Guild Wars 2

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Obtena.7952:

Think what you like I suppose; my point isn’t to talk about what counts as lucrative or not. It’s to say that optimized PVE builds in OW increase your returns. (Assuming we’ve gotten past the idea that it’s ridiculous to optimize a build for OW in the first place.)

Your idea of lucrative is related to whether or not it’s ridiculous to optimize a build for OW in the first place.
If there is no ROI. Why would I ever make, say, celestial gear for OW content?

OW has no ROI other than tapping events. Which can be done with extremely inefficient builds.
Cost effectiveness & time investment needs to be taken into account.

Considering, again, that running naked with a staff mesmer I’ll likely tap just as many events in SW as you would. I find it hard to believe it’s worth investing any time in anything other than mobility.

I guess we simply have to have a difference of opinion if you can’t be open minded enough to consider that there are other ways to make money in OW than tapping events. /shrug.

Obtena.7952:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Obtena.7952:

Think what you like I suppose; my point isn’t to talk about what counts as lucrative or not. It’s to say that optimized PVE builds in OW increase your returns. (Assuming we’ve gotten past the idea that it’s ridiculous to optimize a build for OW in the first place.)

Your idea of lucrative is related to whether or not it’s ridiculous to optimize a build for OW in the first place.
If there is no ROI. Why would I ever make, say, celestial gear for OW content?

OW has no ROI other than tapping events. Which can be done with extremely inefficient builds.
Cost effectiveness & time investment needs to be taken into account.

Considering, again, that running naked with a staff mesmer I’ll likely tap just as many events in SW as you would. I find it hard to believe it’s worth investing any time in anything other than mobility.

I guess we simply have to have a difference of opinion if you can’t be open minded enough to consider that there are other ways to make money in OW than tapping events. /shrug.

Other ways aka playing the TP, not doing open world content.

Obtena.7952:

TheOneWhoSighs.7513:

Obtena.7952:

Think what you like I suppose; my point isn’t to talk about what counts as lucrative or not. It’s to say that optimized PVE builds in OW increase your returns. (Assuming we’ve gotten past the idea that it’s ridiculous to optimize a build for OW in the first place.)

Your idea of lucrative is related to whether or not it’s ridiculous to optimize a build for OW in the first place.
If there is no ROI. Why would I ever make, say, celestial gear for OW content?

OW has no ROI other than tapping events. Which can be done with extremely inefficient builds.
Cost effectiveness & time investment needs to be taken into account.

Considering, again, that running naked with a staff mesmer I’ll likely tap just as many events in SW as you would. I find it hard to believe it’s worth investing any time in anything other than mobility.

I guess we simply have to have a difference of opinion if you can’t be open minded enough to consider that there are other ways to make money in OW than tapping events. /shrug.

There is being open minded.
And then there is blindly believing that one thing that guy on the internet said without any evidence nor real argument to back it up.

You even said “Assuming we’ve gotten past”.
Know why you said that? Because you know we haven’t. Otherwise the conversation would’ve progressed naturally.

If you want me to even consider your guff, you’re going to have to prove it.

Otherwise, I’ll… actually continue to not play OW content because it’s dull. Outside of some daily world bosses on that off chance that I might get a precursor.

I don’t really see any reason to discuss it further; apparently I’m overthinking OW PVE with my optimized builds and playing the TP to profit reasonably for farming it; all in an apparent ruse

… even though if someone didn’t optimize builds and sell their mats are reasonable prices from doing other PVE content like dungeons, they would just be called a noob for not doing those things.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t really see any reason to discuss it further; apparently I’m overthinking OW PVE with my optimized builds and playing the TP to profit reasonably for farming it; all in an apparent ruse

… even though if someone didn’t optimize builds and sell their mats are reasonable prices from doing other PVE content like dungeons, they would just be called a noob for not doing those things.

I don’t think you understand. Playing the TP while farming open world doesn’t mean you’re profiting from open world -_-.

I don’t see how it doesn’t mean that. The mats from doing OW content have a value … just like the value of the mats you get from doing dungeons, etc… Do you not consider the gold you earn from selling dungeon loot/mats profiting from doing them? If you do, then how do you not consider the gold you earn from selling OW loot/mats profiting from OW?

Obtena.7952:

I don’t see how it doesn’t. The mats have a value … just like the value of the mats you get from doing dungeons, etc… Do you not consider the gold you earn from selling dungeon loot/mats profiting from doing them?

When I do a dungeon, I literally just throw a sell order in for everything of any value and I’m done.
Which, actually excludes mats. I mostly hoard mats. Then again, I’ve made a couple of legendaries, so that is the name of the game.

Thus, honestly mats don’t get calculated into any of my gold intake from dungeons runs.

As well, if you’ve already got knowledge of the market, why bother farming for things?
Just flip and be done. Like all the whales in this game do.

I would say you should not undervalue your time by doing that. Just because you don’t consider mats or whatever you sell on the TP to be part of your gold intake doesn’t mean it’s not. Everything I farm is tracked, I know exactly how much I make, though I am lax for actual gold drops from trash mobs; I’m not that much of a MacoSado.

Why not flip? The honest answer is 2 parts: 1) More risk than I’m willing to take on to make gold and 2) It’s the most simple matter to determine the value of my ROI in time ingame without spreadsheets, etc …

Obtena.7952:

I would say you should not undervalue your time by doing that. Just because you don’t consider mats or whatever you sell on the TP to be part of your gold intake doesn’t mean it’s not.

The problem is, if I sell it, then I’m likely to lose money because I’ll need to rebuy it later.
If I keep it, it’s not effectively doing anything for me atm.

As well, a lot of things in this game are unstable. So calculating current gold value for an item I intend to keep, is fallacious.

That’s fair. I mean, if you intend to use the item, it gets consumed and you don’t get gold for it, so it makes sense to not count is as profit. I’m careful about what I sell and when, exactly for that reason. OW PVE would not be good for me if I wasn’t.

So what does anything in the last 2 pages have to do with the OP who is specifically asking about DPS or do we need a mod to clean it up?

may be you guys never saw this guy’s video on reddit, but condi mesmer has a lot of potential. 30k blood tick is no joke.
He proclaimed for mesmer to have 21k dps with low might uptime and geomancy proc, which means it could’ve been higher.

Mesmer’s dps is not as garbage as people think, it just excels in supporting rather than dosing.

lol 30k bleed tick.

you will get 3-4k IF you can 3 staff clones, optimal target spacing aka 1 enemy and other nearby, no more. and about 10-15 seconds to ramp it up. provided all the clones hit the right target and the bounces hit the right target, with a average of about 1k burn on that’s a total of 4-5k dps average.

now keep in mid best targeting scenario is rare so reduce the application by 50% and you have an average much lower so you looking at about 3k at wich point you can shatter spam making better dps from torment and confusion, but as pve things usually stay still and don’t hit much torment deals half potential dmg and confusion tick low and pve mobs don’t attack fast so not much dps from that either.

if he says 30k bleed ticks hes is wrong, if he says 21kdps hes wrong.

the BCS condi is looking about 4-6k RNG dependant + about 1kdps from staff AA for a grand spiffing total of a generously estimate of 5-7K DPS!!!!!! if you pray to RNGesus hard enough

desu.2514:

lol 30k bleed tick.

you will get 3-4k IF you can 3 staff clones, optimal target spacing aka 1 enemy and other nearby, no more. and about 10-15 seconds to ramp it up. provided all the clones hit the right target and the bounces hit the right target, with a average of about 1k burn on that’s a total of 4-5k dps average.

now keep in mid best targeting scenario is rare so reduce the application by 50% and you have an average much lower so you looking at about 3k at wich point you can shatter spam making better dps from torment and confusion, but as pve things usually stay still and don’t hit much torment deals half potential dmg and confusion tick low and pve mobs don’t attack fast so not much dps from that either.

if he says 30k bleed ticks hes is wrong, if he says 21kdps hes wrong.

the BCS condi is looking about 4-6k RNG dependant + about 1kdps from staff AA for a grand spiffing total of a generously estimate of 5-7K DPS!!!!!! if you pray to RNGesus hard enough

Lolwut?

Max condi dps has been 3 iDuelists since June 23rd, even before they fixed/nerfed DD.

Staff clones aren’t used because they are higher dps, they are used because they have a shorter ramp-up time and lower cost of loss/shatter.

But iDuelists don’t just do more condi damage than clones, they also deal decent physical damage, in particular with the advent of Viper gear.

I agree that 30k bleed ticks is probably a gross exaggeration, and 21k dps seems unlikely even in an ideal scenario, but come on, at least learn the mechanics in play before you criticize :P

there are a lot of legal dps meter out there, i tried it once in the raid, my viper mesmer dps (full sinister trinkets and full rune of perplexity, plus condi food and utility) was only best than the full healer druid (slightly best). first dps in the raid was berserker staff ele.
numbers don’t lie. i have an identity crisis since. i always thought the low dps was just perceived as it takes a lot of effort for a mesmer to reach it’s full potential in a boss fight, but than i realized kitten dps is the ugly truth.
sure alacrity and shared quickness helped everybody else!

l2p, iv played mes exclusively for 3 years

average application of a duelist is as follows BCO with haste
8 attacks 50% traited 4 bleeds + 50% vipers+fury 4 bleeds for total average 8 bleeds per 6.5 secs

with 3 of these up, you don’t really do more dps as clones can and will stack higher
also when you loose a clone you have no issue replacing it, loose a duelist? change target? need to shatter? and everything goes fubar.

i duelist, its not bad but it doesn’t really offer you more damage, it does grant you a better burst, keep in mind you throw 3 I’d’s you require to use both CS and healing signet. so no 90sec or double warp there, no 90sec or 1mins worth of take root, and 1mins worth of take root is a lot of dmg in vipers.

you also loose the ability burst your shatter conf+torment when clone/phanto skills are up for roughly 12 torment and 16 confusion that only costs you roughly 3 secs of a full staff clones.

iD builds drop to a halt if you want to use the Mesmer to its full ability and if u gotta do everything mes has to offer to be remotely useful atm as all mes will agree.

but hey if you wanna make 3 average phantos and use AA while forgetting all the ways to maximize the little we have i really gotta l2p.

fyi its a meta build because its a low skill high reward, you can pick it up and do it. meta isn’t best, its most common.

desu.2514:

l2p, iv played mes exclusively for 3 years

average application of a duelist is as follows BCO with haste
8 attacks 50% traited 4 bleeds + 50% vipers+fury 4 bleeds for total average 8 bleeds per 6.5 secs

with 3 of these up, you don’t really do more dps as clones can and will stack higher
also when you loose a clone you have no issue replacing it, loose a duelist? change target? need to shatter? and everything goes fubar.

i duelist, its not bad but it doesn’t really offer you more damage, it does grant you a better burst, keep in mind you throw 3 I’d’s you require to use both CS and healing signet. so no 90sec or double warp there, no 90sec or 1mins worth of take root, and 1mins worth of take root is a lot of dmg in vipers.

you also loose the ability burst your shatter conf+torment when clone/phanto skills are up for roughly 12 torment and 16 confusion that only costs you roughly 3 secs of a full staff clones.

iD builds drop to a halt if you want to use the Mesmer to its full ability and if u gotta do everything mes has to offer to be remotely useful atm as all mes will agree.

but hey if you wanna make 3 average phantos and use AA while forgetting all the ways to maximize the little we have i really gotta l2p.

fyi its a meta build because its a low skill high reward, you can pick it up and do it. meta isn’t best, its most common.

i play mesmer since the very beginning of the game, it’s not a l2p issue, the necromancer with full cavalier still did better damage than me. i know every single mechanic of the mesmer, plus boss don’t even target me so i have all the time to think what i have to do.

i know it’s hard to accept when you invested all this time with one class, but it’s undeniably true, mesmer is one of the lowest dps in game or even average dps with a lot of efforts and condition to be met.
of course i don’t play the mesmer to outshine an ele in raw dps but for alacrity botting and double timewarp slavery. and that is all they want from you as a mesmer these days.

i also play other classes, and it’s stupid to deny that there is no difference.
for example a necro can have even more minions than mesmer and they all do damage and siphon health if you want, while mesmer clones don’t do damage, they are mostly there for shatters and they die when you look bad at them.
same goes with engi turrets. so why can’t mesmer clones and phantasms can’t be the same?
one can arguably say that they can be shattered for a “burst” damage, but so can turrets and minions…

edit: i realize now you weren’t even talking to me… sorry^^

Best case scenario dps for viper Mesmer is somewhere around 16k-18k dps. On paper this is actually competitive, but it’s the details that make it garbage.

Ramp-up time of laying duelists means that every phase change resets your dps for another 20+ seconds. Your damage is purely single target. You provide absolutely nothing useful to the group outside of the dps if you’re running a build to maximize that. Your dps doesn’t scale with quickness or alacrity on you, so it’s not even a benefit to have a chrono buffing you either.

found the video i was mentioning (it is not me, who recorded this)

This build uses rampager gears, not viper. it uses signets to keep up the condi duration.

desu.2514:

with 3 of these up, you don’t really do more dps as clones can and will stack higher

Since June 23rd, 100% bleed duration with staff and 3 staff clones on a stationary target stacks up to 25-26 bleeds. I have demonstrated this result both experimentally and theoretically on multiple occasions.
During the same period (before they fixed Duelist’s Discipline), 3 phantasmal duelists with Phantasmal Haste stacked up to 31-33 bleeds, with a wider variance (dipping down to 28 and rising up to 35). Again, I verified these results theoretically and experimentally on multiple occasions.
In short, you are 100% wrong: clones can’t and won’t stack higher bleeds. This result is even more dramatic with the fix/nerf and now buff of Duelist’s Discipline. In tests I was hitting about 42-48 stacks of bleeds after the buff. That’s still not going to hit 30k ticks, but it is far and away better than clones.

desu.2514:

also when you loose a clone you have no issue replacing it, loose a duelist? change target? need to shatter? and everything goes fubar.

Yes, I believe I addressed this, but neither it nor the rest of your post are relevant to your outlandish claim that the clone build has a better DPS than the iDuelist build. You didn’t bring it up as a better build, you brought it up to contradict the claim of high dps from someone else. But if the clone build is not the highest theoretical dps build (it isn’t), then it disproves nothing that the clone build can’t even hit 10k!

Don’t take any of this as a degradation of the clone build, that’s my main mesmer build. I love it, and have been running it since long before it was even really viable. I love the ability to safely solo anything in the Open World. But its dps really is terribad compared to other classes, especially these days.

lastnite.8690:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp0ltIN0Tkc

found the video i was mentioning (it is not me, who recorded this)

This build uses rampager gears, not viper. it uses signets to keep up the condi duration.

So the 30k bleed tick didn’t actually happen. That was 100% a floater overlap issue. The tick before it was 12k. The tick after it was 12k. He didn’t spike 3x the quantity of bleeds for 1 tick and then spike back down the next.

That being said, that video simply confirms what I’ve been saying. Condie mesmer has competitive single target damage on paper, but in reality suffers from a lot of problems. For example, the red guardian was 50% dead before he was even reaching his maximum bleed stacks for that fight….and he didn’t even bother trying to summon 3 duelists because it would take too long. Additionally, this build would be absolute garbage on gorseval because aoe damage to clear the adds/wall is essential. On sabetha it would be garbage if you ever ended up in a position with 2 of the bosses on the platform at once.

Basically, the build is great at target golem dps and awful at dps in a real situation.