Guild Wars 2

So I am working on a condi build. The build itself doesn’t terribly matter much, aside from knowing that I am using the % of toughness to condi damage trait (which I may drop depending on what people say in response to this). I tried a couple different stat builds for the equipment, namely Viper and trailblazer for the weapons and armor, a sinister amulet, and alternatingly between carrion and rabid for the trinkets (I don’t have access to 4 stat trinkets, or sinister trinkets other than amulet at this time, working on it eventually), and Runes of the Undead for more toughness > condi damage. The thing I noticed is this: The difference for any direct damage was massive (which I expected), but the difference to condi was relatively insignificant (seemingly, I could be wrong) between any of the combinations. (I was looking at the damage for Scepter 1 and 3 specifically, not that it should matter which condi skill I looked at for damage comparisons). I was theorycrafting on the build website everyone uses, if that helps.

So, am I wrong in wondering if the condi damage isn’t scaling as much as it should? I expected it to make more of a difference.

Let me know if more info is needed.

Uh….did you try noting what your actual condition damage was at between those stat sets? That’s obviously why you’re not seeing a big difference. Viper, carrion, rabid, and I think trailblazer too all have condie as their top stat. The difference in condition damage between any of those sets should be around 10%-15% variation tops.

All ascended gear (for ease of comparison):

Trailblazer w/carrion trinkets did 205/410 torment w/273 direct damage (etherbolt)
(Condi 1927, Toughness 1692, Power 1466, Precision 1000 (4%))

Viper/carrion 196/392 w/384 DD
(Condi 1826, Toughness 1100, Power 2058, Precision 1325 (19.48%))

Trailblazer/rabid 212/425 w/186 DD
(Condi 2006, Toughness 2158, Power 1000, Precision 1466 (26.19%))

Viper/rabid 203/407 w/ 297 DD
(Condi 1905, Toughness 1566, Power 1592, Precision 1791 (41.67%))

(listing precision because of the Sharper Images trait)

The stat conversion traits or gear are usually targeted to correspond to about 5-10% increase. That is similar to the amount you get from most other multipliers. Since you are comparing stats that are otherwise similar on the condi, it makes sense that you get very little differences. Actually, your conversion often only makes up for the fact that you are using 4-stats amulets which have a bit less of the main stat (1050 vs 1200).

At the end, you have about 5-10% differences in condi damage between your different setups and that translates to a bit less percentage difference (since there is a non-zero base tick) on the condition tick. Nothing surprising here.

Ok, just trying to understand it better. The mathing of this stuff sometimes confuses me. Still can’t get it to stick in my head why the sigil of bursting is bad, for instance.

Is this for PvE?

If so, I don’t suggest any of those stat sets…

You should aim for full sinister.

Your primary source of damage is going to be bleeding, you want as much Condi and Prec as possible. If you want the extra toughness for survivability, then you can use some rabid until you’re more comfortable.

This is what I use:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQJArKnsIiNoBWoBUrhlcjqMAStWrWtero/wSMDA-ThhPABbq8ryTAoHIT1fAY/BtUCS5DAgUALqsC-e

The blank areas change depending on what I’m doing, but that’s the general build.
W/O food and no additional buffs it puts out about 8k DPS on a stationary golem.

If you don’t want to use Chrono, then the runes and sigils change.

I’m not sure if this was even helpful, I’m confused about what exactly you’re asking…

bearshaman.3421:

Ok, just trying to understand it better. The mathing of this stuff sometimes confuses me. Still can’t get it to stick in my head why the sigil of bursting is bad, for instance.

It’s bad since it only improves base condi damage but not other sources so it’s not as good as you initially think. So basically a 6% increase to gear stats but not from the bonuses from might and banners which makes it less than 6% in the end. Compare this to sigil of geomancy which can add 6 stacks of bleeds over time if you hit 100% bleed duration. If you can stack 50 bleed stacks, 6 more is a 12% increase. If you stack 100 bleed stacks, now you are finally at a 6% increase over base (This isn’t going to happen solo). If you haven’t capped duration yet, sigil of malice at 10% duration or 20% duration for bleeds are also just better in the end for increasing DPS. So that’s also why sigil of bursting is bad because more conditions and condi duration are just better options.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

bearshaman.3421:

Ok, just trying to understand it better. The mathing of this stuff sometimes confuses me. Still can’t get it to stick in my head why the sigil of bursting is bad, for instance.

It’s bad since it only improves base condi damage but not other sources so it’s not as good as you initially think. So basically a 6% increase to gear stats but not from the bonuses from might and banners which makes it less than 6% in the end. Compare this to sigil of geomancy which can add 6 stacks of bleeds over time if you hit 100% bleed duration. If you can stack 50 bleed stacks, 6 more is a 12% increase. If you stack 100 bleed stacks, now you are finally at a 6% increase over base (This isn’t going to happen solo). If you haven’t capped duration yet, sigil of malice at 10% duration or 20% duration for bleeds are also just better in the end for increasing DPS. So that’s also why sigil of bursting is bad because more conditions and condi duration are just better options.

Has bursting always been like that? I knew it didn’t scale off traits/banners/signet of dom/etc, but I swore it scaled off of might… I had to log in to test it.

This changes everything. You just ruined my evening. :O! I need to recalculate my rune and sigil options with this information.

Mikkel.8427:

Has bursting always been like that? I knew it didn’t scale off traits/banners/signet of dom/etc, but I swore it scaled off of might… I had to log in to test it.

This changes everything. You just ruined my evening. :O! I need to recalculate my rune and sigil options with this information.

Yes, annoying but apparently … intended? Makes no sense whatsoever if you ask me but hey …. that’s how it is …

Still, Earth is only good against single target and Geo won’t be that amazing if you’re not constantly swapping weapons. So Bursting is also totally justified and fine.

You see that they have a lot of damage multipliers in traits or runes, while they have very few condition damage multipliers. They usually have additive condition damage boost. I would guess they simply didn’t implement this from the beginning, so the bursting multiplier is somewhat hardcoded in a clumsy way.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

It’s bad since it only improves base condi damage but not other sources so it’s not as good as you initially think. So basically a 6% increase to gear stats but not from the bonuses from might and banners which makes it less than 6% in the end.

Yep that’s the part I keep forgetting. Thanks!

Mikkel.8427:

Is this for PvE?

If so, I don’t suggest any of those stat sets…

You should aim for full sinister.

Your primary source of damage is going to be bleeding, you want as much Condi and Prec as possible. If you want the extra toughness for survivability, then you can use some rabid until you’re more comfortable.

This is what I use:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQJArKnsIiNoBWoBUrhlcjqMAStWrWtero/wSMDA-ThhPABbq8ryTAoHIT1fAY/BtUCS5DAgUALqsC-e

The blank areas change depending on what I’m doing, but that’s the general build.
W/O food and no additional buffs it puts out about 8k DPS on a stationary golem.

If you don’t want to use Chrono, then the runes and sigils change.

I’m not sure if this was even helpful, I’m confused about what exactly you’re asking…

I intentionally didn’t discuss what I was doing with the rest of the build, to keep focus on the trait sets. Viper’s has been practically the meta since HoT dropped, and I can’t see a reason to take Sinister over Viper. If I’m wrong please explain.

Important note: As I don’t have all the sinister/viper trinkets unlocked, I’m looking for viable options.

Rabid seems good not for the toughness alone, but for the boost to condi that toughness offers (especially with the runes of the undead as well). Not sure if it’s worth taking that trait or rune set in terms of what it does for damage, I don’t know. Also, extra precision works well with the Sharper Images trait.

Carrion was the other option mostly for being a hybrid set (power and condi), and it seems hybrid is generally the way to go.

I am open to suggestions. Also, currently don’t have chrono unlocked, but plan to when I have time. (working alot). So suggestions for base mesmer as well as chrono are welcome.

IF we’re talking about PvE-

Vipers is meta for most professions, but Sinister works better on Mes because it heavily relies on the sharper images trait for its DPS. I use mostly Viper for my Ele’s hybrid damage build, as an example, because very little of its condition application is reliant on crits and the few traits that do require crits to activate have ICDs.

Chaotic Transference is a great trait, but its not worth investing in toughness gear.
You have a base of 1000 toughness at lvl 80, w/o any gear investment you get a free extra 100 condi damage. A full set of Rabid gives an extra 960 (I believe) Toughness. That only translates to an extra 96 condi damage from the trait…. If you use Sinister instead you’d have gotten 960 power, which will easily out damage the measly extra 96 condi damage you converted.

Rune of the undead- Same logic applies. There are many options that will serve you better.

Now if you’re talking about WvW or PvP-

The conversation is completely different. You’ll be running a shatter build that relies on torment and confusion and toughness actually has value in those game modes. Vipers also works great for condi shatter.

You are giving me the impression you’re overestimating the scaling of the Condition Damage stat on actual damage output, though. Here is a link to the wiki with a condition damage scaling table-

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage

If you’d like more detailed advice you need to give us more information like-

What is the goal of your build?
Game mode?
Do you care about min/max?
What weapons were you planning to use?
Are conveniences like movement speed important to you?

Mikkel.8427:

IF we’re talking about PvE-

Vipers is meta for most professions, but Sinister works better on Mes because it heavily relies on the sharper images trait for its DPS. I use mostly Viper for my Ele’s hybrid damage build, as an example, because very little of its condition application is reliant on crits and the few traits that do require crits to activate have ICDs.

Chaotic Transference is a great trait, but its not worth investing in toughness gear.
You have a base of 1000 toughness at lvl 80, w/o any gear investment you get a free extra 100 condi damage. A full set of Rabid gives an extra 960 (I believe) Toughness. That only translates to an extra 96 condi damage from the trait…. If you use Sinister instead you’d have gotten 960 power, which will easily out damage the measly extra 96 condi damage you converted.

Rune of the undead- Same logic applies. There are many options that will serve you better.

Now if you’re talking about WvW or PvP-

The conversation is completely different. You’ll be running a shatter build that relies on torment and confusion and toughness actually has value in those game modes. Vipers also works great for condi shatter.

You are giving me the impression you’re overestimating the scaling of the Condition Damage stat on actual damage output, though. Here is a link to the wiki with a condition damage scaling table-

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage

If you’d like more detailed advice you need to give us more information like-

What is the goal of your build?
Game mode?
Do you care about min/max?
What weapons were you planning to use?
Are conveniences like movement speed important to you?

Actually what you said puts several things into a good perspective for me, in addition to other contributions earlier in the thread. I believe I have my questions answered and my confusion cleared up. Thanks All!!!

As for the rest, I should be good to go on figuring those out. I’m not new to the game, I just sometimes get confused on the math.