Guild Wars 2

Elitist.8701:

Sigh OK, lemme rephrase my question. What mesmer spec is there that isn’t hard countered by thieves, isn’t incredibly boring to play and is viable in PvP. NOT PU. ENOUGH ABOUT PU. I don’t care, even if it was viable, I would never play a stealth spam class.

4/4/6/0/0 using chaotic interruption – best viable mesmer build (that isn’t PU) to use against thieves, as Potato Plant was trying to point out.

Personally, I’d suggest a zerker-shatter build against thieves. They can hurt, but it’s a very high-risk/high-reward playstyle.

I play both thief and mesmer. Mesmer against thieves, it’s a lot of reading your opponent’s strategy. Mesmers lose out on thieves in terms of mobility. Try S/S and GS, and play around with traits. Since thieves have plenty of shadowsteps, this denies the GS from being effective in damage output – but it’s still great for CC.

(And, to fellow mesmers…thieves don’t have to be stealth spam. S/D thieves are more mobility/power setups. Thieves who spam stealth sometimes can’t do anything BUT spam stealth – pretty predictable in fights.)

victOry.3704:

Jedge.3619:

Good luck playing shatter in WvW and just get owned by thieves, eles or many other classes. You could call PU easy mode, and yes it is a crutch. Unfortunately, Mesmer needs PU to survive because of all the other stuff that is thrown at you. There are a lot of worse things out there then a PU mesmer – ex. Condi Thief

Playing shatter is pretty much about outplaying your enemy
Shatter is a build that requires patience and practice,so don’t blame the build if can’t handle it

Its not about handling the build. Its about rock paper scissors. Go up against a condi thief in dire gear and try to beat it as a shatter mesmer. Or try to fight another mesmer who uses PU. Burst guardian will also have a fun time with you. Shatter basically is a walking 10 second cannon. Incredibly easy to counter given the current meta.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRArc8dlknpRtlpxQNcrNSrxg6rOrMSFQpv4jqB-TlyCABAcgCS4kA4o6PipEMFNEXp87inAwIaQ8Z/B50PEA4AgvDkCAmJAA-w

In the end it all comes down to skill. So i fyou’re prone to qq, give up now.

Oh my god all the people saying PU is viable, Condi mes is viable, Phantasm Mes is viable…

None of these builds are viable in a tournament, it’s play a shatter as good as you can or don’t bring a Mesmer at the moment, which is unfortunate but true, these builds don’t bring enough to the table and get countered easily.

In hotjoin, play what you want. In soloq you could possibly get away with a phantasm build, but you wont have a strong burst and probably not as high mobility…but it could work. Teamq don’t bother until you are good with the class and the build. Stealth inherently counters the point capture game mode, and when a Mesmer has to bring Portal and Nullfield there isn’t much room for it where a blink would be better suited.

You have to outplay them, I beat some thieves all the time. If they suck, easy kill. If they’re good…I can pull a win out the bag. If they’re equally skilled and playing S/D…I just let my team handle them.

Elitist.8701:

What mesmer spec is there that isn’t hard countered by thieves, isn’t incredibly boring to play and is viable in PvP. I don’t care, even if it was viable, I would never play a stealth spam class.

Removed a part of your post because I won’t be answering it.
Regarding a spec that thieves can’t counter well → PU condi. No other spec does well against thieves. Learn to kite them properly in order to minimize the amount of damage they can do to you. That is all you can do if you want to be good against thieves but refuse to play PU. You need to accept that fact. Thieves are the perfect class to kill Mesmers and there is not much we can do about that except play PU or learn to kite to minimize the damage a thief can do to you in a glass build.

The boring part is not for us to judge. You know what is boring to you and what isn’t.
PU is fun to some people.

Regarding stealth spam class, you don’t understand the pun there, if it can be called a pun.
Thieves are a class that have a lot of stealth, so why are you playing a thief?
You could tell me that you can play a thief without stealth, well guess what, a mesmer can be played with no stealth as well!
Just because there is a build or two that uses stealth on mesmer doesn’t make the entire class a stealth spamming one. We don’t even have so much stealth to begin with. If we would chain all the stealth skills we had, we could stay in stealth for like 15-20 seconds with PU, less without.
Compared to thieves who can stay in stealth for hours with CnD..

Well nice to see you back Fay, but i have to say learning how to shatter before learning how to PU is definitely a smart move just for the playstyle it opens up and makes you a better mesmer imo. Yes most thieves have the upper hand on me but then again i get way more than 50% of them with a disruption before they can cnd or hs or such and burst them down hard. The one thief spec that i am having the most problem with is s/d but then again i have only fought a few of them in wvw and they have been good players and close fights. Im not a fan of Pu just because i find so many traits to have more enjoyable playstyles, again IMO.

Benjamin.8237:

Oh my god all the people saying PU is viable, Condi mes is viable, Phantasm Mes is viable…

None of these builds are viable in a tournament, it’s play a shatter as good as you can or don’t bring a Mesmer at the moment, which is unfortunate but true, these builds don’t bring enough to the table and get countered easily.

And by ‘in a tournament’ you mean a real tournament, one that includes the top 5 teams we’ve been mentioning, or just normal team queue?

If just normal team queue, then again you’re wrong. PU condie works just fine, and phantasm builds work just fine on khylo as the trebber. When I bother doing tPvP anymore, I use them and I win.

Are PU condie builds or phantasm builds viable in tournaments against the only 5 organized teams in this game? No. Is mesmer viable in tournaments with those teams? No. This whole argument about what is viable becomes completely irrelevant when you begin discussing tournament play at that top-most level, because mesmers aren’t viable at that level.

What I play and what I advise others to play works in all situations other than that. It simply works the best if you know how to do it. It counters thieves, it counters hambow, it counters condie spam, it counters whatever you want to throw at it. I play to win, I don’t play to theoretically win if I have a team coordinating and peeling thieves so I can get shatter bursts off.

Pwent.2639:

Well nice to see you back Fay, but i have to say learning how to shatter before learning how to PU is definitely a smart move just for the playstyle it opens up and makes you a better mesmer imo. Yes most thieves have the upper hand on me but then again i get way more than 50% of them with a disruption before they can cnd or hs or such and burst them down hard. The one thief spec that i am having the most problem with is s/d but then again i have only fought a few of them in wvw and they have been good players and close fights. Im not a fan of Pu just because i find so many traits to have more enjoyable playstyles, again IMO.

S/D thieves are by far the most common spec you’ll see in tPvP because of their effectiveness at countering mesmers. Is it possible to beat one on a shatter build? Sure, but you have to drastically outplay them, and that’s not always possible.

Fay.2357:

Benjamin.8237:

Oh my god all the people saying PU is viable, Condi mes is viable, Phantasm Mes is viable…

None of these builds are viable in a tournament, it’s play a shatter as good as you can or don’t bring a Mesmer at the moment, which is unfortunate but true, these builds don’t bring enough to the table and get countered easily.

And by ‘in a tournament’ you mean a real tournament, one that includes the top 5 teams we’ve been mentioning, or just normal team queue?

If just normal team queue, then again you’re wrong. PU condie works just fine, and phantasm builds work just fine on khylo as the trebber. When I bother doing tPvP anymore, I use them and I win.

Are PU condie builds or phantasm builds viable in tournaments against the only 5 organized teams in this game? No. Is mesmer viable in tournaments with those teams? No. This whole argument about what is viable becomes completely irrelevant when you begin discussing tournament play at that top-most level, because mesmers aren’t viable at that level.

What I play and what I advise others to play works in all situations other than that. It simply works the best if you know how to do it. It counters thieves, it counters hambow, it counters condie spam, it counters whatever you want to throw at it. I play to win, I don’t play to theoretically win if I have a team coordinating and peeling thieves so I can get shatter bursts off.

I equally disagree, even in normal tournaments those builds aren’t viable. The builds don’t suck, and I don’t care if people think they are cheese or not, but they still wont perform as well as a Shatter Mesmer. That fact cannot be denied, they don’t bring anything to the table. Of course you can play one of those builds and do well if you are a good Mesmer, but other classes can provide the same thing, leaving us with Phantasm and Shatter. In this situation Shatter helps the team more.

Second of all, 55Hp Monks have Misha…a top team Mesmer. TCG have Helseth…a top team Mesmer. BOON have Sensotix…(he still plays his Mesmer). Mesmer is completely viable at top level, if you know how to play effectively…yeah skill matters more for the Mesmer compared to a Warrior.

It is laughable that you say that the “only” 5 teams don’t use Mesmer…unless of course you are referring to NA where no team lasts a month together and you can advance up the leader boards with one win. Also they have run double warrior specs…

You don’t need a team to peel for a thief if you are capable of handling them kittenter yourself either.

I just don’t like people recommending these builds for people to play in a tournament, I wreck over them and more importantly most of the people I have met, in guild, or in the dueling servers…wreck over them. Not a boast but a fact.

Also you cannot bring the leader boards into an argument (as you did above) when they count for nothing and are purely luck based. Also I cannot find that you have been in the top 200 as you claimed, and according to the leader boards you’ve never been in the top 1000.

I don’t want to turn this into a personal rant though as I know you, like myself, have played Mesmer for a long time going back to the betas, and I appreciate everyone’s opinions on the matter.

TL;DR

Play what you want, but don’t expect a Non Shatter build to be “viable”. It might seem to work for you, but it wont vs skilled opponents.

Benjamin.8237:

I equally disagree, even in normal tournaments those builds aren’t viable. The builds don’t suck, and I don’t care if people think they are cheese or not, but they still wont perform as well as a Shatter Mesmer. That fact cannot be denied, they don’t bring anything to the table. Of course you can play one of those builds and do well if you are a good Mesmer, but other classes can provide the same thing, leaving us with Phantasm and Shatter. In this situation Shatter helps the team more.

Shatter theoretically helps your team more, but unless your team is able to peel thieves, you’ll be completely useless. This is seen in the teams 55 hp monks and TCG that you mention. They’ve built their teams around having a mesmer and peeling thieves for that mesmer. Without that build direction, the mesmer is useless.

Benjamin.8237:

Second of all, 55Hp Monks have Misha…a top team Mesmer. TCG have Helseth…a top team Mesmer. BOON have Sensotix…(he still plays his Mesmer). Mesmer is completely viable at top level, if you know how to play effectively…yeah skill matters more for the Mesmer compared to a Warrior.

Again, in order to use a shatter mesmer, you need a team completely dedicated to supporting that mesmer, allowing them to actually perform instead of spending their time kiting thieves. The vast majority of teams opt not to do this.

Benjamin.8237:

You don’t need a team to peel for a thief if you are capable of handling them kittenter yourself either.

I mentioned this earlier, but I’ll restate it. It’s possible for a shatter mesmer to fight a good S/D thief, it’s even possible to win. However, in order to do this you’re forced to completely pull out of a fight and devote your attention to thief avoidance and combat. Doing this means that the thief won, even if you eventually kill it. The thief’s job is to take you out of the fight, not necessarily kill you. Your job is to provide heavy aoe damage support, and you can’t do that if you’re fighting a thief.

Benjamin.8237:

I just don’t like people recommending these builds for people to play in a tournament, I wreck over them and more importantly most of the people I have met, in guild, or in the dueling servers…wreck over them. Not a boast but a fact.

Also you cannot bring the leader boards into an argument (as you did above) when they count for nothing and are purely luck based. Also I cannot find that you have been in the top 200 as you claimed, and according to the leader boards you’ve never been in the top 1000.

Note my signature and previous posts in this thread. Additionally, to say leaderboards are purely luck based is totally misleading. Sure, there’s an element of luck involved, but all the top players on the top teams are at the top of the leaderboards. Luck?

Benjamin.8237:

Play what you want, but don’t expect a Non Shatter build to be “viable”. It might seem to work for you, but it wont vs skilled opponents.

Again, PU conditions won’t work against the 5 organized teams in this game, as I’ve stated over and over. Unless you’re fighting those 5 organized teams, it simply performs better as long as you know how to use it. It isn’t subject to the luck of having no thieves or bad thieves on the other team. Maybe you’re ok with taking the chance of being removed from a game by an unlucky enemy team composition, but I prefer to go with what I know will work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY8Y7pvQQuA A video of my mesmer in some SoloQ matches I have a couple of thief fights.

I usually side with you, Pyro, but I think Ben is mostly right here.
55HP Monks and TCG both had mesmers in their class composition (Misha and Helseth if I’m not mistaken), so mesmer is perfectly viable for top team play, infact all classes are!

While PU condi does work in PvP, it only works against bad players (meaning like really newbies) as a halfway decent PvP player will just instantly know you’re PU and that it would take too much time to kill you and leave you alone, worry about other points. This can pretty much give your team a permacap on a certain point in some cases, while most sPvP players are so bad that they would let something like that happen, a lot of tPvP teams aren’t (you said you don’t play tPvP much, so I can understand why you think a lot of players are that bad – I think we even spoke about how bad people in sPvP are in game a few times)
I can not beat you, I’m sure as you are 10 times more skilled than I am, but most other mesmers that run PU condi I killed quite easily in PvP -> only due to the fact that shatter mesmers eat boons, while other classes don’t really have that ability + a lot of players don’t really know how to fight PU while I, as you know, used to play PU condi a massive amount so I know the “pressure points” on them.
PU condi in sPvP is sort of a bunker that puts out a lot of conditions along the way in my eyes. Its a bunker to people that don’t really understand the importance of keeping points, just want to kill and don’t realize they can not do that at their skill level or because of their build.

A thing that kind of surprised me -> You said you play to win.
That means using a build that will ensure you the easiest, lowest risk win, but it takes the fun out of it in most cases.
I remember you saying so many times to enjoy the game and not worry about winning, getting ascended gear ect.
This kind of goes against that..

Much love,

~Monns

You wrote the response before I managed to post, so sorry if a part of my post is argumented by you in your earlier one.

Jurica.1742:

I usually side with you, Pyro, but I think Ben is mostly right here.
55HP Monks and TCG both had mesmers in their class composition (Misha and Helseth if I’m not mistaken), so mesmer is perfectly viable for top team play, infact all classes are!

Yeah, as I had mentioned, you can use a mesmer, but it requires that your entire team be built around peeling thieves. 55HPM and TCG are willign to do that, most teams are not.

Jurica.1742:

While PU condi does work in PvP, it only works against bad players (meaning like really newbies) as a halfway decent PvP player will just instantly know you’re PU and that it would take too much time to kill you and leave you alone, worry about other points. This can pretty much give your team a permacap on a certain point in some cases, while most sPvP players are so bad that they would let something like that happen, a lot of tPvP teams aren’t (you said you don’t play tPvP much, so I can understand why you think a lot of players are that bad – I think we even spoke about how bad people in sPvP are in game a few times)

This is sorta the first level of understanding with it. It all comes down to using the strengths of the build. If you just walk over to a point and sit on it the whole game as PU condie, you’ll keep that point and lose the game. This, of course, is the same for any bunkery build that decides to just camp a point the whole game, you have to rotate intelligently. PU can function in a team fight just as it functions in a 1v1. It allows you to do a large amount of aoe condie spread on a point, softening bunkers and mitigating glassy attacks through the aoe weakness. The pDisenchanter that I always run with allows for heavy boon stripping as well.

In general though, the idea with PU conditions is to force the enemy team to do 1 of a couple things. You can force them to 1v1 you on a point, this allows you to kill them quick, take the point, and move on. Alternatively, you force them to 2v1/3v1 you on a point to avoid losing it. In this case you draw out the fight and play defensively. You lose the point, but successfully occupy 40%/60% of their team in the useless act of chasing you in circles, allowing your team to gain a numbers advantage in all other fights.

Jurica.1742:

I can not beat you, I’m sure as you are 10 times more skilled than I am, but most other mesmers that run PU condi I killed quite easily in PvP -> only due to the fact that shatter mesmers eat boons, while other classes don’t really have that ability + a lot of players don’t really know how to fight PU while I, as you know, used to play PU condi a massive amount so I know the “pressure points” on them.
PU condi in sPvP is sort of a bunker that puts out a lot of conditions along the way in my eyes. Its a bunker to people that don’t really understand the importance of keeping points, just want to kill and don’t realize they can not do that at their skill level or because of their build.

These are some common misconceptions about how you can play PU condie. You don’t actually need PU in a 1v1 fight. The build itself has a lot of active defense, is quite tanky, and has strong healing. You can almost entirely avoid using stealth in a 1v1, and this allows you to both hold and capture points against a single opponent easily. If this was all I wanted to do, I’d probably run something more like 4/5/5.

Where the stealth duration and boons are necessary is in an outnumbered fight.

If you just want to take out a point real fast, play a thief. If you want to have the capability of sustaining a 3v1, you play a PU condie mesmer. As I explained above, the idea isn’t to hold the point, it’s to force the enemy team to make the choice of either devoting multiple people to you or losing the point. It’s a lose-lose situation, and the skill is in figuring out how to create it. I go into more detail about that in my guide.

Jurica.1742:

A thing that kind of surprised me -> You said you play to win.
That means using a build that will ensure you the easiest, lowest risk win, but it takes the fun out of it in most cases.
I remember you saying so many times to enjoy the game and not worry about winning, getting ascended gear ect.
This kind of goes against that..

Losing isn’t fun, nor is getting my kitten chased across maps by S/D thieves when I’m on a shatter build. I’ll play shatter now and then, and it’s fun to play, but I also enjoy the condie mesmer playstyle, PU notwithstanding. Counters and condies are fun to play with, and it amuses me to watch people kill themselves. It isn’t fun for everyone, and I’m sure it isn’t fun for the people I kill, but I have fun, and that’s all that matters.

Fay.2357:

Jurica.1742:

I usually side with you, Pyro, but I think Ben is mostly right here.
55HP Monks and TCG both had mesmers in their class composition (Misha and Helseth if I’m not mistaken), so mesmer is perfectly viable for top team play, infact all classes are!

Yeah, as I had mentioned, you can use a mesmer, but it requires that your entire team be built around peeling thieves. 55HPM and TCG are willign to do that, most teams are not.

Jurica.1742:

While PU condi does work in PvP, it only works against bad players (meaning like really newbies) as a halfway decent PvP player will just instantly know you’re PU and that it would take too much time to kill you and leave you alone, worry about other points. This can pretty much give your team a permacap on a certain point in some cases, while most sPvP players are so bad that they would let something like that happen, a lot of tPvP teams aren’t (you said you don’t play tPvP much, so I can understand why you think a lot of players are that bad – I think we even spoke about how bad people in sPvP are in game a few times)

This is sorta the first level of understanding with it. It all comes down to using the strengths of the build. If you just walk over to a point and sit on it the whole game as PU condie, you’ll keep that point and lose the game. This, of course, is the same for any bunkery build that decides to just camp a point the whole game, you have to rotate intelligently. PU can function in a team fight just as it functions in a 1v1. It allows you to do a large amount of aoe condie spread on a point, softening bunkers and mitigating glassy attacks through the aoe weakness. The pDisenchanter that I always run with allows for heavy boon stripping as well.

In general though, the idea with PU conditions is to force the enemy team to do 1 of a couple things. You can force them to 1v1 you on a point, this allows you to kill them quick, take the point, and move on. Alternatively, you force them to 2v1/3v1 you on a point to avoid losing it. In this case you draw out the fight and play defensively. You lose the point, but successfully occupy 40%/60% of their team in the useless act of chasing you in circles, allowing your team to gain a numbers advantage in all other fights.

Jurica.1742:

I can not beat you, I’m sure as you are 10 times more skilled than I am, but most other mesmers that run PU condi I killed quite easily in PvP -> only due to the fact that shatter mesmers eat boons, while other classes don’t really have that ability + a lot of players don’t really know how to fight PU while I, as you know, used to play PU condi a massive amount so I know the “pressure points” on them.
PU condi in sPvP is sort of a bunker that puts out a lot of conditions along the way in my eyes. Its a bunker to people that don’t really understand the importance of keeping points, just want to kill and don’t realize they can not do that at their skill level or because of their build.

These are some common misconceptions about how you can play PU condie. You don’t actually need PU in a 1v1 fight. The build itself has a lot of active defense, is quite tanky, and has strong healing. You can almost entirely avoid using stealth in a 1v1, and this allows you to both hold and capture points against a single opponent easily. If this was all I wanted to do, I’d probably run something more like 4/5/5.

Where the stealth duration and boons are necessary is in an outnumbered fight.

If you just want to take out a point real fast, play a thief. If you want to have the capability of sustaining a 3v1, you play a PU condie mesmer. As I explained above, the idea isn’t to hold the point, it’s to force the enemy team to make the choice of either devoting multiple people to you or losing the point. It’s a lose-lose situation, and the skill is in figuring out how to create it. I go into more detail about that in my guide.

Jurica.1742:

A thing that kind of surprised me -> You said you play to win.
That means using a build that will ensure you the easiest, lowest risk win, but it takes the fun out of it in most cases.
I remember you saying so many times to enjoy the game and not worry about winning, getting ascended gear ect.
This kind of goes against that..

Losing isn’t fun, nor is getting my kitten chased across maps by S/D thieves when I’m on a shatter build. I’ll play shatter now and then, and it’s fun to play, but I also enjoy the condie mesmer playstyle, PU notwithstanding. Counters and condies are fun to play with, and it amuses me to watch people kill themselves. It isn’t fun for everyone, and I’m sure it isn’t fun for the people I kill, but I have fun, and that’s all that matters.

Yup I agree condi is fun to play at times only works in Soloq though and maybe low level teamq.

vincecontix.1264:

Yup I agree condi is fun to play at times only works in Soloq though and maybe low level teamq.

Works fine in team queue too. I’ll generally get up to a bit above rank 200, hit a few premades and drop down a bit (as I never do premades, too much effort involved), and repeat.

The part about the misconceptions, I don’t understand what caused the 1v1 part? I didn’t get the point accross well. I was trying to say that it is what a PU mesmer can do (regarding either making a team loose a point or have 2-3+ of them on you, making the numbers go in your teams odds, I wanted to get that accross in the part where I wrote about the fact that PU is in a way a bunker against a bad team in sPvP.). However, that will work against bad players, the part about loosing the point against good teams will maybe be possible to pull off, but not going to be as effective as in some other matchups.

I understand about the watching people kill themselves, that never gets old, but don’t you feel like few people know how to fight you and that you, because of that, can’t really be touched in PU condi?
About loosing isn’t fun → Using shatter doesn’t mean you will keep loosing.
You will loose, you will win, with PU you win 95% of the time and loose 5% of the time, in shatter I’d say it’s more like 70% vs. 30% depending on your skill level, as well as your opponents. I find it much more fun to struggle to win and then come out on top vs. going into a fight basically being wrapped in a blanket, served cocoa and coming on top because the opposing team/player don’t know how to counter you. But its personal preference. Don’t get me wrong, you all know I have nothing against PU, that I love it.

Jurica.1742:

The part about the misconceptions, I don’t understand what caused the 1v1 part? I didn’t get the point accross well. I was trying to say that it is what a PU mesmer can do (regarding either making a team loose a point or have 2-3+ of them on you, making the numbers go in your teams odds, I wanted to get that accross in the part where I wrote about the fact that PU is in a way a bunker against a bad team in sPvP.). However, that will work against bad players, the part about loosing the point against good teams will maybe be possible to pull off, but not going to be as effective as in some other matchups.

Again, this just falls under the category of ‘how good are you at playing PU condie?’, and from the strategy side, not the just killing things side. You need to constantly adjust your strategy, keep an eye on what’s happening on the map and where. Rotate quickly and effectively, and create that imbalance, don’t just hope that it’ll be handed to you.

Is this easy to do? Not really. It took me the better part of a year to really figure it out properly. Are most PU condie mesmers proficient at it? No, not really at all. That doesn’t make it less effective or possible though.

Jurica.1742:

I understand about the watching people kill themselves, that never gets old, but don’t you feel like few people know how to fight you and that you, because of that, can’t really be touched in PU condi?

I enjoy challenges, but I don’t really care where those challenges come from. In PU condie, I get my kicks from maintaining/winning a 3v1 without dying.

The watching whats happening on the map, rotating to cause imbalance is something you do as a mesmer. No matter if you’re in shatter, phantasm or PU. You go where you’re needed to give your team an advantage in xyz way.
And it does take a good chunk of time to figure out how to do in the most efficient way. I still haven’t fully figured it out. There’ve been situations where if I went to a different point to help my team, we would win the game.

Jurica.1742:

The watching whats happening on the map, rotating to cause imbalance is something you do as a good pvp player. No matter if you’re in shatter, phantasm or PU. You go where you’re needed to give your team an advantage in xyz way.

Fixed that for you, and you’re right of course. PU condie just requires using that information in a relatively unfamiliar way for most people.

Yeah, generally as a good PvP player, but thats kind of the main job of the mesmer.
If you would have to describe a mesmers purpose in PvP it would be basically what you said, give your team a numbers advantage using xyz method and if possible, capture/hold some points. Try to put as much pressure on points and eliminate squishy members of the opposing team (this is more shatter job).

I’m kind of talking from what I know from PU in WvW, I have never played PU in PvP but I kind of get the way you would rotate and how you would cause the imbalance, but barely, so please do correct me if I am wrong about something. EDIT: We’re straying from the thread topic though.. This was about a build that counters thieves and now we’re debating whether or not PU is viable in PvP, is it viable post newbie PvP and what a PU mesmers role is..

I usually play shatter in PvP with a bit of interruption builds sometimes and I must say its hard to counter thieves. Whether you can win is much more dependent on how great the difference is between you and your opponent’s skill and experience. Which imo means shatter mesmers have a starting disadvantage, particularly for someone who just started playing that in PvP.

If you really want to stay at shatter mesmer, I have few advises for fighting thieves. Not instant remedy but can mitigate your damage:
- Mirror images+Mind Wreck: Some people may smirk at this but it gives you an unexpected instant burst if the thief thought he’s winning and decided to stick close to you.
- Run with someone who can immobilize/stun/trap thief much better: Team up with a hammer guardian/warrior/engi when fighting in the mid point. You have much better chance of hitting them than your ileap/swap. Plus that’s where shattered concentration and AoE burst actually benefits the most.
- Keep track of thief’s skill usage: See if he use blackpowder/pistol whip more than he should have.
- Illusionary Invigoration: can’t stress enough how good this trait is, allow you to pop distortion and diversion much earlier to avoid thief’s attack. It may also mean two Mind Wreck bursts within 10 seconds.

Again these advises aren’t instant remedy and success rate heavily dependent on the differences between your (plural) skills, particularly the 3rd one. Now that I shared few things I’m ready to be shot down by Fay haha.

He mentioned it twice that he clearly does not want to run a PU build yet some people on here keep straying off insisting that PU is viable. I guess common sense isn’t common anymore.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

I usually play shatter in PvP with a bit of interruption builds sometimes and I must say its hard to counter thieves. Whether you can win is much more dependent on how great the difference is between you and your opponent’s skill and experience. Which imo means shatter mesmers have a starting disadvantage, particularly for someone who just started playing that in PvP.

If you really want to stay at shatter mesmer, I have few advises for fighting thieves. Not instant remedy but can mitigate your damage:
- Mirror images+Mind Wreck: Some people may smirk at this but it gives you an unexpected instant burst if the thief thought he’s winning and decided to stick close to you.
- Run with someone who can immobilize/stun/trap thief much better: Team up with a hammer guardian/warrior/engi when fighting in the mid point. You have much better chance of hitting them than your ileap/swap. Plus that’s where shattered concentration and AoE burst actually benefits the most.
- Keep track of thief’s skill usage: See if he use blackpowder/pistol whip more than he should have.
- Illusionary Invigoration: can’t stress enough how good this trait is, allow you to pop distortion and diversion much earlier to avoid thief’s attack. It may also mean two Mind Wreck bursts within 10 seconds.

Again these advises aren’t instant remedy and success rate heavily dependent on the differences between your (plural) skills, particularly the 3rd one. Now that I shared few things I’m ready to be shot down by Fay haha.

The things you mentioned are all great pieces of advice for combating thieves. They don’t avoid the issue I mentioned though, which is if you’re spending your time focusing exclusively on fighting and avoiding that thief, you’re not performing your job that your team brought you to perform. The one bit that does help that is the ‘team up with another person’ advice, and that’s basically just getting your team to peel the thief for you.

TrueNoodles.3850:

He mentioned it twice that he clearly does not want to run a PU build yet some people on here keep straying off insisting that PU is viable. I guess common sense isn’t common anymore.

well, the thing they talk about isnt based on the topic anymore:p

TrueNoodles.3850:

He mentioned it twice that he clearly does not want to run a PU build yet some people on here keep straying off insisting that PU is viable. I guess common sense isn’t common anymore.

What OP explicitly asked for was a non-PU non-phantasm build that counters thieves and is useful in a team. This does not exist. Why should we bother trying to keep answering that question?

Sorry if this question takes this thread too far off course, but why aren’t phantasm builds viable in pvp? I have only gone into dueling arenas a couple times – never played pvp match. But it seems like phantasm builds work fine there – including against PU condie mesmers and thieves just like in wvw.

And a question for the OP, why not phantasm? Is it because you think all phantasm builds are cheese or you don’t think it would be effective.

Feel free to tell me to start my own darn thread, but Fay was responding in this one

Phantasm Mesmer is also a no-no for me. This is for one reason: the build goes against my number one rule for GW2, to play a build that takes skill. Phantasm Mesmer is an AI build. The play style is literally summoning AIs and letting them do the work. I cannot express how much I despise these types of builds. Turret engi, MM necro. God no. Whenever I see these builds in hot join I will go out of my way to call my guildies in and deliberately keep attacking those AI build and verbally attacking themuntil they rage quit, and I have no shame. They deserve it. To rely on computer programming because they can’t learn to play is incredibly sad.

In short, no.
NEVER

I would rather quit the game than play an AI build.

eldenbri.1059:

Sorry if this question takes this thread too far off course, but why aren’t phantasm builds viable in pvp? I have only gone into dueling arenas a couple times – never played pvp match. But it seems like phantasm builds work fine there – including against PU condie mesmers and thieves just like in wvw.

And a question for the OP, why not phantasm? Is it because you think all phantasm builds are cheese or you don’t think it would be effective.

Feel free to tell me to start my own darn thread, but Fay was responding in this one

Phantasm builds are necessarily for 1v1 encounters. They don’t scale well at all into larger fights because the phantasms just die. This drastically limits their flexibility, and means that you only want to use them if you can guarantee 1v1 fights, i.e. trebbing on khylo.

Edit: I have nothing to say about the response the OP just gave other than lol.

OK – thx for the explanation.

To me, they are just all attacks with different characteristics. Looks like Mesmer choices for you are pretty limited.

I think I like the idea of CI 20/20/30. Will test it out tommorrow and see if i like the play style.

Ah, timing is everything. I was replying to Elitist.

Thx for the explanation, Fay. Is pvp really that different than 2-man roaming in wvw? I do tons of 2v2, 2v3, etc fights in wvw with a phantasm build.

For sure, in fights with tons of AoE, the phantasms die before they get multiple attacks. I use duelists a lot (and use ether signet for 2 duelist burst). I find if I drop them on the edge of a 2 to 5 person fight, they usually last for a few attacks.

Thx again for the answers!

actually, even on shatter u rely on Al attacks, to get the most of shatter builds u synchronoize them with phantasm attacks mostly, well with offhand sword at least

Yes, I understand that the Mesmer uses AI as a class mechanic. However, shatter specs require a large amount of skill. Phantasm mesmers simply summon AI and run in circles while blocking and blurred frenzying

eldenbri.1059:

Ah, timing is everything. I was replying to Elitist.

Thx for the explanation, Fay. Is pvp really that different than 2-man roaming in wvw? I do tons of 2v2, 2v3, etc fights in wvw with a phantasm build.

For sure, in fights with tons of AoE, the phantasms die before they get multiple attacks. I use duelists a lot (and use ether signet for 2 duelist burst). I find if I drop them on the edge of a 2 to 5 person fight, they usually last for a few attacks.

Thx again for the answers!

In WvW, fights are much more open. You have a lot of room to maneuver, and you use it accordingly. This spreads the fight out and lessens the pressure. In PvP, you’re constrained to a rather small circle that has a high intensity of aoe and cleave pressure. If your phantasm gets on that, it dies instantly.

eldenbri.1059:

Ah, timing is everything. I was replying to Elitist.

Thx for the explanation, Fay. Is pvp really that different than 2-man roaming in wvw? I do tons of 2v2, 2v3, etc fights in wvw with a phantasm build.

For sure, in fights with tons of AoE, the phantasms die before they get multiple attacks. I use duelists a lot (and use ether signet for 2 duelist burst). I find if I drop them on the edge of a 2 to 5 person fight, they usually last for a few attacks.

Thx again for the answers!

In WvW your iDuelist has the better chance of standing afar until your opponent take noticed. In PvP when you’re contesting a point, different floors and terrain may limited space for your iDuelists. You could also use the terrain to your advantage if you don’t mind competing the points, but again this will make you unfavorable in PvP.

@Elitist
I know you hate AI but you may want to leave at least one phantasm hanging around before you trap the thief. Shattering illusions are also AI but they may stupidly lost track of thief when the thief stealth during the shatter. Much different from iDuelist who won’t stop/miss the barrage even if the thief stealthed after targeting. Imo S/D thieves are easier to time shatter, but that doesn’t mean its an easy job.

Having shatter traits doesn’t mean your primary damage against thief is shattering though, thief’s hp is low enough for shatter mesmer’s phantasm to hurt/pressure them. You can stay close to your phantasm and let them pressure him, if he slip up/run into your range then you can quickly shatter on him. It’s annoying that you can’t shatter to your heart’s content but its one way to combat the thief. What’s more annoying is this means shatter concentration aren’t working on other opponents properly. You can always alternate your focus between other enemies and the thief but fact is thieves will always serve as a distinctive, distracting and lethal opponent for shatter mesmers.

Elitist.8701:

Yes, I understand that the Mesmer uses AI as a class mechanic. However, shatter specs require a large amount of skill. Phantasm mesmers simply summon AI and run in circles while blocking and blurred frenzying

Noooot quite…. both shatter and phantasms require timing coordination. Phantasms never last long. The only time you even let phantasms live long enough to ‘do all the work’ is if you’re out solo – when you need extra support to mitigate aggro.

Denying yourself of one of the class’ abilities will deny yourself from a useful weapon. You play thief – You don’t like stealth spam, but I bet you still CnD to get a surprise daze. It’s the same with phantasms. If you just summon phantasms, and don’t even shatter them, you lose out on a damage burst, a blind, an interrupt, and a distort.

You haven’t played mesmer yet, so don’t deny the mechanics until you’ve had the time to test them out.

Thx for the info on pvp. I can see how boxing in all the phantasms makes them easier to kill. For sure, fighting at the top of a tower in WvW gets tricky – I find myself running to the back to drop the duelists and then letting the zerkers run through the middle.

Sorry to hijack your thread a bit, Elitist. One thing to consider – phantasms aren’t really an optional class mechanic, every full weaponset has a phantasm. Unless you refuse to push that button, you’ll have phantasms out. So it’s pretty hard to play Mesmer without having some actions taken by the AI (including how the illusions path to the target when you shatter). I hope you get a chance to try playing the class and see if it’s something you enjoy – maybe it won’t feel too “AI-ish” when you play it.

As far as I can see the original poster doesn’t wish to play anything but a shatter build or an interrupt build. The latter is very good at countering Thieves in a fair 1v1, but falls short a bit in team fights where you would be better of ripping boons and applying spike pressure to a target. This also really depends on the build the thief is using, and I mean really. D/D and S/P are free kills if I catch them. D/P is also easily countered as they either sit in stealth or try and heartseeker you.

At the moment, in this current meta…it is not the thief class but about the build. S/D is that build. Frankly if I can see that they suck I will go for them, but if they are equally skilled or better then it’s a waste of my and my teams time fighting them, and if I try to kill them then as Fay said they succeed. Of course I can just run away to where I’m needed, as S/D isn’t that mobile without wasting several skills and if they chase me they are not doing their job either.

Elitist.8701:

Phantasm Mesmer is also a no-no for me. This is for one reason: the build goes against my number one rule for GW2, to play a build that takes skill. Phantasm Mesmer is an AI build. The play style is literally summoning AIs and letting them do the work. I cannot express how much I despise these types of builds. Turret engi, MM necro. God no. Whenever I see these builds in hot join I will go out of my way to call my guildies in and deliberately keep attacking those AI build and verbally attacking themuntil they rage quit, and I have no shame. They deserve it. To rely on computer programming because they can’t learn to play is incredibly sad.

In short, no.
NEVER

I would rather quit the game than play an AI build.

If every player of this game thought like you, we would have a better PVP experience.

Elitist.8701:

Sigh OK, lemme rephrase my question. What mesmer spec is there that isn’t hard countered by thieves, isn’t incredibly boring to play and is viable in PvP. NOT PU. ENOUGH ABOUT PU. I don’t care, even if it was viable, I would never play a stealth spam class.

At the moment? “Equal” skill level? Nothing tbh.

The topic has many different angles as shown by the variety of posts – depending on the situation each player is considering as a priority – a solo/team fight, pvp duel, wvw duel, wvw pug group fight, wvw guild fight, organised tpvp…

If it’s just about countering in terms of pure fighting, anything that can seize the thief and burst hard would be effective (interrupt/lockdown/shatter style), excluding phantasm or PU builds.