Couple of torch questions
1 2
Regarding the iMage, I haven’t ever traited this, but have yall ever used Illusionary Elasticity with the iMage? If so, wouldn’t that put 6 stacks of confusion on someone relatively often? More if you have 2 out of course and assuming the extra bounce goes to the same person.
This phantasm is like any other: summon it, let it attack once, then shatter it. For confusion builds, it ups the sources of confusion that you can rotate on a target to keep a constant stack on someone.
Illusionary Elasticity doesn’t work with iMage. Besides, I believe iMage has two bounces by default, but it does enemy-enemy-ally instead of enemy-ally-enemy.
Confusion builds never count on iMage as part of their Confusion repertoire. It is too slow, too short and too unreliable.
If +CondDuration works on Illusions the iMage may be viable. But it still needs a CD reduction.
Don’t tell me what my confusion build can rely on. Not everyone copypastas builds from the forums. My build uses the mage and it is nice for what it does. God. People are so controlling on this forum. Excuuuuse me! Other people who don’t post as much as you can have opinions too that are less vocal because we don’t sit around and read this forum all day.
Regardless of your opinion, the iMage is the least effective confusion applying skill that any class in the game has access to, and that is a fact. Not only does it suffer from the normal weaknesses of phantasms (obstructed/blinded/invulnerabilitied), the actual projectile is slow and can easily be obstructed by an unintended target. Additionally, it applies confusion for the lowest duration of any skill, unaffected by condition duration. On top of that, it has the largest recharge of any confusion application skill.
Objectively, a build that relies on the iMage for confusion application is a bad build, because it is not a skill that can be relied on. If you simply use it as an auxiliary confusion application for an extra 3 stacks that may or may not work, then sure, that’s how you use it. But you can’t rely on the skill for any use, full stop.
Regarding the iMage, I haven’t ever traited this, but have yall ever used Illusionary Elasticity with the iMage? If so, wouldn’t that put 6 stacks of confusion on someone relatively often? More if you have 2 out of course and assuming the extra bounce goes to the same person.
This phantasm is like any other: summon it, let it attack once, then shatter it. For confusion builds, it ups the sources of confusion that you can rotate on a target to keep a constant stack on someone.
Illusionary Elasticity doesn’t work with iMage. Besides, I believe iMage has two bounces by default, but it does enemy-enemy-ally instead of enemy-ally-enemy.
Confusion builds never count on iMage as part of their Confusion repertoire. It is too slow, too short and too unreliable.
If +CondDuration works on Illusions the iMage may be viable. But it still needs a CD reduction.
Don’t tell me what my confusion build can rely on. Not everyone copypastas builds from the forums. My build uses the mage and it is nice for what it does. God. People are so controlling on this forum. Excuuuuse me! Other people who don’t post as much as you can have opinions too that are less vocal because we don’t sit around and read this forum all day.
Regardless of your opinion, the iMage is the least effective confusion applying skill that any class in the game has access to, and that is a fact. Not only does it suffer from the normal weaknesses of phantasms (obstructed/blinded/invulnerabilitied), the actual projectile is slow and can easily be obstructed by an unintended target. Additionally, it applies confusion for the lowest duration of any skill, unaffected by condition duration. On top of that, it has the largest recharge of any confusion application skill.
Objectively, a build that relies on the iMage for confusion application is a bad build, because it is not a skill that can be relied on. If you simply use it as an auxiliary confusion application for an extra 3 stacks that may or may not work, then sure, that’s how you use it. But you can’t rely on the skill for any use, full stop.
I rely on it to cleanse a condition. God how much clueless torch bashing can you throw out. Whatever, less people running awesome torch builds like mine.
Tsarazi – 80 Asuran Mesmer [DERP]
Maguuma
Maguuma
@Everyone: Go back and read my post earlier in the thread, you seem to have ignored what I wrote about the Mage, but I’ll address a few things here.
The Mage doesn’t perform any better in confusion bomb builds, or condie builds. It is still useless. 3 seconds of confusion is completely worthless. Most confusion builds have at least +70% confusion duration so that the confusion actually lasts a reasonable time. The Mage ignores that, staying at 3 seconds of confusion. Completely worthless.
As far as the retaliation damage, 3 seconds is more than worthless. In 3 seconds, your enemy is unlikely to do more than 3 hits. The total damage from retal in a condie build will be around 600-700 damage. Worthless. Additionally, you can’t control when that retal is applied, and since it is applied with confusion, that makes it even less likely that you will get any benefit out of it. On top of that, using sword/focus gives you highly reliable 14 seconds of retaliation from the leap combo. Anyone who uses the torch for retaliation needs to get their head examined.
Overall, the Mage is worthless. It’s not better in certain builds. If anything, it shows how bad it is even more in confusion builds. It’s on the longest cooldown of any phantasm with a horribly placed cd trait so almost no one takes it, so it is completely useless even for shatter fodder. It is the worst skill of any weapon on any class in the entire game, with no competition.
The mage also gets two bounces with its attack. Not once, twice. Plus, with phantasmal haste it attacks once every 4.8 seconds, not quite keeping it on all the time, but keeping it more than not. Plus, while by itself its worthless, when stacking with all the rest of the confusion you cause, it’s another story entirely.
By itself, sure. But it’s part of an overall larger build. Stacking with the rest of the confusion and retaliation I already do with my confusion build, its a great add-on.
Again, I didn’t say its the best choice. I’m saying its not crappy.
Plus, while by itself its worthless, when stacking with all the rest of the confusion you cause, it’s another story entirely.
By itself, sure. But it’s part of an overall larger build. Stacking with the rest of the confusion and retaliation I already do with my confusion build, its a great add-on.
Again, I didn’t say its the best choice. I’m saying its not crappy.
Actually, your analysis is a bit flawed. No matter whether or not you are stacking the effect of the mage with the rest of your confusion, it still has the same individual effect. Whether or not you already have 15 stacks of confusion on the target, it still only adds 3 more for 3 seconds, and those 3 stacks objectively have the same amount of value as if they were the only 3 stacks on the target.
Compounding it in a build means that your build has other ways to apply confusion, and therefor your build doesn’t fail as it would if you relied purely on that phantasm, but it doesn’t make the phantasm itself any better.
@zastari: With the torch traited, just the summoning of the phantasm itself removes a condition. This means you aren’t actually relying on the phantasm to do anything. Now, the phantasm also removes a condition from you if its attack manages to bounce to you. However, relying on that aspect of the condition removal is foolish, as it requires the phantasm’s attack to hit, and for you to be in range for the bounce, and for it to bounce to you, which is many degrees removed from reliable.
I’d also like to make the distinction, for probably the 4th time in this thread alone, between what I am arguing, and “torch bashing”. I feel that the torch is not a strong enough weapon to use in my builds, and that is my personal opinion based on the worthlessness of the mage. However, several builds that utilize the utility of The Prestige, or the condition removal upon summoning the mage manage to sidestep the problem of how bad that skill actually is, and so the torch works fine in those builds.
However, the fact that the mage is one of the worst skill for any weapon on any class in the entire game is a fact, one that I have repeatedly and at length described and discussed earlier in this thread, and other threads. If you actually want to dispute that, by all means try to justify your position that the iMage isn’t that bad, but I guarantee that you will fail at it.
Plus, while by itself its worthless, when stacking with all the rest of the confusion you cause, it’s another story entirely.
By itself, sure. But it’s part of an overall larger build. Stacking with the rest of the confusion and retaliation I already do with my confusion build, its a great add-on.
Again, I didn’t say its the best choice. I’m saying its not crappy.
Actually, your analysis is a bit flawed. No matter whether or not you are stacking the effect of the mage with the rest of your confusion, it still has the same individual effect. Whether or not you already have 15 stacks of confusion on the target, it still only adds 3 more for 3 seconds, and those 3 stacks objectively have the same amount of value as if they were the only 3 stacks on the target.
Compounding it in a build means that your build has other ways to apply confusion, and therefor your build doesn’t fail as it would if you relied purely on that phantasm, but it doesn’t make the phantasm itself any better.
I feel that the torch is not a strong enough weapon to use in my builds, and that is my personal opinion based on the worthlessness of the mage. However, several builds that utilize the utility of The Prestige, or the condition removal upon summoning the mage manage to sidestep the problem of how bad that skill actually is, and so the torch works fine in those builds.
However, the fact that the mage is one of the worst skill for any weapon on any class in the entire game is a fact, one that I have repeatedly and at length described and discussed earlier in this thread, and other threads. If you actually want to dispute that, by all means try to justify your position that the iMage isn’t that bad, but I guarantee that you will fail at it.
It’s not a weapon skill but it is a utility. Pain inverter is an asuran racial utility that is much used by many smart players. Comparitivly it’s got a 30 second cool down, inflicts 3 stacks of confusion and grants retaliation for 5 seconds. Traited the torch, not to mention phantasm can “1-up” this utility in many ways. Least of all being that, once up, an iMage can continue to fire in 6 or less seconds.
I don’t tend to utilise the iMage that way but there is a lot of comparison to be had there. If I time it right I might get two attacks out of the iMage before shatter instead of one, but that’s neither here nor there. What’s interesting is that I created a nasty phantasm bunker build that keeps the iMage up for long periods, and allows you to get multiple iMages out. Thieves burst is irrelevant in this build. Enemy bunkers have to deal with constant incoming confusion, aswell as the retaliation from multiple sources (including iMage).
I read through the thread. I heard your argument over and over again. The thing is that you ARE the one repeatedly making the claim that iMage is the worst skill of all time. The thing is, you can’t then turn around and demand people justify the iMage’s worth because you’ve claimed it’s trash. The burden of proof is on you to back up your claim. You must think you’ve done that, but here’s the thing. All it takes is for one person to demonstrate success with the iMage and your argument is invalid. I read numerous people contradict you from their own testimony, and frankly that’s all they need to stand justified.
So I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here. Could the torch/iMage do with some tweaks? Yeah, sure, maybe, why not etc. But does it function well right now? You’ve asked individuals this question, but whenever they answer “yes”, you seem to turn off your ears. What exactly is it you’re wanting?
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(edited by Ross Biddle.2367)
Honestly, if the torch were just one skill, “The Prestige,” and nothing else I would still use it.
Stealth is OP as kitten in WvW. Adding another stealth to our bar adds so much survivability and misdirection. With Decoy and The Prestige you can essentially chain 3 Blurred Frenzies together with culling, kiting, and Distortion filling the gaps. You spend so much time either untargetable or outright invulnerable it borders on ridiculous.
Not only that, but we can also have Veil and Mass Invisibility on our bars as backups.
So that’s essentially why I like the torch: chaining invulnerability with stealth.
The thing is, you can’t then turn around and demand people justify the torches worth because you’ve claimed it’s trash. The burden of proof is on you to back up your claim.
You haven’t read my responses well enough then. I haven’t claimed the torch is trash. I have claimed the iMage is trash. My opinion on the torch is that The Prestige is not a good enough reason by itself to use the torch. However, that is my opinion, and as such it needs no burden of proof and carries no argumentative weight in any way whatsoever.
As far as your comparison with pain inverter goes, it is a very different skill from iMage, being a pbaoe attack, but it also functions with both condition duration and boon duration, which immediately puts it on a higher level than the iMage. Additionally, the base durations of both its effects are 5 seconds as opposed ot 3 seconds. Add to the fact that it is an aoe attack, not simply an unreliable bounce, and that adds a bit more. The iMage can renew its attack of course, but only if it hasn’t been shattered, and only if it hasn’t been killed. Pain inverter is significantly more reliable, and applies both confusion and retaliation for a much longer period of time than the iMage.
You mentioned a bunker build you created with the iMages. I would love to see a more thorough description of that build, along with some videos of it in action. The problem with any bunker build that relies on keeping phantasms up is that they are traditionally very difficult to keep alive in an active fight. My tank build relies in a large way on the iDefender, which has significantly more hp than any other phantasm. However, even that phantasm will die rather quickly in a fight, and more often than not I am forced to shatter it for one reason or another.
As far as what I’m trying to prove goes, I’m trying to point out that the iMage is an unbelievably bad skill, and needs to be either massively buffed or completely reworked to be viable. I have acknowledged multiple times in multiple posts in this very thread that the torch can be used quite effectively in different builds, when they rely on the massive utility of the prestige as opposed to relying on the phantasm. The problem is that no matter how many builds use the torch effectively, the fact remains that it is half a weapon, and this needs to be fixed. The fact that effective use of the torch has to almost completely ignore 50% of its skills is a problem.
As a matter of fact, every single build that uses the torch effectively should be all shouting louder than myself to get the iMage turned into a useful skill, because they would all benefit far more than myself from that change, since they use the torch and I don’t. All of my arguments are not trying to prove the torch is bad, or trying to say no one should use it. The only thing I’m trying to do is show how the torch is half of a weapon, and needs to be made whole.
The thing is, you can’t then turn around and demand people justify the torches worth because you’ve claimed it’s trash. The burden of proof is on you to back up your claim.
You haven’t read my responses well enough then. I haven’t claimed the torch is trash. I have claimed the iMage is trash.
That was a mistake which I edited. Regardless, iMage is on the torch and the terms work interchangeably in your argument.
The thing is, you can’t then turn around and demand people justify the torches worth because you’ve claimed it’s trash. The burden of proof is on you to back up your claim.
You haven’t read my responses well enough then. I haven’t claimed the torch is trash. I have claimed the iMage is trash.
That was a mistake which I edited. Regardless, iMage is on the torch and the terms work interchangeably in your argument.
sigh I actually noticed that and then tried to edit my post with a large description of the proof, and then the forum hiccuped and it was all lost. I’ll now type it all in again >_<. For the record, the terms don’t work interchangeably at all, as I explained in that post. I do recommend you read through my post if you didn’t, as it contains really in-detail explanations of my views regarding the torch.
The iMage does 2 things, apply 3 seconds of 3 stacks of confusion and possibly 3 seconds of retaliation. As per my testing, its projectile will hit a maximum of 2 targets, not affected by illusionary elasticity. Additionally, the boons/conditions are not affected by condition/boon duration, and so are locked at those numbers. The base cooldown is 30 seconds, but effectively 24 seconds due to illusions 5.
I will assume the iMage is being used in a condition damage build, because it has 0 utility in any build outside of this type of build. I will assume condition damage of around 1500, producing a total of 355 damage per skill use per stack of confusion, 3 stacks doing slightly over 1k damage per skill use. In 3 seconds, with very rare exceptions (hasted skill-spamming thieves) a target will use a maximum of 2 skills that will produce confusion hits, and very often 1 or 0, if they use or are using a longer channeling skill. Based on this, I will give a maximum damage value of 2000 to the iMage per skill use.
In a condition damage build with negligible power, the possible retaliation it can apply will do negligible, if any, damage, and I will ignore that in this analysis.
Being a phantasm, the damage is subject to normal problems such as obstruction/blind/invulnerability. The projectile is slow and can be LoS blocked or dodged. The phantasm also has low hp, and is unlikely to survive to cast a second attack. However given the possibility that it will do so combined with the additional chances of the attack not working, I will put the total damage per phantasm cast at 3000.
The phantasm has a cooldown of 24 seconds. The cd trait for torch is in a very strange place in the mesmer trait trees, making it difficult to take for any condition damage focused build. Additionally, without that trait, the phantasm has absolutely 0 utility, purely damage. With that trait, it now picks up a bit of utility, but not tied to the phantasm itself, just to the skill use. Due to these, I will assume the phantasm has 0 utility, and 3000 damage per summon is the sum total of its use.
Additionally, the 3000 damage is subject to normal issues that conditions face, including removal, being immune to conditions, or -condition duration (on my tank build, the 3s of confusion would only last 1.05 seconds).
Added all together, the phantasm is a 24 second cooldown skill with 0 utility and 3000 damage in the best of cases, with most situations producing significantly less than that damage, if any damage at all.
All the long cooldown skills in the game either have large amounts of utility (iWarden/static field/etc) or large amounts of damage (meteor shower/whirling axes/churning earth). The iMage has neither high potent damage or utility. Now, I don’t know every single skill in the game, but I do know most of them, and none of them have the massive cooldown that the iMage does with mediocre and fragile damage combined with 0 utility. Based on all of this, I say that the iMage is the worst weapon skill in for any class on any weapon in this game.
Edit: Note that demonstrating success with the iMage does not make it any less of a horrific skill, it simply means that they have managed to do good things with the worst skill in the game, and kudos to them.
Edit 2: I just did a bit of additional testing. I am unable to make the iMage attack bounce to more than one hostile target, even if I have aggroed multiple enemies, and I am out of bounce range. The attack will simply hit the first target and stop there. Therefore, I can safely assume nothing more than those 3 stacks of confusion per attack, there will be absolutely no chance of more than that getting applied.
(edited by Pyroatheist.9031)
Alright, alright, I think we can all at least agree, even if you use the iMage to some success, that the iMage needs a buff.
Say your Confusion does 400 damage and your opponent uses 3 skills during the 3 seconds of Confusion, that’s 3,600 damage: that’s about the same as a Power-based Phantasm in a Power build, and it’s under ideal conditions in WvW. In sPvP it would be more like 1,600 damage. If you factor in Retaliation that might push the numbers up to about 4,400 and 2,400.
So the iMage under rare ideal conditions is roughly equivalent to other Phantasms, which can achieve this level of performance pretty much all the time. And this is in WvW too, in sPvP it’s significantly weaker. And it also has the longest CD of all Phantasms.
Thoughts about improving iMage? Fix the bug where +CondDuration doesn’t affect Illusions, then make iMage’s bounce go enemy-ally-enemy and allow it to double-tap. Reduce its CD to, I don’t know, 25s. Allowing it to work with Illusionary Elasticity would be nice too.
Edit 2: I just did a bit of additional testing. I am unable to make the iMage attack bounce to more than one hostile target, even if I have aggroed multiple enemies, and I am out of bounce range. The attack will simply hit the first target and stop there. Therefore, I can safely assume nothing more than those 3 stacks of confusion per attack, there will be absolutely no chance of more than that getting applied.
In my experience the mage projectile targets 1 enemy to cause confusion, then bounces to up to 2 allies to spread retaliation. It will not bounce to another enemy. This might be a bug, and perhaps why anet hasn’t buffed the mage (“hey, it can keep up 6 stacks of confuse on its own with p. haste!”) ???
@all:
As I have said in other posts, like many I use the torch for the target drop, because I always run Decoy on my bar, and very often Blink as well. The chaining/synergy between these skills is a massive boost to my playstyle and confuses the hell out of players and mobs alike more than any 2 OH weapon skills, or any amount of clones (only staff comes close; warden/void combo can occasionally). Now that the Prestige is no longer a channel, the synergy between it and scepter is given a nice boost as well.
The mage is utter crap for me, especially since I am in a power spec. It’s only savin grace (it doesn’t save the skill, nor the weapon; Prestige does that for me) is that I am usually in or close to melee range and can get the bounce. So that helps me get close to 100% uptime of retaliation with my other skills. Plus regen sometimes since he doesn’t move much. So I get some use from it, but it doesn’t compare to other phantasms. Thankfully, the Prestige makes up for it in my build.
To improve the mage, it definitely needs longer stacks, and perhaps another stack of confusion (4 stacks of 5s confuse, 5s retal), or work with bonus duration stats, or both (probably both on the retal since its even more unreliable). More than anything, though, it needs a much, much lower CD on the skill.
Pyro, I especially like your idea to add debuffs like chill and cripple (and like it for all phants; fulfills the original design for phants to be living hexes much better than just straight damage from most), but don’t see it happening. Mage is supposed to emulate backfire/empathy from GW.
Edit: I’d move the torch CD trait to chaos, too. Would do inspiration, but that already has 2 and they both work better there.
Lone Wolf Mesmer | Warrior | Engineer | Thief
Dissentient [DIS] ~Tarnished Coast
Dissentient [DIS] ~Tarnished Coast
(edited by Gaiawolf.8261)
I’d move the torch CD trait to chaos, too. Would do inspiration, but that already has 2 and they both work better there.
I’m inclined to agree. Domination is not really a good place for that trait (and while we’re on the topic, neither is Confusing Enchantments).
I still wouldn’t use it though, unless it’s Adept tier.
my browser keeps crashing everytime I click reply, so I will have to cut and paste.
Pyro:
" Actually, your analysis is a bit flawed. No matter whether or not you are stacking the effect of the mage with the rest of your confusion, it still has the same individual effect. Whether or not you already have 15 stacks of confusion on the target, it still only adds 3 more for 3 seconds, and those 3 stacks objectively have the same amount of value as if they were the only 3 stacks on the target."
it is not in the slightest bit flawed. it is easy to take 1 element out of a build and use it stand alone as an example of why it is weak. but in a build, everything works together. Sometimes you find a synergy that works better together than apart.
3 stacks for 3 seconds on in hansed is a bit weak. but having 3 of them out, plus your own personal sources, and it all adds up
it is all about additive effect. I like to use a building that uses as much confusion and retaliation as possible, and this add it up to more impressive Heights,
and by the way, it works great for me. if it hasn’t worked as well for you, maybe it’s your build and not the skill that’s the problem
Note, I am NOT saying that the phantasm doesn’t need a buff, I am just saying that it isn’t a trash. I only use it intentionally in a confusion retaliation build, otherwise I just use it for prestige.
so yes, I will admit it needs a buff, I just don’t I think it’s trash either
Don’t expect everyone to read every one of your 1000000000 posts on this forum Pyro. Just because you post the most doesn’t mean that your opinion is more important.
Not everyone has to make a pro/con list to use a weapon. You black and white thinker you. Oh and while you were writing your paragraphs on this forum, I made $1000 today.
-snip-
I smell a troll. But because I’m a nice guy, I’ll feed him for once.
Don’t expect everyone to read every one of your 1000000000 posts on this forum Pyro. Just because you post the most doesn’t mean that your opinion is more important.
How’d you get that idea? If you are discussing something with someone, you are supposed to read what the other person has to say about it. Otherwise it’s not a discussion, but a player trying to discuss something and another player trolling. Nobody expects anyone to read what a person said in OTHER topics… but reading what a person said in a discussion you’re participating in is indeed expected, especially if you’re directly replying to that person. Got it now?
Not everyone has to make a pro/con list to use a weapon.
Yes, of course not. I mean, I could also insist on only using a spear underwater when I’m in a condition build. Screw that silly trident! It wouldn’t make much sense to do so, but hey! Who cares about pros and cons anyway?
Oh and while you were writing your paragraphs on this forum, I made $1000 today.
Congratulations. I think seeing that much money at once has made you unable to see that there’s no reason to start bashing people out of nowhere. Oh wait; you don’t need a reason. After all, you’re just trolling. Nevermind then. But please go troll other trolls instead of people trying to seriously discuss stuff. Thanks.
Edit: At least in this thread it looks like you bring up the postcount of people whenever someone doesn’t share your opinion about something. Is it possible that you’ve got some complexes there? I mean, the forum doesn’t even show any postcount.
(edited by Saturn.6591)
Don’t expect everyone to read every one of your 1000000000 posts on this forum Pyro. Just because you post the most doesn’t mean that your opinion is more important.
Not everyone has to make a pro/con list to use a weapon. You black and white thinker you. Oh and while you were writing your paragraphs on this forum, I made $1000 today.
I simply ask people to read the posts in the thread they are discussing. That doesn’t seem like too much to ask. I want to avoid retyping lengthy conversations that have already been done in this thread.
My post detailing specifically what is wrong about the iMage was in response to someone who asked me to do exactly that. They challenged me to provide proof to my claims, and so I did.
Also, congratulations on your “1000 dollars”.
Okay errrbody stahhppp! Torch… not the greatest offhand weapon but definitely not the absolute joke people make it out to be here!
PROS: Cleansing conflagration… Congratulations you now have 2 condition removers for a class that gets crap condition removal. Blinding befuddlement! Do this right after a shatter and tada! Without running the glamour confusion build you can still instastack around 13-14 stacks of confusion which is if you have good timing… couple this with confusing images on the scepter and constant shatters you can still keep some confusion on the enemy and the iMage is just a nice little buff to that oh did i mention? 2 condition removal in a weapon set when traited!
The cons: This weapon is only good if traited…. Beyond that it is lack luster and lameskies… But i feel most mesmer weapons are best when traited except for maybe the 1H sword because I don’t really need the reductions for it… Lets look at the focus… If not traited you can still get swiftness and a reliable (more reliable than mage) source of retaliation… iWarden not traited only blocks projectiles…. When traited reflects them as well.. rangers? P/d thieves? kitten please.
Okay errrbody stahhppp! Torch… not the greatest offhand weapon but definitely not the absolute joke people make it out to be here!
PROS: Cleansing conflagration… Congratulations you now have 2 condition removers for a class that gets crap condition removal. Blinding befuddlement! Do this right after a shatter and tada! Without running the glamour confusion build you can still instastack around 13-14 stacks of confusion which is if you have good timing… couple this with confusing images on the scepter and constant shatters you can still keep some confusion on the enemy and the iMage is just a nice little buff to that oh did i mention? 2 condition removal in a weapon set when traited!
The cons: This weapon is only good if traited…. Beyond that it is lack luster and lameskies… But i feel most mesmer weapons are best when traited except for maybe the 1H sword because I don’t really need the reductions for it… Lets look at the focus… If not traited you can still get swiftness and a reliable (more reliable than mage) source of retaliation… iWarden not traited only blocks projectiles…. When traited reflects them as well.. rangers? P/d thieves? kitten please.
To be honest, if I traited for Torch my build wouldn’t be as effective, because it doesn’t rely on power but on other trait synergies. I would readily use Cleansing Conflagration if it was in either Dueling/Chaos/Illusion tree, but even without the cooldown reduction and condition removal, it’s a wonderful weapon for my build because although it’s not my “main weapon”, I do use it all the time as needed (in general, by the time I need it again, all its cooldowns have been refreshed.)
Truly Cleansing Conflagration itself is GOOD, but it doesn’t synergize well with my current build due the the high trait point cost in a tree I don’t use. That it would work wonders in my build, there’s no doubt, as condition removal is the weak point of what I currently use.
(edited by Star Ace.5207)
So after playing WvW tonight with a traited torch… even though its not a blast finisher anymore ( I think) I still find it to be an amazing weapon… helps with conditions and I have had a prestige go off for about 4k on a couple crits… plus the burning. image still good for the confusion but you gotta know when to do it for best burst potential. All in all a lot better than people give credit for.
The torch is now my welcome off hand for my sword. My primary is sceptor sword.
Amazingly enough my build uses two of the most hated weapons, and well.
I’ve never been one to get into focus and it was more or less swapped to get from A to B. I know all the benefits retaliation reflection whatever. Just never flowed and the phantasm kept getting its kitten kicked the moment it was spawned, faster then I could actually set up some clones to shatter with it.
Torch, now that is something I can get behind. The target drop is amazing, paired with clone death traits (they pop much bigger and brighter allowing more visual daze to dance and mind kitten with). Torch is an amazing weapon to keep enemies on their toes all the while allowing you to cast and prep chains (epic buff). Paired with sword and you have a good defensive chain, blurred frenzy, pop smoke, pop fire dodge roll back pop iMage, leap back blur again, shatter, roll out and swap.
paired with sceptor/sword primary blocking and I have insanely long and reliable chains of invulnerable damage spiking.
Torch is awesome, some builds, like an immortal mesmer just can’t hack it using it because they are tied into other weapons.
nobody in this thread is arguing that iMage equals god of all phantasms. But to dismiss the entire weapon over a phantasm that is going to be shattered or croaked in a short amount of time anyways… seriously?
I’ve got iSwordsman (spammable on epic proportions) to meet my dps fix if I wanted to not shatter for a time anyways.
Allot of back and forth about the torch. "Its a bad weapon. “Its a okay weapon.” Well I think its a great weapon. Stacks confuse and applies burning. Gives me a blind and drops aggro. I play PvE so its work wonderfully for my condition build.
The fact the community is so divided about it is quite telling.
The fact the community is so divided about it is quite telling.
The meaning being that it’s a fine weapon with kittenty implementation.
It essentially only has 1 skill, but that skill is awesome.
I guess the thing that really gets me is how some people are so content with the current state of the torch (broken blast finisher notwithstanding).
Yes, the torch works great in some builds. Yes, the prestige is an awesome skill, and is the reason the torch is so amazing. However, the iMage is just horrible.
Seriously, think of how much MORE amazing the torch would be if it actually had a phantasm that wasn’t COMPLETELY useless. The torch would be an awesome pick in a ton of builds instead of just a few really specific builds because it would have 2 great skill like every other offhand we have.
Yes, the torch works fine in some builds now, but that is absolutely no reason not be clamouring to give it 2 real skills.
Most of us didn’t say we’re “content” with how it is, I think most people on both sides of the argument agree the iMage is bad. What we don’t agree on is whether the Torch, in its current form, is viable or not. But just because we think it’s viable doesn’t mean we’re “content” with the way iMage is.
I really hope the iMage gets a rework or at least a more reliable range! But honestly with the torch as is now compared to pre-patch (even with the finisher) I’ll take it now… It adds so much damage to a blurred/MW combo not that its not channeled… You can still stack confusion quite high and in WvW with the button mashers it is pretty awesome… I had bunker guards party me and say how they felt locked down the whole time because of confusion… So that should be worth something even to the people that hate the torch.
I guess the thing that really gets me is how some people are so content with the current state of the torch (broken blast finisher notwithstanding).
Yes, the torch works great in some builds. Yes, the prestige is an awesome skill, and is the reason the torch is so amazing. However, the iMage is just horrible.
Seriously, think of how much MORE amazing the torch would be if it actually had a phantasm that wasn’t COMPLETELY useless. The torch would be an awesome pick in a ton of builds instead of just a few really specific builds because it would have 2 great skill like every other offhand we have.
Yes, the torch works fine in some builds now, but that is absolutely no reason not be clamouring to give it 2 real skills.
The whole idea about giving that phantasm a confusion attack was a poor idea. Confusion is only really useful in PvP so the phantasm is automatically useless in PvE. Then on the PvP side if you give the thing too much confusion and confusion that lasts too long, you allow for ridiculous confusion stacking and maintain on a target, which would make it op in small scale WvW. The line between too much and too little Confusion is too fine and it just creates a stupid balance headache.
I think a solution would be to have it inflict Burning instead of Confusion on a target of such duration and attack rate that 2 phantasms could maintain permanent burning. I think that would put the phantasm in a good place and keep it in line as a condition weapon — plus it makes sense for it to inflict burning as a torch skill.
Keep the stacks the same… Up duration of confusion to 5 seconds… Happy happy joy joy… Engis get it at 5 seconds why couldn’t mesmers the “confusion” class get the same.
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