Core Mesmer is better at attacking + evade
Forgot the part where i say it should either be nerfed or have its rotation made more engaging and interesting to reflect those numbers. In truth im glad mesmer has a power dps build its jsut that that one is such a joke and a meme compaired to every other dps build in the game that in its current form doesnt deserve the numbers.
I never abandoned it i got an answer from someone in the formus which satisfied me for that time.
As for the distort arguement. Ye mirage still brings distrot and prob has some neat numbers as well. How exactly mirage isnt haping up to be a viable if not great dps exactly?
Calling guard a aa spec you prob never played it in pve, poor you. Since memser was trash at anything else it ended up being the support spec so yeah where was i wrong?
Oh I’m sorry I missed the part where you can dodge mid cast without interrupting as well as the part of Mirage that disallows them to use signets, sword, and the domination line.
The whole point of giving us a worse dodge is so we can carry on attacking while dodging. Mesmer provides better tools to do it. Mirage is pointless.
No need to be so confrontational.
Mesmer doesn’t give us better tools to do it though since we can use all of those tools while also having the tools the Mirage has, that’s what my post was saying.
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class, the only thing it takes away is the short roll from dodging, but if you really need that mobility you can trade out your elite for jaunt.
Mirage also takes an entire traitline and replaces it with a completely worthless one that has no throughput or group support traits outside the single two grandmasters.
So, yes, you are most definitely losing something by taking Mirage.
Doesnt have group support. Ok? Your point?
If it can’t support, it better exceed as a DPS role in a raid setting in a manner competitive to warrior/thief/guardian. It doesn’t.
You will NEVER be allowed to play Mirage in PvE over chrono so long as mirage stays a garbage DPS spec.
“Play mirage over chrono”. Since when chrono was a dps role and mirage or any other dps had to compete witht he chrono? Do you see what you are writing u dont make ANY sense. Also, when did you get to try mirage again in raids? Esp now that confusions an torment have bleed ticks.
You’re being painfully dense.
Chrono is a support role. A top tier, necessary support role. A raid won’t give up that role so you can play an inferior DPS spec. Which is why you need a top tier DPS spec, which the mirage isn’t.
Again why would a group ive up a chrono for a mirage? They are 2 diff things. Also im seeing these claims that mirage is trash in pve. Again, did you test it in raids or fractals?
Yes, two different things, like a PS warrior and condi warrior. And the reason people allow a warrior to go condi DPS and not PS is because the alternative does enough damage to merit a raid slot.
Mirage does not. It doesn’t take raid testing to know a spec’s numbers. All you needed is a golem to know the potential output. And mirage’s output is just bad.
What?
Oh I’m sorry I missed the part where you can dodge mid cast without interrupting as well as the part of Mirage that disallows them to use signets, sword, and the domination line.
The whole point of giving us a worse dodge is so we can carry on attacking while dodging. Mesmer provides better tools to do it. Mirage is pointless.
No need to be so confrontational.
Mesmer doesn’t give us better tools to do it though since we can use all of those tools while also having the tools the Mirage has, that’s what my post was saying.
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class, the only thing it takes away is the short roll from dodging, but if you really need that mobility you can trade out your elite for jaunt.
Mirage also takes an entire traitline and replaces it with a completely worthless one that has no throughput or group support traits outside the single two grandmasters.
So, yes, you are most definitely losing something by taking Mirage.
You’re not directly losing something it’s opportunity cost, this wasn’t an argument over “what’s better at support Mirage or Mesmer?” This was “Mesmer is better at evading while attacking” which is blatantly false. If your goal is to be offensive while being hard to hit you’d want Mirage over base Mesmer, and for that role you sacrifice very little.
That’s not what you said though. you exactly said:
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class
and in this case that is untrue since you can’t take 3 core traitlines with mirage thus you are effectively not able to use all your core abilities. Mirage is competing for a traitline slot and is barely better than the core trailines, which is the actual problem here.
Mirage does not prevent him from taking sword, signers, or the domination line as my original quote was talking about. But nice try.
And the elite specs really shouldn’t be that much stronger than the core specs, they should give a different playstyle, not an upgrade, just as Anet said they wanted it to be. The problem is they kittened up balance wise on the first batch and now everyone thinks elite specs are supposed to be a mandatory upgrade for you based on your role.
Well theres the problem isn’t it. You have two choices Durzlla
1) Elite Specs are better then core: Mirage is useless because its weaker then core Mesmer.
2) Elite Specs are sidegrades to core with new ways to play: Mesmer already has better tools to dodge while attacking, Mirage adds no new ways to play.
Still waiting for an answer to this.
What?
The part he forgot to include was: If you bring a Mesmer into your raid group.
If you have a Mesmer, you’re going to be Chrono 8/10 times. The other 2 times you’re DPS. But, even if you ARE DPS, you still get more damage being a Power Mesmer than a Condi Mes/Mir.
What?
The part he forgot to include was: If you bring a Mesmer into your raid group.
If you have a Mesmer, you’re going to be Chrono 8/10 times. The other 2 times you’re DPS. But, even if you ARE DPS, you still get more damage being a Power Mesmer than a Condi Mes/Mir.
Have you tested condi mirage dps doe??
Have you tested condi mirage dps doe??
In what way?
and? Where does it say that this Elite spec should out damage a core spec and out evade another?
Elite specs are not meant to be far superior than other core specs, so yes, probably another core spec has more evades, another has more damage, Elite specs are meant to open more options and diversity, not give you an overpowered version of other core specs.Pro tip: If you like Blurred Frenzy that much, just use it when specced into Mirage??
Elite specs are supposed to be pure upgrades to the core specializations and side grades to each other. They’ve said that multiple times.
Literally all of the generation 1 elite specs are flat upgrades to core specializations with the exception of scrapper, which is still a flat upgrade to engineer in PvP.
It’s absurd to say the Daredevil is not a direct upgrade to the thief’s evasion capabilities. Or that Berserker isn’t a flat upgrade to a warrior’s damage, condition damage, and ability to pump out burst skills. Or that the Chronomancer isn’t a direct upgrade to mesmer’s team support capabilities and defensive capabilities.
Again, the Elite Specs are supposed to be stronger than core specs. They just aren’t meant to stronger than other elite specs.
Elite specs were never meant to be pure upgrades to the core professions and they shouldn’t be. They are upgrades right now and need to be toned down/reworked until they’re on the same level as core professions.
Doctor Beetus – Burst Engi Maguuma
twitch.tv/doctorbeetus
twitch.tv/doctorbeetus
They’re upgrades alright but they should be on 1-2 departments only. Like how Chronomancer upgrades Mesmer’s supportive, utility and control roles properly. Like how Berserker makes Warrior a strong bursty beast. Like how Dragonhunter is a pure upgrade of guardian’s DPS capabilities. Like how Druid becomes a powerful healer. (well Tempest is 100% an upgrade in healing, damage and tanking making it the most poorly designed out of the 1st gen elites.) They are upgrades for sure, but look at Mirage… literally not an upgrade in any way. More like a sidegrade (even worse lol).
I definitely understand people’s frustrations with Mirage, but I think the theme has some potential just that they really undertuned it/were really conservative on the numbers.
Mirage DPS HYPE
Tempest was supposed to be a support spec but it failed pretty horribly, so they upped the damage and it became a straight upgrade to damage while also giving more supportive options. :/
and? Where does it say that this Elite spec should out damage a core spec and out evade another?
Elite specs are not meant to be far superior than other core specs, so yes, probably another core spec has more evades, another has more damage, Elite specs are meant to open more options and diversity, not give you an overpowered version of other core specs.Pro tip: If you like Blurred Frenzy that much, just use it when specced into Mirage??
Elite specs are supposed to be pure upgrades to the core specializations and side grades to each other. They’ve said that multiple times.
Literally all of the generation 1 elite specs are flat upgrades to core specializations with the exception of scrapper, which is still a flat upgrade to engineer in PvP.
It’s absurd to say the Daredevil is not a direct upgrade to the thief’s evasion capabilities. Or that Berserker isn’t a flat upgrade to a warrior’s damage, condition damage, and ability to pump out burst skills. Or that the Chronomancer isn’t a direct upgrade to mesmer’s team support capabilities and defensive capabilities.
Again, the Elite Specs are supposed to be stronger than core specs. They just aren’t meant to stronger than other elite specs.
Elite specs were never meant to be pure upgrades to the core professions and they shouldn’t be. They are upgrades right now and need to be toned down/reworked until they’re on the same level as core professions.
Never going to happen, never designed for, this was clear when generation 1 elite specialisations rolled out.
Forget that notion and get real, elite specialisations are upgrades and should be balanced against each other while augmenting the class for different things with each elite. Asking for anything else or even that arenanet rework and/or tone down generation 1 elites is insanity.
This has to be the most toxic post on the forums right now..
It started as a whine topic and it basically turned into a bash topic.
Put your feedback down if you like, reply to that person’s feedback if you like, but there really is no need in keeping on calling people out for their opinions or how they ‘think’ things were intended by the devs or how not, we simply can’t know this unless someone has a video clip or post from them saying how Elite specs were really meant to be implemented.
This has to be the most toxic post on the forums right now..
It started as a whine topic and it basically turned into a bash topic.Put your feedback down if you like, reply to that person’s feedback if you like, but there really is no need in keeping on calling people out for their opinions or how they ‘think’ things were intended by the devs or how not, we simply can’t know this unless someone has a video clip or post from them saying how Elite specs were really meant to be implemented.
This goes both ways, though. One person said that especs weren’t meant to be upgrades, but sidegrades. Another person said that they’re meant to be upgrades. They’re both (arguably) opinions, although they may have some reasoning behind why they think that.
This has to be the most toxic post on the forums right now..
It started as a whine topic and it basically turned into a bash topic.
No it started out with me showing that Mesmer is better then Mirage and Mirage offers no new ways to play.
Just because you can’t take part in conversations doesn’t mean you should insult people, that is very childish.
and? Where does it say that this Elite spec should out damage a core spec and out evade another?
Elite specs are not meant to be far superior than other core specs, so yes, probably another core spec has more evades, another has more damage, Elite specs are meant to open more options and diversity, not give you an overpowered version of other core specs.Pro tip: If you like Blurred Frenzy that much, just use it when specced into Mirage??
Elite specs are supposed to be pure upgrades to the core specializations and side grades to each other. They’ve said that multiple times.
Literally all of the generation 1 elite specs are flat upgrades to core specializations with the exception of scrapper, which is still a flat upgrade to engineer in PvP.
It’s absurd to say the Daredevil is not a direct upgrade to the thief’s evasion capabilities. Or that Berserker isn’t a flat upgrade to a warrior’s damage, condition damage, and ability to pump out burst skills. Or that the Chronomancer isn’t a direct upgrade to mesmer’s team support capabilities and defensive capabilities.
Again, the Elite Specs are supposed to be stronger than core specs. They just aren’t meant to stronger than other elite specs.
Elite specs were never meant to be pure upgrades to the core professions and they shouldn’t be. They are upgrades right now and need to be toned down/reworked until they’re on the same level as core professions.
Never going to happen, never designed for, this was clear when generation 1 elite specialisations rolled out.
Forget that notion and get real, elite specialisations are upgrades and should be balanced against each other while augmenting the class for different things with each elite. Asking for anything else or even that arenanet rework and/or tone down generation 1 elites is insanity.
From the rumours Ive heard they will be and have toned down the 1st set of elite specs. Look at berserker, most PvP/WvW players have switched to core warrior now as the berserker burst GS cast time got increased and it now only counts as a single bar of adrenaline spent.
I heard there’s a significant rework of reaper on its way with PoF too and that the expansion also serves as a balance patch. The rework is to make it a more direct damage and melee elite spec while scourge would be more condi and support focused. There’s no reason to believe changes like this can’t happen to other elite specs, DH becoming far more selfish, massive damage reduction to tempests and a couple of slight skill reworks.
Whether I have confidence in ANets ability to deliver is another thing but right now I feel a lot of PoF elites are much closer to how elite specs were advertised in the beginning.
I’m kinda looking forward to Mirage more after seeing that video. I hadn’t had a chance to play it, so seeing how nimble it can be is intriguing, of of my biggest problems with Mesmer gameplay was it’s movement outside of teleports being a little underwhelming. Chronomancer brought in more speed, but not this level of mobility.
I’m not gonna argue about whether or not it’s a BETTER spec, because my life is too short to care and I’m just going to play whatever I want anyway, but thanks to whoever linked that vid. That was neat!
I definitely understand people’s frustrations with Mirage, but I think the theme has some potential just that they really undertuned it/were really conservative on the numbers.
I think this can be summed up as “Mesmer”.
In fact, the state of being severely undertuned due to worries about excessive performance leading to frustration for other players should from now on be called “mesmer”.
Examples:
- “Warriors felt very mesmer this season.”
- “That’s a mesmer skill.”
- Mirage
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
and? Where does it say that this Elite spec should out damage a core spec and out evade another?
Elite specs are not meant to be far superior than other core specs, so yes, probably another core spec has more evades, another has more damage, Elite specs are meant to open more options and diversity, not give you an overpowered version of other core specs.Pro tip: If you like Blurred Frenzy that much, just use it when specced into Mirage??
Elite specs are supposed to be pure upgrades to the core specializations and side grades to each other. They’ve said that multiple times.
Literally all of the generation 1 elite specs are flat upgrades to core specializations with the exception of scrapper, which is still a flat upgrade to engineer in PvP.
It’s absurd to say the Daredevil is not a direct upgrade to the thief’s evasion capabilities. Or that Berserker isn’t a flat upgrade to a warrior’s damage, condition damage, and ability to pump out burst skills. Or that the Chronomancer isn’t a direct upgrade to mesmer’s team support capabilities and defensive capabilities.
Again, the Elite Specs are supposed to be stronger than core specs. They just aren’t meant to stronger than other elite specs.
Elite specs were never meant to be pure upgrades to the core professions and they shouldn’t be. They are upgrades right now and need to be toned down/reworked until they’re on the same level as core professions.
Never going to happen, never designed for, this was clear when generation 1 elite specialisations rolled out.
Forget that notion and get real, elite specialisations are upgrades and should be balanced against each other while augmenting the class for different things with each elite. Asking for anything else or even that arenanet rework and/or tone down generation 1 elites is insanity.
From the rumours Ive heard they will be and have toned down the 1st set of elite specs. Look at berserker, most PvP/WvW players have switched to core warrior now as the berserker burst GS cast time got increased and it now only counts as a single bar of adrenaline spent.
I heard there’s a significant rework of reaper on its way with PoF too and that the expansion also serves as a balance patch. The rework is to make it a more direct damage and melee elite spec while scourge would be more condi and support focused. There’s no reason to believe changes like this can’t happen to other elite specs, DH becoming far more selfish, massive damage reduction to tempests and a couple of slight skill reworks.
Whether I have confidence in ANets ability to deliver is another thing but right now I feel a lot of PoF elites are much closer to how elite specs were advertised in the beginning.
I have to disagree. Yes from a spvp and to some extent wvw perspective maybe, but the first generation elites were predominantly pve focused and pve balanced. Generation 2 elites are clearly aimed at competative game modes. My proof, the current quantify benchmark:
https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-august-balance-patch/
- the first none elite spec in that benchmark is Engineer where most people would agree that scrapper is a spvp/wvw elite spec.
- Holosmith looks as though it might be a pve focused elite
- the next core build is condi ranger, where ranger elite was a heal specialised focus which makes sense for it to not show up (same goes for mesmer with chrono being a support elite). Both druid and chrono are THE top tier picks for their desired roles
- the first core build to show up is D/D thief at sub 30k, close to 5k below its Daredevil counterpart
I’ll rephrase what I said earlier:
- It’s not impossible for arenanet to rebalance all the elite specs ingame to be onpar with core builds. It is highly unlikely from both an effort and business perspective that they would though. Elite specialisations sell expansions, having them be better than core specs is a financial incentive.
(edited by Cyninja.2954)
From the rumours Ive heard they will be and have toned down the 1st set of elite specs. Look at berserker, most PvP/WvW players have switched to core warrior now as the berserker burst GS cast time got increased and it now only counts as a single bar of adrenaline spent.
I heard there’s a significant rework of reaper on its way with PoF too and that the expansion also serves as a balance patch. The rework is to make it a more direct damage and melee elite spec while scourge would be more condi and support focused. There’s no reason to believe changes like this can’t happen to other elite specs, DH becoming far more selfish, massive damage reduction to tempests and a couple of slight skill reworks.
Whether I have confidence in ANets ability to deliver is another thing but right now I feel a lot of PoF elites are much closer to how elite specs were advertised in the beginning.
I have to disagree. Yes from a spvp and to some extent wvw perspective maybe, but the first generation elites were predominantly pve focused and pve balanced. Generation 2 elites are clearly aimed at competative game modes. My proof, the current quantify benchmark:
https://qtfy.eu/guildwars/benchmarks-august-balance-patch/
- the only none elite spec in that benchmark is Engineer where most people would agree that scrapper is a spvp/wvw elite spec.
- Holosmith looks as though it might be a pve focused elite
- the next core build is condi ranger, where ranger elite was a heal specialised focus which makes sense for it to not show up (same goes for mesmer with chrono being a support elite)
- the first core build to show up is D/D thief at sub 30k, close to 5k below its Daredevil counterpartI’ll rephrase what I said earlier:
- It’s not impossible for arenanet to rebalance all the elite specs ingame to be onpar with core builds. It is highly unlikely from both an effort and business perspective that they would though. Elite specialisations sell expansions, having them be better than core specs is a financial incentive.
That comment about them being PvE balanced works until you realise that every single elite spec on launch of HoT was straight up stronger than core across every single game mode with the exception of condi engy in PvE. It’s taken nearly 2 years to get to our current point and yet in PvP and WvW you are disadvantaged by not running your HoT elite spec as they bring so much to the table.
I’m basically relaying some of the rumours I’ve heard which is that current elite specs are going to be tuned down so they are strong in a niche or better fit a role. Right now most elite specs are straight up better for the classes at most roles, there’s some exceptions but it is a noticeable trend.
While I will agree there is a financial incentive to make elite lines better than core there isn’t an incentive to make it so pronounced as it was at HoT. HoT destroyed the player base considerably, there’s very little of a PvP scene left, WvW has had to be compressed into half as many servers because so many left and PvE has pretty dead maps from what I’ve seen. A lot of this came from the balance or lack off between HoT and core and how many perceived ANet to have lied to them about elite specs being a side grade of sorts.
I don’t mind the elites being a little better than core lines but the current elites especially chrono is just a straight upgrade to mesmer no matter which way you cut it. The PoF ones seem to be much more tailored to a specific niche and more in line with what was advertised as the idea behind elites.
I am a bit hopeful for the mirage, all things considered. Mostly because Anet has already answered my prayers when they buffed core mesmer. I now do significant damage in the power spec and don’t have to take conflicting traits to do it. Mesmer is now one of my favorite classes to play again, because I am not relegated to the role of wet-noodle buff bot.
The PVE build idea I had for mirage is essentially point blank mirror spam:
- Jaunt when off Cooldown
- Mirror Images
- Crystal Sands (spawns third clone and mirror)
- Ether Barrage
- Dodge -> Ether Barrage
- Illusionary Ambush → Ether Barrage
- Cry of Frustration (Spawns mirror)
- Ether Barrage
- Dodge -> Ether Barrage
And so on. I don’t have anything too solid, but in theory if you could keep mirrors and vigor up you could spend most of the fight just spamming mass clone ambush attacks. If the numbers were buffed significantly, the clone-ambush-shatter spam trifecta could be an interesting way to play. I’m pretty sure that is what they’re aiming for, too, since core mesmer is anchored so heavily to phantasms.
But yes, everything on the mirage is flimsy and ineffectual. The utilities are impotent, half the traits should be innate, the weapon doesn’t work with what the class wants to do, and the ability to change illusion targets should be f5. The only reason people will take this line is because Nomad’s Endurance and Dune Cloak are better than Chaotic Transference for raw damage, and it will never be taken in PVP.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
While I will agree there is a financial incentive to make elite lines better than core there isn’t an incentive to make it so pronounced as it was at HoT. HoT destroyed the player base considerably, there’s very little of a PvP scene left, WvW has had to be compressed into half as many servers because so many left and PvE has pretty dead maps from what I’ve seen. A lot of this came from the balance or lack off between HoT and core and how many perceived ANet to have lied to them about elite specs being a side grade of sorts.
I don’t mind the elites being a little better than core lines but the current elites especially chrono is just a straight upgrade to mesmer no matter which way you cut it. The PoF ones seem to be much more tailored to a specific niche and more in line with what was advertised as the idea behind elites.
There was a pvp scene in GW2?
What ever there was in GW2 pvp wise died out due to way different reasons than elite specs. The game is not fun for pvp and worse yet, it’s not fun to watch. The last time arenanet tried to cater to the spvp crowd was when the game nearly died post HoT. They barely managed to fix this with their reworks of HoT maps and Living World which took way to long post HoT.
The majority of PoF elite specs are spvp and wvw based and as far as those game modes are concerned, they are super overpowered. Have you seen what a Spellbreaker does to a wvw zerg? Those 1500 range Deadeye crits sure seem balanced.
It’s only natural to not perceive them as powerful from a pve perspective. Those that are not as spvp focused like say Firebrand come with gimmicky 1 button perma quickness stuff while being able to bring decent damage.
I stand by my assessment that elite specialisations will remain more powerful than core builds and this will even increase with the amount of elite specialisations added until every role or niche is filled by an elite specialisation for each class which logic dictates is the ultimate goal of the elite system.
Oh I’m sorry I missed the part where you can dodge mid cast without interrupting as well as the part of Mirage that disallows them to use signets, sword, and the domination line.
The whole point of giving us a worse dodge is so we can carry on attacking while dodging. Mesmer provides better tools to do it. Mirage is pointless.
No need to be so confrontational.
Mesmer doesn’t give us better tools to do it though since we can use all of those tools while also having the tools the Mirage has, that’s what my post was saying.
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class, the only thing it takes away is the short roll from dodging, but if you really need that mobility you can trade out your elite for jaunt.
Mirage also takes an entire traitline and replaces it with a completely worthless one that has no throughput or group support traits outside the single two grandmasters.
So, yes, you are most definitely losing something by taking Mirage.
Doesnt have group support. Ok? Your point?
If it can’t support, it better exceed as a DPS role in a raid setting in a manner competitive to warrior/thief/guardian. It doesn’t.
You will NEVER be allowed to play Mirage in PvE over chrono so long as mirage stays a garbage DPS spec.
“Play mirage over chrono”. Since when chrono was a dps role and mirage or any other dps had to compete witht he chrono? Do you see what you are writing u dont make ANY sense. Also, when did you get to try mirage again in raids? Esp now that confusions an torment have bleed ticks.
You’re being painfully dense.
Chrono is a support role. A top tier, necessary support role. A raid won’t give up that role so you can play an inferior DPS spec. Which is why you need a top tier DPS spec, which the mirage isn’t.
Not saying Mirage is better than chrono, but the same thing literally happens for Druid, you’re allowed to play as. DPS ranger just like you’d be allowed to play as a Mirage, because you’re not competing for the same role as a chrono, just like a dps ranger isn’t competing for the Druids role so one being better than the other is irrelevant.
Will the group likely have a chrono AND Druid? Absolutely, does that suddenly mean Mirage and condi Druid can never be played because they’re arguably worse than Druid/chrono? No, because their goal is different, it’s to kill things, where Druid and chrono are to buff.
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
Oh I’m sorry I missed the part where you can dodge mid cast without interrupting as well as the part of Mirage that disallows them to use signets, sword, and the domination line.
The whole point of giving us a worse dodge is so we can carry on attacking while dodging. Mesmer provides better tools to do it. Mirage is pointless.
No need to be so confrontational.
Mesmer doesn’t give us better tools to do it though since we can use all of those tools while also having the tools the Mirage has, that’s what my post was saying.
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class, the only thing it takes away is the short roll from dodging, but if you really need that mobility you can trade out your elite for jaunt.
Mirage also takes an entire traitline and replaces it with a completely worthless one that has no throughput or group support traits outside the single two grandmasters.
So, yes, you are most definitely losing something by taking Mirage.
You’re not directly losing something it’s opportunity cost, this wasn’t an argument over “what’s better at support Mirage or Mesmer?” This was “Mesmer is better at evading while attacking” which is blatantly false. If your goal is to be offensive while being hard to hit you’d want Mirage over base Mesmer, and for that role you sacrifice very little.
That’s not what you said though. you exactly said:
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class
and in this case that is untrue since you can’t take 3 core traitlines with mirage thus you are effectively not able to use all your core abilities. Mirage is competing for a traitline slot and is barely better than the core trailines, which is the actual problem here.
Mirage does not prevent him from taking sword, signers, or the domination line as my original quote was talking about. But nice try.
And the elite specs really shouldn’t be that much stronger than the core specs, they should give a different playstyle, not an upgrade, just as Anet said they wanted it to be. The problem is they kittened up balance wise on the first batch and now everyone thinks elite specs are supposed to be a mandatory upgrade for you based on your role.
Well theres the problem isn’t it. You have two choices Durzlla
1) Elite Specs are better then core: Mirage is useless because its weaker then core Mesmer.
2) Elite Specs are sidegrades to core with new ways to play: Mesmer already has better tools to dodge while attacking, Mirage adds no new ways to play.
Still waiting for an answer to this.
Sorry, thought I had replied to this.
1) I fully agree with you if elite specs are supposed to be better than core, Mirage has low numbers, I’m not arguing with that, I just assumed the numbers would be buffed.
2) I disagree that Mirage is worse at dodging and attacking, since it literally does that better with the new dodge mechanic on top of what mes already has. will say that it’s got worse mobility than Mesmer though.
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
Oh I’m sorry I missed the part where you can dodge mid cast without interrupting as well as the part of Mirage that disallows them to use signets, sword, and the domination line.
The whole point of giving us a worse dodge is so we can carry on attacking while dodging. Mesmer provides better tools to do it. Mirage is pointless.
No need to be so confrontational.
Mesmer doesn’t give us better tools to do it though since we can use all of those tools while also having the tools the Mirage has, that’s what my post was saying.
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class, the only thing it takes away is the short roll from dodging, but if you really need that mobility you can trade out your elite for jaunt.
Mirage also takes an entire traitline and replaces it with a completely worthless one that has no throughput or group support traits outside the single two grandmasters.
So, yes, you are most definitely losing something by taking Mirage.
Doesnt have group support. Ok? Your point?
If it can’t support, it better exceed as a DPS role in a raid setting in a manner competitive to warrior/thief/guardian. It doesn’t.
You will NEVER be allowed to play Mirage in PvE over chrono so long as mirage stays a garbage DPS spec.
“Play mirage over chrono”. Since when chrono was a dps role and mirage or any other dps had to compete witht he chrono? Do you see what you are writing u dont make ANY sense. Also, when did you get to try mirage again in raids? Esp now that confusions an torment have bleed ticks.
You’re being painfully dense.
Chrono is a support role. A top tier, necessary support role. A raid won’t give up that role so you can play an inferior DPS spec. Which is why you need a top tier DPS spec, which the mirage isn’t.
Not saying Mirage is better than chrono, but the same thing literally happens for Druid, you’re allowed to play as. DPS ranger just like you’d be allowed to play as a Mirage, because you’re not competing for the same role as a chrono, just like a dps ranger isn’t competing for the Druids role so one being better than the other is irrelevant.
Will the group likely have a chrono AND Druid? Absolutely, does that suddenly mean Mirage and condi Druid can never be played because they’re arguably worse than Druid/chrono? No, because their goal is different, it’s to kill things, where Druid and chrono are to buff.
You are missunderstanding Zenith, he is not saying mirage is inferior to chrono dps or that you can’t play mirage next to chrono.
He is saying that:
A.) as far as mesmer slots are concerned, chrono spots will get filled up first and if you show up as mirage people will demand you change to chrono to support or tank
B.) Mirage is an inferior dps spec compared to other dps specs (not chrono since chrono is no dps spec). Cranger while not top tier is close enough for people to take them along (less so now after they fell off even more).
So now you not only have to fill up 2 raid slots with chronos first, you also have to convince your raid lead to take you along on an inferior dps spec. Also dps druid still provides basic support and healing (and most of his other passive benefits) for those encounters where not as much healing is needed. Mirage provides NOTHING which chrono gets taken along for (or close to nothing) and that which they bring is covered by the 2 chronos already in raid.
Not saying Mirage is better than chrono, but the same thing literally happens for Druid, you’re allowed to play as. DPS ranger just like you’d be allowed to play as a Mirage, because you’re not competing for the same role as a chrono, just like a dps ranger isn’t competing for the Druids role so one being better than the other is irrelevant.
Will the group likely have a chrono AND Druid? Absolutely, does that suddenly mean Mirage and condi Druid can never be played because they’re arguably worse than Druid/chrono? No, because their goal is different, it’s to kill things, where Druid and chrono are to buff.
There’s a reason DPS Druid is ran, and it’s not ran for nearly the same reasons you’d bring a Mirage…
Grace of the Land
Spotter
Frost Spirit
Sun Spirit
Glyph of Empowerment
They offer wayyy too much support and can still bring near as much damage as Condi Ranger. The heals on Condi Druid are pitiful and it’s really only a good option if you’re confident in your groups damage output (see: static Fractal groups), otherwise you’re better off going Healing Druid to maintain Scholar on your DPS’.
Mirage (and Chrono) do not offer this same “fire and forget” attitude. Mirage offers nothing new in terms of utility, and the damage output is abysmal compared to core Mesmer. Axe itself is fighting with core Mesmer issues because all of the weapon skills are damage skills, but you can’t cast Axe2 with 3 Phants out. Sure, you can still run Reflects, but you’re not any better at reflecting, so why run Mirage?
Chrono can’t maintain Quickness and Alacrity while dealing high DPS (you’re looking at a peak of 1/3 your teammates dps if you run full zerk in a realistic raid). You can run DPS Chrono, but then you aren’t outputting any Quickness and your Alacrity is pretty horrid, meaning you’re just filling a DPS slot instead of meshing two roles (this is due to how low Quickness durations we give without Concentration).
If you wanted to kill things, I would recommend not running Mirage, as the condi dps gained is minimal and still puts it behind Power Mesmer.
Oh I’m sorry I missed the part where you can dodge mid cast without interrupting as well as the part of Mirage that disallows them to use signets, sword, and the domination line.
The whole point of giving us a worse dodge is so we can carry on attacking while dodging. Mesmer provides better tools to do it. Mirage is pointless.
No need to be so confrontational.
Mesmer doesn’t give us better tools to do it though since we can use all of those tools while also having the tools the Mirage has, that’s what my post was saying.
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class, the only thing it takes away is the short roll from dodging, but if you really need that mobility you can trade out your elite for jaunt.
Mirage also takes an entire traitline and replaces it with a completely worthless one that has no throughput or group support traits outside the single two grandmasters.
So, yes, you are most definitely losing something by taking Mirage.
You’re not directly losing something it’s opportunity cost, this wasn’t an argument over “what’s better at support Mirage or Mesmer?” This was “Mesmer is better at evading while attacking” which is blatantly false. If your goal is to be offensive while being hard to hit you’d want Mirage over base Mesmer, and for that role you sacrifice very little.
That’s not what you said though. you exactly said:
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class
and in this case that is untrue since you can’t take 3 core traitlines with mirage thus you are effectively not able to use all your core abilities. Mirage is competing for a traitline slot and is barely better than the core trailines, which is the actual problem here.
Mirage does not prevent him from taking sword, signers, or the domination line as my original quote was talking about. But nice try.
And the elite specs really shouldn’t be that much stronger than the core specs, they should give a different playstyle, not an upgrade, just as Anet said they wanted it to be. The problem is they kittened up balance wise on the first batch and now everyone thinks elite specs are supposed to be a mandatory upgrade for you based on your role.
Well theres the problem isn’t it. You have two choices Durzlla
1) Elite Specs are better then core: Mirage is useless because its weaker then core Mesmer.
2) Elite Specs are sidegrades to core with new ways to play: Mesmer already has better tools to dodge while attacking, Mirage adds no new ways to play.
Still waiting for an answer to this.
Sorry, thought I had replied to this.
1) I fully agree with you if elite specs are supposed to be better than core, Mirage has low numbers, I’m not arguing with that, I just assumed the numbers would be buffed.
2) I disagree that Mirage is worse at dodging and attacking, since it literally does that better with the new dodge mechanic on top of what mes already has. will say that it’s got worse mobility than Mesmer though.
1) The mechanics are fundementally broken. Unless they buff the numbers up so Mirage axe is some auto attacking beast and you ignore most of what the elite spec offers but even then you will just end up a worse DD.
2) It adds no new ways to play. Mesmer provides ways to avoid damage while still attacking and then has dodges for when you need to move away from where you are. Mirage takes those dodges away.
Tempest was supposed to be a support spec but it failed pretty horribly, so they upped the damage and it became a straight upgrade to damage while also giving more supportive options. :/
I dont recal them buffing its dmg. Also its not a bad support hell its pretty great as a support it just doesnt give a 10% dmg buff. And know they ruined it dmg capabilities (well ruined, the thing is still top dps on larg hitboxes) and now its seen more clearly as a support
Oh I’m sorry I missed the part where you can dodge mid cast without interrupting as well as the part of Mirage that disallows them to use signets, sword, and the domination line.
The whole point of giving us a worse dodge is so we can carry on attacking while dodging. Mesmer provides better tools to do it. Mirage is pointless.
No need to be so confrontational.
Mesmer doesn’t give us better tools to do it though since we can use all of those tools while also having the tools the Mirage has, that’s what my post was saying.
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class, the only thing it takes away is the short roll from dodging, but if you really need that mobility you can trade out your elite for jaunt.
Mirage also takes an entire traitline and replaces it with a completely worthless one that has no throughput or group support traits outside the single two grandmasters.
So, yes, you are most definitely losing something by taking Mirage.
You’re not directly losing something it’s opportunity cost, this wasn’t an argument over “what’s better at support Mirage or Mesmer?” This was “Mesmer is better at evading while attacking” which is blatantly false. If your goal is to be offensive while being hard to hit you’d want Mirage over base Mesmer, and for that role you sacrifice very little.
That’s not what you said though. you exactly said:
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class
and in this case that is untrue since you can’t take 3 core traitlines with mirage thus you are effectively not able to use all your core abilities. Mirage is competing for a traitline slot and is barely better than the core trailines, which is the actual problem here.
Mirage does not prevent him from taking sword, signers, or the domination line as my original quote was talking about. But nice try.
And the elite specs really shouldn’t be that much stronger than the core specs, they should give a different playstyle, not an upgrade, just as Anet said they wanted it to be. The problem is they kittened up balance wise on the first batch and now everyone thinks elite specs are supposed to be a mandatory upgrade for you based on your role.
Well theres the problem isn’t it. You have two choices Durzlla
1) Elite Specs are better then core: Mirage is useless because its weaker then core Mesmer.
2) Elite Specs are sidegrades to core with new ways to play: Mesmer already has better tools to dodge while attacking, Mirage adds no new ways to play.
Still waiting for an answer to this.
Sorry, thought I had replied to this.
1) I fully agree with you if elite specs are supposed to be better than core, Mirage has low numbers, I’m not arguing with that, I just assumed the numbers would be buffed.
2) I disagree that Mirage is worse at dodging and attacking, since it literally does that better with the new dodge mechanic on top of what mes already has. will say that it’s got worse mobility than Mesmer though.
1) The mechanics are fundementally broken. Unless they buff the numbers up so Mirage axe is some auto attacking beast and you ignore most of what the elite spec offers but even then you will just end up a worse DD.
2) It adds no new ways to play. Mesmer provides ways to avoid damage while still attacking and then has dodges for when you need to move away from where you are. Mirage takes those dodges away.
The mobility of mirage is higher lmao. Also mesmer has 2 ways to avoid dmg and 1 of them forces you do use a specific skill which locks you in a specific action (exluding blocks because im talking about evade like effects).
Have you tested condi mirage dps doe??
In what way?
In an actual isntanced pve way where you have set buffs and a set rotation.
Have you tested condi mirage dps doe??
In what way?
In an actual isntanced pve way where you have set buffs and a set rotation.
I think you know the answer to that, but numerically it’s very similar to a Scepter Condi Mes. The DPS is almost the exact same because the third auto gives does more damage than the third Scepter auto, but the first and second Scepter auto do more than the Axes. Additionally, you spam Confusing Images on Scepter for bonus Confusion, but spamming both Axes of Symmetry and Lingering Thoughts don’t increase your damage by nearly as much. Axes of Symmetry adds a good amount of Confusion, but it takes longer than the 0.75s to get out because you still have to leap afterwards. Lingering Thoughts is the huge hitter of the Axe set, but it will spawn a clone in PvE scenarios making is less desirable for sustained damage output (although the whirl makes it great for dungeons since things die fast if you play properly).
As for everything else about the spec, you’re adding a few utilities that are going to make negligible differences (notably Sand Shards for bonus dps), and Ambushes are not worthwhile to focus on, even on Scepter. You do get more stats than a typical Chaos setup, but that’s the only redeeming factor. You get slightly more stats (~85). Wowie. Of course, if you don’t have Vigor, you have slightly less stats (~65).
and? Where does it say that this Elite spec should out damage a core spec and out evade another?
Elite specs are not meant to be far superior than other core specs, so yes, probably another core spec has more evades, another has more damage, Elite specs are meant to open more options and diversity, not give you an overpowered version of other core specs.Pro tip: If you like Blurred Frenzy that much, just use it when specced into Mirage??
Elite specs are supposed to be pure upgrades to the core specializations and side grades to each other. They’ve said that multiple times.
Literally all of the generation 1 elite specs are flat upgrades to core specializations with the exception of scrapper, which is still a flat upgrade to engineer in PvP.
It’s absurd to say the Daredevil is not a direct upgrade to the thief’s evasion capabilities. Or that Berserker isn’t a flat upgrade to a warrior’s damage, condition damage, and ability to pump out burst skills. Or that the Chronomancer isn’t a direct upgrade to mesmer’s team support capabilities and defensive capabilities.
Again, the Elite Specs are supposed to be stronger than core specs. They just aren’t meant to stronger than other elite specs.
Actually, after the adrenaline change last patch, core war is par with berserker war IMO. Which is great.
Personally I think core guard is better than DH.
Actually, after the adrenaline change last patch, core war is par with berserker war IMO. Which is great.
Personally I think core guard is better than DH.
Both for spvp at best, please note the game mode you are making statements about since the usuall game mode on the non pvp forum is pve.
As far as pve, that statement is so far from the truth it hurts.
Oh I’m sorry I missed the part where you can dodge mid cast without interrupting as well as the part of Mirage that disallows them to use signets, sword, and the domination line.
The whole point of giving us a worse dodge is so we can carry on attacking while dodging. Mesmer provides better tools to do it. Mirage is pointless.
No need to be so confrontational.
Mesmer doesn’t give us better tools to do it though since we can use all of those tools while also having the tools the Mirage has, that’s what my post was saying.
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class, the only thing it takes away is the short roll from dodging, but if you really need that mobility you can trade out your elite for jaunt.
Mirage also takes an entire traitline and replaces it with a completely worthless one that has no throughput or group support traits outside the single two grandmasters.
So, yes, you are most definitely losing something by taking Mirage.
You’re not directly losing something it’s opportunity cost, this wasn’t an argument over “what’s better at support Mirage or Mesmer?” This was “Mesmer is better at evading while attacking” which is blatantly false. If your goal is to be offensive while being hard to hit you’d want Mirage over base Mesmer, and for that role you sacrifice very little.
That’s not what you said though. you exactly said:
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class
and in this case that is untrue since you can’t take 3 core traitlines with mirage thus you are effectively not able to use all your core abilities. Mirage is competing for a traitline slot and is barely better than the core trailines, which is the actual problem here.
Mirage does not prevent him from taking sword, signers, or the domination line as my original quote was talking about. But nice try.
And the elite specs really shouldn’t be that much stronger than the core specs, they should give a different playstyle, not an upgrade, just as Anet said they wanted it to be. The problem is they kittened up balance wise on the first batch and now everyone thinks elite specs are supposed to be a mandatory upgrade for you based on your role.
Well theres the problem isn’t it. You have two choices Durzlla
1) Elite Specs are better then core: Mirage is useless because its weaker then core Mesmer.
2) Elite Specs are sidegrades to core with new ways to play: Mesmer already has better tools to dodge while attacking, Mirage adds no new ways to play.
Still waiting for an answer to this.
Sorry, thought I had replied to this.
1) I fully agree with you if elite specs are supposed to be better than core, Mirage has low numbers, I’m not arguing with that, I just assumed the numbers would be buffed.
2) I disagree that Mirage is worse at dodging and attacking, since it literally does that better with the new dodge mechanic on top of what mes already has. will say that it’s got worse mobility than Mesmer though.
1) The mechanics are fundementally broken. Unless they buff the numbers up so Mirage axe is some auto attacking beast and you ignore most of what the elite spec offers but even then you will just end up a worse DD.
2) It adds no new ways to play. Mesmer provides ways to avoid damage while still attacking and then has dodges for when you need to move away from where you are. Mirage takes those dodges away.
The mobility of mirage is higher lmao. Also mesmer has 2 ways to avoid dmg and 1 of them forces you do use a specific skill which locks you in a specific action (exluding blocks because im talking about evade like effects).
The mobility of mirage might be higher, but the in combat damage avoidance is worse compared to core mesmer. Which of both is more important do you think?
Mesmer has tons of ways of avoiding damage. If you are refering to dodging (an action which the entire game and every class is balanced and designed around the way it is implemented normaly) then no, mirage does not provide an upgrade, this was disscussed often enough in this thread. The reasons why it’s worse as mirage were given and not yet refuted so simply stating “it’s better” provides no value to the disscussion.
Not saying Mirage is better than chrono, but the same thing literally happens for Druid, you’re allowed to play as. DPS ranger just like you’d be allowed to play as a Mirage, because you’re not competing for the same role as a chrono, just like a dps ranger isn’t competing for the Druids role so one being better than the other is irrelevant.
Will the group likely have a chrono AND Druid? Absolutely, does that suddenly mean Mirage and condi Druid can never be played because they’re arguably worse than Druid/chrono? No, because their goal is different, it’s to kill things, where Druid and chrono are to buff.
There’s a reason DPS Druid is ran, and it’s not ran for nearly the same reasons you’d bring a Mirage…
Grace of the Land
Spotter
Frost Spirit
Sun Spirit
Glyph of EmpowermentThey offer wayyy too much support and can still bring near as much damage as Condi Ranger. The heals on Condi Druid are pitiful and it’s really only a good option if you’re confident in your groups damage output (see: static Fractal groups), otherwise you’re better off going Healing Druid to maintain Scholar on your DPS’.
Mirage (and Chrono) do not offer this same “fire and forget” attitude. Mirage offers nothing new in terms of utility, and the damage output is abysmal compared to core Mesmer. Axe itself is fighting with core Mesmer issues because all of the weapon skills are damage skills, but you can’t cast Axe2 with 3 Phants out. Sure, you can still run Reflects, but you’re not any better at reflecting, so why run Mirage?
Chrono can’t maintain Quickness and Alacrity while dealing high DPS (you’re looking at a peak of 1/3 your teammates dps if you run full zerk in a realistic raid). You can run DPS Chrono, but then you aren’t outputting any Quickness and your Alacrity is pretty horrid, meaning you’re just filling a DPS slot instead of meshing two roles (this is due to how low Quickness durations we give without Concentration).
If you wanted to kill things, I would recommend not running Mirage, as the condi dps gained is minimal and still puts it behind Power Mesmer.
Actually, DPS Druids damage is not even in the same ballpark as a dps ranger if they’re maintaining grace of the land, it’s more like the reason you’d run a zerker chrono over a tank chrono, to squeeze out as much damage as physically possible while still providing the support. You would never want to bring a DPS Druid over any other DPS role, and if your team actually needs the healing you’d much rather have a full on support Druid cause the damage Druids not gonna cut it.
In order for a druid to maintain grace of the lands he needs to be building astral force quick enough (IE healing) to be able to go into it off alacrity CD while also activating glyphs with the trait while you’re in the base Druid form so the buff gets refreshed, if you’re doing this as a DPS build you don’t run staff, and you probably only have one or two glyphs which drastically hinders your ability to maintain the buff and will result in you being unable to do it and thus is why 2 Druids are brought instead of just one.
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
Oh I’m sorry I missed the part where you can dodge mid cast without interrupting as well as the part of Mirage that disallows them to use signets, sword, and the domination line.
The whole point of giving us a worse dodge is so we can carry on attacking while dodging. Mesmer provides better tools to do it. Mirage is pointless.
No need to be so confrontational.
Mesmer doesn’t give us better tools to do it though since we can use all of those tools while also having the tools the Mirage has, that’s what my post was saying.
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class, the only thing it takes away is the short roll from dodging, but if you really need that mobility you can trade out your elite for jaunt.
Mirage also takes an entire traitline and replaces it with a completely worthless one that has no throughput or group support traits outside the single two grandmasters.
So, yes, you are most definitely losing something by taking Mirage.
You’re not directly losing something it’s opportunity cost, this wasn’t an argument over “what’s better at support Mirage or Mesmer?” This was “Mesmer is better at evading while attacking” which is blatantly false. If your goal is to be offensive while being hard to hit you’d want Mirage over base Mesmer, and for that role you sacrifice very little.
That’s not what you said though. you exactly said:
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class
and in this case that is untrue since you can’t take 3 core traitlines with mirage thus you are effectively not able to use all your core abilities. Mirage is competing for a traitline slot and is barely better than the core trailines, which is the actual problem here.
Mirage does not prevent him from taking sword, signers, or the domination line as my original quote was talking about. But nice try.
And the elite specs really shouldn’t be that much stronger than the core specs, they should give a different playstyle, not an upgrade, just as Anet said they wanted it to be. The problem is they kittened up balance wise on the first batch and now everyone thinks elite specs are supposed to be a mandatory upgrade for you based on your role.
Well theres the problem isn’t it. You have two choices Durzlla
1) Elite Specs are better then core: Mirage is useless because its weaker then core Mesmer.
2) Elite Specs are sidegrades to core with new ways to play: Mesmer already has better tools to dodge while attacking, Mirage adds no new ways to play.
Still waiting for an answer to this.
Sorry, thought I had replied to this.
1) I fully agree with you if elite specs are supposed to be better than core, Mirage has low numbers, I’m not arguing with that, I just assumed the numbers would be buffed.
2) I disagree that Mirage is worse at dodging and attacking, since it literally does that better with the new dodge mechanic on top of what mes already has. will say that it’s got worse mobility than Mesmer though.
1) The mechanics are fundementally broken. Unless they buff the numbers up so Mirage axe is some auto attacking beast and you ignore most of what the elite spec offers but even then you will just end up a worse DD.
2) It adds no new ways to play. Mesmer provides ways to avoid damage while still attacking and then has dodges for when you need to move away from where you are. Mirage takes those dodges away.
Mesmer provides a way to attack while dodging (distortion), and I suppose blurred frenzy, but a mirage allows you to evade during literally any action you’re doing, which would mean every single attack it performs can work like blurred frenzy, or as if you had distortion on. Which means it does it straight up better than core Mesmer, as a tradeoff it loses the mobility of dodging, but does gain the ambush skills for a little burst, and the deception skills which add a ton of mobility to make up for what you lost should you choose to take it.
With mirage you’re literally choosing to have evades whenever you want + a sort of “counter attack” via ambushes at the cost of either group support or mobility. If elite specs are meant to be side grades I think it’s perfectly fine, clearly you don’t like the playstyle and what mirage has to offer but you don’t need to, and shouldn’t be forced to have to play the elite spec and that new playstyle just because it’s new and DPs oriented.
The problem isn’t how Mirage is structured mechanically, the problem is that some of the numbers are low in addition to people expecting Mirage to sky rocket Mesmer into high DPS roles. And now they’re upset because that didn’t happen, and they don’t like giving up the mobility on dodge.
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
The problem isn’t how Mirage is structured mechanically,
No, that is the kittening problem. Base Mesmer has the problem of Shatters vs Phantasms. Instead of doing a single thing to change this with the elite, like they have done with elite specs for other classes, they completly ignored the class mechanics, no new f skills, no changing the f skills, no change to phantasm summoning skills. Nothing. Instead they just replace our dodge with a worse one and add these stupid mirror things that were obviously never going to work and they were already told were never going to work when similar mechanics were ignored by other classes for being useless.
You keep ignoring this but MIRAGE ADDS NO NEW WAYS TO PLAY, I know you are ignoring it because you can’t deny it but I’ll say it again. Taking away dodges to give you a new way of doing something Mesmer can already do is not a new way to play.
They can buff the numbers all they want but you will still end up with a worse dodge, a mirror mechanic that works against the supposed benefits of this worse dodge, all the problems of core Mesmer and no new ways to play.
(edited by Levetty.1279)
Actually, DPS Druids damage is not even in the same ballpark as a dps ranger if they’re maintaining grace of the land, it’s more like the reason you’d run a zerker chrono over a tank chrono, to squeeze out as much damage as physically possible while still providing the support. You would never want to bring a DPS Druid over any other DPS role, and if your team actually needs the healing you’d much rather have a full on support Druid cause the damage Druids not gonna cut it.
In order for a druid to maintain grace of the lands he needs to be building astral force quick enough (IE healing) to be able to go into it off alacrity CD while also activating glyphs with the trait while you’re in the base Druid form so the buff gets refreshed, if you’re doing this as a DPS build you don’t run staff, and you probably only have one or two glyphs which drastically hinders your ability to maintain the buff and will result in you being unable to do it and thus is why 2 Druids are brought instead of just one.
DPS Druid is for Fractals where you’d rather have damage than heals unless you don’t trust your group. I wouldn’t bring a DPS Druid into a raid, because you have so many people with thumbs up their…
Also, the damage difference between Minstrel and Zerk Chrono vs Magi and Viper Druid is a huge difference. Obviously, the DPS Druid is going to have less damage than a Viper Ranger, but that difference is also a lot smaller than the difference between a Zerk Chrono (Boonbot) and a Zerk Mesmer/Chrono (DPS).
Actually, DPS Druids damage is not even in the same ballpark as a dps ranger if they’re maintaining grace of the land, it’s more like the reason you’d run a zerker chrono over a tank chrono, to squeeze out as much damage as physically possible while still providing the support. You would never want to bring a DPS Druid over any other DPS role, and if your team actually needs the healing you’d much rather have a full on support Druid cause the damage Druids not gonna cut it.
In order for a druid to maintain grace of the lands he needs to be building astral force quick enough (IE healing) to be able to go into it off alacrity CD while also activating glyphs with the trait while you’re in the base Druid form so the buff gets refreshed, if you’re doing this as a DPS build you don’t run staff, and you probably only have one or two glyphs which drastically hinders your ability to maintain the buff and will result in you being unable to do it and thus is why 2 Druids are brought instead of just one.
DPS Druid is for Fractals where you’d rather have damage than heals unless you don’t trust your group. I wouldn’t bring a DPS Druid into a raid, because you have so many people with thumbs up their…
Also, the damage difference between Minstrel and Zerk Chrono vs Magi and Viper Druid is a huge difference. Obviously, the DPS Druid is going to have less damage than a Viper Ranger, but that difference is also a lot smaller than the difference between a Zerk Chrono (Boonbot) and a Zerk Mesmer/Chrono (DPS).
That’s fair, that’s mainly because the chrono, even as zerk, needs to go with some boon duration no matter what, where the Condi Druid is literally the same gear as a condi ranger, just using different skills, and traits and spending time in the avatar state.
It also doesn’t help that Mesmer damage isn’t that great to begin with because of how bursty the class is as a whole, I feel like Mesmer could be way better in raids if there were legit burn phases where the Mesmer could just unload everything when they’re vulnerable and let their spikey game style get more mileage. I mean sure, there’s phantasms for sustain, and that builds pretty good, but our condi doesn’t have that sorta luxury.
Also, has anyone tested our condi builds damage after torment and confusion have been reworked in PvE?
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
The problem isn’t how Mirage is structured mechanically,
No, that is the kittening problem. Base Mesmer has the problem of Shatters vs Phantasms. Instead of doing a single thing to change this with the elite, like they have done with elite specs for other classes, they completly ignored the class mechanics, no new f skills, no changing the f skills, no change to phantasm summoning skills. Nothing. Instead they just replace our dodge with a worse one and add these stupid mirror things that were obviously never going to work and they were already told were never going to work when similar mechanics were ignored by other classes for being useless.
You keep ignoring this but MIRAGE ADDS NO NEW WAYS TO PLAY, I know you are ignoring it because you can’t deny it but I’ll say it again. Taking away dodges to give you a new way of doing something Mesmer can already do is not a new way to play.
They can buff the numbers all they want but you will still end up with a worse dodge, a mirror mechanic that works against the supposed benefits of this worse dodge, all the problems of core Mesmer and no new ways to play.
You also ignore the ambush skillies consistently, I thought Mirage played significantly differently than Mesmer and actually enjoyed the change in play style.
The ambush skills with the illusionary horizon already made the playstyle very different than base Mesmer by wanting Mirage to focus more on having clones and pretending to be the clone than to spawn phantasms for your damage.
Both the Axe and the deception skills had ways of breaking targeting on the enemies without using stealth which is also something different, and the only real problem with the mirrors is that they exist in the world for way too short and they’re too obvious for enemies to punish you for trying to go to if you’re not using jaunt, and also makes it very obvious you’re the Mesmer since you go bolting to the mirror.
What it sounds like to me is you have no grasp of mirage and just keep complaining it does nothing new despite that being wrong. It’s obvious that’s the case when you keep hringing up blurred frenzy as an example of base Mesmer attacking while evading better than Mirage despite Mirage being able to evade through any action.
They sing dark, delicious notes about power and family.
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
As their mother, I have to grant them their wish. – Forever Fyonna
It also doesn’t help that Mesmer damage isn’t that great to begin with because of how bursty the class is as a whole, I feel like Mesmer could be way better in raids if there were legit burn phases where the Mesmer could just unload everything when they’re vulnerable and let their spikey game style get more mileage.
You hwot. Burn phases hurt condi builds more than power builds. Also “Mesmer spikey gamestyle”’s burst is about the same as other professions sustained DPS.
I mean sure, there’s phantasms for sustain, and that builds pretty good, but our condi doesn’t have that sorta luxury.
Also, has anyone tested our condi builds damage after torment and confusion have been reworked in PvE?
At best (boss doesn’t move or use abilities), it increases our DPS by <25%. At worst (boss moves and uses abilities), it does nothing.
You also ignore the ambush skillies consistently, I thought Mirage played significantly differently than Mesmer and actually enjoyed the change in play style.
The entire thread is about attacking when dodging wtf are you on about?
Both the Axe and the deception skills had ways of breaking targeting on the enemies without using stealth which is also something different,
Breaking targeting is not a new way of playing the class whether stealth is involved or not. wtf are you on about?
Both the Axe and the deception skills had ways of breaking targeting on the enemies without using stealth which is also something different, and the only real problem with the mirrors is that they exist in the world for way too short and they’re too obvious for enemies to punish you for trying to go to if you’re not using jaunt, and also makes it very obvious you’re the Mesmer since you go bolting to the mirror.
“The only real problem with mirrors is all those mechanical problems which makes them useless and will never be decent just like when the mechanic is used on other classes”
Yes that is what I said, thanks for agreeing with me.
What it sounds like to me is you have no grasp of mirage and just keep complaining it does nothing new despite that being wrong. It’s obvious that’s the case when you keep hringing up blurred frenzy as an example of base Mesmer attacking while evading better than Mirage despite Mirage being able to evade through any action.
What it sounds like to me is you have no grasp of the basics of the game. It’s obvious that’s the case when you think blurred frenzy isn’t an attack while evading, you think bleed from clones is a noteworthy source of damage in power builds, you don’t know Mesmers can distort through any action and you can’t see that most of the other elite specs are clearly stronger then thier base classes.
(edited by Levetty.1279)
Actually, after the adrenaline change last patch, core war is par with berserker war IMO. Which is great.
Personally I think core guard is better than DH.
Both for spvp at best, please note the game mode you are making statements about since the usuall game mode on the non pvp forum is pve.
As far as pve, that statement is so far from the truth it hurts.
Oh I’m sorry I missed the part where you can dodge mid cast without interrupting as well as the part of Mirage that disallows them to use signets, sword, and the domination line.
The whole point of giving us a worse dodge is so we can carry on attacking while dodging. Mesmer provides better tools to do it. Mirage is pointless.
No need to be so confrontational.
Mesmer doesn’t give us better tools to do it though since we can use all of those tools while also having the tools the Mirage has, that’s what my post was saying.
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class, the only thing it takes away is the short roll from dodging, but if you really need that mobility you can trade out your elite for jaunt.
Mirage also takes an entire traitline and replaces it with a completely worthless one that has no throughput or group support traits outside the single two grandmasters.
So, yes, you are most definitely losing something by taking Mirage.
You’re not directly losing something it’s opportunity cost, this wasn’t an argument over “what’s better at support Mirage or Mesmer?” This was “Mesmer is better at evading while attacking” which is blatantly false. If your goal is to be offensive while being hard to hit you’d want Mirage over base Mesmer, and for that role you sacrifice very little.
That’s not what you said though. you exactly said:
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class
and in this case that is untrue since you can’t take 3 core traitlines with mirage thus you are effectively not able to use all your core abilities. Mirage is competing for a traitline slot and is barely better than the core trailines, which is the actual problem here.
Mirage does not prevent him from taking sword, signers, or the domination line as my original quote was talking about. But nice try.
And the elite specs really shouldn’t be that much stronger than the core specs, they should give a different playstyle, not an upgrade, just as Anet said they wanted it to be. The problem is they kittened up balance wise on the first batch and now everyone thinks elite specs are supposed to be a mandatory upgrade for you based on your role.
Well theres the problem isn’t it. You have two choices Durzlla
1) Elite Specs are better then core: Mirage is useless because its weaker then core Mesmer.
2) Elite Specs are sidegrades to core with new ways to play: Mesmer already has better tools to dodge while attacking, Mirage adds no new ways to play.
Still waiting for an answer to this.
Sorry, thought I had replied to this.
1) I fully agree with you if elite specs are supposed to be better than core, Mirage has low numbers, I’m not arguing with that, I just assumed the numbers would be buffed.
2) I disagree that Mirage is worse at dodging and attacking, since it literally does that better with the new dodge mechanic on top of what mes already has. will say that it’s got worse mobility than Mesmer though.
1) The mechanics are fundementally broken. Unless they buff the numbers up so Mirage axe is some auto attacking beast and you ignore most of what the elite spec offers but even then you will just end up a worse DD.
2) It adds no new ways to play. Mesmer provides ways to avoid damage while still attacking and then has dodges for when you need to move away from where you are. Mirage takes those dodges away.
The mobility of mirage is higher lmao. Also mesmer has 2 ways to avoid dmg and 1 of them forces you do use a specific skill which locks you in a specific action (exluding blocks because im talking about evade like effects).
The mobility of mirage might be higher, but the in combat damage avoidance is worse compared to core mesmer. Which of both is more important do you think?
Mesmer has tons of ways of avoiding damage. If you are refering to dodging (an action which the entire game and every class is balanced and designed around the way it is implemented normaly) then no, mirage does not provide an upgrade, this was disscussed often enough in this thread. The reasons why it’s worse as mirage were given and not yet refuted so simply stating “it’s better” provides no value to the disscussion.
What does mirage lose in dmg avoidance compaired to core memser?
Actually, after the adrenaline change last patch, core war is par with berserker war IMO. Which is great.
Personally I think core guard is better than DH.
Both for spvp at best, please note the game mode you are making statements about since the usuall game mode on the non pvp forum is pve.
As far as pve, that statement is so far from the truth it hurts.
Oh I’m sorry I missed the part where you can dodge mid cast without interrupting as well as the part of Mirage that disallows them to use signets, sword, and the domination line.
The whole point of giving us a worse dodge is so we can carry on attacking while dodging. Mesmer provides better tools to do it. Mirage is pointless.
No need to be so confrontational.
Mesmer doesn’t give us better tools to do it though since we can use all of those tools while also having the tools the Mirage has, that’s what my post was saying.
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class, the only thing it takes away is the short roll from dodging, but if you really need that mobility you can trade out your elite for jaunt.
Mirage also takes an entire traitline and replaces it with a completely worthless one that has no throughput or group support traits outside the single two grandmasters.
So, yes, you are most definitely losing something by taking Mirage.
You’re not directly losing something it’s opportunity cost, this wasn’t an argument over “what’s better at support Mirage or Mesmer?” This was “Mesmer is better at evading while attacking” which is blatantly false. If your goal is to be offensive while being hard to hit you’d want Mirage over base Mesmer, and for that role you sacrifice very little.
That’s not what you said though. you exactly said:
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class
and in this case that is untrue since you can’t take 3 core traitlines with mirage thus you are effectively not able to use all your core abilities. Mirage is competing for a traitline slot and is barely better than the core trailines, which is the actual problem here.
Mirage does not prevent him from taking sword, signers, or the domination line as my original quote was talking about. But nice try.
And the elite specs really shouldn’t be that much stronger than the core specs, they should give a different playstyle, not an upgrade, just as Anet said they wanted it to be. The problem is they kittened up balance wise on the first batch and now everyone thinks elite specs are supposed to be a mandatory upgrade for you based on your role.
Well theres the problem isn’t it. You have two choices Durzlla
1) Elite Specs are better then core: Mirage is useless because its weaker then core Mesmer.
2) Elite Specs are sidegrades to core with new ways to play: Mesmer already has better tools to dodge while attacking, Mirage adds no new ways to play.
Still waiting for an answer to this.
Sorry, thought I had replied to this.
1) I fully agree with you if elite specs are supposed to be better than core, Mirage has low numbers, I’m not arguing with that, I just assumed the numbers would be buffed.
2) I disagree that Mirage is worse at dodging and attacking, since it literally does that better with the new dodge mechanic on top of what mes already has. will say that it’s got worse mobility than Mesmer though.
1) The mechanics are fundementally broken. Unless they buff the numbers up so Mirage axe is some auto attacking beast and you ignore most of what the elite spec offers but even then you will just end up a worse DD.
2) It adds no new ways to play. Mesmer provides ways to avoid damage while still attacking and then has dodges for when you need to move away from where you are. Mirage takes those dodges away.
The mobility of mirage is higher lmao. Also mesmer has 2 ways to avoid dmg and 1 of them forces you do use a specific skill which locks you in a specific action (exluding blocks because im talking about evade like effects).
The mobility of mirage might be higher, but the in combat damage avoidance is worse compared to core mesmer. Which of both is more important do you think?
Mesmer has tons of ways of avoiding damage. If you are refering to dodging (an action which the entire game and every class is balanced and designed around the way it is implemented normaly) then no, mirage does not provide an upgrade, this was disscussed often enough in this thread. The reasons why it’s worse as mirage were given and not yet refuted so simply stating “it’s better” provides no value to the disscussion.
What does mirage lose in dmg avoidance compaired to core memser?
Repositioning.
This seems like an extremely inane thing to me. The mirage isn’t a staff tempest. It doesn’t have long channels that get interrupted by having to dodge constantly.
I don’t have opinions. I only have facts I can’t adequately prove.
This seems like an extremely inane thing to me. The mirage isn’t a staff tempest. It doesn’t have long channels that get interrupted by having to dodge constantly.
I mean I get what they were going for:
- Extra access to dodges, slippery, difficult to hit.
- Gain (some) extra damage out of dodging due to the ambush skills.
- In return (as a balancing measure), lose movement on dodge.
That seems to be the on-paper design. It fails, on all accounts:
1. There isn’t much access to dodge. If at least all uses of deception skills places 1-2 mirrors, that’d be something. Or shattering phantasms did, by default.
2. Other than scepter, I wish Ambush didn’t overwrite the #1 button because frankly I’d rather AA. It’s not worth the tiny gain. Remove Infinite Horizon and make the skills deal 4x-5x the output of an AA, so it’s at least some damage gain.
3. This is fine, if the other two things are fixed.
But, as always, I’d go for a minimal fix:
- Mirrors now last 12 seconds.
- Illusionary Ambush spawns a mirror where you started.
- Same for Mirage Advance.
- Same for Jaunt, which does it every charge.
- Sand Through Glass leaves a second mirror halfway through the dodge distance.
That at least gives us some decent access to mirrors.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Actually, after the adrenaline change last patch, core war is par with berserker war IMO. Which is great.
Personally I think core guard is better than DH.
Both for spvp at best, please note the game mode you are making statements about since the usuall game mode on the non pvp forum is pve.
As far as pve, that statement is so far from the truth it hurts.
Oh I’m sorry I missed the part where you can dodge mid cast without interrupting as well as the part of Mirage that disallows them to use signets, sword, and the domination line.
The whole point of giving us a worse dodge is so we can carry on attacking while dodging. Mesmer provides better tools to do it. Mirage is pointless.
No need to be so confrontational.
Mesmer doesn’t give us better tools to do it though since we can use all of those tools while also having the tools the Mirage has, that’s what my post was saying.
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class, the only thing it takes away is the short roll from dodging, but if you really need that mobility you can trade out your elite for jaunt.
Mirage also takes an entire traitline and replaces it with a completely worthless one that has no throughput or group support traits outside the single two grandmasters.
So, yes, you are most definitely losing something by taking Mirage.
You’re not directly losing something it’s opportunity cost, this wasn’t an argument over “what’s better at support Mirage or Mesmer?” This was “Mesmer is better at evading while attacking” which is blatantly false. If your goal is to be offensive while being hard to hit you’d want Mirage over base Mesmer, and for that role you sacrifice very little.
That’s not what you said though. you exactly said:
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class
and in this case that is untrue since you can’t take 3 core traitlines with mirage thus you are effectively not able to use all your core abilities. Mirage is competing for a traitline slot and is barely better than the core trailines, which is the actual problem here.
Mirage does not prevent him from taking sword, signers, or the domination line as my original quote was talking about. But nice try.
And the elite specs really shouldn’t be that much stronger than the core specs, they should give a different playstyle, not an upgrade, just as Anet said they wanted it to be. The problem is they kittened up balance wise on the first batch and now everyone thinks elite specs are supposed to be a mandatory upgrade for you based on your role.
Well theres the problem isn’t it. You have two choices Durzlla
1) Elite Specs are better then core: Mirage is useless because its weaker then core Mesmer.
2) Elite Specs are sidegrades to core with new ways to play: Mesmer already has better tools to dodge while attacking, Mirage adds no new ways to play.
Still waiting for an answer to this.
Sorry, thought I had replied to this.
1) I fully agree with you if elite specs are supposed to be better than core, Mirage has low numbers, I’m not arguing with that, I just assumed the numbers would be buffed.
2) I disagree that Mirage is worse at dodging and attacking, since it literally does that better with the new dodge mechanic on top of what mes already has. will say that it’s got worse mobility than Mesmer though.
1) The mechanics are fundementally broken. Unless they buff the numbers up so Mirage axe is some auto attacking beast and you ignore most of what the elite spec offers but even then you will just end up a worse DD.
2) It adds no new ways to play. Mesmer provides ways to avoid damage while still attacking and then has dodges for when you need to move away from where you are. Mirage takes those dodges away.
The mobility of mirage is higher lmao. Also mesmer has 2 ways to avoid dmg and 1 of them forces you do use a specific skill which locks you in a specific action (exluding blocks because im talking about evade like effects).
The mobility of mirage might be higher, but the in combat damage avoidance is worse compared to core mesmer. Which of both is more important do you think?
Mesmer has tons of ways of avoiding damage. If you are refering to dodging (an action which the entire game and every class is balanced and designed around the way it is implemented normaly) then no, mirage does not provide an upgrade, this was disscussed often enough in this thread. The reasons why it’s worse as mirage were given and not yet refuted so simply stating “it’s better” provides no value to the disscussion.
What does mirage lose in dmg avoidance compaired to core memser?
Repositioning.
How so? I can move just fine when i would dodge with mirage. Maybe you experienced a bug or something.
This seems like an extremely inane thing to me. The mirage isn’t a staff tempest. It doesn’t have long channels that get interrupted by having to dodge constantly.
I mean I get what they were going for:
- Extra access to dodges, slippery, difficult to hit.
- Gain (some) extra damage out of dodging due to the ambush skills.
- In return (as a balancing measure), lose movement on dodge.
That seems to be the on-paper design. It fails, on all accounts:
1. There isn’t much access to dodge. If at least all uses of deception skills places 1-2 mirrors, that’d be something. Or shattering phantasms did, by default.
2. Other than scepter, I wish Ambush didn’t overwrite the #1 button because frankly I’d rather AA. It’s not worth the tiny gain. Remove Infinite Horizon and make the skills deal 4x-5x the output of an AA, so it’s at least some damage gain.
3. This is fine, if the other two things are fixed.But, as always, I’d go for a minimal fix:
- Mirrors now last 12 seconds.
- Illusionary Ambush spawns a mirror where you started.
- Same for Mirage Advance.
- Same for Jaunt, which does it every charge.
- Sand Through Glass leaves a second mirror halfway through the dodge distance.
That at least gives us some decent access to mirrors.
Theres no need for really long durr on mirrors if all the utils that provide mirrors namely the back dodge the aoe thingy and the heal all had a second skill that shadowsteps you to that mirror. And maybe an f5 that teleports you to mirrors left by your phantasms.
Actually, after the adrenaline change last patch, core war is par with berserker war IMO. Which is great.
Personally I think core guard is better than DH.
Both for spvp at best, please note the game mode you are making statements about since the usuall game mode on the non pvp forum is pve.
As far as pve, that statement is so far from the truth it hurts.
Oh I’m sorry I missed the part where you can dodge mid cast without interrupting as well as the part of Mirage that disallows them to use signets, sword, and the domination line.
The whole point of giving us a worse dodge is so we can carry on attacking while dodging. Mesmer provides better tools to do it. Mirage is pointless.
No need to be so confrontational.
Mesmer doesn’t give us better tools to do it though since we can use all of those tools while also having the tools the Mirage has, that’s what my post was saying.
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class, the only thing it takes away is the short roll from dodging, but if you really need that mobility you can trade out your elite for jaunt.
Mirage also takes an entire traitline and replaces it with a completely worthless one that has no throughput or group support traits outside the single two grandmasters.
So, yes, you are most definitely losing something by taking Mirage.
You’re not directly losing something it’s opportunity cost, this wasn’t an argument over “what’s better at support Mirage or Mesmer?” This was “Mesmer is better at evading while attacking” which is blatantly false. If your goal is to be offensive while being hard to hit you’d want Mirage over base Mesmer, and for that role you sacrifice very little.
That’s not what you said though. you exactly said:
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class
and in this case that is untrue since you can’t take 3 core traitlines with mirage thus you are effectively not able to use all your core abilities. Mirage is competing for a traitline slot and is barely better than the core trailines, which is the actual problem here.
Mirage does not prevent him from taking sword, signers, or the domination line as my original quote was talking about. But nice try.
And the elite specs really shouldn’t be that much stronger than the core specs, they should give a different playstyle, not an upgrade, just as Anet said they wanted it to be. The problem is they kittened up balance wise on the first batch and now everyone thinks elite specs are supposed to be a mandatory upgrade for you based on your role.
Well theres the problem isn’t it. You have two choices Durzlla
1) Elite Specs are better then core: Mirage is useless because its weaker then core Mesmer.
2) Elite Specs are sidegrades to core with new ways to play: Mesmer already has better tools to dodge while attacking, Mirage adds no new ways to play.
Still waiting for an answer to this.
Sorry, thought I had replied to this.
1) I fully agree with you if elite specs are supposed to be better than core, Mirage has low numbers, I’m not arguing with that, I just assumed the numbers would be buffed.
2) I disagree that Mirage is worse at dodging and attacking, since it literally does that better with the new dodge mechanic on top of what mes already has. will say that it’s got worse mobility than Mesmer though.
1) The mechanics are fundementally broken. Unless they buff the numbers up so Mirage axe is some auto attacking beast and you ignore most of what the elite spec offers but even then you will just end up a worse DD.
2) It adds no new ways to play. Mesmer provides ways to avoid damage while still attacking and then has dodges for when you need to move away from where you are. Mirage takes those dodges away.
The mobility of mirage is higher lmao. Also mesmer has 2 ways to avoid dmg and 1 of them forces you do use a specific skill which locks you in a specific action (exluding blocks because im talking about evade like effects).
The mobility of mirage might be higher, but the in combat damage avoidance is worse compared to core mesmer. Which of both is more important do you think?
Mesmer has tons of ways of avoiding damage. If you are refering to dodging (an action which the entire game and every class is balanced and designed around the way it is implemented normaly) then no, mirage does not provide an upgrade, this was disscussed often enough in this thread. The reasons why it’s worse as mirage were given and not yet refuted so simply stating “it’s better” provides no value to the disscussion.
What does mirage lose in dmg avoidance compaired to core memser?
Repositioning.
How so? I can move just fine when i would dodge with mirage. Maybe you experienced a bug or something.
Superspeed only affects walking forward. It does not affect sidestepping, or backpedaling.
Axes of Symmetry, Illusionary Ambush, and Mirage Advance don’t give you control over where you end.
Actually, after the adrenaline change last patch, core war is par with berserker war IMO. Which is great.
Personally I think core guard is better than DH.
Both for spvp at best, please note the game mode you are making statements about since the usuall game mode on the non pvp forum is pve.
As far as pve, that statement is so far from the truth it hurts.
Oh I’m sorry I missed the part where you can dodge mid cast without interrupting as well as the part of Mirage that disallows them to use signets, sword, and the domination line.
The whole point of giving us a worse dodge is so we can carry on attacking while dodging. Mesmer provides better tools to do it. Mirage is pointless.
No need to be so confrontational.
Mesmer doesn’t give us better tools to do it though since we can use all of those tools while also having the tools the Mirage has, that’s what my post was saying.
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class, the only thing it takes away is the short roll from dodging, but if you really need that mobility you can trade out your elite for jaunt.
Mirage also takes an entire traitline and replaces it with a completely worthless one that has no throughput or group support traits outside the single two grandmasters.
So, yes, you are most definitely losing something by taking Mirage.
You’re not directly losing something it’s opportunity cost, this wasn’t an argument over “what’s better at support Mirage or Mesmer?” This was “Mesmer is better at evading while attacking” which is blatantly false. If your goal is to be offensive while being hard to hit you’d want Mirage over base Mesmer, and for that role you sacrifice very little.
That’s not what you said though. you exactly said:
Mirage doesn’t prevent you from using ANY of those tools from the core class
and in this case that is untrue since you can’t take 3 core traitlines with mirage thus you are effectively not able to use all your core abilities. Mirage is competing for a traitline slot and is barely better than the core trailines, which is the actual problem here.
Mirage does not prevent him from taking sword, signers, or the domination line as my original quote was talking about. But nice try.
And the elite specs really shouldn’t be that much stronger than the core specs, they should give a different playstyle, not an upgrade, just as Anet said they wanted it to be. The problem is they kittened up balance wise on the first batch and now everyone thinks elite specs are supposed to be a mandatory upgrade for you based on your role.
Well theres the problem isn’t it. You have two choices Durzlla
1) Elite Specs are better then core: Mirage is useless because its weaker then core Mesmer.
2) Elite Specs are sidegrades to core with new ways to play: Mesmer already has better tools to dodge while attacking, Mirage adds no new ways to play.
Still waiting for an answer to this.
Sorry, thought I had replied to this.
1) I fully agree with you if elite specs are supposed to be better than core, Mirage has low numbers, I’m not arguing with that, I just assumed the numbers would be buffed.
2) I disagree that Mirage is worse at dodging and attacking, since it literally does that better with the new dodge mechanic on top of what mes already has. will say that it’s got worse mobility than Mesmer though.
1) The mechanics are fundementally broken. Unless they buff the numbers up so Mirage axe is some auto attacking beast and you ignore most of what the elite spec offers but even then you will just end up a worse DD.
2) It adds no new ways to play. Mesmer provides ways to avoid damage while still attacking and then has dodges for when you need to move away from where you are. Mirage takes those dodges away.
The mobility of mirage is higher lmao. Also mesmer has 2 ways to avoid dmg and 1 of them forces you do use a specific skill which locks you in a specific action (exluding blocks because im talking about evade like effects).
The mobility of mirage might be higher, but the in combat damage avoidance is worse compared to core mesmer. Which of both is more important do you think?
Mesmer has tons of ways of avoiding damage. If you are refering to dodging (an action which the entire game and every class is balanced and designed around the way it is implemented normaly) then no, mirage does not provide an upgrade, this was disscussed often enough in this thread. The reasons why it’s worse as mirage were given and not yet refuted so simply stating “it’s better” provides no value to the disscussion.
What does mirage lose in dmg avoidance compaired to core memser?
Repositioning.
How so? I can move just fine when i would dodge with mirage. Maybe you experienced a bug or something.
Superspeed only affects walking forward. It does not affect sidestepping, or backpedaling.
Axes of Symmetry, Illusionary Ambush, and Mirage Advance don’t give you control over where you end.
I suppose they could change the functionality of superspeed to afect all directions. As for axes of symetry they are still a movement tool alot of thinks dont really give you alot of freedom outside of the direction u are casting them.
Ah yes, the ole’ “moving is fine because you’re moving”. Our downed 2 is amazing, I agree.
Ah yes, the ole’ “moving is fine because you’re moving”. Our downed 2 is amazing, I agree.
Iirc axe 2 moves you on the direction u are looking at or the target’s location. Iirc downed 2 is a random reposition tool.
Speaking of mesmer downed 2 id like it to break target that way avenger wont kitten me over in fractals.
(edited by zealex.9410)