Guild Wars 2

I felt like creating a thread that lists skills and abilities you feel are underperforming compared to the ‘standard power’ of skills & traits in the game.

If you want to add to the list, please write the skill- and/or trait name and a (short) motivation of why you think it is underperforming (+ possible solution) and I will add it to the list.

So, I got a few skills and traits on my mind:

Skills:

• Ether Clone (Scepter #1)
  The Clone that spawns from Ether Clone (or clones that spawn with the Scepter in the Main-Hand, in general) has no secondary effect tied to its attack and it is pretty much useless in that regard. All other Clones have at least some effect tied to their #1 (and GS-Clones can at least be viably traited for Bleed stacking, due to the 3-hit nature of the #1)
  Solution: Give the Scepter #1 an additional effect.

• The Prestige (Torch #4)
  While being a nice skill, both in effect and concept, I feel the need to channel the skill and wait for entire 3s for the Burn is not that great. Being able to cancel it/trigger the burning effect early would be a good solution.
  Solution: Make it possible to trigger the burn effect (/cancel the stealth effect) early if needed.

• Phantasmal Mage (Torch #5)
  The rate of attack and the effect of the attack of the Phantasmal Mage makes it really horrible compared to other Phantasms. It is not viable to use even when completely specced for it. Going with the concept of ‘punish when opponent attacks’, I’d suggest to increase the stack of Confusion the Phantasmal Mage applies (from 1 to 5?)
  Solution: Increase stacks of Confusion applied (1->5?).

Traits

• Halting Strikes (Domination T1 Major)
  The damage of Halting Strikes is really pitiful considering its prerequisites. For an effect that requires:
  - T1 Major Trait slot
  - The use of an interrupting skill (Daze, Stun)
  - Actually interrupting the enemy
  it is incredibly lacking in pay-off. It is not worth taking even when fully specced around it.
  (Haven’t tested the other ‘on interrupt’-traits)
  Solution: Drastically increase the damage (and/or scaling) of the Trait.

• Wastrel’s Punishment (Domination T3 Minor)
  For being a T3 Minor Trait, it’s effect (with the requirement it comes with) is not really on-par with other proffessions’ equivalents – this coupled with the fact that most opponents actually fight back=‘not being inactive’ makes it even worse.
  I like the concept behind it (and its reference to GW1), so I believe a straight % buff would be a good solution.
  Solution: Increase the ‘Increased Damage %’ (5% -> 10%?).

• Confounding Suggestions (Domination T3 Major)
  A chance to get a 1s stun whenever you daze is not at all worth taking in my opinion, usually a daze and a stun is used for the same purpose – i.e. interrupting or disabling your foe – only that a stun is usually to be preferred. It is really not that useful to stun a dazed target.
  Solution: Change it into something else.

• Prismatic Understanding (Chaos T3 Major)
  As Mesmers don’t really get as much use of the Stealth mechanic as e.g. a Thief (with a lot of traits benefiting Stealth and a lot of ways to get into Stealth), I feel having ‘increase Stealth duration by 1s’ as a T3 Major Trait is not really needed – I’d much rather see something else in this spot.
  Solution: Replace with something more useful.

• Imbued Diversion (Illusions T3 Major)
  This is, imo, a very narrow/niche Trait for its place – I’d like to see something with at least a little more diversity here.
  Solution: Increase the diversity of the Trait.

Conditions

• Confusion
  It is very hard to use the Confusion condition viably compared to other conditions (such as Bleed), mostly because of the low duration of most of the Confusion Skills – but the backlash from Confusion isn’t really that impressive either (for the effort it takes to build and apply Confusion).
  Solution: Make Confusion either more impactful (higher backlash) or longer duration (easier to stack).

Thank you for reading.

—reserved post—

What about over-performing skills and traits? :P

What a knowledgeable and well thought out argument Roven. I can tell from your concise post that you’ve spent a lot of time playing, learning, and applying the ways of the mesmer. I don’t know how Anet would be able to properly balance this class without the wealth of your research and constructive criticism you’ve provided. You have any campaign plans to run for the Presidency in the future?

“What about over-performing skills and traits? :P” will forever be etched in the history of men.

Aero.4829:

What a knowledgeable and well thought out argument Roven.

Well, I’d first point out that it’s not an argument, it’s a question.

I understand your point though, it was rather a short and unhelpful post perhaps. My apologies.

Actually, I do think this thread is a good idea, and it is a good starting list. The point I guess I was trying to make (admittedly poorly) is that perhaps a more balanced feedback thread, noting issues as well, may be more comprehensive.

Anyway, let me try to make a contribution. I was testing some of the Mesmer skills without any additional stats, traits or bonuses today to better understand the interplay of our illusion-boosting and illusion-destruction spells. My initial proposal for your consideration would be:

Damage Phantasms (Illusionary Duelist, Illusionary Warden, Illusionary Swordsman, Illusionary Warlock):

• Based on a small sample of tests across the phantasms, these particular summons deliver hundreds of percent more than the Mage/Disenchanter in terms of damage per second to a single target, which would seem clearly disproportionate.
• Short-term solution: Revise the damage of these phantasms downwards and the damage of the mage/disenchanter upwards, to expand the range of viable choices. Perhaps link the damage caused to the number of phantasms already on that target? That might allow for phantasm-specific builds to use phantasms for damage, but most other builds to focus on their utility and link with the profession mechanics instead?
• Long-term solution: If at all possible, try to shift more of the damage back to choices by the Mesmer or poor reactions taken by the target, rather than what appears to be a rather noticeable proportion of our damage contributed passively through quickly-replaced summons.

Conditions
Confusion
It is very hard to use the Confusion condition viably compared to other conditions (such as Bleed), mostly because of the low duration of most of the Confusion Skills – but the backlash from Confusion isn’t really that impressive either (for the effort it takes to build and apply Confusion).
Solution: Make Confusion either more impactful (higher backlash) or longer duration (easier to stack).

Might want to tweak this to note that:
- This is primarily a PvE concern at core
- It would also be helpful to do a QA check that the 33% confusion duration trait and other condition duration sources (Dom and runes) are affecting all sources of confusion appropriately (Cry of Frustration, trait for Confuse on Shatter, trait for Confuse on illusion death, etc)

EDIT: Why did that guy randomly go nuclear on Roven for asking a question? Anyway…

You were doing great until you hit Confusion. It is very easy to get 20+ stacks on single targets and that’s absurdly strong in PvP. It’s not as dramatic in PvE but considering it takes very, very little investment it’s not a problem. “Confusion” builds are goofy and poor though. Confusion just comes from in most builds.

You hit the nail on the head with Confounding Suggestions. Dumbest trait available in my opinion. Atleast Descent into Madness has funny uses.

Rhyno.7084:

EDIT: Why did that guy randomly go nuclear on Roven for asking a question? Anyway…

You were doing great until you hit Confusion. It is very easy to get 20+ stacks on single targets and that’s absurdly strong in PvP. It’s not as dramatic in PvE but considering it takes very, very little investment it’s not a problem. “Confusion” builds are goofy and poor though. Confusion just comes from in most builds.

You hit the nail on the head with Confounding Suggestions. Dumbest trait available in my opinion. Atleast Descent into Madness has funny uses.

Unfortunately, your analysis of confusion is lacking as well. Yes, its possible (read:not easy) to get 20+ stacks of confusion on single targets, and is in fact the build that I ran in sPVP during BWE3. Unfortunately, the super high confusion stack will last a most of 2-3 seconds. This gives it absolutely massive destructive value in pvp when used properly, but unfortunately is nearly pointless in pve. You could get lucky and get 1 large hit from it, but even that will be far less than any other build utilizing pure damage (and bleeds, incidentally).

Mesmer needs a second condition based weapon to go alongside staff. I’d like to see scepter as that weapon, in which case skill 1 needs to lose the clone so it doesn’t overwrite superior staff clones and ideally its attack should be half power half condition.

The block on the 2 skill could also use some work. Blind is a desired effect but the bolt is hard to land and using the skill while being attacked can trigger the block too quickly to activate the blind. I’d like to see these effects reversed. The block creates a blind and the active ability shoots a bolt that does damage and creates a clone.

Sword skill 3 imo the range is too short. Also the swap immob consistently fails against moving targets either due to the immob effect having too short of a range or the clone not being able to keep up with moving targets.

Geatsword mindstab is still underwhelming even after the animation speed increase. Can we just make this auto centered on current target and do something about the pathetic aoe radius. Normalizing the spread on spatial surge or removing it entirely would make my day as well.

Mantras are all underwhelming. The heal is especially bad. Also I don’t think anyone uses sig of midnight or inspirations. Probably because they are largely redundant with mantras and have almost no supporting traits.

Can we change the thread title to something like “Things I would like to change about mesmer?”

Some of your least favorites are on my most favorite list.

Prestige I like as is. Prismatic Understanding too. And Confounding Suggestions – you say a stun is preferable to a daze, but don’t like a trait that lets half your dazes be stuns. Wait, what?

There are underpowered skill/traits in the class, but you not liking something doesn’t mean it needs buffing.

Voodoo Tina.4180:

And Confounding Suggestions – you say a stun is preferable to a daze, but don’t like a trait that lets half your dazes be stuns. Wait, what?

I’m not sure what’s confusing about that. Confounding Suggestions is essentially a chance for a 1 second snare when you daze. If something can’t cast I’m not really worried about where it walks in one second.

So you don’t prefer a stun to a daze.

So you don’t prefer a stun to a daze.

What? I don’t think I could have been any more clearer there. If you’re just looking to argue go somewhere else.

Read your own post.

You could be clearer. You say that generally stun is preferred to daze.

The trait gives you 50% chance to stun on daze.

If half of your dazes stun, and you prefer stun to daze, what’s your problem?

Voodoo Tina.4180:

Read your own post.
You could be clearer. You say that generally stun is preferred to daze.
The trait gives you 50% chance to stun on daze.
If half of your dazes stun, and you prefer stun to daze, what’s your problem?

Alright, let me try to explain his point:

First lets run down on what each thing does:
- Daze: Interrupts and prevents the target from using skills for a period of time.
- Stun: Interrupts, immobilizes, and incapacitates foes for a short duration.

The difference between a Daze and a Stun is really just the immobilize. Both usually last 1 or 2 seconds top.

Why would you waste a Tier 3 talent to have 50% chance of immobilizing someone when you cast a daze? They already can’t do anything… and it’s not even “Turn your dazes into stuns” (100%), it’s unreliable.

Yes, stun is better than daze, but not to justify a 50% chance to turn one into other as a tier 3 talent, it should be a Tier 1 talent at best. Tier 2 if the chance was 100%, since all you get extra is the immobilize anyway.

As it is, the talent is useless, unreliable and a bad joke for a Tier 3 talent.

Did you understand now? should someone make a graphic or draw a picture to you?

Confusion from Phantasmal Mage (Torch5) lasts for 9 sec while he attacks every 6s. Currently every stack of confusion I place deals 177 damage. Now do the math 177 by the number of actions you can do within 9s.

Plus it grants retaliation. Although this boon may be more mysterious, be sure that it can deliver great damages.

timecookie.8570:

Confusion from Phantasmal Mage (Torch5) lasts for 9 sec while he attacks every 6s. Currently every stack of confusion I place deals 177 damage. Now do the math 177 by the number of actions you can do within 9s.

Plus it grants retaliation. Although this boon may be more mysterious, be sure that it can deliver great damages.

Let’s say your opponent uses 10 skills in those 9 seconds (a reasonably generous estimate). He takes 1770 damage.

Compare this with any direct damage Phantasm, they easily do 2000+ damage with Power builds and can crit too. Actually, forget direct damage, compare this with a condition-based Duelist (Sharper Images): mine can easily apply 4 or 5 Bleeds in a salvo, that’s about 2400 – 3000 damage right there; plus about 500 – 800 direct damage. Oh and it has half the CD of iMage and can proc combo fields.

As for Retaliation, iMage’s only lasts 3 seconds and the damage scales off Power, so if you’re built for condition damage (as you would) it wouldn’t be that significant.

Now tell me again that iMage is fine.

The Kay.6539:

Did you understand now? should someone make a graphic or draw a picture to you?

I understand. You don’t so I’ll draw you a picture.

While dazed you are no helpless. While stunned you are, unless you have a stun break. Stunned, you can’t dodge or run away. That makes a huge difference to me. If you chose to just stand there and get beat while dazed, you deserve to die. If you never pvp’d this trait is a waste. If you use your dazes in pvp, it’s gold.

Suggesting it should be a 100% to stun on daze is INSANE. I would not complain, but just imagine this: power lock (1 sec) > counter blade (1 sec) > power lock (1 sec) > magic bullet (2 sec) > diversion (1-3 aoe or up to 4 sec, time to recast mantra) power lock (1 sec) – as it is Confounding Suggestions take that chain from annoying to dangerous. 100% stun would be rediculous. Mesmer is already good at pvp, a stun lock build like that would be impossible to defeat. Unless you roll your own Mesmer and stun then first!

The thread topic isn’t really about stuns so back to my point. There’s a difference between a trait or skill you don’t want to use and one that is actually useless. Most of the problems in this thread are a question of preference, there is actually very little that’s really useless.

I think confusion is very power in its current state. It’s payoff is best against other players (WvW, PvP) than it is in PvE. However even in PvE it is still useful. Reasons I ok with confusion:

1. Easy to apply through weapons and shatters.

2. Don’t have to trait deep to improve it (10 pts in Illusions which also gives +condition)

3. Does excellent damage. I’m lvl 47 and I regularly get 300-400 pt confusion ticks. Compare this to my autoattacks which are in low 100 at best. I do have decent +condition damage tho and that damage is for a moderate confusion stack of 4 to 6.

4. It’s amazing in WvW — I think most people just don’t see the purple swirl above their heads or something. If an opponent is at 25% health, hitting them with scepter 3 will usually result in them committing seppuku. Maybe this makes it a noob killer, dont’ know / don’t care, but I do like it.

I’m amused at how you went from “Thank you for reading” to ripping on every person to post here.

I understand. You don’t so I’ll draw you a picture.

You really can’t wrap your head around the fact that nobody is saying a stun isn’t worse than a daze? You aren’t effectively gaining a stun. You are gaining a 50% chance to immobilize. Even if you do an entire build based around it, you’re going to end up immobilizing them for maybe two seconds during an exhaustive combo.

If you want to waste slots on that go ahead. It’s under performing relative to other traits which is why it was brought up.

Too many situational skills, and most of them are lacking in terms of power. I agree, either you make the situational effect very powerful, or make a passive effect that isnt so powerful, right now its situational underpowered effect.

Thank you all for your contribution and great discussion, I’m glad this thread got a positive response. I will answer some of the posts:

• Short-term solution: Revise the damage of these phantasms downwards and the damage of the mage/disenchanter upwards, to expand the range of viable choices.

I’d rather want them to fix what is actually broken, than to have a few broken skills drag down everything else to their (then) semi-broken state.

EasymodeX.4062:

Confusion

Might want to tweak this to note that:
- This is primarily a PvE concern at core
- It would also be helpful to do a QA check that the 33% confusion duration trait and other condition duration sources (Dom and runes) are affecting all sources of confusion appropriately (Cry of Frustration, trait for Confuse on Shatter, trait for Confuse on illusion death, etc)

Yeah it is probably more of a PvE concern, and perhaps my impression of it is affected by the many bugs around the Confusion Traits – perhaps, once those are fixed, it isn’t that big of on issue.

Voodoo Tina.4180:

Some of your least favorites are on my most favorite list.
There are underpowered skill/traits in the class, but you not liking something doesn’t mean it needs buffing.

I have tried to be as objective as possible, and I think I brought up valid concerns.

The Kay.6539:

Voodoo Tina.4180:

Read your own post.
You could be clearer. You say that generally stun is preferred to daze.
The trait gives you 50% chance to stun on daze.
If half of your dazes stun, and you prefer stun to daze, what’s your problem?

Alright, let me try to explain his point:

First lets run down on what each thing does:
- Daze: Interrupts and prevents the target from using skills for a period of time.
- Stun: Interrupts, immobilizes, and incapacitates foes for a short duration.

The difference between a Daze and a Stun is really just the immobilize. Both usually last 1 or 2 seconds top.

Why would you waste a Tier 3 talent to have 50% chance of immobilizing someone when you cast a daze? They already can’t do anything… and it’s not even “Turn your dazes into stuns” (100%), it’s unreliable.

Yes, stun is better than daze, but not to justify a 50% chance to turn one into other as a tier 3 talent, it should be a Tier 1 talent at best. Tier 2 if the chance was 100%, since all you get extra is the immobilize anyway.

As it is, the talent is useless, unreliable and a bad joke for a Tier 3 talent.

Agreed Rhyno and The Kay.

Embolism.8106:

Let’s say your opponent uses 10 skills in those 9 seconds (a reasonably generous estimate). He takes 1770 damage.

Compare this with (…….)
Now tell me again that iMage is fine.

Great analysis, thank you!

Mongo.2490:

I’m amused at how you went from “Thank you for reading” to ripping on every person to post here.

I’m amused at your reading skills, I haven’t even responded to this thread yet until now.

Chumsy.5714:

Too many situational skills, and most of them are lacking in terms of power. I agree, either you make the situational effect very powerful, or make a passive effect that isnt so powerful, right now its situational underpowered effect.

Exactly!

Please continue with the great discussion(s) and add more thoughts, let this thread grow!

EasymodeX.4062:

- This is primarily a PvE concern at core
- It would also be helpful to do a QA check that the 33% confusion duration trait and other condition duration sources (Dom and runes) are affecting all sources of confusion appropriately (Cry of Frustration, trait for Confuse on Shatter, trait for Confuse on illusion death, etc)

I’ve done some of testing of Master of Misdirection and I’ve found the following:

The 33% extra Confusion duration is applied correctly to:

• Confusing Images
• Cry of Frustration (note that the tooltip is wrong, so it actually goes from 3 to 4 seconds)
• All shatters when Illusionary Retribution is active
• Physical projectile finisher on an ethereal field
• Blinding Befuddlement

It does NOT extend the Confusion caused by:

• Phantasmal Mage
• Confusing Combatants
• Siren’s Call (when used by clones)

It works partially for:

• Confusing Enchantments – adds an extra 1.33sec, which is 33% of the base 4sec duration… but this doesn’t make it 33% longer than the actual shortest duration of 4.8sec (i.e. including the bonus from the Domination line)

It’s definitely inconsistent, and in my opinion it should be considered to be ‘underperforming’. Confusion in general feels very hit-and-miss in PvE; a lot of mobs attack so slowly that even a 5-second Confusion is lucky to catch a single attack. Since we’ve already got a PvE/PvP split for the damage from Confusion, it feels like it wouldn’t be too much to ask for the duration to be buffed in PvE as well.

Ether Clone (Scepter #1)
The Clone that spawns from Ether Clone (or clones that spawn with the Scepter in the Main-Hand, in general) has no secondary effect tied to its attack and it is pretty much useless in that regard. All other Clones have at least some effect tied to their #1 (and GS-Clones can at least be viably traited for Bleed stacking, due to the 3-hit nature of the #1)
Solution: Give the Scepter #1 an additional effect.

let the clones create clones
I’m not suggesting that they should be GOOD clones, make them look like phantasms or even just a slight visual effect on the clone making them look like they have distortion, then, when they shatter, make them do damage based on how many clones they’ve summoned

so at the moment it’s: 3 clones that do nothing
with the cloneception: 3 clones that summon other clones which do nothing except add to scepter’s shatter damage, OR, just make the clones appear as distortion effects, when they shatter, they do more damage/add more confusion/longer stun/more distortion on you

or possibly make it so that when the sceptre overwrites, it counts as a mind wrack/applies confusion?

Thank you Aethan, that is a great post/great testing! You should write it in the Bug Thread aswell

That sounds like it could be quite annoying for the Mesmer itself Calcifire, but it’s worth a thought I’d rather see the #1 apply Confusion though, as I think it would make Confusion builds more viable aswell as give the Scepter a more defined role.

If you take Clone death traits, Clones spawning Clones can get really powerful. Personally I think it might not be as bad an idea as it seems if Anet still intends for the Scepter to be a Shatter-centric weapon, because as it is if you want a Shatter build you’d use Deceptive Evasion. Scepter’s Clone generation needs to be much higher if it wants to compete with that DE can churn out.

Illusionary Riposte or whatever for the sword off-hand.
And any traits that add onto daze/stun when we barely have daze/stun skills.

Aesa.4819:

Skills:

• Ether Clone (Scepter #1)
  The Clone that spawns from Ether Clone (or clones that spawn with the Scepter in the Main-Hand, in general) has no secondary effect tied to its attack and it is pretty much useless in that regard. All other Clones have at least some effect tied to their #1 (and GS-Clones can at least be viably traited for Bleed stacking, due to the 3-hit nature of the #1)
  Solution: Give the Scepter #1 an additional effect.

What about adding an object combo-finisher? it seems mesmers have a slight lack of those (only 2 skills currently, if I remember correctly)

Ether Clone definately need some work. Personally, my preferred solution might not be favored by some others, but it would add a very interesting dynamic to the weapon: Make the clone generation an 80% blast finisher. Giving Ether Bolt confusion would be helpful, too.

Prismatic Understanding is very underwhelming for a tier 3 trait. I’d like to see it add 2s of stealth. But, the biggest problem with it right now is that it actually hurts The Prestige. Longer stealth means longer until you burn the target. The Prestige really needs to be changed to burn immediately and then blind when stealth ends (and apply the blind even if you cancel it early). These 2 fixes would make the torch useful. Helping iMage wouldn’t hurt either.

Ether clone, prismatic understanding, confusion, on-interrupt damage and inactive trait…

Yeap, all of my “wouldn’t poke with a fifty-foot pole skills”
I’m for this.

These skills and traits make me face palm every time I hover my mouse over them, I would love to see these reworked…