None of the above would increase mesmer burst much, which is surely what Anet is most leery of. It would also not totally fix mesmer, but it would help a lot with consistency, potential and usability.
Also, “fantastic and frequent burst”. Like, who cares about burst damage?
Even if we’re talking about burst damage, nothing comes anywhere close to gunflame warrior.
The entirety of the PvP and WvW communities do. Sustained DPS means absolutely nothing in these formats. Either you facetank and attrition or you hit like a truck in kill-or-be-killed. The celestual amulet was only good on (some) classes in sPvP because it had almost 40% more stats on it than it should have, and boon spamming and defensive traits accounted for the losses on a few builds, keeping up durability to bunker-build levels and enough damage to beat out heals and evades which normal bunkers couldn’t do.
Mesmers have the best burst per time in the game of all classes off an MR combo. Period. Gunflame does around 2/3 of the damage of a proper MR alone. A whole GS/blink combo does around double the damage. It’s funny, because stage 3 Killshot does more damage than GF. GF is just more accessible so it seems more OP than other skills. Claiming GF burst is the best in the game is both ignorant and wrong.
The only class with comparable burst damage capability in such a period of time is the thief, but to do so you need to run D/D signet backstab, which is widely considered as the worst and least-viable synergy-built build in the entire game.
Yea, in PvE burst doesn’t mean much, but maybe, just maybe, it isn’t the mesmer’s goal to be killing hordes of trash mobs in PvE. The entire class is built around confounding enemies and annihilating an individual target, unless you’d like to declare shatters aren’t meant to burst a single target nor provide defensive bonuses.
And so, the mesmer got alacrity, instead, to justify use in PvE, because the party-wide DPS it gives makes any argument about personal DPS insubstantial. The entire speed-clear (which is what the arbitrary berserker meta came from) scene was about group-damage augmentation. Rangers were taken in these groups despite previously offering the worst personal DPS in the game (yup, lower than mesmer) due to Frost Spirit and Spotter providing substantial party-wide gains which overshadowed their poor personal DPS.
The only fair way to bolster the mesmer’s personal DPS potential would be an elite spec that just straight-up removes shatters. But frankly, this will/should never be used and design-wise is a horrible idea, because unless selfish classes like the thief would gain massive group support roles, and the mesmer’s personal DPS would top the charts, the combination would best be served for thief as DPS and mesmer as alacrity, otherwise one class under-performs at its own roles, and either one is nerfed into not being an optimal composition, or one is buffed into being superior at one of those roles, just changing the scene and not improving the gameplay. Simply, the dynamic doesn’t actually allow for diversity, but rather shoves the same problems to other classes.
To create an optimal PvE composition and subsequently make content around these types of compositions, there requires more and more power creep. This drives a lot of players away as we’ve seen with HoT and is one of the biggest if not the biggest complaint about the expansion.
Formal Thief Elite Spec proposal:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
(edited by DeceiverX.8361)
-snip massive irrelevant post-
This entire thread is about PvE. The comment you quoted was responding to a comment advocating mesmer burst in PvE. Literally nothing in your post is even remotely relevant or useful.
Also, “fantastic and frequent burst”. Like, who cares about burst damage?
Even if we’re talking about burst damage, nothing comes anywhere close to gunflame warrior.The entirety of the PvP and WvW communities do. Sustained DPS means absolutely nothing in these formats. Either you facetank and attrition or you hit like a truck in kill-or-be-killed. The celestual amulet was only good on (some) classes in sPvP because it had almost 40% more stats on it than it should have, and boon spamming and defensive traits accounted for the losses on a few builds, keeping up durability to bunker-build levels and enough damage to beat out heals and evades which normal bunkers couldn’t do.
Mesmers have the best burst per time in the game of all classes off an MR combo. Period. Gunflame does around 2/3 of the damage of a proper MR alone. A whole GS/blink combo does around double the damage. It’s funny, because stage 3 Killshot does more damage than GF. GF is just more accessible so it seems more OP than other skills. Claiming GF burst is the best in the game is both ignorant and wrong.
The only class with comparable burst damage capability in such a period of time is the thief, but to do so you need to run D/D signet backstab, which is widely considered as the worst and least-viable synergy-built build in the entire game.
Yea, in PvE burst doesn’t mean much, but maybe, just maybe, it isn’t the mesmer’s goal to be killing hordes of trash mobs in PvE. The entire class is built around confounding enemies and annihilating an individual target, unless you’d like to declare shatters aren’t meant to burst a single target nor provide defensive bonuses.
And so, the mesmer got alacrity, instead, to justify use in PvE, because the party-wide DPS it gives makes any argument about personal DPS insubstantial. The entire speed-clear (which is what the arbitrary berserker meta came from) scene was about group-damage augmentation. Rangers were taken in these groups despite previously offering the worst personal DPS in the game (yup, lower than mesmer) due to Frost Spirit and Spotter providing substantial party-wide gains which overshadowed their poor personal DPS.
The only fair way to bolster the mesmer’s personal DPS potential would be an elite spec that just straight-up removes shatters. But frankly, this will/should never be used and design-wise is a horrible idea, because unless selfish classes like the thief would gain massive group support roles, and the mesmer’s personal DPS would top the charts, the combination would best be served for thief as DPS and mesmer as alacrity, otherwise one class under-performs at its own roles, and either one is nerfed into not being an optimal composition, or one is buffed into being superior at one of those roles, just changing the scene and not improving the gameplay. Simply, the dynamic doesn’t actually allow for diversity, but rather shoves the same problems to other classes.
To create an optimal PvE composition and subsequently make content around these types of compositions, there requires more and more power creep. This drives a lot of players away as we’ve seen with HoT and is one of the biggest if not the biggest complaint about the expansion.
with so called best burst damage , mes still cant kill equal skill tempest , repear scrapper , thief /DD , rev and druid due to lacking of sustain damage while other does less burst (actually some does same in reality since mes combo in high end pvp is far harder to pull off almost impossible without stealth,but whatever i will give this best burst ),but far better sustain .ITs not hard to check , log on a rev or thief or ele or necro or anything else , swing your melee weapon on golem, and log on mes , swing your melee weapon also summon izerker , and see how pathetic the mes sustain damage is even with one izerker alive (lets ignore the surviblity problem of illusion also ignore the longer set up time .)
btw im pretty sure op was asking about pve content , can you have some common sense before you say mes damage is fine .
idk why ppl could lie like this i meant seriously , mes is hardest class for lvling and doing worst dps u can not really argue with this .it is not us asking for a power creep level damage buff plz , its us as the lowest dps class asking a reasonable buff on sustain damage .
“Yea, in PvE burst doesn’t mean much, but maybe, just maybe, it isn’t the mesmer’s goal to be killing hordes of trash mobs in PvE. The entire class is built around confounding enemies and annihilating an individual target, unless you’d like to declare shatters aren’t meant to burst a single target nor provide defensive bonuses.”
“The entire class is built around confounding enemies and annihilating an individual target—— so as this nonsense talk goes , thief should do poor damage since they should go stealth ! when we are talking about the game balance and actual game play , u suddenly dropped the class concept ?whats your logic ?
”But frankly, this will/should never be used and design-wise is a horrible idea, because unless selfish classes like the thief would gain massive group support roles, and the mesmer’s personal DPS would top the chart“
before HOT thief did have group support ,plz group wise stealth and aoe blind , also cc on demand . you know before hot thief was in most pve dungeon and fractal speed run right ?
and again there is difference between asking for a reasonable sustain damage and asking for buff in order to be dps king . can you read , or you dont understand how worse it is for a mes ?
“the mesmer’s personal DPS would top the chart“ math doesnt agree with you .
Also, “fantastic and frequent burst”. Like, who cares about burst damage?
Even if we’re talking about burst damage, nothing comes anywhere close to gunflame warrior.The entirety of the PvP and WvW communities do. Sustained DPS means absolutely nothing in these formats. Either you facetank and attrition or you hit like a truck in kill-or-be-killed. The celestual amulet was only good on (some) classes in sPvP because it had almost 40% more stats on it than it should have, and boon spamming and defensive traits accounted for the losses on a few builds, keeping up durability to bunker-build levels and enough damage to beat out heals and evades which normal bunkers couldn’t do.
Mesmers have the best burst per time in the game of all classes off an MR combo. Period. Gunflame does around 2/3 of the damage of a proper MR alone. A whole GS/blink combo does around double the damage. It’s funny, because stage 3 Killshot does more damage than GF. GF is just more accessible so it seems more OP than other skills. Claiming GF burst is the best in the game is both ignorant and wrong.
The only class with comparable burst damage capability in such a period of time is the thief, but to do so you need to run D/D signet backstab, which is widely considered as the worst and least-viable synergy-built build in the entire game.
Yea, in PvE burst doesn’t mean much, but maybe, just maybe, it isn’t the mesmer’s goal to be killing hordes of trash mobs in PvE. The entire class is built around confounding enemies and annihilating an individual target, unless you’d like to declare shatters aren’t meant to burst a single target nor provide defensive bonuses.
And so, the mesmer got alacrity, instead, to justify use in PvE, because the party-wide DPS it gives makes any argument about personal DPS insubstantial. The entire speed-clear (which is what the arbitrary berserker meta came from) scene was about group-damage augmentation. Rangers were taken in these groups despite previously offering the worst personal DPS in the game (yup, lower than mesmer) due to Frost Spirit and Spotter providing substantial party-wide gains which overshadowed their poor personal DPS.
The only fair way to bolster the mesmer’s personal DPS potential would be an elite spec that just straight-up removes shatters. But frankly, this will/should never be used and design-wise is a horrible idea, because unless selfish classes like the thief would gain massive group support roles, and the mesmer’s personal DPS would top the charts, the combination would best be served for thief as DPS and mesmer as alacrity, otherwise one class under-performs at its own roles, and either one is nerfed into not being an optimal composition, or one is buffed into being superior at one of those roles, just changing the scene and not improving the gameplay. Simply, the dynamic doesn’t actually allow for diversity, but rather shoves the same problems to other classes.
To create an optimal PvE composition and subsequently make content around these types of compositions, there requires more and more power creep. This drives a lot of players away as we’ve seen with HoT and is one of the biggest if not the biggest complaint about the expansion.
btw mes burst build is not pve dps build , simple concept so no buffing burst king -mes sustain damage wont result the dps king in any way . but you failed to understand it . you are just arguing for sake of arguing .
-snip massive irrelevant post-
This entire thread is about PvE. The comment you quoted was responding to a comment advocating mesmer burst in PvE. Literally nothing in your post is even remotely relevant or useful.
Seeing as game balance and class design is based on multiple game modes, multiple game modes are necessary to be considered for PvE balancing as well. I also refuted the claim made about about GF war offering superior burst damage to the mesmer, which is completely untrue. All game modes are linked one way or another. Neglecting to consider other game modes and other classes and the design principles of the game will accomplish nothing for the class or the greater good of the game across all formats. It’s why you see uninformed posts about Backstab needing substantial damage bonuses, warriors needing more defense, rangers not having enough burst, etc., because right now, each class has vastly different levels of power in different formats. Basing balancing changes by examining one format and only one format brings even more disparity to the classes and defines an even stricter meta across multiple game modes.
Frankly, the condemnation of my post and not examining the reasoning in the later half of it when I address PvE brings nothing useful to the discussion. If you wish to proclaim any dispute over balance is “not useful” if it argues against the principle of mesmer DPS being top-tier, then just let me know and I’ll simply stop bothering trying to advocate for this class to be designed in the proper direction as a whole to contribute more towards a healthy game environment, because then this thread is just a cry-fest ignoring other aspects of the game and the potential damage or other PvE design decisions which need to be accounted for.
So far, I’ve seen very little discussion as to how the class could be improved, or why, but rather “x class is better than us for the personal DPS role and we suck based solely on this designation, more damage plz.” That’s not how the game should be balanced. Even the thief community didn’t want AA damage increased to get them a spot in raids; there are fundamental mechanical issues which inhibit the class from growing. The damage bonus was a band-aid to a gunshot wound. More personal DPS on the mesmer to boost it to levels people actually care about (I.E. optimality) would make the class OP in PvE and PvP. And most level-headed people agree being OP is boring/stupid.
Also, “fantastic and frequent burst”. Like, who cares about burst damage?
Even if we’re talking about burst damage, nothing comes anywhere close to gunflame warrior.The entirety of the PvP and WvW communities do. Sustained DPS means absolutely nothing in these formats. Either you facetank and attrition or you hit like a truck in kill-or-be-killed. The celestual amulet was only good on (some) classes in sPvP because it had almost 40% more stats on it than it should have, and boon spamming and defensive traits accounted for the losses on a few builds, keeping up durability to bunker-build levels and enough damage to beat out heals and evades which normal bunkers couldn’t do.
Mesmers have the best burst per time in the game of all classes off an MR combo. Period. Gunflame does around 2/3 of the damage of a proper MR alone. A whole GS/blink combo does around double the damage. It’s funny, because stage 3 Killshot does more damage than GF. GF is just more accessible so it seems more OP than other skills. Claiming GF burst is the best in the game is both ignorant and wrong.
The only class with comparable burst damage capability in such a period of time is the thief, but to do so you need to run D/D signet backstab, which is widely considered as the worst and least-viable synergy-built build in the entire game.
Yea, in PvE burst doesn’t mean much, but maybe, just maybe, it isn’t the mesmer’s goal to be killing hordes of trash mobs in PvE. The entire class is built around confounding enemies and annihilating an individual target, unless you’d like to declare shatters aren’t meant to burst a single target nor provide defensive bonuses.
And so, the mesmer got alacrity, instead, to justify use in PvE, because the party-wide DPS it gives makes any argument about personal DPS insubstantial. The entire speed-clear (which is what the arbitrary berserker meta came from) scene was about group-damage augmentation. Rangers were taken in these groups despite previously offering the worst personal DPS in the game (yup, lower than mesmer) due to Frost Spirit and Spotter providing substantial party-wide gains which overshadowed their poor personal DPS.
The only fair way to bolster the mesmer’s personal DPS potential would be an elite spec that just straight-up removes shatters. But frankly, this will/should never be used and design-wise is a horrible idea, because unless selfish classes like the thief would gain massive group support roles, and the mesmer’s personal DPS would top the charts, the combination would best be served for thief as DPS and mesmer as alacrity, otherwise one class under-performs at its own roles, and either one is nerfed into not being an optimal composition, or one is buffed into being superior at one of those roles, just changing the scene and not improving the gameplay. Simply, the dynamic doesn’t actually allow for diversity, but rather shoves the same problems to other classes.
To create an optimal PvE composition and subsequently make content around these types of compositions, there requires more and more power creep. This drives a lot of players away as we’ve seen with HoT and is one of the biggest if not the biggest complaint about the expansion.
with so called best burst damage , mes still cant kill equal skill tempest , repear scrapper , thief /DD , rev and druid due to lacking of sustain damage while other does less burst (actually some does same in reality since mes combo in high end pvp is far harder to pull off almost impossible without stealth,but whatever i will give this best burst ),but far better sustain .ITs not hard to check , log on a rev or thief or ele or necro or anything else , swing your melee weapon on golem, and log on mes , swing your melee weapon also summon izerker , and see how pathetic the mes sustain damage is even with one izerker alive (lets ignore the surviblity problem of illusion also ignore the longer set up time .)
btw im pretty sure op was asking about pve content , can you have some common sense before you say mes damage is fine .
idk why ppl could lie like this i meant seriously , mes is hardest class for lvling and doing worst dps u can not really argue with this .it is not us asking for a power creep level damage buff plz , its us as the lowest dps class asking a reasonable buff on sustain damage .“Yea, in PvE burst doesn’t mean much, but maybe, just maybe, it isn’t the mesmer’s goal to be killing hordes of trash mobs in PvE. The entire class is built around confounding enemies and annihilating an individual target, unless you’d like to declare shatters aren’t meant to burst a single target nor provide defensive bonuses.”
“The entire class is built around confounding enemies and annihilating an individual target—— so as this nonsense talk goes , thief should do poor damage since they should go stealth ! when we are talking about the game balance and actual game play , u suddenly dropped the class concept ?whats your logic ?
”But frankly, this will/should never be used and design-wise is a horrible idea, because unless selfish classes like the thief would gain massive group support roles, and the mesmer’s personal DPS would top the chart“
before HOT thief did have group support ,plz group wise stealth and aoe blind , also cc on demand . you know before hot thief was in most pve dungeon and fractal speed run right ?
and again there is difference between asking for a reasonable sustain damage and asking for buff in order to be dps king . can you read , or you dont understand how worse it is for a mes ?
“the mesmer’s personal DPS would top the chart“ math doesnt agree with you .
And the thief frankly doesn’t do very good damage. It was ranked sixth below the AA damage increases and rev’s nerfs. It’s now sitting at second place for sustained DPS for PvE and in the middle/low tiers in PvP and resides currently in middle-high for burst damage only when playing against glass targets with no boons and running a fully-aggressive build that uses zero utilities and has no condition cleansing. They in fact do heavily utilize stealth as a compromise for their defenses. They lose damage when using stealth. Again, the reason why the thief does so much damage isn’t good design. It’s a band-aid fix to a gunshot wound.
Thief’s “utility” was SR to skip trash mobs. AoE blind was negligible, and was not used. Competitive DPS was D/D, which has no access to blind, and assuming SA is foolish because CiS resulted in DPS losses due to needing to use stealth. MI and portal can handle this niche as well. Further, group support in speed clears meant damage. Again, this is why the ranger was used in top-tier groups and kicked on sight in pug groups.
A slight DPS boost will do literally nothing for the mesmer, though. That’s what I was saying to begin with, and seemingly went over everyone’s head. Raid groups and high-tier PvE groups play for optimal compositions. I play a mesmer. I even said that the mesmer’s personal damage is bad. A small boost won’t help the mesmer be more useful in meta-setting/abiding PvE because nobody will care about its damage unless the damage is optimal or near-optimal. The thief still did tons of damage before the AA chain increase. Yet the class was kicked-on-sight by an overwhelming majority of groups on the basis that it didn’t do the damage a Rev or Ele did. If the mesmer didn’t have chrono/alacrity, sure I’d advocate for a reason to get mesmer’s damage contribution group-wide to increase in some way. Fact is that it has these mechanics, and to balance its massive burst potential and keep its DPS in check, sacrifices have to be made from a numbers perspective. Subjectivity here is null and is what caused the celestial-stat meta in PvP. These kinds of balance ideologies fail on principle and the results have already been shown to have failed when put in practice.
I play and have fully-geared every class in the game except engineer, swapping frequently depending on the role I need to fulfill. Again, you’re taking my post out of context acting like I don’t understand that mesmer DPS is poor. Problem is to balance its burst and DPS. This is something that needs to happen because ANet needs to balance for multiple formats. As soon as the DPS becomes competitive enough to justify a DPS mesmer in PvE (which as I mentioned will not be justified unless it tops the charts due to raid/fractal composition ideology/meta adaption), if nothing is sacrificed, the build hits overpowered status in sPvP, and it will get nerfed, or as a consequence, something else will get buffed to be stronger than the mesmer, and we’ve just shifted roles or are back to square one except then the game is power-creeped and more people leave.
Formal Thief Elite Spec proposal:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/ES-Suggestion-The-Deadeye-FORMAL/
Dude, I literally run staff/gs in open world.
Staff to get around faster, GS to kill tougher mobs safely.It seriously doesn’t matter.
I’m not going to be running S/Sh, X/S in open world anytime soon. And that would be about as “optimized” as you could get.
It doesn’t matter to you. It does to me and others. Frankly, if you don’t think optimization matters in OW PVE, then why are you even responding or discussing the topic with me? It’s ironic that optimized play in Dungeons to shave a minute or two from a run … no question … but the second someone suggests you can do the same in OW PVE to save time there as well …. who cares. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.
I would love to hear why you think S/Sh is as optimal as you can get for OW PVE though. Might shed some light on what you consider as optimal. In fact, if you post a build, I would love to try it out to see how it compares to what I run and let you know how it works out.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Dude, I literally run staff/gs in open world.
Staff to get around faster, GS to kill tougher mobs safely.It seriously doesn’t matter.
I’m not going to be running S/Sh, X/S in open world anytime soon. And that would be about as “optimized” as you could get.It doesn’t matter to you. It does to me and others. Frankly, if you don’t think optimization matters in OW PVE, then why are you even responding or discussing the topic with me?
I would love to hear why you think S/Sh is as optimal as you can get for OW PVE though. Might shed some light on what you consider as optimal.
1. Because optimization matters in Fractals, Dungeons, Events (Well, only the actually tough ones), and raids.
OW PvE is none of these things, and no one is really looking to “speed run” OW PvE. Nor is OW PvE tough enough to require optimization for damage, but rather for travel time.
Thus the staff that I bring. Since staff is superior mobility. And since in the OW I’m looking to tap as many events as possible, I need mobility.
2. iAvengers provide alacrity, no? If we’re looking to be optimized, then the same build we use in Fractals, Dungeons, etc etc etc. Should suffice. Group support over our own damage.
" In fact, if you post a build, I would love to try it out to see how it compares to what I run and let you know how it works out."
Oh yay, I call it competitive event tapping!
GS/Staff.
Stats don’t matter, just wear zerk or assassin, who cares.
Dom, Insp, Chrono.
Everything else should be fairly obvious.
Feel free to swap Insp for whatever else you want, it actually doesn’t matter at all.
“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
(edited by TheOneWhoSighs.7513)
OW PVE is alot of elements that require optimization, DPS and travel time being two of them. Like I said, post a build, I will let you know how it fairs compared to what I run. I’m always looking to ‘speed run’ OW because I benefit from doing it as fast as I can, just like people doing dungeons, fractals and raids benefit from doing those PVE things as fast as they can too.
I can already tell you a few things that aren’t good with your ’build:
1. Insp will suck because nothing you get from it helps you in OW. You said it wouldn’t matter, it matters quite a bit. Do you throw away a whole traitline when you make a dungeon build?
2. Staff offers little in OW PVE on trash. Don’t need it for the runspeed with Chrono traited. Not sure if the other skills compliments GS too well either.
3. I guess you decided to not bother to provide hotbar skills or the traits. Not much of a considered build there;; dropped out of the challenge before it even got off the ground.
All in all, I think you have some work to do before I take you seriously about how much it doesn’t matter to think about optimizing OW PVE performance. I already know the “don’t care” build isn’t going to do better than the one I’m using.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
OW PVE is alot of elements that require optimization, DPS and travel time being two of them. Like I said, post a build, I will let you know how it fairs compared to what I run. I’m always looking to ‘speed run’ OW because I benefit from doing it as fast as I can, just like people doing dungeons, fractals and raids benefit from doing those PVE things as fast as they can too.
I can already tell you a few things that aren’t good with your ’build:
1. Insp will suck because nothing you get from it helps you in OW. You said it wouldn’t matter, it matters quite a bit. Do you throw away a whole traitline when you make a dungeon build?
2. Staff offers little in OW PVE on trash. Don’t need it for the runspeed with Chrono traited. Not sure if the other skills compliments GS too well either.
3. I guess you decided to not bother to provide hotbar skills or the traits. Not much of a considered build there;; dropped out of the challenge before it even got off the ground.All in all, I think you have some work to do before I take you seriously about how much it doesn’t matter to think about optimizing OW PVE performance. I already know the “don’t care” build isn’t going to do better than the one I’m using.
Again, literally don’t care.
Do you really need me to tell you signet heal, blink, well of calamity, well of recall, and tw.
Is there anything else even worth putting on those slots in the bar? Other than another well?
The answer is no.
Insp gives some revive speed, heal & condi removal in case I get lazy on dodging, and a pointless GM trait.
Chaos would offer some might, but I honestly don’t care.
Also, phase retreat is amazing for moving across maps and tapping as many events as possible.
Which, perhaps you didn’t hear me properly TAP.
Why the kitten would I care about trash mobs, when I can go around, kill a couple things on an event, and move to the next one. Wracking up more rewards and EXP than the people sitting there actually doing the event.
Thus is why the condi clear is useful.
Condis keep you in combat longer. I want to be out of combat so I can get to the next event faster.
Welcome to the extremely selfish kitteny tactic that the game enables.
“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
(edited by TheOneWhoSighs.7513)
OW PVE is alot of elements that require optimization, DPS and travel time being two of them. Like I said, post a build, I will let you know how it fairs compared to what I run. I’m always looking to ‘speed run’ OW because I benefit from doing it as fast as I can, just like people doing dungeons, fractals and raids benefit from doing those PVE things as fast as they can too.
I can already tell you a few things that aren’t good with your ’build:
1. Insp will suck because nothing you get from it helps you in OW. You said it wouldn’t matter, it matters quite a bit. Do you throw away a whole traitline when you make a dungeon build?
2. Staff offers little in OW PVE on trash. Don’t need it for the runspeed with Chrono traited. Not sure if the other skills compliments GS too well either.
3. I guess you decided to not bother to provide hotbar skills or the traits. Not much of a considered build there;; dropped out of the challenge before it even got off the ground.All in all, I think you have some work to do before I take you seriously about how much it doesn’t matter to think about optimizing OW PVE performance. I already know the “don’t care” build isn’t going to do better than the one I’m using.
Again, literally don’t care.
Do you really need me to tell you signet heal, blink, well of calamity, well of recall, and tw.
Is there anything else even worth putting on those slots in the bar? Other than another well?
For OW PVE, I think there is because I believe I’ve optimized my build for it. If you want to prove me wrong, then you need to give me a build I can test to see if it’s better. Just telling me it doesn’t matter and you don’t care is not an objective test.
OW PVE is alot of elements that require optimization, DPS and travel time being two of them. Like I said, post a build, I will let you know how it fairs compared to what I run. I’m always looking to ‘speed run’ OW because I benefit from doing it as fast as I can, just like people doing dungeons, fractals and raids benefit from doing those PVE things as fast as they can too.
I can already tell you a few things that aren’t good with your ’build:
1. Insp will suck because nothing you get from it helps you in OW. You said it wouldn’t matter, it matters quite a bit. Do you throw away a whole traitline when you make a dungeon build?
2. Staff offers little in OW PVE on trash. Don’t need it for the runspeed with Chrono traited. Not sure if the other skills compliments GS too well either.
3. I guess you decided to not bother to provide hotbar skills or the traits. Not much of a considered build there;; dropped out of the challenge before it even got off the ground.All in all, I think you have some work to do before I take you seriously about how much it doesn’t matter to think about optimizing OW PVE performance. I already know the “don’t care” build isn’t going to do better than the one I’m using.
Again, literally don’t care.
Do you really need me to tell you signet heal, blink, well of calamity, well of recall, and tw.
Is there anything else even worth putting on those slots in the bar? Other than another well?For OW PVE, I think there is because I believe I’ve optimized my build for it. If you want to prove me wrong, then you need to give me a build I can test to see if it’s better. Just telling me it doesn’t matter and you don’t care is not an objective test.
Again, I don’t care.
kitten your build, and kitten OW.
“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
OW PVE is alot of elements that require optimization, DPS and travel time being two of them. Like I said, post a build, I will let you know how it fairs compared to what I run. I’m always looking to ‘speed run’ OW because I benefit from doing it as fast as I can, just like people doing dungeons, fractals and raids benefit from doing those PVE things as fast as they can too.
I can already tell you a few things that aren’t good with your ’build:
1. Insp will suck because nothing you get from it helps you in OW. You said it wouldn’t matter, it matters quite a bit. Do you throw away a whole traitline when you make a dungeon build?
2. Staff offers little in OW PVE on trash. Don’t need it for the runspeed with Chrono traited. Not sure if the other skills compliments GS too well either.
3. I guess you decided to not bother to provide hotbar skills or the traits. Not much of a considered build there;; dropped out of the challenge before it even got off the ground.All in all, I think you have some work to do before I take you seriously about how much it doesn’t matter to think about optimizing OW PVE performance. I already know the “don’t care” build isn’t going to do better than the one I’m using.
Again, literally don’t care.
Do you really need me to tell you signet heal, blink, well of calamity, well of recall, and tw.
Is there anything else even worth putting on those slots in the bar? Other than another well?For OW PVE, I think there is because I believe I’ve optimized my build for it. If you want to prove me wrong, then you need to give me a build I can test to see if it’s better. Just telling me it doesn’t matter and you don’t care is not an objective test.
Nobody wants to argue about your secret sauce Queensdale build, because every build is “good enough” for OW mobs. PvE balance is generally focused on cutting-edge content, because that’s where your class limitations will keep you from getting a spot.
OW PVE is alot of elements that require optimization, DPS and travel time being two of them. Like I said, post a build, I will let you know how it fairs compared to what I run. I’m always looking to ‘speed run’ OW because I benefit from doing it as fast as I can, just like people doing dungeons, fractals and raids benefit from doing those PVE things as fast as they can too.
I can already tell you a few things that aren’t good with your ’build:
1. Insp will suck because nothing you get from it helps you in OW. You said it wouldn’t matter, it matters quite a bit. Do you throw away a whole traitline when you make a dungeon build?
2. Staff offers little in OW PVE on trash. Don’t need it for the runspeed with Chrono traited. Not sure if the other skills compliments GS too well either.
3. I guess you decided to not bother to provide hotbar skills or the traits. Not much of a considered build there;; dropped out of the challenge before it even got off the ground.All in all, I think you have some work to do before I take you seriously about how much it doesn’t matter to think about optimizing OW PVE performance. I already know the “don’t care” build isn’t going to do better than the one I’m using.
Again, literally don’t care.
Do you really need me to tell you signet heal, blink, well of calamity, well of recall, and tw.
Is there anything else even worth putting on those slots in the bar? Other than another well?For OW PVE, I think there is because I believe I’ve optimized my build for it. If you want to prove me wrong, then you need to give me a build I can test to see if it’s better. Just telling me it doesn’t matter and you don’t care is not an objective test.
Nothing beats a thief in XYZ travel time, thief has way higher DPS than a Mesmer, higher stealth uptime at little cost. For “optimised open world” hands down thief is best for it whatever you plan to do.
Therefore your entire posts for the last page are as irrelevant as open world.
Seeing as game balance and class design is based on multiple game modes, multiple game modes are necessary to be considered for PvE balancing as well.
Looking at the last few metas/balance patches Anet doesn’t care about class balance in PvP so I don’t see why we should when talking about PvE.
OW PVE is alot of elements that require optimization, DPS and travel time being two of them. Like I said, post a build, I will let you know how it fairs compared to what I run. I’m always looking to ‘speed run’ OW because I benefit from doing it as fast as I can, just like people doing dungeons, fractals and raids benefit from doing those PVE things as fast as they can too.
I can already tell you a few things that aren’t good with your ’build:
1. Insp will suck because nothing you get from it helps you in OW. You said it wouldn’t matter, it matters quite a bit. Do you throw away a whole traitline when you make a dungeon build?
2. Staff offers little in OW PVE on trash. Don’t need it for the runspeed with Chrono traited. Not sure if the other skills compliments GS too well either.
3. I guess you decided to not bother to provide hotbar skills or the traits. Not much of a considered build there;; dropped out of the challenge before it even got off the ground.All in all, I think you have some work to do before I take you seriously about how much it doesn’t matter to think about optimizing OW PVE performance. I already know the “don’t care” build isn’t going to do better than the one I’m using.
Again, literally don’t care.
Do you really need me to tell you signet heal, blink, well of calamity, well of recall, and tw.
Is there anything else even worth putting on those slots in the bar? Other than another well?For OW PVE, I think there is because I believe I’ve optimized my build for it. If you want to prove me wrong, then you need to give me a build I can test to see if it’s better. Just telling me it doesn’t matter and you don’t care is not an objective test.
Nothing beats a thief in XYZ travel time, thief has way higher DPS than a Mesmer, higher stealth uptime at little cost. For “optimised open world” hands down thief is best for it whatever you plan to do.
Therefore your entire posts for the last page are as irrelevant as open world.
You’re comprehension is lacking … I’m not discussing what profession is better for OW content and neither was anyone else. I’m simply asking for the people arguing with me to provide an optimized mesmer build for OW because they are claiming it doesn’t matter what build you use when in fact, I know it does; anyone that claims otherwise is just being obtuse. I’m genuinely interested in the topic so if they aren’t willing to post a build and simply argue, I can only assume they have nothing to add to my experience.
And for the record, you’re right; thief is one, if not the best, OW profession.
OW PVE is alot of elements that require optimization, DPS and travel time being two of them. Like I said, post a build, I will let you know how it fairs compared to what I run. I’m always looking to ‘speed run’ OW because I benefit from doing it as fast as I can, just like people doing dungeons, fractals and raids benefit from doing those PVE things as fast as they can too.
I can already tell you a few things that aren’t good with your ’build:
1. Insp will suck because nothing you get from it helps you in OW. You said it wouldn’t matter, it matters quite a bit. Do you throw away a whole traitline when you make a dungeon build?
2. Staff offers little in OW PVE on trash. Don’t need it for the runspeed with Chrono traited. Not sure if the other skills compliments GS too well either.
3. I guess you decided to not bother to provide hotbar skills or the traits. Not much of a considered build there;; dropped out of the challenge before it even got off the ground.All in all, I think you have some work to do before I take you seriously about how much it doesn’t matter to think about optimizing OW PVE performance. I already know the “don’t care” build isn’t going to do better than the one I’m using.
Again, literally don’t care.
Do you really need me to tell you signet heal, blink, well of calamity, well of recall, and tw.
Is there anything else even worth putting on those slots in the bar? Other than another well?For OW PVE, I think there is because I believe I’ve optimized my build for it. If you want to prove me wrong, then you need to give me a build I can test to see if it’s better. Just telling me it doesn’t matter and you don’t care is not an objective test.
Nobody wants to argue about your secret sauce Queensdale build, because every build is “good enough” for OW mobs. PvE balance is generally focused on cutting-edge content, because that’s where your class limitations will keep you from getting a spot.
Good, because I’m not asking anyone to argue with me; I’m asking people to post whatever build they think is relevant to what THEY want to argue with me about; optimized OW PVE. Talk is cheap.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
OW PVE is alot of elements that require optimization, DPS and travel time being two of them. Like I said, post a build, I will let you know how it fairs compared to what I run. I’m always looking to ‘speed run’ OW because I benefit from doing it as fast as I can, just like people doing dungeons, fractals and raids benefit from doing those PVE things as fast as they can too.
I can already tell you a few things that aren’t good with your ’build:
1. Insp will suck because nothing you get from it helps you in OW. You said it wouldn’t matter, it matters quite a bit. Do you throw away a whole traitline when you make a dungeon build?
2. Staff offers little in OW PVE on trash. Don’t need it for the runspeed with Chrono traited. Not sure if the other skills compliments GS too well either.
3. I guess you decided to not bother to provide hotbar skills or the traits. Not much of a considered build there;; dropped out of the challenge before it even got off the ground.All in all, I think you have some work to do before I take you seriously about how much it doesn’t matter to think about optimizing OW PVE performance. I already know the “don’t care” build isn’t going to do better than the one I’m using.
Again, literally don’t care.
Do you really need me to tell you signet heal, blink, well of calamity, well of recall, and tw.
Is there anything else even worth putting on those slots in the bar? Other than another well?For OW PVE, I think there is because I believe I’ve optimized my build for it. If you want to prove me wrong, then you need to give me a build I can test to see if it’s better. Just telling me it doesn’t matter and you don’t care is not an objective test.
Nothing beats a thief in XYZ travel time, thief has way higher DPS than a Mesmer, higher stealth uptime at little cost. For “optimised open world” hands down thief is best for it whatever you plan to do.
Therefore your entire posts for the last page are as irrelevant as open world.
You’re comprehension is lacking … I’m not discussing what profession is better for OW content and neither was anyone else. And for the record, you’re right; thief is one, if not the best, OW profession.
My comprehension is spot on thank you. It is you who is lacking understanding. Read the original post, it’s comparing classes, reaper and mesmer in particular but people are also offering other possibilities for “a mainly dps class”.
You then started this rediculous thing about open world and spouting nonsense about optimised open world. If you’re really optimising then you will play the best class/build as per the definition of said word. That is thief by a crazy mile but not only that many other classes beat Mesmer hands down, engy/scrapper, ele/tempest, warrior/berserker, revenant, ranger/druid as they all have decent mobility, good access to swiftness, good AoE and tagging.
That’s without mentioning the complete absurdity of “optimising for open world” which as I said previously even a naked ranger can do and tag effectively without ever dying.
It might be ridiculous to you, but you don’t know what the OP was asking. I merely suggested he might be considering OW performance. Obviously that got a few people a little upset and started talk about how it doesn’t matter, when in fact it does.
It’s plenty easy to settle; We just need some people to provide builds to test to see if optimizing for OW is absurd or not. If those builds have differences in time to run through OW content, then it’s not as absurd as you want people to believe it is. I can already tell you it does because an optimized build does run the same OW content faster than one that is not, just like dungeons, etc… , but apparently, some people are stubborn just to be argumentative I guess.
Anyone willing to step up or are you just all talk again?
(edited by Obtena.7952)
It might be ridiculous to you, but you don’t know what the OP was asking. I merely suggested he might be considering OW performance. Obviously that got a few people a little upset and started talk about how it doesn’t matter, when in fact it does.
It’s plenty easy to settle; We just need some people to provide builds to test to see if optimizing for OW is absurd or not. If those builds have differences in time to run through OW content, then it’s not as absurd as you want people to believe it is. I can already tell you it does because an optimized build does run the same OW content faster than one that is not, just like dungeons, etc… , but apparently, some people are stubborn just to be argumentative I guess.
Anyone willing to step up or are you just all talk again?
It is absurd, because OW content comes with pittance for rewards, and no one cares about it outside of plebs.
It’s not that hard to figure out.
Also, you argued against staff.
Again, staff provides superior mobility to the mesmer.
And ALL YOU WANT TO DO IN OW CONTENT IS TAP.
You could run all mantras and staff, and still tap in no time, then move onto the next event.
How is this hard to figure out?
THE OPTIMIZED WAY TO PLAY OW CONTENT IS TO PLAY LIKE A kitten, THAT DOESN’T ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME!
“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
It is absurd, because OW content comes with pittance for rewards, and no one cares about it outside of plebs.
It’s not that hard to figure out.Also, you argued against staff.
Again, staff provides superior mobility to the mesmer.
And ALL YOU WANT TO DO IN OW CONTENT IS TAP.
You could run all mantras and staff, and still tap in no time, then move onto the next event.
Pittance or not, you can optimize a build for it.
The ‘build’ you suggested uses Chrono … Time Marches On already has a runspeed buff and a significant decrease in mobility-imparing conditions. What superior mobility is staff offering beyond that? Random boons? That’s hardly reliable as superior mobility if you ask me. Redundant skills that don’t stack with constantly active passive skills would not usually define an optimized build.
OW is more than just tapping events and giving yourself redundant skills with poor weapon choices like Staff with Chrono.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
It is absurd, because OW content comes with pittance for rewards, and no one cares about it outside of plebs.
It’s not that hard to figure out.Also, you argued against staff.
Again, staff provides superior mobility to the mesmer.
And ALL YOU WANT TO DO IN OW CONTENT IS TAP.
You could run all mantras and staff, and still tap in no time, then move onto the next event.Pittance or not, you can optimize a build for it.
The ‘build’ you suggested uses Chrono … Time Marches On already has a runspeed buff and a significant decrease in mobility-imparing conditions. What superior mobility is staff offering beyond that? Random boons? That’s hardly reliable as superior mobility if you ask me
OW is more than just tapping events and giving yourself redundant skills with poor weapon choices like Staff with Chrono.
Do you not know how phase retreat works?
Like, wow.
I don’t know how to respond to that.
“you have a 25% movespeed increase”
And thief has that + shortbow 5.
Why are you ignoring phase retreat? Lol.
“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
So stacking a staff with Chrono is optimal in OW PVE because it gives you superior mobility where mostly everything you kill is trash … because of phase retreat? Is that serious? I’m going to speculate that more than a single skill is necessary to make staff worth stacking for reduntant skills just because of phase retreat.
Still, if you think that’s the case, my offer still stands. Give me a build and I will test it. I have no issue doing that.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
So stacking a staff with Chrono is optimal in OW PVE … because of phase retreat? Is that serious?
As I’ve stated.
You literally need nothing else other than mobility.
Just tap events, and earn more rewards than all the kittens finishing the individual events for you.
HOW IS THIS HARD TO GRASP?
“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
Just because you stated it, doesn’t make it true. Optimal OW PVE builds are more than just giving yourself mobility because mobility isn’t enough to ensure your optimized … especially redundant mobility like you suggested by stacking staff and Chrono.
Just because you stated it, doesn’t make it true. Optimal OW PVE builds are more than just giving yourself mobility because mobility isn’t enough to ensure your optimized … especially redundant mobility like you suggested by stacking staff and Chrono.
Yeah, that redundant mobility of stacking signet move speed with shortbow.
Or warhorn with sword on warrior.
Or.
DO YOU SEE WHERE I’M GOING WITH THIS YET?
sigh hopeless.
Good day, sir.
Have fun with your super awesomely pointlessly optimized OW build.
I’ll enjoy tapping events and getting more than you ever will.
“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
If I understand where you are going, I can only say that OW PVE is more than just AoE tagging and mobility.
If I understand where you are going, I can only say that OW PVE is more than just AoE tagging and mobility.
Could’ve fooled me.
Because that’s literally all I do.
Unless you’re talking about map completion. Which has to be one of the most mind numbingly boring things in this game. And if you’re doing it on a mesmer, all I can say is I’ll pray for you.
Like I did for myself.
Seriously, it was boring.
“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
Not everyone thinks it’s boring and if you are optimized for it, it’s quite lucrative if you consider at the risk/reward of a relaxed PVE setting. I can’t force anyone to use optimized builds, but they exist and they do increase your returns for the time you spend in OW, just like they do for dungeons, etc … that’s of course, if you’re willing to experiment and try them out.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Not everyone thinks it’s boring and if you are optimized for it, it’s quite lucrative if you consider at the risk/reward of a relaxed PVE setting. I can’t force anyone to use optimized builds, but they exist and they do increase your returns for the time you spend in OW, just like they do for dungeons, etc … that’s of course, if you’re willing to experiment and try them out.
Low risk vs reward doesn’t make something lucrative, it makes something safe. Safe generally means less lucrative, not more.
Not everyone thinks it’s boring and if you are optimized for it, it’s quite lucrative if you consider at the risk/reward of a relaxed PVE setting. I can’t force anyone to use optimized builds, but they exist and they do increase your returns for the time you spend in OW, just like they do for dungeons, etc … that’s of course, if you’re willing to experiment and try them out.
I actually have no clue what OW content you’re doing, where having a build optimized for trash mobs would matter, and the rewards would be “lucrative”.
Especially map completion wise.
The only thing I can think of is farming black lion keys? Which is a gamble at best, and a complete waste of time 9/10.
Again, all you have to do is tap an event to get the rewards.
Tapping really doesn’t take much.
Farming SW is literally tapping events to get shovels, and then using said shovels in a chest farm.
Or just leeching kitten loads of shovels.
Neither of which are really all that lucrative.
“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
Not everyone thinks it’s boring and if you are optimized for it, it’s quite lucrative if you consider at the risk/reward of a relaxed PVE setting. I can’t force anyone to use optimized builds, but they exist and they do increase your returns for the time you spend in OW, just like they do for dungeons, etc … that’s of course, if you’re willing to experiment and try them out.
Low risk vs reward doesn’t make something lucrative, it makes something safe. Safe generally means less lucrative, not more.
To be fair, to make this kind of activity lucrative, you have to be more aware of what’s happening on the TP than say … having gold fall in your lap from doing a dungeon or getting that uber loot from chests in SW.
Not everyone thinks it’s boring and if you are optimized for it, it’s quite lucrative if you consider at the risk/reward of a relaxed PVE setting. I can’t force anyone to use optimized builds, but they exist and they do increase your returns for the time you spend in OW, just like they do for dungeons, etc … that’s of course, if you’re willing to experiment and try them out.
Low risk vs reward doesn’t make something lucrative, it makes something safe. Safe generally means less lucrative, not more.
To be fair, to make this kind of activity lucrative, you have to be more aware of what’s happening on the TP than say … having gold fall in your lap from doing a dungeon or getting that uber loot from chests in SW.
So are you trying to say that you make open world farming lucrative by playing the TP instead of farming open world? I mean…I don’t farm anything. I play the TP exclusively and then do what I want to do. I’m just saying that randomly killing stuff in the open world is about as far from lucrative as it’s possible to get.
Think what you like I suppose; my point isn’t to talk about what counts as lucrative or not. It’s to say that optimized PVE builds in OW increase your returns. (Assuming we’ve gotten past the idea that it’s ridiculous to optimize a build for OW in the first place.)
Think what you like I suppose; my point isn’t to talk about what counts as lucrative or not. It’s to say that optimized PVE builds in OW increase your returns. (Assuming we’ve gotten past the idea that it’s ridiculous to optimize a build for OW in the first place.)
Your idea of lucrative is related to whether or not it’s ridiculous to optimize a build for OW in the first place.
If there is no ROI. Why would I ever make, say, celestial gear for OW content?
OW has no ROI other than tapping events. Which can be done with extremely inefficient builds.
Cost effectiveness & time investment needs to be taken into account.
Considering, again, that running naked with a staff mesmer I’ll likely tap just as many events in SW as you would. I find it hard to believe it’s worth investing any time in anything other than mobility.
“Unused Development Initiative. We care so much
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
about your feedback, that we don’t even read it.” ~ Crystal Suzuki
Think what you like I suppose; my point isn’t to talk about what counts as lucrative or not. It’s to say that optimized PVE builds in OW increase your returns. (Assuming we’ve gotten past the idea that it’s ridiculous to optimize a build for OW in the first place.)
You’re literally saying ‘I can make open world lucrative by playing the trading post while doing open world content because it’s so mindless’. Yeah, that’s not making open world lucrative. That’s making money on the TP and has absolutely nothing to do with open world, optimized or not.
This entire series of posts is just one massive /facepalm.
AAAAAAAAnd fixing thread.