Guild Wars 2

Like title says, only warrior is in worse state, because warrior don’t have portal and illusion of life. Honestly, mesmers are taken only for our utilities. Yes we have condi removal skills but:
1. All of them are bad or have quite long cd.
2. Cleansing from shatters is rather joke( Grand Mater trait…really?)
3. Almost all(decent) condi removal skills are from utilities.

Please Anet do something with condi meta(i don’t like it and IMO its quite brainless way to fight, but its topic for diferent post) or give us tools which allow us to play competitively in tPVP.

Well I simply don’t agree with you. We have a substantial amount of CD removal it is just that many people feel that other abilities are more important to take.

I run with torch and the domination trait for it and have pretty much no issue with conditions at all. Honestly this isn’t a L2P situation it is simply that you gota sacrifice a bit to get the condition removal but it can be done and you can see be very useful to your team.

Phent.9350:

Like title says, only warrior is in worse state, because warrior don’t have portal and illusion of life. Honestly, mesmers are taken only for our utilities. Yes we have condi removal skills but:
1. All of them are bad or have quite long cd.
2. Cleansing from shatters is rather joke( Grand Mater trait…really?)
3. Almost all(decent) condi removal skills are from utilities.

Please Anet do something with condi meta(i don’t like it and IMO its quite brainless way to fight, but its topic for diferent post) or give us tools which allow us to play competitively in tPVP.

/sign

I also gave my tPvP Mesmer a break. Currently playing Ele and Ranger.
The thing is that the Mesmer is not completeley useless in tPvP, it’s just the fact that they can’t deal with condis as good as other classes. We can trait for more condi removal, but then we’re missing some other stuff that actually made us strong in PvP. At that point, other classes are simply better (like S/D thief for burst).

What’s left at the moment is a squishy utility class that can’t really handle the current condi overkill.
I see your point Hexxen, but other classes are more useful at the moment, at least in my opinion. Todays Mistleague-Tourny also had only one (?) Mesmer in all teams. I don’t say that there’s no point in playing Mesmer in tPvP, but there are simply better alternatives. And it seems that many PvP’ers currently share this opinion.

The CD reduction for Nullfield in the last patch felt like an easy hotfix that was supposed to help us survive the current meta. I’d prefer some more cleansing on healskills (one condition every heal when traited is a joke compared to other classes) rather than wasting all traits and utilites just for the sake of trying to survive.

On the other side, PU-Torch Mesmer is very entertaining in WvW.

I think Anet realizes mesmers ’ Achilles heel in the condi meta and working on it. It might take a while though. Null Field shorter CD is a start.

Our problem is we have to build specially for it – traits, gear, runes, utilties, and sigils for just ONE build and doing all of that means we are VERY weak in every other way. The Clensing from Shatters trait needs to be adjusted and moved down the tree line.

i think it should:

Remove ALL of 2 conditions per a shatter. The lowest cool down on them is like 14seconds with the 30 into Illusions i think. Move it down to say the lowest tier so that we can take it without having to go into grandmaster.

I mean that would be like 6 conditions removed if you have 3 clones/phantoms out seems fair to me.

keenlam.4753:

I think Anet realizes mesmers ’ Achilles heel in the condi meta and working on it.

How to fix the Mesmers everywhere meta?

Shift meta to condition spam that mesmer doesn’t have tools to handle.

Makes sense.

/sarcasm

It’s just an unfortunate side effect of the absurd decision of leaving monks out of this game. In guild wars 1 you could have other classes to effectively clean of kitten from allies. Warriors weren’t weak even if they had zero hex removal skills.

Shattered conditions is a worthy grandmaster trait. Only the tooldip states the functionality wrong You remove one condition per shattered clone. Thats – even without persona – the most powerful cleanse in this game. Still doing testing about what the cleanseradius is. But hell, 3 conditions cleansed per full shatter? For your entire team? Useless? No! But I think they should merge the two inspiration grandmasters and increase the heal/make it AoE too.

3 conditions every 11.5seconds (at best) is still pretty poor and NOT Grandmaster status. Sure you have the other Shatters as well but you dont want to be bursting them just to get rid of Conditions.

I think it should be something like:

Remove 2 Stacks of Conditions per a Clone Shattered (IP counts as well) Gain a random defensive boon for 10 seconds for each condition stack removed.

The boons that could proc: Aegis, Protection, Regeneration, Retaliation, Stability(?)

If Anet ever decides to move deceptive evasion into inspiration tree then all sorts of new build possibilities will open up. Right now mesmers need 0/20/0/30/30 to run the build I’m sure we’ve all wanted to run but obviously it’s not possible right now.

Also I think that the warrior has a really solid counter build for the fotm condi necro and engi builds so in a way the mesmer is in an even worse spot.

I think the bigger problem is that all of the inspiration minors are phantasm traits while the grandmasters are shatter traits. Now that vengeful images is nerfed, they could at least make it last 5 seconds on all illusions. That way replenishing illusions often would sort of make sense for the inspiration line. This would also not change the phantasm aspect of this trait line (well… not nerf it further).

Vigor and condition removal for allies on shatters. Glamour cooldown on buffed null field. Signet of domination buff. I’m convinced that the devs are trying to make mesmer enablers of glass cannon +50% crit chance glass cannon warriors to counter the condi meta. 20/20/0/30/0 or a 10/0/0/30/30 shatter/phantasms hybrid support build?

It isn’t the shatter mesmer we usually see but like most classes, 1 build rarely stays around the entire games life span.

DE doesn’t need to be moved or changed in any way.

Blimm.5028:

Shattered conditions is a worthy grandmaster trait. Only the tooldip states the functionality wrong You remove one condition per shattered clone. Thats – even without persona – the most powerful cleanse in this game. Still doing testing about what the cleanseradius is. But hell, 3 conditions cleansed per full shatter? For your entire team? Useless? No! But I think they should merge the two inspiration grandmasters and increase the heal/make it AoE too.

The big problem with that trait as well is that it’s simply undesirable for phantasm mesmers. No phantasm mesmer is going to shatter his illusions and their main source of damage, especially right now where all the conditions you cleanse are back in a matter of seconds.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

DE doesn’t need to be moved or changed in any way.

Yeah I wouldn’t say the changes “need” to be made but my wish list is deceptive evasion, shattered conditions and illusionary persona in the same build.

Phantasm mesmer is, as far my knowledge goes, barely viable in tPvP, which is to be the main interest of balancing. +My phantasm builds utilize ither disenchanter or a traited null field, we all have to invest. But not in the same method.

Edit: @Israel If those three traits were allowed to be used in the same build this would destroy build diversity by becoming the only reasonable choice.
In such a build you would barely sacrifice damage compared to a standard shatter mesmer, while gaining the best cleanse in the game.

Blimm.5028:

Phantasm mesmer is, as far my knowledge goes, barely viable in tPvP, which is to be the main interest of balancing. +My phantasm builds utilize ither disenchanter or a traited null field, we all have to invest. But not in the same method.

Edit: @Israel If those three traits were allowed to be used in the same build this would destroy build diversity by becoming the only reasonable choice.
In such a build you would barely sacrifice damage compared to a standard shatter mesmer, while gaining the best cleanse in the game.

Even the Phantom builds are subpar when in TPvP. We arent being taken for our damage or defensive abilities its things like Portal and Veil, Time Warp as well. Other then that we have nexct to nothing that another class cant do better and without being killed in seconds unless running with a bodyguard

@ArmageddonAsh: Do try to actually read the posts you are replying to. He aknowledged the fact that phantasm builds are hardly viable in tpvp, and was simply stating how he handles conditions in them.

With regards to shattered conditions—it is an incredibly powerful trait. 3 conditions isn’t super high, but 3 conditions in an aoe is. You’re going to be removing closer to 6 or 9 conditions every time you do a full shatter if you play correctly with that trait.

Preedit: kitten , i approve what Pyro said xD following is aimed at armageddons post.

I have to disapprove. The reason we cant (or more like couldnt) do anything as good as others were able to is/was that we, unlike others, had only one utility slot available to improve damage/survivability.
If a mesmer uses all his utility slots to DPS/bunker or whatever he is definitely able to compete.
Elementalist for instance bursts harder then a shatter mesmer, but one random dodge and his burst is done for. Also his burst is easier to identify and avoid and he has less ways of disengaging AND his burst doesn´t ripp all boons from enemies around him AND his burst isn´t 100% AoE.
I will put up a build this evening or tomorrow. Then you may or may not see that mesmer is a viable choice. Just build a little more for yourself instead of sacrificing all your build for team utility. No other profession was able or required to do so. Now mesmer needs those slots for himself. Like anybody else. Try playing a burst ele or a necromancer with only one utility skill.
Then play them with all three.
Repeat with mesmer.

Edit: Messed up maths and plants.

Pyroatheist.9031:

@ArmageddonAsh: Do try to actually read the posts you are replying to. He aknowledged the fact that phantasm builds are hardly viable in tpvp, and was simply stating how he handles conditions in them.

With regards to shattered conditions—it is an incredibly powerful trait. 3 conditions isn’t super high, but 3 conditions in an aoe is. You’re going to be removing closer to 6 or 9 conditions every time you do a full shatter if you play correctly with that trait.

Yeah maybe it was needed but even our “best” TPvP build SUCKS.

Shattered Conditions would be decent IF it wasnt in such a rubbish tree and still isnt worth 30point trait spend. While it is decent for AoE its still not good enough for a 30point trait. I would have though it wont happen liked to see it replace the conditions with the boons and maybe move it to a USEFUL tree line, you are wasting to many good traits for an average trait (should be 20Trait points imo)

Sorry for postspam, but i have to clean up that mess of Armageddons.

Inspiration is not a junk tree. Its less optimal then illusions but still viable.
Speccing a shatter mesmer into it will turn him into a more supportive player, sacrificing admittedly a lot of damage, but giving his team permanent vigor, basically immunity to conditions (since I´m playing it ive seen 50% of the necros I´m up against rage-quitting) and you will keep the ability to rend boons. More egoism on your skill-bar, more communism on your trait set.

Blimm.5028:

Preedit: kitten , i approve what Pyro said xD following is aimed at armageddons post.

I have to disapprove. The reason we cant (or more like couldnt) do anything as good as others were able to is/was that we, unlike others, had only one utility slot available to improve damage/survivability.
If a mesmer uses all his utility slots to DPS/bunker or whatever he is definitely able to compete.

what offensive Utilities do we have? (minus CC) – Mantra Of Pain, Maybe Mirror Images but thats more for Shattering or defense as Clones do VERY little damage – decent with Staff though Feedback again i think isnt offensive its more supportive. I guess Sig of Dom counts for its Passive. Everything else is Support/defense

Blimm.5028:

Elementalist for instance bursts harder then a shatter mesmer, but one random dodge and his burst is done for. Also his burst is easier to identify and avoid and he has less ways of disengaging AND his burst doesn´t ripp all boons from enemies around him AND his burst isn´t 100% AoE.

Ele can swap atunement and they have defensive, offensive or Supportive based skills. So if one kind of burst fails they have other options – i Play Ele and when my Air burst is either finished or fails i swap to Earth go a bit defensive and for a bit and then into Fire or back into Air.

They also have offensive Elites, oh how i would swap Moa or Time Warp for the a Mesmer Variant of Tornado (turn us into a kick kitten Phantom ala Lich Form which also looks sick!) or variant of Elemental (Summon a kick kitten Phantom)

Blimm.5028:

I will put up a build this evening or tomorrow. Then you may or may not see that mesmer is a viable choice. Just build a little more for yourself instead of sacrificing all your build for team utility. No other profession was able or required to do so. Now mesmer needs those slots for himself. Like anybody else. Try playing a burst ele or a necromancer with only one utility skill.
Then play them with all three.
Repeat with mesmer.
Edit: Messed up maths and plants.

Depends on your definition of “Viable” is, damage wise we are subpar can eaisly be burst down by Conditions unless we build fully against it (anything less makes it pointless) and we MIGHT survive the inital burst only to be killed as soon as they are reapplied.

I have BOTH an Ele and Necro. I find Mesmer more fun, unfortunately Anet seems fixated on making us the Utility class that others very little other then that utility. Surely changing/replacing some of the Signets or Mantras to be a bit more offensive would help.

Be open minded. What we had is useless, what we need now is adaption.
I didn´t mean offensive utilities but utilities which support you, offensive or defensive doesn´t matter.

Edit: I main ele together with mesmer. If you go real burst (oneshot style stuff) your support is subpar. And real airburst starts out from earth, hurl → earthquake → lighntingflash → airatunement → lightningstrike → RTL.
Eles die faster then mesmers if not matched against condi specs, and even there a propperly specced mesmer is atleast comparable. Shatter mesmer full combo can be a close oneshot and is mostly AoE. Ele is single target nuke+phoenix and ring of fire.

Blimm.5028:

Sorry for postspam, but i have to clean up that mess of Armageddons.

Inspiration is not a junk tree. Its less optimal then illusions but still viable.
Speccing a shatter mesmer into it will turn him into a more supportive player, sacrificing admittedly a lot of damage, but giving his team permanent vigor, basically immunity to conditions (since I´m playing it ive seen 50% of the necros I´m up against rage-quitting) and you will keep the ability to rend boons. More egoism on your skill-bar, more communism on your trait set.

As i have stated somewhere else – SOME of the traits are decent but are NOT worth losing traits elsewhere.

“sacrificing admittedly a lot of damage” Is kind of important we arent taken in TPvP much as it is, while having a decent support Shatter build would be nice, what would you do if you were 1 Vs 1? How much damage lose are you talking here?

Personally i find DE and BI to be far more important and the other traits (BT and DD) as well as the minor traits are pretty solid choices as well. Vengeful Images is pretty muh for a shatter build Regen is nice though 15% extra Phantom damage is 50/50 good in times where you cant/dont want to shatter and rather weak when you do want to shatter.

Traits wise Medic Feedback, Malicious Sorcery Persisting Images Restorative Mantras are all pretty pointless for Shatter builds, some others are decent but still i dont think i could handle losing DE or or BI in my builds for it.

Curious to see this build though

Lets just stop this here, this is turning into a personal fight. I will be glad to read your critique on my build selection once I have managed to put it up.

Impressions and opinions uttered here by us both are mostly subjective and not supported by evidence.

Blimm.5028:

Lets just stop this here, this is turning into a personal fight. I will be glad to read your critique on my build selection once I have managed to put it up.

Impressions and opinions uttered here by us both are mostly subjective and not supported by evidence.

I will be very interested in seeing it and curious as to what runes, sigils and such it will have as well.

Actually, mesmer is still viable tpvp. Only his position has shifted and running around with one effective soloplay utility is no longer viable (imagine necros only needed one utility slot to be as strong as they are… HOLY CRAP)
@ Armageddon here you can find my support shatter build, amongst other of my mindgames Buildcompilation

Blimm.5028:

Edit: @Israel If those three traits were allowed to be used in the same build this would destroy build diversity by becoming the only reasonable choice.
In such a build you would barely sacrifice damage compared to a standard shatter mesmer, while gaining the best cleanse in the game.

Yeah probably. But it would be fun to play mesmer again.

Israel, to me it is fun to play mesmer still, i don´t need to be op to have fun <3
Necros were a pain in the kitten . Now i can counter them.

Blimm.5028:

Israel, to me it is fun to play mesmer still, i don´t need to be op to have fun <3

Well I do.

Israel.7056:

Blimm.5028:

Israel, to me it is fun to play mesmer still, i don´t need to be op to have fun <3

Well I do.

Then roll a necro <3

Blimm.5028:

Then roll a necro <3

I did weeks ago.

Israel.7056:

Blimm.5028:

Then roll a necro <3

I did weeks ago.

Then have fun with the bad guys, I like pink, and pink are my glasses.
Just because necro is uberop it doesn´t mean mesmer needs to be even more op.
It means necro needs nerfing, which arenanet for the 1st time in history seems to be doing carefully.

I’m not talking about what I think needs to happen. That’s not up to me. I’m talking about what I hope will happen. Although I’m actually having a lot of fun with cc warrior right now it does really well against all these glassy necros and engi and rangers.

Blimm.5028:

Israel, to me it is fun to play mesmer still, i don´t need to be op to have fun <3
Necros were a pain in the kitten . Now i can counter them.

Thats why i have stopped playing my necro, i liked it when it was a CHALLENGE now its meh. Mesmer is alot more fun as well.

It didn’t kill anything. People are just slow to evolve from one weapon set to another or build wise. They need some1 known in the community to post 150 youtube videos how to play against X class before these same people come back on their mez and completely forget about nec condi builds even tho they were they reason “mez meta killed”. So to those who seriously think necros “killed” mes meta, just wait for those videos from so called ‘experienced’ players how to play your class against a necro because you can’t think for yourself.

Lol, I hope ppl pick up my support shatter build stuff from my build compilation and get inspired. Its all far from perfect, but you can easily be the necros nightmare (see what i did there? ;D)

shimmerless.4560:

Hexxen.7216:

Well I simply don’t agree with you. We have a substantial amount of CD removal it is just that many people feel that other abilities are more important to take.

I run with torch and the domination trait for it and have pretty much no issue with conditions at all. Honestly this isn’t a L2P situation it is simply that you gota sacrifice a bit to get the condition removal but it can be done and you can see be very useful to your team.

problem with torch is that you give up boon rip meaning it takes too long to kill or force a good guardian off point

Not if you have Arcane Thievery and Null Field which I run based on what I see on the other team. Also, it is a team fight you should be able to rely on your team mates for some things. That being said I have started running a pure utility/power build since that is what Mesmer has been pigeon hold into doing really.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNAW7cl0zqpHVTnGZ9IhJFEH5new8kPdSKgNrB-TwAA1CtIMSZkzIjRSjsGNEZJyRknIA

The off-hand of the Scepter can be really anything but torch for this build as condition damage is 0 the torch is meaningless. I like love iSwordsman is all. You can take portal and/or feedback based on the other team. You can win some fights 1v1 with this but it isn’t meant for that. I usually run with a pretty coordinated team when I play this build and I pretty much go where I am needed. I don’t have issues with conditions on at all and neither do my allies. This build does make clones fast enough to not need DE even though it is a heavy shatter based support.

keenlam.4753:

I think Anet realizes mesmers ’ Achilles heel in the condi meta and working on it. It might take a while though. Null Field shorter CD is a start.

yep how about more cleansing skills and yeah confusion buff is always welcome… anet created the necro meta in wvw and all i see right now is red marks that instakill u. i mean confusion u could at least avaiod by backing off once hit with it and the stacks dissapear quickly… 20 marks however stay there for quite long. fear u all the time, u bleed , poison and pretty much every condition appart from confusion insta kills u. 5 to 10 necros=insta kill for mesmers with our weak cleansers.

confusion wasnt even half as bad as the current necro meta…oh well anet hates mesmers…

next patch= necro condition duration increased, adding torment to other marks and decrasing cd of marks

mesmer: fixing butterfly effects on shatter,fixing clone appearance, reducing cripple effect on shatter to 0.2 sec, reducing confusion dmg by another 15 percent, adding cleansers that have a 50 sec cd and adding more options for random conditions that u cannot really control instead of having a viable wvw condition would make us soooooo op.

I’m surprised more people aren’t using iDisenchanter. It cleanses 2 conditions every 4 seconds or so from multiple allies, is on a 16/20s CD and it strips boons. Even if you get only a single shot it’s still comparable to Null Field.

If your argument is that a tPvP Mesmer doesn’t have utility slots to spare with IoL and Portal and what-not, well. You’re sacrificing your own combat capability for group utility so I fail to see the problem.

Problem is that if i want to participate in tPvP i must take portal and IoL without them almost any other class seems better. I would prefer to take another necro o HGH engi for even higher condi pressure than mesmer without group utilities. What is more, now even with utilities mesmer is meh, how many top tpvp teams play with mes?