Guild Wars 2

Death and Taxes guild, using highly detailed DPS models, found that if a Mesmer hypothetically had three permanent, invincible phantasms:

• Their dps would be about the same as other classes.
• Their damage without shatters or phantasms would be about half that of other classes.

http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/viewthread/13274266-mesmerino-dpserino-no-copypastarino

Thats funny. I do very well in pvp, wvw, and pve with my mesmer. yawn

You don’t need damage to do well in the game; it just helps to make things faster.

Today was a confusing day, people realized mesmer was a support class in PvE metagame.

Interesting numbers, but the build under test is optimised for Phantasm damage. Not that we have such a plethora of strong direct-damage traits, but even still I think a more illuminating comparison would be to theorycraft a Mesmer Direct Damage build and compare that to the hypothetical 3xPhantasm build.

But anyway, like Miku implies, it’s really not teaching us anything we didn’t know already.

I think the take-away is that even fully-specc’d into phantasms … which is the only way a Mesmer is getting the multiple cumulative damage modifiers like other classes can get … it is only matching the damage of those other classes when it has 3 phantasms up.

3 Phantasms:

• Is blackloaded
• More difficult to maintain

There are cons, but overcoming those cons only results in getting the same results as those that didn’t have to overcome them.

That can lead to frustration.

Sebrent.3625:

I think the take-away is that even fully-specc’d into phantasms … which is the only way a Mesmer is getting the multiple cumulative damage modifiers like other classes can get … it is only matching the damage of those other classes when it has 3 phantasms up.

Yeah, and that’s a very fair point. The idea that Mesmers rely on Phantasms for DPS is inherently flawed, and that’s not new knowledge to anybody (I hope).

This is compounded by the fact that current PvE content sits in an uncomfortable trough where fights last too long for shatter burst damage to be relevant but not long enough for our backloaded DPS to flatten out.

The flip side of the same problem is that we also need Phantasms to provide support and utility, which further cuts us off from using our Shatters. If you shatter your iWarden, he’s not reflecting projectiles, right?

But, you know, what do you do about that? Buff damage on all non-Illusion weapon skills? Great, now all the PvP builds that didn’t give a fig about Phantasm uptime in the first place end up OP.

What we know of HoT so far suggests that ANet’s approach appears to involve both patching up the “Phantasm builds can’t Shatter” problem via Chronophantasm and allowing us to make up for our weak individual DPS by contributing to group DPS via Alacrity and Quickness. Which leaves non-Chronomancer Mesmers still in the same awkward spot for PvE, but it’s better than nothing?

tobascodagama.2961:

But anyway, like Miku implies, it’s really not teaching us anything we didn’t know already.

Also, you guys should note that this thread is a year old.

@Miku:
Yep, but have our damage coefficients changed since then? :-p

Morfedel.4165:

Thats funny. I do very well in pvp, wvw, and pve with my mesmer. yawn

that’s cool, how many times though have you seen death and taxes associated with wvw and pvp though?

yeah, that’s what I thought.

so how’s your wvw and pvp experience relevant to a thread discussing full phantasm uptime and the DPS it is capable of?

You doing well somewhere is anecdotal so doesn’t really help much with the discussion.

Coefficients didn’t change (except Ranger runes getting nerfed), but this thread looks like a worldwide revelation about mesmer in PvE. ><"

No revelation. I’d seen it before. It’s just a thread that popped up and we’re discussing it.

The data is still relevant so I don’t see why we can’t discuss it.

Mesmer currently has to overcome a hurdle that others don’t.

• When they don’t overcome it, their DPS is bad
• When they do overcome it, their DPS only matches (at best) the other classes.

It doesn’t exactly scream “balance”.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Coefficients didn’t change (except Ranger runes getting nerfed), but this thread looks like a worldwide revelation about mesmer in PvE. ><"

I was actually under the impression that with all 3 phantasms up mesmer had slightly higher dps than most classes. This shows that even with all 3 up (which is only possible on maybe 10% of encounters in the game) mesmer only just evens out.

In ANet’s eyes, a class with excellent array of amazing utility (debatable) surpassing other classes dps even if only under ideal conditions, is a big no no…

frifoxy.6014:

In ANet’s eyes, a class with excellent array of amazing utility (debatable) surpassing other classes dps even if only under ideal conditions, is a big no no…

This would make more sense if the full depth and breadth of mesmer utility was actually needed in dungeons.

Also, would be cool if they didn’t keep nerfing reflects. Seems like every time I enter a dungeon, something I used to be able to reflect just ignores it.

@frifoxy:
Does that mean we’re going to see Guardian dps nerfed? :-p

What about Elementalist?
Phalanx Warrior?

Guess this goes to that debatable part … which I honestly don’t think is that debateable … I assume you’re hinting at the same.

Sebrent.3625:

@frifoxy:
Does that mean we’re going to see Guardian dps nerfed? :-p

I can only hope. Not a big fan of seeing guards doing more reliable reflects than me while still being on top of their DPS game.

Let’s not forget their wonderful ability to aid the “stack and dps” by having a mindlessly easy pull … temporal curtain requires skill to use correctly. Again … paying more in skill in order to get the same outcome at best.

Sebrent.3625:

@frifoxy:
Does that mean we’re going to see Guardian dps nerfed? :-p

What about Elementalist?
Phalanx Warrior?

Guess this goes to that debatable part … which I honestly don’t think is that debateable … I assume you’re hinting at the same.

Well, for Guardians in particular, I think the DPS measurements are pretty close? Going off this spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bAcpwAdwB24CxK_Ziy8ygISUHCkQepLfRMh2_PtP52o/edit#gid=1883199869

It does seem obvious that Ele and Phalanx Warriors are both annoying outliers in terms of putting out big damage numbers at the same time as they provide a lot of group support effects, though.

Warrior doesn’t bother me as much as Ele does due to only really having access to damage and boons. That’s a little more “fine” in my head than Ele.

Elementalist is providing damage, boons (master of Fury), conditions (including vuln stacking), cleanses, CC, anti-projectile, healing … oh and summoned weapons (for now) so that us poor peasant classes can do more solid damage.

I look at that and always think that it’s no bloody wonder that in both sets of 5-man content (PvE and sPvP) that Elementalists are commonly doubled up on … and part of WvW GWEN … because, heck, can’t be “average” in any part of the game.

Heck, if you got all that from one good player … why wouldn’t you want 40% of your group to be that …

Well this is pretty sad, a profession with low health and low armor should at least pack a punch.

I have no issue with them packing a punch, Aesa. I have an issue with them packing a punch on top of that whole list of things that follows “damage” … you know … the boons, conditions, cleanses, CC, anti-projectile, healing, etc..

Fay.2357:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

Coefficients didn’t change (except Ranger runes getting nerfed), but this thread looks like a worldwide revelation about mesmer in PvE. ><"

I was actually under the impression that with all 3 phantasms up mesmer had slightly higher dps than most classes. This shows that even with all 3 up (which is only possible on maybe 10% of encounters in the game) mesmer only just evens out.

True that, had that impression at some point too, then stoped caring.

I wouldn’t say it’s night impossible to keep 3 phantasms up, it’s rather the low hp/high quantity of mobs that just melts our single-target damage resources. Add to that unreliability “ramp up time” and you have your low-mid tier DPS.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

True that, had that impression at some point too, then stoped caring.

I wouldn’t say it’s night impossible to keep 3 phantasms up, it’s rather the low hp/high quantity of mobs that just melts our single-target damage resources. Add to that unreliability “ramp up time” and you have your low-mid tier DPS.

Sometimes I get my mesmer out to do dungeons, fractals and general PvE, I last about an hour before I set her crying in a corner and switch to a more PvE friendly class. =’(

Fay.2357:

frifoxy.6014:

In ANet’s eyes, a class with excellent array of amazing utility (debatable) surpassing other classes dps even if only under ideal conditions, is a big no no…

This would make more sense if the full depth and breadth of mesmer utility was actually needed in dungeons.

Also, would be cool if they didn’t keep nerfing reflects. Seems like every time I enter a dungeon, something I used to be able to reflect just ignores it.

That, or bring interrupts back as something to use against bosses.

With defiance getting reworked, it may not be something that has the direct intended effect (kind of the point of the defiance mechanic in the first place), but a secret hope of mine is that they’ll start letting class traits trigger on effects that are normally nullified as a result of the defiance mechanic with the rework – ideally, something that would flash the “Interrupt!” message and give the other side effects, but in reality reduce the boss’s defiance bar. Double especially since we’re seeing defiance on a lot of mobs that didn’t have defiance previously – veterans, normal mobs, hordes, etc. If not on the initial hit, then at the very least trigger it for anyone who’s contributed to the defiance bar once its been depleted.

At some level, defiance is justifiable on a boss with the school of thought that there needs to be certain points in the game where familiar mechanics normally used to succeed on an encounter are thrown out of the window to get players to think outside the box. Bosses are a great place for those moments, because they exist primarily as a staple of the level leading up to them, and having those restrictions makes it that much clearer to the player how awesome they are at beating that level. But now this is going to happen for just about everything in the expansion, which will make those traits downright misleading in PvE if something isn’t done.

But yeah, reflect nerfs are annoying if for no other reason than the consistency issues it brings up. Gone are the days of visual queues signifying how to react to an encounter on the fly – just try everything the first time, see what sticks, and let folks know on the wiki/forums/youtube/anything outside of the game what the game isn’t going to show you directly.

maha.7902:

Morfedel.4165:

Thats funny. I do very well in pvp, wvw, and pve with my mesmer. yawn

that’s cool, how many times though have you seen death and taxes associated with wvw and pvp though?

yeah, that’s what I thought.

so how’s your wvw and pvp experience relevant to a thread discussing full phantasm uptime and the DPS it is capable of?

What you don’t get is that there are more to phantasms than just putting out damage.

For one, you can cloak and hide while your phantasms continue to put out damage. I have a build that I based off PU, but instead of on death clone stuff, I went with phantasm buffs, whatever I could put in while cloaked. Conditions, etc, let my phantasmal duelists pick at whoever i’m fighting. with phantasmal fury and sharper images, each shot has a solid chance of critting for bleeding too.

Or the berserker. Four hits, four chances of bleeding, plus crippling.

I"m just throwing out a couple examples. Obviously there are others. Obviously other classes also have their synergies.

But all you are complaining about is the sheer numbers of our dps at best equals others. It ignores other factors.

Including, for example, extra targets. Doesnt help against large AOEs, but against single target attacks, phantasms can sometimes grab aggro from other enemies.

You’re thinking two dimensionally. Its not just about DPS. So, yes, its very relevant, thank you very much. Honestly, I’m not the best memser around, but I do pretty darned good with it, so I’m tempted to say this is a l2p issue. Learn that the class is more than just pumping out dps.

which is why I think its just fine to use my anecdotal evidence. If I do fine, and others also do fine, then it really isn’t a real issue to get worked up over. shrug

Sebrent.3625:

You doing well somewhere is anecdotal so doesn’t really help much with the discussion.

Sure, its anecdotal. But simply crunching numbers doesn’t give the full picture either. Fact is, we also bring things to the table that others don’t.

Morfedel.4165:

maha.7902:

Morfedel.4165:

Thats funny. I do very well in pvp, wvw, and pve with my mesmer. yawn

that’s cool, how many times though have you seen death and taxes associated with wvw and pvp though?

yeah, that’s what I thought.

so how’s your wvw and pvp experience relevant to a thread discussing full phantasm uptime and the DPS it is capable of?

What you don’t get is that there are more to phantasms than just putting out damage.

And what you don’t get is that the only thing that matters in PvE is the damage.

Your zerker crippled mobs and put a couple stacks of no damage bleeds on it? Congratulations I guess…It’s not like the mobs are moving anyway, so cripple doesn’t do anything, and unless you’re specced into condie damage (hint: don’t do this), your bleeds do nothing.

If you’re using a PU phantasm build in PvE, you’re making an enormous mistake. There’s absolutely no content in this game that justifies traiting PU.

Lastly, I’ll just say this again: Nobody cares about what you’re doing if you can’t do damage. If you bring a ton of utility and no damage…too bad, you’re not worth a spot on a team. Mesmers have ‘just’ enough damage to scrape by and justify spots on a team because of the crazy things they can do with portal.

Morfedel.4165:

Honestly, I’m not the best memser around, but I do pretty darned good with it, so I’m tempted to say this is a l2p issue. Learn that the class is more than just pumping out dps.

The main mistake you’re making here is coming into a thread discussing mesmer damage in dungeons and thinking that your open world PvE, PvP, and WvW experience have more than zero bearing on it. Can mesmer do a lot more than purely pump out dps? Sure they can. Does anyone care in dungeons? Not really. If you can’t pump out the dps while doing other things, then you’re dead weight on the team. They could bring a guardian instead, since guardians do most of what mesmers do and have high dps at the same time.

Edit: It’s also amusing that you’re telling maha that he should l2p mesmer better. He’s been one of the best (if not always the most diplomatic) PvE mesmers for probably longer than you’ve played this game.

In no properly (or even reasonably) balanced MMO has a hybrid/utility ever matched a pure DPS. Ever. It’s been that way for at least 16 years and will remain that way probably forever.

The Mesmer is not a DPS class. It never was. The three main DPS classes are Thief, Warrior and Elementalist. Others can come close, but the more utility they have the farther behind they fall. if you’re in a group/guild that ONLY cares about numbers then you should bail ASAP. They either A) Treat the game like a job or have no appreciation for that one guy that is protecting them, helping them or is the only one left alive after they all croaked and ends up soloing the last 20-50% of a boss because the rest of them don’t know how to play.

Anyone that compares Mesmer DPS to an actual DPS class needs to play another (non-MMO) type of game. Age of Wushu is good if you have the ping, that entire game is based around PvP and pure DPS

And what you don’t get is that the only thing that matters in PvE is the damage.

So we should go ahead and remove a bunch of condis then. For example, chill obviously is worthless, because it isn’t damage, right? And maybe we should get rid of all the boons that dont do damage: protection, regeneration, aegis, blah blah blah.

Your zerker crippled mobs and put a couple stacks of no damage bleeds on it? Congratulations I guess…It’s not like the mobs are moving anyway, so cripple doesn’t do anything, and unless you’re specced into condie damage (hint: don’t do this), your bleeds do nothing.

If you’re using a PU phantasm build in PvE, you’re making an enormous mistake. There’s absolutely no content in this game that justifies traiting PU.

I did say it was an example, and yeah, the cripple is a weak example in dungeons. However, the point being that you are flat out wrong, more than dps matters.

And it’s funny. I just used phantasmal mage, PU, and phantasmal warden in a dungeon and ended up fighting a boss that slaughtered the rest of the group. Good group, bad timing this time around, something went wrong. The boss was injured, but not dead, Kept running around resurrecting group members while firing out phantasms. And it worked just fine.

So, yeah, actually it DID work. But you know, its easy to handwave and ignore evidence when it’s anecdotal.

But you know, worked for me.

Morfedel.4165:

Honestly, I’m not the best memser around, but I do pretty darned good with it, so I’m tempted to say this is a l2p issue. Learn that the class is more than just pumping out dps.

The main mistake you’re making here is coming into a thread discussing mesmer damage in dungeons and thinking that your open world PvE, PvP, and WvW experience have more than zero bearing on it. Can mesmer do a lot more than purely pump out dps? Sure they can. Does anyone care in dungeons? Not really. If you can’t pump out the dps while doing other things, then you’re dead weight on the team. They could bring a guardian instead, since guardians do most of what mesmers do and have high dps at the same time.

Edit: It’s also amusing that you’re telling maha that he should l2p mesmer better. He’s been one of the best (if not always the most diplomatic) PvE mesmers for probably longer than you’ve played this game.

Been playing since beta. Stop assuming things. Unless he was playing since alpha he HASNT been playing longer than me, and he HASNT that much more experience even then. But great way to make assumptions without even bothering to find out first. Makes you look like a fool.

DPS isn’t the god you make it. Its important, sure, but there are other things too. So, yeah. I stand by what i said. If i can keep playing in dungeons successfully, and do well, then yeah, its just fine.

You can tell me I’m wrong all you want, you can tell me my experience is anecdotal, but I do dungeon runs all the time with my mesmer and its just fine. And there have been times when something went wrong, and I’ve very often been the last one standing. I can solo many of the bosses in the dungeons too. Not all, granted, but many.

If mesmers suck so bad, that shouldn’t be possible.

So, yeah, L2P, accuse me of lying, whatever. But I stand by what I’ve done.

And seriously, longer than i’ve been playing the game? LMFAO!!!

EDIT: Yes mesmer DPS isnt as good as some others. But it doesn’t have to be. Each class brings something to the table, and if you really do think DPS is the only important aspect of the game, then you’re severely limiting yourself.

Miku Lawrence.6329:

I wouldn’t say it’s night impossible to keep 3 phantasms up, it’s rather the low hp/high quantity of mobs that just melts our single-target damage resources. Add to that unreliability “ramp up time” and you have your low-mid tier DPS.

Truth.

Morfedel.4165:

So we should go ahead and remove a bunch of condis then. For example, chill obviously is worthless, because it isn’t damage, right? And maybe we should get rid of all the boons that dont do damage: protection, regeneration, aegis, blah blah blah.

Obviously all those things are important. But you know what’s more important? Dps. Prot and aegis are supplied mainly by guardians doing high dps. Eles do a lot of chill and regen….while doing top dps in the game. Yeah, all those things are important…but they’re brought by classes that already do a ton of dps.

Morfedel.4165:

And it’s funny. I just used phantasmal mage, PU, and phantasmal warden in a dungeon and ended up fighting a boss that slaughtered the rest of the group. Good group, bad timing this time around, something went wrong. The boss was injured, but not dead, Kept running around resurrecting group members while firing out phantasms. And it worked just fine.

So here’s the thing that you’re forgetting. Using a normal, non-awful dungeon build…you could have done literally the same thing. You could have run around picking up your teammates if necessary. However…if you had used a normal, non-awful dungeon build, you probably wouldn’t have had the fight go so badly. Using PU, phantasmal mage, and warden now and then means you were contributing marginally more dps than someone afk at the start of the dungeon. Your team carried you through every fight, with you contributing nothing other than ressing people that died.

Now, you can argue about how your ‘no dps but totally useful’ dungeon build is great until you’re blue in the face, but it’s not going to change the fact that you’re wrong. The dungeon meta is extremely locked into place right now. Many people have tried many things, and they’ve arrived at the best builds and comps. No matter how much you may not like it, dps is father, son, and holy ghost of this mmo trinity. If you don’t bring dps, you are a waste of a slot on a team.

Mmmkay, I’m gonna end this thread here.

1) Fay: I have played MMOs for 16 years (no, that is not a typo) and can tell you for a FACT that you are wrong. I could list a slew of reasons but honestly, my time is better spent doing less boring things.
2) There is no sense arguing with Fay because he/she is dead-set on their opinion and will not listen to reason

There will always be 2 types of people: those who treat a game like a job (do it as quickly and efficiently as possible) and play to inflate some sort of online ego while thinking others care about their ‘achievements’ or ‘power’, and those that play games to have fun and like to explore different facets/possibilities within a game. While these two types can co-exist, they are much like oil & water: they may blend when shaken hard enough but they never truly combine well

Yakubyogami.7586:

In no properly (or even reasonably) balanced MMO has a hybrid/utility ever matched a pure DPS. Ever. It’s been that way for at least 16 years and will remain that way probably forever.

The Mesmer is not a DPS class. It never was. The three main DPS classes are Thief, Warrior and Elementalist. Others can come close, but the more utility they have the farther behind they fall. if you’re in a group/guild that ONLY cares about numbers then you should bail ASAP. They either A) Treat the game like a job or have no appreciation for that one guy that is protecting them, helping them or is the only one left alive after they all croaked and ends up soloing the last 20-50% of a boss because the rest of them don’t know how to play.

Anyone that compares Mesmer DPS to an actual DPS class needs to play another (non-MMO) type of game. Age of Wushu is good if you have the ping, that entire game is based around PvP and pure DPS

You do realize the core of this game was designed on the principle that there are no hybrids, pure dps, support classes, healers, tanks, etc. You’re telling others they need to go play a different game…I think you have that backwards. Every class in this game is designed to do all of these things at once. The design is such that every class can shift their focus, to an extent, more towards one or more of these extremes…but can never completely ignore any of these aspects. The focus of this thread was just an analysis of the dps side of mesmers when compared to other classes…and the viability of the ramp up required just to break even. This thread appears to be just to shine a spotlight on the inequity of the design…which is real.

Yakubyogami.7586:

1) Fay: I have played MMOs for 16 years (no, that is not a typo) and can tell you for a FACT that you are wrong. I could list a slew of reasons but honestly, my time is better spent doing less boring things.

Really now? So you’ve played MMOs for 16 years, and you’re trying to apply the PvE metas that existed in those games to the MMO that explicitly has removed the normal holy trinity from their game? Don’t make me laugh. There’s a good reason why DnT and all the other dungeon running guilds run absolutely maximum dps builds on every person in their group.

Yakubyogami.7586:

There will always be 2 types of people: those who treat a game like a job (do it as quickly and efficiently as possible) and play to inflate some sort of online ego while thinking others care about their ‘achievements’ or ‘power’, and those that play games to have fun and like to explore different facets/possibilities within a game. While these two types can co-exist, they are much like oil & water: they may blend when shaken hard enough but they never truly combine well

So basically what you’re saying in this paragraph is ’You’re right, but I don’t like to play efficiently, and so I’m going to pretend that you’re wrong’.

I honestly don’t have a problem with people that play inefficient builds in PvE…as long as they recognize that they’re playing an inefficient build, but play it anyway because of (insert reason here). What I dislike are people who come around and tout their builds as the apex of PvE performance, when really they’re just bad builds that they enjoy using.

No, what I am saying it that you are wrong. Period. I made that pretty clear, and you don’t need to be an English major to understand it.

Large ‘raid’ guilds share one theme: they treat games like jobs. It’s been that way forever. Room for error is minimal, gameplay is theorycrafted (something that you simply cannot apply support roles to) and most of the players have similar (or exact) builds.

Not everyone likes to get off work, go home and return to another job. Just because you have numbers to say X is better than Y does not mean it is. In a purely mathematical world where everything can be assigned a numeric value, sure, but when you deal with things like a MMO that is much, much harder. In fact, the only real metric people go buy is, surprise surprise, DPS. I have seen SO MANY groups fail because no one bothers to use tactics, support or even think.

If you want to treat GW2 like a job and get through as much content as quickly as you can to amass virtual currency to buy virtual items to feed your kitten that no one really cares about then yes, your are right and non-DPS builds are useless. If you want to play a game to have fun, help other people have their fun (even if they run a Zerker build) by playing support (if that’s your thing) and explore a game’s potential then you are very, very incorrect.

It boils down to perception. But if all you want to do is treat a game like work then any game works. And as far as your ‘LOL, they removed the trinity so your argument is invalid’ commentary, they removed the trinity because too many people were either like you and solely DPS-focused or forced by people like you to be solely DPS-focused, not because it didn’t work.

And if DPS is the only factor then please explain to me why Guardians are so desirable in fractals. No, really, go ahead because their DPS can’t regularly match that of a Zerker Warrior, even if the Guard is Zerker themselves.

Oh, and one final thing before I log off for the night… saying that only DPS classes and meta builds for said classes are relevant to play is a major insult to the designers that added classes that can heal, support, etc.

Yakubyogami.7586:

No, what I am saying it that you are wrong. Period. I made that pretty clear, and you don’t need to be an English major to understand it.

Glad you were able to make that clear. Next time, try making the why clearer than the statement, and you might have more success.

Yakubyogami.7586:

Large ‘raid’ guilds share one theme: they treat games like jobs. It’s been that way forever. Room for error is minimal, gameplay is theorycrafted (something that you simply cannot apply support roles to) and most of the players have similar (or exact) builds.

This is very true. What is also true is that those builds and comps the guilds use are generally the very best possible to use. They’ve tried and tested everything, and settled on the best option.

Yakubyogami.7586:

Not everyone likes to get off work, go home and return to another job. Just because you have numbers to say X is better than Y does not mean it is.

Actually…yes it does. It doesn’t mean it’ll be more fun to play, or that you personally will enjoy it more, but it does mean it’ll perform better.

Yakubyogami.7586:

I have seen SO MANY groups fail because no one bothers to use tactics, support or even think.

You’re sounding a bit silly here. You appear to be operating under the assumption that the top dungeon running guilds fail to take any of that into consideration, when really the opposite is the case. A standard dungeon running comp not only has maximize dps, but plentiful access to condition removals, mob control, boon strip, and reflects. The key is that those by themselves aren’t good enough, you need dps with them.

Yakubyogami.7586:

And if DPS is the only factor then please explain to me why Guardians are so desirable in fractals. No, really, go ahead because their DPS can’t regularly match that of a Zerker Warrior, even if the Guard is Zerker themselves.

Guardians have extremely comparable damage to that of a zerker warrior, which has extremely comparable damage to that of a zerker ele. Mesmer, on the other hand…doesn’t have even close to comparable damage unless maintaining 3 phants. Obviously, as I’ve stated multiple times, dungeons do require various bits of utility and support. The key, as I’ve stated again multiple times, is that unless that utility comes with a ton of dps, it’s not worth taking.

Yakubyogami.7586:

Oh, and one final thing before I log off for the night… saying that only DPS classes and meta builds for said classes are relevant to play is a major insult to the designers that added classes that can heal, support, etc.

I think you might be on the wrong game forums. See, here’s the interesting thing about GW2 that makes it substantially different from all other MMOs: every class can dps, every class can support (necros are special). You seem to be confused about this fact, going on about support classes and heal classes and dps classes. GW2 is not WoW. If you want to whinge about the holy trinity of heal, dps, and tank…go back to WoW. The GW2 Holy trinity is dps, dps, and dps. Everyone dpses, and between the 5 people in a party, you get all the utility and support you need.

Something interesting here: ANet did unintentionally create a new role (almost powerful enough for a meta? idk) for mesmer in the past, back when power block can bypass defiance and delay NPC attacks. Thus creates a unique role for mesmer……for about few days before they hotfix it. Now it can’t do either, so I guess dps it is lol.

This thread became a gem, thanks Yakubyogami.7586 !

Whether or not you play how you want … that’s great … but not a pertinent point.

The point is that those that want to play truly competitively can’t due to the imbalance, or they have to work drastically harder just to keep up with their peers … which doesn’t leave you with a good feeling afterwards.

If you couldn’t play the way you wanted due to something, you’d speak up as well … let’s look at your post history.

I couldn’t care less about ..

• How long you’ve played MMOs … means nothing and plenty of us have for almost 2 decades now.
• You play how you want … don’t most people if not everyone?
• Your opinion on “elitists” … crunching numbers to compare things is not elitist … it’s math. Math isn’t elitist.

These are also just rehashes of the arguments of a child …

• I know what I’m doing/talking about!
• I do what I want!
• You’re just mean! (or elitist, lol).

Thanks to Miku for the BINGO card that makes the posts containing these things not completely inane … got some humor out of them this time at least.

Some people measure their “success” by whether or not they actually finished the dungeon … because that’s challenging enough for them.

Other people measure their “success” by how quickly they can finish the dungeon … because that’s what is challenging enough for them … and it’s even been made part of the game by ArenaNet.

tobascodagama.2961:

The flip side of the same problem is that we also need Phantasms to provide support and utility, which further cuts us off from using our Shatters. If you shatter your iWarden, he’s not reflecting projectiles, right?

Curiously, the devs don’t seem to realize – or the cost or disruption of the change is deemed too high – that since both sides are flawed, the only proper fix would be to simply move Shatters off our class mechanic, and move (probably) Clones and Phantasms onto it (after all, they’re already sort-of the main class mechanic, just not the class bar).

Shatters are not context-free. As a result, they make for a really really odd class bar. Other class bars are context-free, they work independent of the state of your character, or said state is inherently part of the class bar (example Adrenaline).
Shatter instead relies on a separate set of abilities to even be usable. Even Necromancers can generate their Life Force without being required to use specific abilities.

My proposal, in way-too-short-summary, would be:

• Move Shatter off the class bar, and onto weapon skills. Each use shatters 1 clone or phantasm, preferring clones, for a specific effect on a set short CD.
• Move clone and phantasm generation onto the class bar. The specific type of phantasm created would depend on weapon used. Defender and Disenchanter would instead become shatter skills which remove conditions or absorb damage. F1-F4 generate different amounts and sets of clones/phantasms on separate CDs.
• Rebalance traits accordingly.