Condition damage weapons
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i’m guessing it’s related to pve looking at your link in the other post
sword in a condition mesmer build is as bad as a staff in a power mesmer build :-)
sword doesn’t have any damaging conditions
condi mesmers can use phantasms duelist to be exact.. your link in the other post.. pistol is perfect.. but sword is pretty useless in a condition build
(edited by Telekinesis.8312)
Sword can be used in Condition builds the same way Staff can be used in Power builds: as a defensive weapon. In fact it’s probably easier for Condition builds to do this because Condition pressure comes mostly from Shatters, so your weapon choice isn’t as relevant.
and where do the clones come from for shatters? :-P
the whole point of condition pressure from shatters is from scepter clones and regarding defensive weapon.. rather stick to a block that inflicts 6 stacks of torment over a 2 second invul that deals less dmg in condition spec not to mention confusing images and autoattack inflicting torment.. sword really has no place for condition mesmer in pve.
Sword can be used in Condition builds the same way Staff can be used in Power builds: as a defensive weapon. In fact it’s probably easier for Condition builds to do this because Condition pressure comes mostly from Shatters, so your weapon choice isn’t as relevant.
This.
In pvp you can easily use sword as a defensive/mobility weapon in a condition build given most of your condition application will be through shatters. Taking either Scepter or Staff in the other set allows for more sustained pressure through the illusions (and Sharper Images if you take that).
and where do the clones come from for shatters? :-P
the whole point of condition pressure from shatters is from scepter clones and regarding defensive weapon.. rather stick to a block that inflicts 6 stacks of torment over a 2 second invul that deals less dmg in condition spec not to mention confusing images and autoattack inflicting torment.. sword really has no place for condition mesmer in pve.
And this in pve – I also agree that Scepter + Staff is much better for condition builds in pve given you want higher sustained application.
So it totally depends:
- pve use native condition weapons because you need sustained high condition application and pressure. You don’t have to worry about avoiding that Rapid Fire, Backstab or Mirror Blade + F1 combo where Blurred Frenzy is a godsend.
- pvp/wvw you can use sword defensively because burst condition application through shatters plus sustained application through your second weapon set is enough to be successful vs the relatively small health bars of players.
It comes down to the fact that pve mobs are bullet/damage sponges whereas enemy players can be burst down much faster.
(edited by Curunen.8729)
Thank you. I’ll make a scepter then.
Sword and pistol was my favourite weapon combination ever since I first began playing GW2, but scepters can work too.
Sword mainhand is better than scepter mainhand for condi damage lol. Scepter clones do no damage (whereas sword clones stack vuln and have a faster attack rate for more bleeds) and your scepter auto isn’t going to be boosted by Alacrity, which you will have more of than quickness. And Confusion in general isn’t very good for condition damage output.
Sword mainhand is better than scepter mainhand for condi damage lol. Scepter clones do no damage (whereas sword clones stack vuln and have a faster attack rate for more bleeds)
and what does vulnerability help you with if you cant shatter or apply damaging conditions?
and your scepter auto isn’t going to be boosted by Alacrity, which you will have more of than quickness
neither is any auto attack boosted by alacrity.. quickness is achieved with seize the moment when you shatter.. so when you shatter.. the more clones you generate with scep auto attack.. the more shatters. you have more quickness than alacrity in a condition spec
And Confusion in general isn’t very good for condition damage output.
torment will be around the same stacks of confusion with stm or more
basically.. your post didn’t have a single mention of a condition.. it’s all about higher auto attack and vulnerability.. which is nt very useful cause the amount of bleeds you stack isn’t all too great compared to the amount of conditions you gain with a scepter even if you’re on a phantasm condition build with duelists around
With a Chrono build you don’t need many Clones at all. Between Persistence of Memory and Chronophantasma you can Shatter Phantasms all day long. Toss in Illusionary Reversion if you still feel you need more, or even Deceptive Evasion if you want overkill.
Sceptre’s Clone generation is nice but not essential. It’s a bonus, not something you rely on: it’s too slow at generating Clones by itself, and Sceptre lacks an on-demand Clone generator like other weapons do (which is actually pretty annoying when trying to set up your first attack).
I am in no way saying Sword is better than Sceptre but a Sword in a Condi Mes build is in no way bad. And with the increased difficulty in HoT there is a real need for defensive options, and Illusionary Counter really isn’t comparable to Blurred Frenzy when it comes to defence.
(edited by Embolism.8106)
and your scepter auto isn’t going to be boosted by Alacrity.
Uhhh…name a weapon who’s autos are affected by alacrity?
and your scepter auto isn’t going to be boosted by Alacrity.
Uhhh…name a weapon who’s autos are affected by alacrity?
I think he’s just pointing out that the only skill that generates a clone on the scepter doesn’t benefit from alacrity, whereas sword 3 does.
With a Chrono build you don’t need many Clones at all. Between Persistence of Memory and Chronophantasma you can Shatter Phantasms all day long. Toss in Illusionary Reversion if you still feel you need more, or even Deceptive Evasion if you want overkill.
Sceptre’s Clone generation is nice but not essential. It’s a bonus, not something you rely on: it’s too slow at generating Clones by itself, and Sceptre lacks an on-demand Clone generator like other weapons do (which is actually pretty annoying when trying to set up your first attack).
I am in no way saying Sword is better than Sceptre but a Sword in a Condi Mes build is in no way bad. And with the increased difficulty in HoT there is a real need for defensive options, and Illusionary Counter really isn’t comparable to Blurred Frenzy when it comes to defence.
not counting continuum split duration.. and going ahead with after the continuum split.. with a best case scenario of starting in a staff with a sword/pistol swap.
fighting a champion in a staff and sword/pistol as condition mesmer — you tend to start with retreat, warlock and swap to sword/p and duelist, shatter after the duelist attacks.. will net you in lock/duelist – shatter again.. lets say.. your duelist cd is done and 1 dodge and leap will net you in another shatter.. downtime starts around here.. low condition pressure.. low alacrity.. you end up having low alacrity/quickness compared to a scepter/pistol shatter build.
chronophantasma phantasms are dazed for 1.5 sec and a 0.75-1 second attack animation after the 1.5 seconds.. which gets u to 2.25-.2.5 seconds before you can shatter worthily.
(edited by Telekinesis.8312)
and your scepter auto isn’t going to be boosted by Alacrity.
Uhhh…name a weapon who’s autos are affected by alacrity?
I think he’s just pointing out that the only skill that generates a clone on the scepter doesn’t benefit from alacrity, whereas sword 3 does.
That’s exactly what I meant. You will likely get more clones in practice from sword than from scepter, assuming you even ever need either past your initial burst.
and your scepter auto isn’t going to be boosted by Alacrity.
Uhhh…name a weapon who’s autos are affected by alacrity?
I think he’s just pointing out that the only skill that generates a clone on the scepter doesn’t benefit from alacrity, whereas sword 3 does.
That’s exactly what I meant. You will likely get more clones in practice from sword than from scepter, assuming you even ever need either past your initial burst.
you wont get more clones in sword than scepter.. ever.. it’s impossible in any practice
fighting a champion in a staff and sword/pistol as condition mesmer — you tend to start with retreat, warlock and swap to sword/p and duelist, shatter after the duelist attacks.. will net you in lock/duelist + leap – shatter again.. lets say.. your duelist cd is done and 2 dodges will net you in another shatter.. downtime starts around here.. low condition pressure.. low alacrity.. you end up having low alacrity/quickness compared to a scepter/pistol shatter build.
What down time…? Then you switch back to Staff and cast Phase Retreat and iWarlock again and the fun continues.
I also prefer Shield because 1. it’s a great defensive weapon 2. illusion generation with EoM/DV + PoM + CP is insane.
For reference, in PvP I run Staff and Sword/Shield with PoM, CP and use iDisenchanter as a utility. I don’t use DE or IR. Shatter CD is far more often the limiting factor than illusion generation.
(edited by Embolism.8106)
your blocked in staff for 6-7 seconds which isn’t a great thing cause damage potential in staff is very limited untill you end up having 3 clones and dont shatter.
???
Are you saying you camp Sceptre-Pistol throughout the rest of the fight? Sceptre’s got burst conditions but once those skills are used its condition pressure is worse than Staff. You may as well swap weapons while Confusing Images and Counter recharge. Even with Malicious Sorcery Confusing Images is on a 9s CD anyway, about the same as weapon swap.
yep, you camp in scep/pistol untill you get chaos storm again.. there’s no point in going back to staff without chaos storm. scepter isn’t a burst condition weapon :P illusionary counter’s got a very low cd with alacrity u keep getting through shatters.. use it to block everytime it’s available.. and your auto attack with quickness from shatters is pretty awesome.. applies torment and keeps spawning illusions. you can easily maintain 15+ torment and confusion in scep if not more.
(edited by Telekinesis.8312)
Ehhhhh. Sceptre auto is weaker than Staff auto, even more so with Clones as Sceptre Clones don’t get the longer duration second hit. I have no idea why you’d do that.
And all’s said and done autoattacks contribute very little to your condition pressure in a Condi Shatter.
Ehhhhh. Sceptre auto is weaker than Staff auto, even more so with Clones as Sceptre Clones don’t get the longer duration second hit. I have no idea why you’d do that.
And all’s said and done autoattacks contribute very little to your condition pressure in a Condi Shatter.
sceptre auto attack hits harder than a staff auto and as far as conditions are concerned.. bounces do apply more but you attack slower, i keep mentioning quickness with shatters in sceptre.. your underestimating the damage you deal and the speed of clone generation :-) try it.. i can make a video if i get to be at home and have time to spare.
and your scepter auto isn’t going to be boosted by Alacrity.
Uhhh…name a weapon who’s autos are affected by alacrity?
I think he’s just pointing out that the only skill that generates a clone on the scepter doesn’t benefit from alacrity, whereas sword 3 does.
That’s exactly what I meant. You will likely get more clones in practice from sword than from scepter, assuming you even ever need either past your initial burst.
you wont get more clones in sword than scepter.. ever.. it’s impossible in any practice
Um.
Offhand Duelist
GS #2
GS #4
Rolls
Chronophantasma
Reversion
Only after all of those are expended would you even need to consider channeling scepter auto for 3 seconds to get more clones. And during that time you could have already summoned 2-3 sword clones using Sword #3.
The fact of the matter is that there simply aren’t that many occasions where you would even want to channel a skill for 3 seconds to get a clone when you could just weapon swap or roll instead.
As far as conditions are concerned Staff conditions are much stronger than Sceptre conditions. I mean really, look at the raw numbers:
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Winds of Chaos: 1/3 chance 692 Bleeding, 1/3 chance 298 Burning, 1/3 chance Vulnerability. Average condition damage: 330.
DPS: 2 * 330 / 0.75 = 880
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Ether Bolt: 386 Bolt, 515 Blast.
DPS: ( 386 + 515 ) / 1.75 = 515
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The above is with Runes of Tormenting, so it’s already biased towards Sceptre.
If you’re using Sinister (I assume you are) then you can make an argument about Sceptre direct damage and condition damage vs Staff’s (although I believe Staff still wins in this department).
However the above doesn’t take into account Ether Bolt’s aftercast if you’re not in melee range, or the fact that Sceptre Clones only use Ether Bolt and never the more powerful Ether Blast, or that Torment does less damage if your target isn’t moving (which clashes with trying to use it in melee range), or Staff’s Might, Fury and Vulnerability.
I don’t doubt the speed of Clone generation, but as I’ve shown you don’t need the Sceptre for Clone generation and if relying on Sceptre means camping it then, as the math above shows, you aren’t doing your DPS any favours.
As for Quickness, that applies to both Staff and Sceptre if you’re using StM, so not really relevant when talking about auto DPS.
(edited by Embolism.8106)
Um.
Offhand Duelist
GS #2
GS #4
Rolls
Chronophantasma
Reversion
you’re using a gs? in a condition build?
Only after all of those are expended would you even need to consider channeling scepter auto for 3 seconds to get more clones. And during that time you could have already summoned 2-3 sword clones using Sword #3.
you summon an illusion in 1.5 seconds with quickness from shatters.. that’s 3 seconds for 2 clones is what you need for another shatter, even if you count it at 2 seconds per clone, that’s 4 seconds for 2 clones… also you seem to forget illusionary counter.. there’s just no way you can summon 2-3 sword clones in that time.
The fact of the matter is that there simply aren’t that many occasions where you would even want to channel a skill for 3 seconds to get a clone when you could just weapon swap or roll instead.
read above.. seize the moment over chronophantasma as i’v been debating with.
As far as conditions are concerned Staff conditions are much stronger than Sceptre conditions. I mean really, look at the raw numbers:
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Winds of Chaos: 1/3 chance 692 Bleeding, 1/3 chance 298 Burning, 1/3 chance Vulnerability. Average condition damage: 330.
DPS: 2 * 364 / 0.75 = 880
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Ether Bolt: 287 Bolt, 430 Blast.
DPS: ( 287 + 430 ) / 1.75 = 410
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The above is without Runes of Tormenting. With it Ether Bolt becomes:
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Ether Bolt: 386 Bolt, 515 Blast
DPS: ( 386 + 515 ) / 1.75 = 515
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If you’re using Sinister (I assume you are) then you can make an argument about Sceptre direct damage and condition damage vs Staff’s (although I believe Staff still wins in this department).
However the above still doesn’t take into account Ether Bolt’s horrendous aftercast if you’re not in melee range, or the fact that Sceptre Clones only use Ether Bolt and never the more powerful Ether Blast, or Staff’s Might and Vulnerability stacking, or the fact that Torment does less damage if your target isn’t moving.
I don’t doubt the speed of Clone generation, but as I’ve showed you don’t need the Sceptre for Clone generation and if relying on Sceptre for this means camping it then, as the math above shows, you aren’t doing your DPS any favours.
As for Quickness, that applies to both Staff and Sceptre if you’re using it, so not really relevant talking about DPS.
I am on runes of tormenting.. it’s not biased towards sceptre alone but shatters as well.
what are the calculation variants? auto attack damage should be included as well.. whats the division with 1.75? and you will be in meelee range using illusionary counter as well off cd.
the math above shows only condition damage that’s output from both weapons without regarding illusionary counter 6 torment and physical damage from the auto attacks.
and as far as quickness is concerned.. how does it apply to staff and scepter when you’re running chronophantasma with sword/pistol?
and lets say we’r talking about the build with stm, how are you going to keep shattering after you switch to staff? after retreat and lock, you need a dodge for the next shatter.. and more dodges for the next one.. that’s a dps loss.
(edited by Telekinesis.8312)
sceptre auto attack hits harder than a staff auto and as far as conditions are concerned.
The calculations were done in response to this, hence why direct damage was not included. Like I said you may be able to make an argument with Sinister and direct damage but given how far Ether Bolt lags behind condition-wise I doubt it will suddenly make Ether Bolt do more damage than WoC.
whats the division with 1.75?
That’s the time it takes to finish Ether Bolt > Blast > Clone.
and you will be in meelee range using illusionary counter as well off cd.
Which means the mob probably isn’t moving and your Torment damage is halved. Unless this is one of those mobs that kite you in which case you won’t be in melee range a lot and your attack speed plummets.
Lose-lose either way.
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No, it doesn’t take into account other skills, because that’s a whole other can-of-worms as you should then also talk about iWarlock, Chaos Armour, Staff vs Sceptre Clones and all that jazz.
(edited by Embolism.8106)
Okay, so with Sinister the Ether Bolt chain’s direct DPS is:
( 337 + 337 + 506 ) / 1.75 = 674
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And Winds of Chaos is:
2 * 223 / 0.75 = 595
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Combine with their condition damage you get:
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Ether Bolt: 1189
Winds of Chaos: 1475
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So still an overall win for Winds of Chaos.
I’m sure the gap is closed when you take into account all the other skills (Counter, Images, Warlock, Chaos Storm), but I think it’s good enough to at least put Staff and Sceptre on par when it comes to DPS. You shouldn’t be losing much by swapping either way.
(edited by Embolism.8106)
we are talking about others skills aint we? when i mention retreat and ilock, those are other skills.. you may auto attack in staff when you’ve used retreat and ilock, but that’s not the case in scepter, you counter every time it’s off cd and the cd is really really low.. but lets not count chaos armor, duelist etc
i clearly mentioned that as far as conditions are concerned regarding auto attack.. staff has more applications meaning more condi dmg but slower attack cause you take chronophantasma over stm, when you switch to staff you can retreat and you’ll have an clone asap but, for every clone after that you need to dodge.. you dont dodge in scepter.. you block off cd and auto attack for the most part, confusing images off cd as compared to warlock.. so basically unless chaos storm is off cd.. there’s no point in switching to staff.. cause that’s where the dps increase comes from.
now that you feel gap is close, now that’s where duelist comes into play.. no chaos storm = no dps increase in staff.. cause switching to staff without chaos storm is a dps loss.. you’d rather have another duelist out in that time.
also, it’s not /0.75 without stm for staff in sword build you mentioned
(edited by Telekinesis.8312)
Your comparisons aren’t going to work until you take each build holistically :P
Telekinesis’ point requires calculations of illusion uptime and shatter damage, which makes this all much more complicated.
You’ve gotta model your rotations, and do the entire build math, or you’re both just building a house of cards (I recognized Embolism’s math, I’m just pointing out that it can’t be compared to Telekinesis’ argument until you can also model Telekinesis’ rotations).
0.75 is the base cast time of Winds of Chaos without Quickness. Like I said Quickness is not a concern here because it either affects both or none at all.
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I don’t think Illusion uptime and Shatter damage are a factor because both would be similar regardless of what kind of condition build you run, as long as the limiting factor is Shatter CD and not Illusion generation then it’s fine and no comparison is needed.
Anyways the reason this started was because Telekinesis claimed that the Sceptre is the only way to get enough Illusion generation, I questioned this until I realised it’s because he camps Sceptre exclusively. When you factor in weapon swapping it’s obvious that illusion generation is not a limiting factor for any build, so the discussion goes on to about a DPS loss when swapping to Staff.
As I showed Staff’s auto DPS is significantly higher than Sceptre’s, without factoring in Sceptre’s weirdness with range and how this interacts with Torment requiring constant movement (it would make its DPS even lower, possibly by a lot).
I’m sure you can go on to calculate the DPS contribution of all the other skills and effects, but the thing is these skills all have CDs and in general you won’t be casting them all that much in one weapon swap cycle; in which case you may as well swap weapons and get to cast all the other skills in your other weapon, swap back, so on so forth and not lose much because most of the skills on your first weapon would be on CD anyway.
(Why am I explaining weapon swapping?)
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EDIT: Actually, Quickness does affect Staff and Sceptre differently. It benefits Staff more. Why? Because Ether Bolt’s after cast is not affected by Quickness, it depends on projectile speed. This goes back to the dilemma of staying in melee range and halving Torment damage, or staying at range and losing RoF.
(edited by Embolism.8106)
Why? Because Ether Bolt’s after cast is not affected by Quickness, it depends on projectile speed. This goes back to the dilemma of staying in melee range and halving Torment damage, or staying at range and losing RoF.
It is a profound irony that the weapon that gives torment punishes kiting :P
Um.
Offhand Duelist
GS #2
GS #4
Rolls
Chronophantasma
Reversionyou’re using a gs? in a condition build?
Only after all of those are expended would you even need to consider channeling scepter auto for 3 seconds to get more clones. And during that time you could have already summoned 2-3 sword clones using Sword #3.
you summon an illusion in 1.5 seconds with quickness from shatters.. that’s 3 seconds for 2 clones is what you need for another shatter, even if you count it at 2 seconds per clone, that’s 4 seconds for 2 clones… also you seem to forget illusionary counter.. there’s just no way you can summon 2-3 sword clones in that time.
The fact of the matter is that there simply aren’t that many occasions where you would even want to channel a skill for 3 seconds to get a clone when you could just weapon swap or roll instead.
read above.. seize the moment over chronophantasma as i’v been debating with.
Seize the Moment sucks so I dunno why that’s even a consideration.
With a sword/pistol and sword/focus (the highest theoretical condi DPS on a single target), you have:
Sword #3
Duelist (worth 2 shatters with Chronophantasma)
Warden (worth 2)
So you shatter, get the reversion clone and the Chronophantasms and you have 3 again. Shatter again, you get one more clone. Roll twice, third shatter. By the time Mind Wrack is back up your illusions have recharged so you can unload your last shatter before you’re on cooldown on all of them for a while.
No need for scepter even without GS. With GS, you have a pretty substantial cooldown surplus.
With a sword/pistol and sword/focus (the highest theoretical condi DPS on a single target)
Math, please.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and you’ve provided none.
i’m on my way home now.. btw 0.75 isn’t winds of chaos cast time.. it’s more than 1.25 if i remember right without stm..
It’s 1.32 sec/hit or 0.66 sec/hit with the bounce. Or, 0.88 & 0.44 with TW respectively.
thanks fri,
0.75 is the base cast time of Winds of Chaos without Quickness. Like I said Quickness is not a concern here because it either affects both or none at all.
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I don’t think Illusion uptime and Shatter damage are a factor because both would be similar regardless of what kind of condition build you run, as long as the limiting factor is Shatter CD and not Illusion generation then it’s fine and no comparison is needed.
Anyways the reason this started was because Telekinesis claimed that the Sceptre is the only way to get enough Illusion generation, I questioned this until I realised it’s because he camps Sceptre exclusively. When you factor in weapon swapping it’s obvious that illusion generation is not a limiting factor for any build, so the discussion goes on to about a DPS loss when swapping to Staff.
As I showed Staff’s auto DPS is significantly higher than Sceptre’s, without factoring in Sceptre’s weirdness with range and how this interacts with Torment requiring constant movement (it would make its DPS even lower, possibly by a lot).
I’m sure you can go on to calculate the DPS contribution of all the other skills and effects, but the thing is these skills all have CDs and in general you won’t be casting them all that much in one weapon swap cycle; in which case you may as well swap weapons and get to cast all the other skills in your other weapon, swap back, so on so forth and not lose much because most of the skills on your first weapon would be on CD anyway.
(Why am I explaining weapon swapping?)
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EDIT: Actually, Quickness does affect Staff and Sceptre differently. It benefits Staff more. Why? Because Ether Bolt’s after cast is not affected by Quickness, it depends on projectile speed. This goes back to the dilemma of staying in melee range and halving Torment damage, or staying at range and losing RoF.
your calculations plummet with 1.32,
winds of chaos – avg condition dmg – 2*330/1.32 or 330/0.66 = 500
winds of chaos – avg physical dmg – 2*223/1.32 or 223/0.66 = 337
gets to 837
etherbolt combo – avg condition damage – 386+515/1.75 = 515
etherbolt combo – avg physical damage – 337+337+506/1.75 = 674
gets to 1189
the topic started when you tried to prove sword dps is close to a scepter dps in a condition build.. regarding scepter wierdness with range.. it’s 3.9 seconds at the farthest range and 3.3 seconds at the closest range.. i did mention staying close for the most part cause of really low cd on counter. i’v also mentioned swapping to staff with chaos storm is the only worthwhile switch.
lets not debate about quickness on staff.. in the sword build you mentioned.. you have chronophantasma.. no stm.
with my stats -
sword chain calculation – 475+475+949/2.48 = 765
sword blurred frenzy – 1728 over 2.5 sec (12 sec cd compared to counter’s 8 sec)
sword ileap – + vulnerability stacks
scepter etherbolt combo physical – 353+353+530/1.8 = 686
scepter etherbolt combo condition – 298+496/1.8 = 441 (target not moving)
scepter counter physical – 706/time you spend channeling (preferably last second)
scepter counter condition – 6941 (target not moving)
scepter counter condition – 13881 (target moving)
scepter confusing images physical – 2118 over 2 sec
scepter confusing images condition – 4934 (target not activating skills)
scepter confusing images condition – 991 (activating)
with the above results.. lets compare sword frenzy to confusing images cause both of them are on the same cd.. confusing wins outright.. unfortunately there’s nothing to compare counter’s damage to in a sword.. since i leap and auto attack vulnerability application doesn’t come close to the damage counter deals.
staff winds of chaos physical – 233+233/1.32 = 353
staff winds of chaos condition – bleed – 1217
staff winds of chaos condition – burn – 424
staff retreat clone – inflicts winds of chaos – ^
staff warlock damage – 1339 +10% per condition
staff chaos storm poison – 734
staff chaos storm physical – 257*6 = 1552 over 5 seconds
fri, need help regarding staff clone attack speed
(edited by Telekinesis.8312)
it’s 3.9 seconds at the farthest range and 3.3 seconds at the closest range..
And yet you used my 1.75s for Ether Bolt as your calulations.
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WoC: 2 * ( 330 + 223) / 1.32 = 838
Ether Bolt: ( 386 + 515 + 337 + 337 + 506 ) / 3.3 = 631
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I knew the tooltip numbers are not quite correct, but I also knew the same applies to Ether Bolt. I was being generous. These numbers make WoC even better than Ether Bolt in my original, tooltip-based calculations (from 24% better to 33% better).
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the topic started when you tried to prove sword dps is close to a scepter dps in a condition build..
Strawman. I said no such thing. My claim was that most Condi Mes DPS comes from Shatters, so your weapon choices are not as important DPS-wise. Sword provides defence, which can be important in Maguuma.
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i did mention staying close for the most part cause of really low cd on counter
Which results in halved Torment damage and makes WoC even more powerful compared to Ether Bolt.
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The rest of you comparison doesn’t make too much sense unless you take into account weapon swapping, which is the whole point of this discussion: you want to camp Sceptre. Confusing Images for example is likely only able to be used once or twice during a swap, so swapping isn’t going to lose you the entire DPS, only a small fraction.
(edited by Embolism.8106)
Okay, some more in-depth numbers. These are actually timed instead of lifted from tooltips.
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Ether Bolt melee DPS: ( ( 337 +337 + 506 ) * ( 0.5 * 0.4685 + 1 ) + ( 234 + 312 ) ) / 2.55 = 785
(^ With Runes of Tormenting and Malicious Sorcery)
Winds of Chaos DPS: 2* ( 223 * ( 0.5 * 0.4685 + 1 ) + ( 836 + 345 ) / 3 ) / 1.32 = 968
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Right off the bat, Staff has a 23% DPS advantage over Sceptre. This isn’t taking into account all the time you wouldn’t be attacking in Sceptre thanks to the cast times of IC and CI, while Staff skills have relatively short cast times.
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Now also consider this. If you camp Sceptre in melee range, ALL your Torment damage is halved. Not just from the Sceptre, but also from your Shatters: the primary source of your damage.
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Now let’s try it at range.
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Ether Bolt ranged DPS: ( ( 337 +337 + 506 ) * ( 0.5 * 0.4685 + 1 ) + 467 + 623 ) / 3.2 = 796
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Moral of the story is: don’t camp Sceptre in melee range. You’re far better off getting doubled Torment damage (for both Sceptre AND Shatters) and eating the RoF penalty.
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For reference, here are numbers with Quickness…
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Ether Bolt melee DPS: 785 / 0.67 = 1172
WoC DPS: 968 / 0.67 = 1445
Ether Bolt ranged DPS: ( ( 337 +337 + 506 ) * ( 0.5 * 0.4685 + 1 ) + 467 + 623 ) / ( 2.55 * 0.67 + 0.65 ) = 1080
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So yes, with Quickness Ether Bolt is stronger at melee than at range. But… all your Torment from your Shatters are halved. Worth it?
(edited by Embolism.8106)
And yet you used my 1.75s for Ether Bolt as your calulations.
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WoC: 2 * ( 330 + 223) / 1.32 = 838
Ether Bolt: ( 386 + 515 + 337 + 337 + 506 ) / 3.3 = 631
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I knew the tooltip numbers are not quite correct, but I also knew the same applies to Ether Bolt. I was being generous. These numbers make WoC even better than Ether Bolt in my original, tooltip-based calculations (from 24% better to 33% better).
where’s the quickness going to? with stm? you either seem to add quickness to staff in your chronophantasma build or you remove quickness from scepter with stm.. wierd calculations. calculations are wrong once again.. and i thought you put in a 1.75 as a quickness combo.. where did you get the 1.75 number from? i was generous getting it to 1.8.. wait.. why 1.8.. give it a 2.0/2.2 with quickness
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the topic started when you tried to prove sword dps is close to a scepter dps in a condition build..
Strawman. I said no such thing. My claim was that most Condi Mes DPS comes from Shatters, so your weapon choices are not as important DPS-wise. Sword provides defence, which can be important in Maguuma.
Sorry on that part, but if that’s the case.. sword isn’t even needed for defense when your using a staff and scep/pistol.. you dont need a sword for defense anywhere in maguuma. your just gimping yourself using a sword. condi mesmer dps doesn’t come with shatters alone, you can easily maintain 10 torment stacks with just counter.
Which results in halved Torment damage and makes WoC even more powerful compared to Ether Bolt.
all the damage i linked are torment damage when not moving.. no reason to point out damage getting halved.. it’s already halved damage.. and i hope you did the same.
The rest of you comparison doesn’t make too much sense unless you take into account weapon swapping, which is the whole point of this discussion: you want to camp Sceptre. Confusing Images for example is likely only able to be used once or twice during a swap, so swapping isn’t going to lose you the entire DPS, only a small fraction.
which comparision do you need weapon swapping to make sense? counter is far more potent than confusing images.
(edited by Telekinesis.8312)
Okay, some more in-depth numbers. These are actually timed instead of lifted from tooltips.
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Ether Bolt melee DPS: ( ( 337 +337 + 506 ) * ( 0.5 * 0.4685 + 1 ) + ( 234 + 312 ) ) / 2.55 = 785
(^ With Runes of Tormenting and Malicious Sorcery)Winds of Chaos DPS: 2* ( 223 * ( 0.5 * 0.4685 + 1 ) + ( 836 + 345 ) / 3 ) / 1.32 = 968
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Right off the bat, Staff has a 23% DPS advantage over Sceptre. This isn’t taking into account all the time you wouldn’t be attacking in Sceptre thanks to the cast times of IC and CI, while Staff skills have relatively short cast times.
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Now also consider this. If you camp Sceptre in melee range, ALL your Torment damage is halved. Not just from the Sceptre, but also from your Shatters: the primary source of your damage.
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Now let’s try it at range.
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Ether Bolt ranged DPS: ( ( 337 +337 + 506 ) * ( 0.5 * 0.4685 + 1 ) + 467 + 623 ) / 3.2 = 796
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Moral of the story is: don’t camp Sceptre in melee range. You’re far better off getting doubled Torment damage (for both Sceptre AND Shatters) and eating the RoF penalty.
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For reference, here are numbers with Quickness…
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Ether Bolt melee DPS: 785 / 0.67 = 1172
WoC DPS: 968 / 0.67 = 1445
Ether Bolt ranged DPS: ( ( 337 +337 + 506 ) * ( 0.5 * 0.4685 + 1 ) + 467 + 623 ) / ( 2.55 * 0.67 + 0.65 ) = 1080
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So yes, with Quickness Ether Bolt is stronger at melee than at range. But… all your Torment from your Shatters are halved. Worth it?
You dont go malicious sorcery, and for the most part, you have quickness from shatters, dont calculate with any changed traits.. we’r calculating a shatter build.. lets stick with ineptitude.
and if i remember right.. the last balance patch pre-expansion shows all the tooltip damage numbers accurately.
please.. talking about torment damage being halved is getting ridiculous… the numbers we are calculating are torment damage when target’s not moving.
and regarding the calculations.. i’v mentioned it in the post above
you seem to be mistaken.. when i mention meelee range.. that doesn’t mean.. i stand at a spot and get smashed by champions.. it means i keep kiting around but i’m very close to meelee if not meelee, ofc i’m at meelee range at every counter.
If we’re talking Sinister Chrono build…
Scepter camping is awesome. Scepter should have been the elite weapon that came with this specialization. IC and CI on 6/7 sec cooldowns pumps out a lot more physical and condi damage than you’d get with your staff AA. CI also hits multiple enemies with a tiny bit of positional awareness.
Dropping staff also means you can pick up a focus. Chronophantasma Wardens are awesome for stacking bleeds, are AoE, Whirl finisher, block projectiles. Best of all, Wardens scale better with more people around (unlike staff… cant control where that orb is going!). I’ve (unintentionally) gotten 4.2k Burns and 3k poison ticks from other people’s field effects just rolling through my phantasm rotation.
I do think its unfortunate that Chrono seems to be one big bandage (more like a body cast) to so many of our mechanics, though.
IC and CI on 6/7 sec cooldowns
So how many times can you use IC and CI in 9 seconds? Is losing 1 or 2 casts of IC/CI over 18 seconds worth losing out on an entire other set of skills, one that comes with 23% more auto DPS?
fri, need help regarding staff clone attack speed
All that data is in my sig. For the lazy:
- 2.442 sec per hit
- 1.701 sec per hit with TW
lol.. thx.. i knew something was wrong when the attkspeed of the clone was shown as 1.25 sec in gw2wiki
(edited by Telekinesis.8312)
Are we ignoring sharper images? Because sword clones don’t die as easily anymore.
This is in comparison to scepter which has a slower autom
“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.
Are we ignoring sharper images? Because sword clones don’t die as easily anymore.
This is in comparison to scepter which has a slower autom
Unfortunately, since all three weapons can proc Sharper Images, the difference in attack speeds isn’t enough to make up for the loss of direct condition application.
IC and CI on 6/7 sec cooldowns
So how many times can you use IC and CI in 9 seconds? Is losing 1 or 2 casts of IC/CI over 18 seconds worth losing out on an entire other set of skills, one that comes with 23% more auto DPS?
No, its not.
Its the lower cooldown IC + CI AND gaining access to the warden that makes it so effective.
Also, Lets not pretend staff is an ‘entire other set of skills’…
Phase retreat doesnt do any damage. Its also the only finisher the weapon provides (lolLeap finisher)
Warlock is generally ignored.
Chaos armor is pretty worthless. why are you getting hit?
Chaos storm is pretty great, BUT it still only applies one damaging condition (randomly!) and it has a fairly long cooldown.
If you’re using staff, you’re just riding its AA. Max hybrid damage used to be x3 duelists and AAing with staff + Chaos storm off cooldown. Staff clones were great because our illusions used to get smashed easily, so replacing a duelist with a staff clone was a quick and easy way to make up some DPS.
Chrono has changed that. Along with the minion damage change (<3).
With scepter + pistol and focus, I can keep a constant stream of whirl and projectile finishers pressuring my target. Its all about timing shatters around phantasm attack cycles.
Try it! Or dont! Its PvE, play however you want. Tickling things to death with staff is still an option.
Phase Retreat is a great defensive skill and can proc Chaos Armour (more on that later). If you’re using Chaotic Dampening it’s also guaranteed Protection. Unlike central Tyria, defence is actually a concern in Maguuma.
Then of course there’s the fact that it’s an on-demand Clone, something Sceptre doesn’t have; which also happens to contribute more DPS than Sceptre Clones.
Given that you’re talking of Sinister builds, I don’t think you can ignore Warlock at all. If nothing else it is the lowest CD Phantasm for Shatter fodder.
“Chaos Armour is worthless, why are you getting hit?” The same can be said of Illusionary Counter. Yes I know IC has a stronger on-hit effect, but the point is asking “why are you getting hit” is weird when one of the skills you’re using is all about getting hit.
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But all this seems irrelevant, because we’re on two different pages here. If you’re using the Warden then you’d be switching weapons fairly frequently I imagine (as the Warden with Alacrity is on a 12s/15s CD).
My discussion with Telekinesis was about him not switching weapons, claiming that doing so is a DPS loss. In fact he claimed that Ether Bolt deals more DPS than Winds of Chaos, which I’ve proven is quite the opposite.
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