Guild Wars 2

As many have, I gave power shatter a go without DE, just to see how it felt. And, of course, it was abysmal. Thinking about the new chrono trait whereby shattering a clone produces another, I don’t think this will really make up for DE in power shatter. DE gives up front clone generation; you need clones up front, not 1 then another after your MW is already blown.

Thus the question: Is DE still mandatory for mesmers in sPvP? For what builds do you guys think it will be?

I think DE will still be a must for power shatter.

Because of the way MtD works with every shatter, maybe this chrono trait will be able to replace DE for that build (though the two dueling minors are so good for condi application most MtD players will still take Dueling it seems to me).

Right now, I think the devs still left us with the situation of mandatory Dueling in PvP. Everything else looks great, however I think this particular situation is still lame (mandatory trait).

Edit: I should say, I think DE is still mandatory for mesmers in PvP who want to primarily deal damage. I’d guess there are some support builds that will be possible that won’t need Dueling.

Must-Have for DE:

• Power Shatter in its most classic sense.
• Power Lockdown

With Chronomancer providing a lot of clone management efficiency, I think well have another option.

Two builds that can definitely go without DE:

• Confusion build using Mistrust and Chaos/Illusions lines.
• Condition shatter taking Chaos/Chrono/Illusions. Or even forgoing Chaos for Mistrust and bleed/confusion crits.
• Any build that takes Chrono would be able to possibly survive without DE.

Disclaimer: This is all fun speculation. We still don’t know completely the traits provided in Chronomancer nor do we know everything other professions will receive so let’s not all get into heated debates.
^ this should be in my new signature until HoT comes out.

I think Chrono builds would benefit with having DE. But that depends on the other traitlines used with Chrono.

Both pre and post changes Phantrupt is about the only thing I’d run without DE. GS Sw/Pi – 6, 6, 0, 2 with Halting Strike, Empowered Illusions, CS – Phant fury, Pistol CD, +1 mantras – Mender purity. Mantra heal, decoy, blink, MoD. Can also Go sw/sw sc/pistol.

Post patch similar setup but with Dom Due Cha taking CS, PB, +1 Mantra, CI

Power shatter could work with domination, illusions (for recharge on shatters and illusion skills mainly) and chronomancy with both clone and phantasm traits.

Trouble is, duelling is still looking to be a solid line for any build – you’ve got vigor on crit, bleeding/confusion on crit and mistrust for any condition build, DE and blinding dissipation for any shatter build, pistol trait for any interrupt build, harmonious mantras for pve builds… going to have to wait and see exact details for chronomancy traits, otherwise I’d still imagine many/most builds will still take duelling for different reasons.

As MailMail said, I think it’s too early to really speculate about this, and I’m pretty sure we’re giving into our pre-conceived notions about current builds, but I do think that once you take Mirror Images into account, and the Chronomancer line, you really can’t say where we will end up.

Way too much of this depends on variables that we simply don’t know yet, and don’t know how they play. I could see even a “classic” Power Shatter setup foregoing DE for Chrono, and with MI being able to use F5 to double-shatter 3 clones almost instantly. (Again depending on a bunch of things we simply don’t know yet.)

Only MI is really certain to be fast enough to get 3 illusions on a target almost instantly, then rewinding time and doing it again. You may not be able to do this with DE at all, or fast enough.

For MtD it’s almost certain that you would take Chrono in order to be able to double or tripple up on F2 shatter, keeping your illusions with Chrono for a followup F1, and then reqind time and do it all over again. You’d maybe even take DE to boot in order to get as many illusions as you possibly can, because you will have plenty of shatters up at any time to get more Torment & Confusion out there.

Power Shatter can’t really make use of all the clones you can now produce, because the only really strong offensive shatter is MW. Although I could see it being useful to both F1 shatter and then immediately after F4 shatter the Chrono-generated illusions for immunity.

Although I clearly see that Chronomancer will not be a requirement to play P-Shatter, Condie Shatter, or whatever, but I do think there will be viable shatter builds of all kinds that will not take DE or Dueling at all.

As Ross will gladly tell you, there almost kinda is life without DE, it’s not as gravy as with DE, but it can work out OK. Chrono will now substancially increase the amount of illusions you can have up for shattering, without DE, and thus logic tells me it almost certainly will be possible to do without it. (Though DE and Dueling as a whole remain a powerful alternative to Chrono for sure!)

I must say, tried CI Shatter (without DE of course) and it was really fun to play, also really strong after adapting to play without the DE trait. I don’t think its a Must to go with it when you can use three trait lines, but who knowes how the specializations of the others classes effect the mesmer play? Don’t know, so we will see

I’m don’t think it will be mandatory, though I think on demand clone generation will be a lot better with it (did I win the stating the obvious competition?) and so will feel mandatory in a lot of builds. As others have said we’ll have to wait and see on chronomancer traits as well.

Another thing that has me curious is that turrets can now be crit which to me seems like maybe they will change the way minions, turrets, illusions etc take damage. Perhaps they may reduce cleave damage to these things unless targeted or do a balance pass at health/armour so they’re not simply cleaved out by 2 great swords.

If such a change happened then maybe DE would not feel needed if clones lived longer. Which would then bring us to “Why is DE a grandmaster if no-one really needs it and it doesn’t do anything else?”

I don’t have much pve exp with my mesmer, but i tried some pvp builds without DE and I really disliked it. Less close means less shatters and less confusion the enemy = less survivability and damage.

I tried making some HoT pvp builds with the new editor and I feel I have even less choice as a pvp mesmer then before. The dueling line is mandatory in my opinion because of DE. So i’m left with only 2 others trait lines to choose from. I wanna go for a shatter build? Well i have to pick Domination and Illusions.

We don’t know the chrono traits yet. Even if there is a trait that can replace DE that just results me being locked in chrono instead of dueling.

calivaty.8295:

I don’t have much pve exp with my mesmer, but i tried some pvp builds without DE and I really disliked it. Less close means less shatters and less confusion the enemy = less survivability and damage.

I tried making some HoT pvp builds with the new editor and I feel I have even less choice as a pvp mesmer then before. The dueling line is mandatory in my opinion because of DE. So i’m left with only 2 others trait lines to choose from. I wanna go for a shatter build? Well i have to pick Domination and Illusions.

We don’t know the chrono traits yet. Even if there is a trait that can replace DE that just results me being locked in chrono instead of dueling.

so… you have to spend 4 points for DE now and you’ll have to pick dueling traitline after the revamp: what changes? except now you have another major to pick in that same traitline “for free”

Menaka.5092:

calivaty.8295:

I don’t have much pve exp with my mesmer, but i tried some pvp builds without DE and I really disliked it. Less close means less shatters and less confusion the enemy = less survivability and damage.

I tried making some HoT pvp builds with the new editor and I feel I have even less choice as a pvp mesmer then before. The dueling line is mandatory in my opinion because of DE. So i’m left with only 2 others trait lines to choose from. I wanna go for a shatter build? Well i have to pick Domination and Illusions.

We don’t know the chrono traits yet. Even if there is a trait that can replace DE that just results me being locked in chrono instead of dueling.

so… you have to spend 4 points for DE now and you’ll have to pick dueling traitline after the revamp: what changes? except now you have another major to pick in that same traitline “for free”

What changes. Nothing still stuck in a trait to use our core ability that they are pressing even more. Why I wonder why de was not baseline. I want to use our mechanic in any trait line.

It’s hardly “being stuck” in a traitline, when you consider what the line offers. As stated above, you used to put 4 points into it to get 2 minors, 1 adept, and 1 major (DE). Now you get a far more useful minor on top (Confusion on crit for both you and illusions), and you get and extra major. How about AE Blind on shatter…oh yeah, that’s not really useful, is it? ;-)

That might as well have been a GM right there. That is a boat-load of blinds! Not to mention that you likely had “Far Reaching Manips” as an adept before, which you also now get for free. (Not to mention IP!)

What changes? Nothing! lol! These boards are always great for a laugh.

If you still feel stuck with Dueling, you also can choose Chronomancer and live quite well without DE! At worst you pick up MI and combo it with F5 and the Clone + Phantams traits, you’ll have plenty of Clone/Illusion generation. Of course you’ll give up on that AE Blind, easy Vigor, and the lesser items you get from Dueling.

I get your point, but IMO it’s focusing too much on the current game, and forgetting about the other changes. DE is still a fine GM trait, specialization defining in fact, but it is no longer a must-have as before. There are alternatives, and with IP being baseline, a lot of pressure to be forced into Illusions is off the table. That alone opens up a variety of shatter builds that weren’t possible before. Making DE baseline on top, would have possibly been too much. (For example, allowing you to build a very tanky P-Shatter build with Dom/Chaos/Ill. without any trade-offs. Do massive AoE damage, but have near 100% Chaos Armor uptime, lots of added Chaos Storms, and of course PU.)

At least now we have 2 unique lines for Clone-intensive builds.

I think Dueling is going to be an extremely hard sale to swap out for a different Specialization for any build that has precision because of:

• Vigor on-crit
• 100% Bleed chance on-crit (Illusions only)
• 100% Confusion chance on-crit (Mesmer and Illusions)

Even if you’re a power-build, you should be aware by now that that extra damage does add up … especially against high-toughness targets since conditions ignore toughness/armor.

… and that’s just the Minor Traits.
There are some darn good Major Traits … my current favorites looking to be:

• Duelist Discipline
• Evasive Mirror
• Deceptive Evasion

They are selling us a new fast pitched Mesmer and they want us to use our class mechanic. Those other traits are great your right. But sadly the only way to shatter effectively use our class mechanic is use that trait line. Sadly move de anywhere and we forced to take it. It is our anchor.

I think it’s too early to say whether or not Deceptive Evasion is required for shatter builds now. Undoubtedly useful, yes, but required? We’ll have to get our hands on using Chronomancer.

If you have 2 phantasms and 1 clone and the Chronomancer traits for shattering them, then when you shatter those 3 illusions, you’ll still have 2 phantasms and 1 clone. You just technically “generated” 3 illusions.

Is anyone else bummed out about not having access to mender’s purity anymore? Is anyone gonna pick inspiration for any build? :x Before we just needed two points for it ;-;

@Madisonlee.9641:
We didn’t lose Mender’s Purity. It’s still in the Inspiration specialization as a Major Adept trait. It’s just been made better (cleanses you and nearby allies) and combined with Harmonious Mantras.

“Cast Power Cleanse when you using a healing skill. Heal allies around you when you finish preparing a Mantra.”

Power Cleanse is the active from a charged Mantra of Resolve.

• https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Power_Cleanse

You misunderstood me. I know it’s still there, but almost no mesmers went past 2 in that line (only to get mender’s purity). now that we are forced all the way in, I can’t think of any build that will go that line- is what I meant by losing access to it

@Madisonlee.9641:
We don’t have trait points any more. So unless your build used more than 3 specializations, you’ll still be able to play it.

In fact, if your specialization used more than 3 specializations but it did so in order grab various traits that are now baseline (Manipulation range, Glamour cooldown, Illusionary Elasticity, Illusionary Persona, etc.) then you’ll still be able to have your build.

In fact, except in those corners cases where you were specced into 4-5 traitlines and not taking those traits that are now baseline, you’ll now be gaining quite a bit due to:

• Getting to pick an Adept, Major, and Grandmaster in all three Specializations
• Multiple current traits being rolled into various single traits in the new Specialization system.

Phantasm builds liked to put 5 points in Inspiration.

Focus builds loved to put at least 4 for the reduced cooldown and reflection … which is just such a good weapon … just underestimated due to the darn iWarden.

Madisonlee.9641:

Is anyone else bummed out about not having access to mender’s purity anymore? Is anyone gonna pick inspiration for any build? :x Before we just needed two points for it ;-;

Hell yes – condition interrupt with the focus, Duelling/Chaos/Inspiration. I seriously can’t wait to try it out – it’s difficult at the moment to properly enjoy 0/4/6/4/0 while anticipating the upcoming changes.

Edit: But anyway, the fewer people that play this the better – I like it to remain a niche build, which it should do as most condition mesmers would likely stick with the torch and be attracted to PU+MtD playstyles.

Madisonlee.9641:

Is anyone else bummed out about not having access to mender’s purity anymore? Is anyone gonna pick inspiration for any build? :x Before we just needed two points for it ;-;

Oh I think we’ll be seeing some support shatter and/or tank/shatter builds coming out of that line. I could see it jiving well with Chronomancer too, bringing wells, lots of AoE condie clears, or pretty intense boon-sharing to your team. It’s not my cup of tea, but if it turns out half as effective as it looks, such builds will become not only viable but probably popular.

There are so many possibilities for new builds here, it’s mind boggling.

@sebrent

sorry i’m not being very clear with my words; what I meant was

after HoT I assume a shatter mesmer will go dom dueling and illusions.

and intterupt mesmer is going to go dom dueling and chaos.

a chronomancer of these 2 variants will be even further restricted, IE, that’s what I was trying to say. I can’t see anyone going into inspiration over the other trees. (exceptions being phantasm builds which are not viable in tpvp right now so I don’t take them too seriously)

i use DE IRL all the time.

teehee

Happy to see people are taking inspiration seriously though! I was thinking it might work well with cele? For all the healing, and could also use scepter/staff or something for some condi pressure

I know this is speculation, I’m just saying that having clones spawn after you shatter is pretty different than before. With DE, you spawn one clone with weapon and one clone with dodge (eg. GS 2 and dodge), for a two clone shatter. This is really different from one clone, shatter, then another clone because whatever shatter you used is on cd, and that clone that just appeared is not going to survive until that shatter comes back off cd.

So the chrono thing really does not replace DE functionally for power shatters at all imo.

As said in title, maybe this isn’t true for condi shatter or support or other builds.

But as also pointed out, maybe that is fine. You want to play power shatter you take Dueling, it’s just part of the build. There is only a problem if this is true for essentially all real pvp builds, which is the point of the discussion.

Of all the ideas for an alternative to DE, I think have clones spawn after a shatter is one of the…least optimal. You could have some mechanic with an icd where clone skills produce two clones, for example. If every 5 seconds you could spawn two clones with a weapon skill, that really would compete with DE.

Edit: Also, I really don’t think MI is a reasonable argument here. You shouldn’t have to take a utility to make your main class mechanic workable.

You could shatter a considerable amount with something like Chronomancer, Dueling, Inspiration due to:

• Vigor : on-crit and on-shatter
• Healing : on-shatter and regen from phantasms … and +healing from illusions
• Anti-projectile: reflect-on-evade, traited focus, shield
• Cleanse : on-shatter

The vigor will synergize with deceptive evasion to give you more dodges for more clones.

(1) More clones gives you (2) more illusions.

(2) More illusions means you can afford to do (3) more shatters.

(3) More shatters means (4) more alacrity, vigor, heals, and cleanses

(4) More alacrity and vigor brings up back to (2) more illusions.

It’s a nice little cycle

MSFone.3026:

Edit: Also, I really don’t think MI is a reasonable argument here. You shouldn’t have to take a utility to make your main class mechanic workable.

Oh come on now! No one is going to care about the principle behind how something “should” work, that being in and of itself highly subjective anyway, but they will only care about what works best.

How will Power Shatter with Chrono instead of Dueling work?

F5 → MB + MI → F1 + F2 → F5 → MB + MI → F1 + F2

That’s a double 3-Clone MW plus 3-Clone CoF combo, within a very very short duration thanks to Chronomancy. No need for DE, keeping you free to take Dom & Ill for max damage on those MWs. (If doing this in a 1v1, you’d also have 10 stacks of Might up for the second combo, 20 stacks after the second one…nice BF inc! ;-) )

Any further questions on Power-Shatter and Chrono? ;-)

Ok so in theory you have to tap dance with your fingers, and still stuck taking chrono as the trait line. The Mesmer is supposed to shatter the class mechanic. The more I think about what they made baseline excluding de doesn’t make sense. The rest of that stuff longer manipulate ie just flavors the Mesmer. We cannot use our mechanic without things to shatter.

Windwalker.7421:

MSFone.3026:

Edit: Also, I really don’t think MI is a reasonable argument here. You shouldn’t have to take a utility to make your main class mechanic workable.

Oh come on now! No one is going to care about the principle behind how something “should” work, that being in and of itself highly subjective anyway, but they will only care about what works best.

How will Power Shatter with Chrono instead of Dueling work?

F5 -> MB + MI -> F1 + F2 -> F5 -> MB + MI -> F1 + F2

That’s a double 3-Clone MW plus 3-Clone CoF combo, within a very very short duration thanks to Chronomancy. No need for DE, keeping you free to take Dom & Ill for max damage on those MWs. (If doing this in a 1v1, you’d also have 10 stacks of Might up for the second combo, 20 stacks after the second one…nice BF inc! ;-) )

Any further questions on Power-Shatter and Chrono? ;-)

This is all well and good theory crafting, but a build survives not on some once a minute semi-gimmick, but on being reliably able to do what it is supposed to. Yes the above would be neat, assuming that all works perfect. But things don’t work perfect most of the time, and now that you’ve blown your load, what do you do for the next minute?

Lot’s of builds can be theory crafted to do amazing things by blowing a bunch of skills at once. I mean what you wrote is not comparable to current power shatter at all: DE is always there and always works, no cd. Above you have a scenario where you blow a 60 sec cd (F5) and a ~40 sec cd utility (can’t remember exact cd on MI). One of the reasons power shatter works is that the longest cd it relies on for dmg is 12 sec (MW).

And again, a build relying on MI to do a reasonable attack is a really weak build. Maybe I’m dense; what would your attacks look like without MI?

Again, if it works, people will do it simply because it’ll be a huge damage spike. I agree it has a big downside, which is why not everyone will take Chrono. If there were no downside to it, then there would only be this one choice and DE would be replaced. That won’t be the case, because as you said there will be counter play to the above, but still it will be used if it can deliver a double-MW+CoF combo in short succession.

It’s just front-loaded damage, which usually comes with the trade-off of being on a longer CD. The player with this build would then have to focus on Phantasm and AAs, or dropping fields like CS & wells, and use the other shatters with just 1 or no Illusions, just to get the Alacrity to lower his CDs.

I didn’t say this will kill the DE-based Power-Shatter, and I’m glad it doesn’t. I agree it has many advantages, more consistent damage output, AoE blind, etc. That’s how it should be, but just when you feel that you know the difference between a P-Shatter Mesmer and a Chronomancer, you’ll run into that occasional Chronomancer with P-Shatter who double-shatters your team into oblivion. ;-)

Of course then the nerf cries roll in, Anet knee-jerks as usual, and we’re back to DE being required to P-Shatter. ;-)

MSFone.3026:

Above you have a scenario where you blow a 60 sec cd (F5) and a ~40 sec cd utility (can’t remember exact cd on MI). One of the reasons power shatter works is that the longest cd it relies on for dmg is 12 sec (MW).

I did forget to mention Alacrity in this part of the discussions about CDs. Now it being fairly limited/short in nature, it won’t be all that effective against longer CD skills, but it will do wonders for short to medium duration CDs. Even as Chronomancer you get the automatic 15% CD reduction on MW, so it’s down to 12.75s CD. If you can maintain just 5s of Alacrity on yourself during that CD, you cut MWs CD down to 9.4s!

Sure you won’t be able to do those massive F5 + MI combos very often, but with persisting Clones & Phants you can still get some nice MWs in between. (Not to mention the increased Phantasm damage!

Summon iZerker => it attacks => Shatter it (F2 or F3) => Auto-summons iZerker => it attacks again => Profit!

In the mean time you’ve created at least one more illusion, and now you MW.

It’s not as easy and intuitive as DE, perhaps, but it will produce enough extra illusions alongside the other benefits of the line, to make it viable IMO.

Again not to be mean but what is viable if we haven’t played. We know for a fact de is very important. I am disappointed I cannot choose ANY trait line and use my class mechanic.

Support looks ALOT vetter than before. Im not 100 % on the build yet, but we’re looking at 0/6/6/6/0 or something. Chaos and inspiration for boons and heals and condi remove, duelling because it is the best traitline for general purpose. Basically DE still necessary. However, with chronomancer who is to say that a chaos-insp-chronomancy build wont be viable.

Edit: harmonious mantras and mender’s purity synergy is sweet.

Yeah for sure Yaniam! For that you obviously also would have to give up DE, but with IP baseline you can make such a build work. You can either focus on getting boons from Interrupts, PU, or by shattering. Then with Insp you can share them every time you summon a Phantasm.

Personally, I think I would give up on Dueling though, and go with Domination Interrupt traits instead.

Upon interrupt you will gain 5x Might +1 random Boon per interrupted target, plus 3s Quickness, instant-pop MW & Staff #4 for 5s Vigor and Protection, and then summon a Phantasm to share all of that goodness. (Outgoing boons gaining at least 15% duration to boot!)

And every interrupted player would face being damaged, Power Blocked, Weakened, Immobilized (plus Blind/Chill/Cripple), and Vulnerable. lol!

Even if the CD on Illusionary Inspiration is correct, which I personally doubt, you could still take the Signet of Inspiration and copy boons twice every 45 seconds. (And copy some Swiftness and another random Boon every time to boot.)

You would also still have fairly reasonable damage output, and support like Menders Purity and the other standard stuff. Even without HM I think I’d go for Mantra of Resolve anyway, just to trigger MP more often, and compensate my own healing with Restorative Illusions. (You’ll be pretty tanky due to traited Staff alone!)