Guild Wars 2

With the condition heavy meta, I’d love to see our condition removal capabilities improved. I have the following suggestions, and I’m sure the community can add others:

1. NULL field removes all conditions every pulse (instead of just one).
2. Mender’s Purity trait removes three conditions on heal (instead of one).
3. Mantra of Resolve removes three conditions (instead of two).
4. Cleansing Conflagration removes two conditions on torch skill (instead of one).
5. Reduce Arcane Thievery c/d to 40s (instead of 45)

Right now the amount of condition spam is excessive. If it doesn’t change, we need more effective tools to deal with it. I’m not making class comparisons, just stating that our current condition removal capabilities are inadequate.

Shattered Conditions is probably fine as it is because it’s team condition removal and can be triggered frequently in a shatter build. I haven’t used it yet, but for solo it won’t be adequate if you only get one condition removed per F-key press (rather that one condition removed per illusion that actually shatters).

juno.1840:

With the condition heavy meta, I’d love to see our condition removal capabilities improved. I have the following suggestions, and I’m sure the community can add others:

1. NULL field removes all conditions every pulse (instead of just one).
2. Mender’s Purity trait removes three conditions on heal (instead of one).
3. Mantra of Resolve removes three conditions (instead of two).
4. Cleansing Conflagration removes two conditions on torch skill (instead of one).
5. Reduce Arcane Thievery c/d to 40s (instead of 45)

Right now the amount of condition spam is excessive. If it doesn’t change, we need more effective tools to deal with it. I’m not making class comparisons, just stating that our current condition removal capabilities are inadequate.

Shattered Conditions is probably fine as it is because it’s team condition removal and can be triggered frequently in a shatter build. I haven’t used it yet, but for solo it won’t be adequate if you only get one condition removed per F-key press (rather that one condition removed per illusion that actually shatters).

Mesmer’s weaknesses are mass condi removal and speed … and this is intentional. In return, we have some of the most and best damage avoidance skills. This is a fair trade.

While I of course would love your proposed changes, they each make it too easy to remove conditions. Instead, recognize that we have the tools to avoid and/or deal with conditions depending on the situations we’re facing.

Zerging: take null field. It’s not like we’re wading into the thick of melee anyway, and it’s great help to others.

Roaming: Arcane thievery packs a great punch, and Mantra of Resolve if you see a Necro or Engi approaching

Personally: I run Mantra of Recovery with Mender’s purity. 2 condi removals every 10 seconds is generally sufficient, especially if you have regen up.

Long story short: avoiding getting his is the best way to deal with conditions, and in this matter, we are second to none. Invis, blink, clones, etc. Think of each as damage avoidance, and you realize that we actually do have the ability to avoid getting hit with condis in the first place.

I honestly feel this isn’t necessary. You have listed 6 different ways mesmers can clear conditions. That’s more than enough. The issue is people don’t want to give up traits and utilities for these condition clears. If anything, that’s what needs to be worked on.

I really hope anet doesn’t change skills and utilities to match the present meta because, more often than not, they dish out nerfs and they never revisit these skills to improve them once the meta has moved on. That’s what happened to Portal and why it has a longer cooldown than even some elite skills.

Sorry but using that logic implies that nobody needs condition removal (or even armor for that matter) because they can survive by “not getting hit”. Yeah this is sort of silly, but so is expecting to not get hit — one knock-down and that plan goes to hell.

Yes I listed six ways that we can remove conditions, but do you expect mesmers to take all six? I guess that’s possible — just not sure it’s viable.

I agree we are probably second to only thieves on not getting hit — but like thieves it’s a gimmick. In our case it’s due to finding the “real mesmer” among the clones.

However a simple CTRL-T and you are easily hit from that point forward (unless you are packing at least one stealth skill and it’s not on c/d). After playing a mesmer, we are pretty easy to find. I notice that other players are finding us much more frequently than six months ago.

Ultimately we will be hit and will take conditions. It’s easy to receive more conditions than NULL field can purge over it’s entire duration — that’s saying something.

As long as the cool-down on Null field was raised to 75-100 second cool-down.

You misunderstood me. You listed 6 ways of getting condition removal. You can choose any or all of those 6. Get 3 if you feel 3 is necessary or just go with 1 if you’re not that concerned. Yes, it’s a tough choice between condition removal and other utilities/traits but tough choices is a hallmark of great game design. If you want to be competitive, you have to make that tough choice.

In my experience, the only times I get overwhelmed by conditions are a) when I get trampled by a zerg or larger group, or b) ambushed by a necro or engi. In the first scenario, I’m likely dead anyway. In the second, it was my own fault for not seeing them and/or having better condi removal slotted. Or I was just outplayed.

Mesmers are meant to be played knowing that our condition removal is weak. We are not meant to tank. Instead, we can jump into the fray, cause a lot of damage, and then jump out and heal/cleanse. Or we can fight from the edge of a zerg or back of a small group. Or we can roam and use the terrain to our advantage to gain enough time to remove condis. Or we can run melandru/lemongrass and end the discussion entirely.

@ Crossplay: Sorry, my original response was actually a munged up response to both your post and Bunda. I have issue with any strategy that’s based solely on “not getting hit” (which was what Bunda was selling). Again, you could play naked if that strat was viable.

Agreed you could take all six. I don’t see this as a realistic option. I think there six means available so you can have build diversity — not as a designed path for viable condition removal builds. As you said, “If you want to be competitive, you have to make that tough choice”. I’m not sure taking all six is even remotely “competitive”, condition meta or not.

@Bunda: I don’t think mesmers are meant to be played “knowing our condition removal is weak”. You can’t dodge off a condition once you have it. Jumping out of the fray to heal/cleanse works if you actually have the tools to adequately do that. My point is our tools are not quite good enough.

These were just some ideas — so far there have been zero posts supporting anything I said. I guess I’m alone in my opinion in this area.

@juno, I think some very small tweaks could be made, such as the arcane thievery suggestion or maybe shaving off a couple seconds from the mantra of resolve CD. I also like another idea I’ve seen to allow mender’s purity to proc off mantra charges if restorative mantras is traited (though I can see an argument this might be OP). Torch is actually a very nice cleansing utility, not only with the skills but also the iMage bounce. Everything else you suggested would be too OP in my opinion.

Anet has made it clear their feeling on our abilities to cleanse, if you haven’t seen:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/SOTG-9-6-2013-Mesmers/first#post2806742

They make compelling points and I agree with them for the most part. Minor tweaks aside (which I think would make all the difference), I think we’re going to be stuck where we’re at for some time.

The condition rebalance (ie nerf) mainly for necros is coming october 6th! So we should be fine when that patch hits up. I hope they just nerf necros, since I think conditions in general on engi/mesmer/war/thief is fine right now.

ok so yeah we got removal, but here are the issues:

-mantras get interrupted quite often,u cant dodge or use anything while casting it otherwise u interrupt it yourself. this is an issue in wvw and spvp where interrupts are part of the current warrior meta.

-nullfield(i run this) is great as it removes conditions every pulse for alla allies standing in it. but the cooldown is pretty long and with the conditionmeta u will get those conditions u removed right back on

-arcane thievery misses most of the time. i like the idea of it and it sounds great, but using it in a heated fight is misses wayy too often.

-torchremoval is pretty reliable in spvp, but it is bound to a weapon that not everyone uses. the phantasm is beyond ridiculous and i only use it for the extra stealth. but all this requires a certain build, which also not everyone runs.

-menders purity again requires a certain traitline to be used and it does require again to give up another trait. most of the mesmer builds out there are very very specific about what trait u choose. if u give up 1 of them for this trait, it affects the entire build. i cant use it atm as all my wvw builds require other traits.

that being said. i tried a build in spvp where i tried to use 3 of those cleansing tools and traits….i survived 3-5 seconds longer, but had a terrible dps and the torch phantasm was the worst! XD
but i would recommend every mesmer to always have 1 utility reserved for condition removal. nullfield or arcane thievery. and btw there is one that gets forgotten very often: Phantasmal Disenchanter(not really vible yet in wvw). i use this one and idefender sometimes in spvp and find myself surviving a little better.

Be using iDisenchanter with IE(Illusionary Elasticity) and it has been awesome actually. It works quite well and reliably removes at least 1 condition and more often than not 2 conditions thanks to IE.

Deathcon.5903:

Be using iDisenchanter with IE(Illusionary Elasticity) and it has been awesome actually. It works quite well and reliably removes at least 1 condition and more often than not 2 conditions thanks to IE.

yep people forget about this one and i personally like it. it could use a little tweak in terms of casttime though. the cooldown is pretty good though. better than nullfield and arcane thievery.

you do know that for warrior to stay in this meta they need 20 point for a trait in defense line, 2 utilities and a set of runes for condition cleansing.

Lighter.5631:

you do know that for warrior to stay in this meta they need 20 point for a trait in defense line, 2 utilities and a set of runes for condition cleansing.

Yes very true, mesmer yes need some tweaks, but aren’t suffering the most in this meta. We have skills that will allow us to survive, the rest is on the player.

Reduce Null field CD slightly and/or have it strip all conditions on each pulse.
Reduce Arcane Thievery CD slightly and remove the cast time.

Actually, we should have a remove condition on dodge (10 sec cd) minor trait.

Xavi.6591:

Actually, we should have a remove condition on dodge (10 sec cd) minor trait.

They would NEVER do that since we can generate clones on dodge and can have access to perma-vigor. This will never ever happen

I started using the Shattered Conditions trait along with Mender’s Purity. That’s a pretty power combination of condition removal leaving utility slots for other skills.

I completely agree with op. Don’t think any of those buffs would be op, only fair to put us on par with most other classes when it comes to cond removal. It’s not always easy to avoid conditions, say we get focus cc’ed and a cond build bursts us in the 2-3 seconds we’re out, there’s not much we can do except pop Mass Invi with Runes of Lyssa.

I wouldn’t mind either if any of our existing cond removals were to stay as they are but prioritize burns, bleeds and posion. This would prob be a bigger buff than what op has thought of.

juno.1840:

1. NULL field removes all conditions every pulse (instead of just one).
2. Mender’s Purity trait removes three conditions on heal (instead of one).
3. Mantra of Resolve removes three conditions (instead of two).
4. Cleansing Conflagration removes two conditions on torch skill (instead of one).
5. Reduce Arcane Thievery c/d to 40s (instead of 45)

1. Disagree. Maybe two per pulse. But certainly not all.
2. Disagree. Would be way too powerful with the healing mantra. Maybe two. Use a different heal instead of Ether Feast if you want it to be more powerful.
3. Agree. I prefer the recently announced changes, though. You could also just go for Harmonious Mantras.
4. Disagree. You got 2 skills to remove conditions plus the phantasm bounce.
5. Agree on this one.

Although, I do agree that Mesmer do not have the best condition removal and there might have to be some slight adjustments I feel that Crossplay nailed it. Most people are just not willing to sacrifice anything for condition removal. But it is about trade-offs. You can’t expect to go full damage with insane mobility and still be able to cleanse all the conditions which are thrown at you.

Fact is, Mesmers do have several options for condition removal. They are very different so there should be a suitable skill or trait for every playstyle. If one skill or one trait is not enough, you might just have to make sacrifices and go for more or accept that you won’t be able to kill condition heavy builds or classes.

Snappppy.8137:

I completely agree with op. Don’t think any of those buffs would be op, only fair to put us on par with most other classes when it comes to cond removal. It’s not always easy to avoid conditions, say we get focus cc’ed and a cond build bursts us in the 2-3 seconds we’re out, there’s not much we can do except pop Mass Invi with Runes of Lyssa.

I wouldn’t mind either if any of our existing cond removals were to stay as they are but prioritize burns, bleeds and posion. This would prob be a bigger buff than what op has thought of.

Prioritizing certain conditions is quite tricky. I think it really depends on your build which condition will hurt you the most. I personally really hate cripple.

Being focussed CCed is lethal for almost everyone. No Mesmer only problem.
I wonder what happened if you became immune to stuns for the duration of the last stun you received. It certainly would prevent exessive chain stunning.

I find getting crippled or immobilized gets me killed far more often than bleed/burn/poison. (not being able to get out of range)

Outside of that and focus fire, using Null Field, stealth, and clone “chaff” handles most of my condition issues.

You have to make choices. And even then, running condition removal should not be a panacea, because you get no panacea against regular damage either.

Looks like I got a bit of love with the proposed December 10th changes:

Inspiration IV – Mender’s Purity. Now removes 2 conditions.
Inspiration XI – Shattered Conditions. Increased radius from 240 to 600.

Changes described here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Dec-10th-Balance-Preview