Guild Wars 2

just watch some of the ESL fights with TCG and i am speculating that the sustain dps of power might be lower then the condi in some scenarios

sustain dps – dmg over the time of the fight and not a burst

here is the examples (play with guildy who tried mtd also. i didnt try to go for the win just to cap moments in 2 tpvp fights for dmg, but we won)

(why am i the only one who puts mtd condi videos)

Let the debate begin!

Yea I can totally see the famous lord Helseth first autoattacking 1200 range with gs and staff to a cele warrior (who btw was dodging and moving and using skills) , then shattering HUGE BURST with clones walking 1km from him to the warrior , shattering one by one with 1 minute intervals

Then you somehow think videos of you

1) Killing a sad thief WHO DID NOT DODGE ONCE from stealth in melee range
2) Killing a sad nec WHO DID NOT DODGE ONCE in melee range
3) Killing a sad STATIONARY warrior IN 2v1 situation

is somehow proof (?) of MtD dmg being higher than power shatter….

This vid, like the other ones you’ve posted previously, just made me laugh…

I don’t have enough experience in sPvP to give an opinion about this.

But yeah, the video was very biased. You should’ve just left out the small power shatter part or made a fair comparison.

Not going to lie, while I always enjoy your videos, the enemies in them tend to not be… the best. lol I keep saying I’m going to learn how to do videos, and I keep procrastinating. Ross is going to force me one of these days!! But once I do, you guys will see MtD rekt good players.

MailMail.6534:

Not going to lie, while I always enjoy your videos, the enemies in them tend to not be… the best. lol I keep saying I’m going to learn how to do videos, and I keep procrastinating. Ross is going to force me one of these days!! But once I do, you guys will see MtD rekt good players.

I believe in you.

Of course if you rek the players they’re obviously bad, probably hot join daily pve scrub farmers or something. If they dodge once or twice MAYBE it’s their second time in a pvp match. I think the only way to prove yourself/your build around here is to post vids of yourself getting rekt. But then, wait a minute… how does this work again?….

Maybe, just maybe the effectiveness of a build and the player using it can be seen regardless of if the opponents faced does well against or not. Goods are obviously good, and bads are obviously bad, but I for one understand my ability at least to see effectiveness (or not) regardless of the particular performance of the opponents shown in any particular video. At least in so far as the claims of the demonstrater go (which lets be honest, have been nothing short of modest at best). If you lack the ability to do this I have to presume ignorance. There’s certainly a frivolous case of Tall Poppy Syndrome roaming this board at the moment. Ohwell, such is life. Best just get on and play.

The main difference between MtD and power shatter is the skill cap. If you are the best you can be with your mesmer game, then the power shatter is for you. Like most glassy full zerk builds it is only worth it if you can stay alive the majority of time to do the damage. If you are turning up everyday on your power shatter build and getting ruined and never learning then yes, its time to change your build and find something that you are more comfortable with.

The player once again is much more important than the build itself, that being said, if you prefer MtD, phantasms, mantras, PU or whatever, then that is the build for you.

Milamberr.1705:

The main difference between MtD and power shatter is the skill cap. If you are the best you can be with your mesmer game, then the power shatter is for you. Like most glassy full zerk builds it is only worth it if you can stay alive the majority of time to do the damage. If you are turning up everyday on your power shatter build and getting ruined and never learning then yes, its time to change your build and find something that you are more comfortable with.

The player once again is much more important than the build itself, that being said, if you prefer MtD, phantasms, mantras, PU or whatever, then that is the build for you.

Exactly. Though there’s much to be said between the crossover between play style, build choice, and what’s achievable with that combination. Usual case in point is the ability to stand on point vs not. With long reaching ramifications.

Ross Biddle.2367:

MailMail.6534:

Not going to lie, while I always enjoy your videos, the enemies in them tend to not be… the best. lol I keep saying I’m going to learn how to do videos, and I keep procrastinating. Ross is going to force me one of these days!! But once I do, you guys will see MtD rekt good players.

I believe in you.

Of course if you rek the players they’re obviously bad, probably hot join daily pve scrub farmers or something. If they dodge once or twice MAYBE it’s their second time in a pvp match. I think the only way to prove yourself/your build around here is to post vids of yourself getting rekt. But then, wait a minute… how does this work again?….

Maybe, just maybe the effectiveness of a build and the player using it can be seen regardless of if the opponents faced does well against or not. Goods are obviously good, and bads are obviously bad, but I for one understand my ability at least to see effectiveness (or not) regardless of the particular performance of the opponents shown in any particular video. At least in so far as the claims of the demonstrater go (which lets be honest, have been nothing short of modest at best). If you lack the ability to do this I have to presume ignorance. There’s certainly a frivolous case of Tall Poppy Syndrome roaming this board at the moment. Ohwell, such is life. Best just get on and play.

Cut to the chase, so are the ones on the vid bad? Your post is too deep for me to understand. No sarcasm intended from me.

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

MailMail.6534:

Not going to lie, while I always enjoy your videos, the enemies in them tend to not be… the best. lol I keep saying I’m going to learn how to do videos, and I keep procrastinating. Ross is going to force me one of these days!! But once I do, you guys will see MtD rekt good players.

I believe in you.

Of course if you rek the players they’re obviously bad, probably hot join daily pve scrub farmers or something. If they dodge once or twice MAYBE it’s their second time in a pvp match. I think the only way to prove yourself/your build around here is to post vids of yourself getting rekt. But then, wait a minute… how does this work again?….

Maybe, just maybe the effectiveness of a build and the player using it can be seen regardless of if the opponents faced does well against or not. Goods are obviously good, and bads are obviously bad, but I for one understand my ability at least to see effectiveness (or not) regardless of the particular performance of the opponents shown in any particular video. At least in so far as the claims of the demonstrater go (which lets be honest, have been nothing short of modest at best). If you lack the ability to do this I have to presume ignorance. There’s certainly a frivolous case of Tall Poppy Syndrome roaming this board at the moment. Ohwell, such is life. Best just get on and play.

Cut to the chase, so are the ones on the vid bad? Your post is too deep for me to understand. No sarcasm intended from me.

In that vid? Eh, mixed? I didn’t analyze it to closely. But come on Stickers, you know the answer to this. You’re a good PvP’r. But even on your best day you’ve missed a dodge, or gone out of your way to trial an experimental build. I’d bet money that you’ve even been hazed by teammates or enemies for being “bad” because of your performance under these circumstances. Really though it’s a case of kitten happens. Of course on daily Mesmer or Ranger day you can have pro players on alts they have almost no experience with, or are taking a fun kitten y setup to get the job done with a bit o’fun (kshot war, zerk staff ele, anyone?). Or you could have great players come up against great players that get caught out, outplayed, or hard countered by build/class because, again, kitten happens.

When any of this stuff is caught as footage its easy for people to simply stick up their nose, dust their shoulder, and call what they see caught on vids bad. It’s very easy to judge, it’s not as easy to judge soundly. Note the very general conclusions that were made when they were made.

As a side, it’s helpful to post entire match threads (or at least all successive encounters regardless of outcome) than straight up win montages. Unless you’re doing it for some reason like to demonstrate numbers, combos, or class matchups.

i put out the vid to show the DMG not my or the enemy skill
one of the warrior dodge once – didnt helped him at all. the other warrior used shouts and get off the point cause of the pressure.
the warrior cleanse 3 times ( which you fail to see it) and 3 times got conditions on him
the thief and necro was so want to burst me i felt it was the right time to shatter leading to the thief death (and mine cause i didnt press the swap target and used moa on a almost dead thief)

it seems that you think that good or great player can dodge every shatter or cleanse right away. good player versus good player can stack shatter and conditions like in power shatter good player can dodge the shatter block it etc…

regarding skill cap – power shatter is hard i know and felt it and can be boring. but the most hard part is to learn how to catch the right moment to shatter your enemy for huge burst and not to get spotted by the enemy.
in MTD because you take more risks like dive in and shatter you need to be more careful. also need to avoid being spotted. need to know when to fint the right moment and stand on aoe and block it to proc torment etc…
i put helseth moments because in every tournament i failed to see high dmg out of his build (he is the greatest player for sure) but guardian just dodge his shatter his AA is weak 300 dmg from staff and from GS 2k dmg which lead to lower dps. sure 1v1 i dont want to handle this guy but in team fight even LB ranger can do better (check the seconds fight of them as the thief change to ranger)

i just want to show you that you can pull out some nice dmg from conditions
even if its for 1 tick its can be 2-3k dmg like the power one.

i am not trying to be best at 1v1 in fact put me in king of the hill and i will loose
but i like more team fight where i can target the ranger from the cliff and shatter his face 2 times for 4-10k dmg while he is pew pew till he understand he need to bail off
i like to catch the ele on water and using heal skill and use confusion of him and shatter right after he swap attunments forcing him to bail off the point for 3-5 sec
basically i look how i can take an enemy and and disable him for couple of seconds with confusion – dont use skill, torment – dont move, burning – must to cleanse etc…

i dont think whole of the players are bad. i think they just dont used to handle so much conditions pressure as every build as some mention got only 1 cleasne utility.

and pls mailmail put your vids up asap

messiah.1908:

i put out the vid to show the DMG not my or the enemy skill

See, devils in the details, and context is everything. Haters were so quick to scream “bias!”, all the while inserting their own bias into their knee jerk responses. It’s easy to judge, not so easy to judge soundly.

Ross Biddle.2367:

messiah.1908:

i put out the vid to show the DMG not my or the enemy skill

See, devils in the details, and context is everything. Haters were so quick to scream “bias!”, all the while inserting their own bias into their knee jerk responses. It’s easy to judge, not so easy to judge soundly.

Do you seriously think that video was a fair comparison between power shatter and MtD, and not biased at all? A simple yes or no.
He took a short clip where Helseth(?) was stuck in staff against some of the best players to represent power shatter. And then best fights from… dunno how many days of footage(edit: reread the OP, and it’s from 2 fights. my point still stands though) against random pugs to represent MtD.

I’m not taking sides on this debate. I love both builds and I hope MtD is very viable in high level tPvP, it’s absolutely amazing in WvW. But if that video isn’t biased I don’t know what is.
If he had just cut off the power shatter part and named the video “damage with MtD”, I would’ve just said “ok, that’s cool”. But that kinda video is almost lying, and it kittenes me off.

Ross Biddle.2367:

messiah.1908:

i put out the vid to show the DMG not my or the enemy skill

See, devils in the details, and context is everything. Haters were so quick to scream “bias!”, all the while inserting their own bias into their knee jerk responses. It’s easy to judge, not so easy to judge soundly.

Even the title of the topic is “Damage – MtD condi versus power” saying this is a comparison. Then what you show on the vid is:

Power: basically autoattack from max range without burst or melee gs on a heavily armored top tier player. This is like 10% of the dmg the build can do.

Condi: full melee range range shatters hitting r1 noobs who eat up everything, don’t cleanse and just die.

You can call me a hater if you like but I don’t even hate the condi build. I hate the exaggerated claims being made about this build, and the false claims about power shatter. This biased video and the “mtd versus power damage” is nothing but a joke.

I can only imagine how much you fanboys would cry if I made a similar video other way around and then call it a legit comparison or proof of how power > mtd. In the vid I’d first be autoattacking with a scepter from 900 range and doing a lazy shatter that barely connects dealing negligible damage. Then swapping to power and using it up to it’s full potential murdering ppl, one shot some poor thief and a ranger.

Sure the condi is dealing a lot of damage but the situation is perfect, you could do this with any build: put up 3 wardens and then slow-mo on the damage numbers when they all hit some stationary target yey.

guys you took it way way way

days of footage – didnt – took it from the youtube from the last ESL and watch helseth almost in every fight he had in the ESL. check it too if you like you may see 1-2 burst dmg but all the rest is the same . i looked for his higher dmg he put out and put it in.

sure you can put power burst which will show 10k dmg rotation and that is fine and cool
i just manage to show the same . it doesnt matter if the player is good or bad.

ITS dmg demonstartion ppl! sure i can do 500 dmg or 3000 dmg or even no dmg at all

you never hear me saying condi is better or superior

sry if my english is not so well but i say condi versus power
not condi better then power

so i think you make an assumptions

but pls make a video of power shatter of 1 game and check your dps all over the game period. you will see very low dps compare to condi. but i am sure your effectivness in the game can be better then condi or even the same

Wile – you basicaly saying that against heavy armor helseth shouldnt have engage at all or try to burst with F1 F2 gs attacks but as condi which ignore armor mmm….

and again top tier player versus top tier player
me – low-mid player versus low-mid players ( or am i top tier who play in the lower tier lol)

Yawn… How is this any of a comparison? In fact, why should anyone take you serious if you can’t even klick the right shatter, but instead waste your most important shatter vs a thief?
Actually went to check your history of posts and by the looks of it this is what you have been playing for the past 1-1.5 year:
P/D perplexity thief
PU condi mesmer
Condi shatter mesmer

No wonder you don’t do good on any power spec.

messiah.1908:

Wile – you basicaly saying that against heavy armor helseth shouldnt have engage at all or try to burst with F1 F2 gs attacks but as condi which ignore armor mmm….

I’m definitely not saying the first thing at all, and I can’t say for what helseth was doing in that clip… waiting for an opportunity perhaps? There’s a cele warrior backed up by a guardian in the clip, condibuild would have done absolutely nothing in that situation too.

Then when you think about the game outside of that small clip.. if helseth would have gone with your MtD build, he’d have less range, less interrupts, no illusory persona, no boon removal on shatter, slower burst making him less useful through the whole game. This agrees with your comment on effectiveness:

but pls make a video of power shatter of 1 game and check your dps all over the game period. you will see very low dps compare to condi. but i am sure your effectivness in the game can be better then condi or even the same

I’ve played both builds, and I didn’t notice a huge difference in damage like you claim: VERY LOW DPS COMPARED TO CONDI. Both seemed to be able to dish out similar lvls of pure damage in a straight up fight. But then outside of the narrow damage perspective MtD was clearly inferior to power shatter for various reasons pointed out by me and others on multiple threads.

I might make a vid next week when I’m back to my PC if I have the time… In the meantime, If you just want to see good uses of power shatter against some good players, you could take a look at that wvw sunburst vid on the mesmer forum for example.

BlackDevil.9268

play i played with for the last 2 years as i mainly explore for new build

p/d thief full venom share – panicond – my build
p/d power build
pu condi mesmer – hardly for short time just to experiment
hybrid med guard – in tpvp also after played power med guard
condi guard – in wvw
power ranger
condi ranger
trap power thief
s/d/f ele
condi full signets ele
power shatter for a year – like every build out there so i dont have any comment to add on it
d/p thief
s/d thief even before it came the meta
power necro
condi necro
hardly warrior as i got bored with it
no engi for me yet

so i might have good idea about condition and power build as well
it just seem you just overlooked the power ones

and Wile.5024
i watched the vid and how can you tell the thieves or rangers etc were good if they got burst down in 5 sec. maybe they just were noobish like all wvw players… sarcasm ….
but the burst omg 3k-4k dps !!!

Shatter is not there for sustain DPS, it is there for burst that is the first thing you got very wrong.
Condi shatter compared to power is nothing. The players in your video were really bad. Keep in mind the people that Helseth is fighting have thousands of hours of high tier PvP experience. They aren’t Gods of course but it is really hard to get a good burst onto them because they are aware of whats going on and most importantly they know how to dodge stuff.
If condi was really better than power, trust me, Supcutie and Helseth would run it. They’ve extensively tested a lot of different mesmer builds and weapon sets to see what is best for top tier play and nothing beat power shatter.

What was done here was a clip of Helseth autoattacking Alkore who is a really good warrior (shoutbow so even more tanky) and + there was a lot of cleave around Alkore so his clones were getting destroyed then a clip of messiah just killing noname badies with a condi build which disregards armor in a 1v1. Thats nowhere near a fair comparison. If you compared Helseth getting a nice shatter combo off onto someone to what you did, I’d call it fair and it would be in favor of power shatter. You may argue that power is squishy so condi is automatically better. Power isn’t supposed to take damage/be on point in the first place so it is irrelevant. Condis can also be removed while power damage can not without using a heal which is also something you can do against condi. There are a ton of condi cleanses in todays teams with all these cele classes. You may say power can be dodged, but so can the condi application.
If you don’t care about playing at a higher/decent level, condi shatter will do, but beyond that you kinda have to go power shatter.
A good comparison would be this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQglrsPBeF0

Insta killed a thief in stealth. Probably not the best example but a much better one than the one you supplied.

messiah.1908:

and Wile.5024
i watched the vid and how can you tell the thieves or rangers etc were good if they got burst down in 5 sec. maybe they just were noobish like all wvw players… sarcasm ….
but the burst omg 3k-4k dps !!!

Hahahhaha take a look at the first 1v1 theif fight for example:

- Fight took over a minute NOT 5 SECONDS
- Several bursts were needed
- Both anticipate others movements and counter
- All skills and utilities are used
- Mesmer is at an disadvantage due to thief s/d
- Bursts did around 75% of thieves hp everytime, 80%+ the final blow THIS DOES NOT EQUAL 3000-4000hp You think straight up lying about the power damage is a good idea?

Your thief fight on the other hand: 10seconds, 1 diversion shatter (lol) from t4 stealth…. thief did not dodge or cleanse or do anything, he just spammed aa with confusion and run a circle before dying…

Both the mesmer and the s/d+p/p thief on the wvw sunburst vid show much more skill than you in any of your vids. Any player with at least some experience can see that right away.

Jurica.1742:

Shatter is not there for sustain DPS, it is there for burst that is the first thing you got very wrong.
Condi shatter compared to power is nothing. The players in your video were really bad. Keep in mind the people that Helseth is fighting have thousands of hours of high tier PvP experience. They aren’t Gods of course but it is really hard to get a good burst onto them because they are aware of whats going on and most importantly they know how to dodge stuff.
If condi was really better than power, trust me, Supcutie and Helseth would run it. They’ve extensively tested a lot of different mesmer builds and weapon sets to see what is best for top tier play and nothing beat power shatter.

What was done here was a clip of Helseth autoattacking Alkore who is a really good warrior (shoutbow so even more tanky) and + there was a lot of cleave around Alkore so his clones were getting destroyed then a clip of messiah just killing noname badies with a condi build which disregards armor in a 1v1. Thats nowhere near a fair comparison. If you compared Helseth getting a nice shatter combo off onto someone to what you did, I’d call it fair and it would be in favor of power shatter. You may argue that power is squishy so condi is automatically better. Power isn’t supposed to take damage/be on point in the first place so it is irrelevant. Condis can also be removed while power damage can not without using a heal which is also something you can do against condi. There are a ton of condi cleanses in todays teams with all these cele classes. You may say power can be dodged, but so can the condi application.
If you don’t care about playing at a higher/decent level, condi shatter will do, but beyond that you kinda have to go power shatter.
A good comparison would be this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQglrsPBeF0

Insta killed a thief in stealth. Probably not the best example but a much better one than the one you supplied.

Exactly this, I agree with everything you said.

Great clip too, hadn’t seen this one before… awesome he knew the result already when the first arrow was flying : D

The thief isn’t a bad player either, if Helseth had been running MtD in this clip he couldn’t have done anything to the thief…. immob would have been gone and thief again free to attack from stealth with distortion and one dodge gone on helseth.

Wile.5024:

messiah.1908:

and Wile.5024
i watched the vid and how can you tell the thieves or rangers etc were good if they got burst down in 5 sec. maybe they just were noobish like all wvw players… sarcasm ….
but the burst omg 3k-4k dps !!!

Hahahhaha take a look at the first 1v1 theif fight for example:

- Fight took over a minute NOT 5 SECONDS
- Several bursts were needed
- Both anticipate others movements and counter
- All skills and utilities are used
- Mesmer is at an disadvantage due to thief s/d
- Bursts did around 75% of thieves hp everytime, 80%+ the final blow THIS DOES NOT EQUAL 3000-4000hp You think straight up lying about the power damage is a good idea?

Your thief fight on the other hand: 10seconds, 1 diversion shatter (lol) from t4 stealth…. thief did not dodge or cleanse or do anything, he just spammed aa with confusion and run a circle before dying…

Both the mesmer and the s/d+p/p thief on the wvw sunburst vid show much more skill than you in any of your vids. Any player with at least some experience can see that right away.

wow common you see what you want to see

i was fighting 1v2 thief and power necro both burst high dmg in sec.
i said 3k-4k dps its mean dmg per second which is very high not total of 3-4k dmg

in sunburst vid the first fight was against mesmer and thief came and SR . common who SR on dead with gs mesmer out there and trying to res. and then third thief came with p/d and s/d mostly used p/d used SS and SR without needed them . so if using all your utilities making you good wow.

dont go there pls as i can see bad thieves or maybe thief who exploring power p/d instead
and i dont want to say anything about my opponents also.

messiah.1908:

i said 3k-4k dps its mean dmg per second which is very high not total of 3-4k dmg

I see, my mistake.

messiah.1908:

in sunburst vid the first fight was against mesmer and thief came and SR . common who SR on dead with gs mesmer out there and trying to res. and then third thief came with p/d and s/d mostly used p/d used SS and SR without needed them . so if using all your utilities making you good wow.

You also misread though, I did say “first 1v1 thief fight” so ignoring the 1v2 with bad players…. also yea it was p/d and not p/p.

Maybe not the most skilled thief but he’s not bad either, SS he used to get behind the mesmer, SR when <25% hp to heal up and attack from stealth so wouldn’t say they weren’t needed… And yes I’d take good use of utilities and all the skills and mechanics available to you as a sign of a good player.

Well its not hard to do what he did, while it is nice to see. I did it before as well, its very logical though.
Thief arrow from stealth always immobilizes. If he reflects it the thief will be immobilized where the arrow hit him which you are able to see. Then you just go there and do a shatter combo as if he was there.
My favorite thing to do with that reflect is reflect killshot if I see warriors that use it. At one point I had 2 warriors trying to killshot me (some troll group in unranked…), reflected it and they both got 1shot. Again, not hard to do but really nice to see done :P

Ok, so I’ve made my position on the viability of MtD shatter quite clear in the past: I feel that it is viable at any level outside of WTS play, along with every other reasonable mesmer build.

That being said, the “comparison” being shown this video is misleading at best, and a deliberate falsification at worst.

You’re comparing a 10 second clip of helseth being forced to autoattack from 1000 range due to heavy pressure on a point to a whole bunch of shatter bursts executed at close range under mostly light pressure. This is really no comparison at all, it just doesn’t make sense.

If you actually wanted to make a reasonable comparison of the best damage power shatter could offer, you’d have included snippets of Vashury deleting people, but that wouldn’t have made the point that you’re trying to make, would it have?

Ultimately, power shatter and MtD shatter fulfill substantially different roles, play substantially differently, apply substantially different types of pressure, and overall do damage in a substantially different way. Trying to directly compare the two for any reason is truly foolhardy.

Also.

BlackDevil.9268:

No wonder you don’t do good on any power spec.

Your ad hominems are getting real old BlackDevil. I’d recommend trying to come up with some real arguments in the future.

Pyroatheist/fay be like

PU condie is absolutely viable at any level outside of WTS competition. Source: I have played it there, successfully.

And also:
Unless this GW2score site is broken, your last game played with the previous rankings was ‘’2014-05-15’‘.
That’s almost over a year ago.

And you are supposing me to take you serious? I keep wondering: why do all these players supporting condi shatter and equaling it to power shatter, have so little experience?

Fay.2357:

Ok, so I’ve made my position on the viability of MtD shatter quite clear in the past: I feel that it is viable at any level outside of WTS play, along with every other reasonable mesmer build.

That being said, the “comparison” being shown this video is misleading at best, and a deliberate falsification at worst.

You’re comparing a 10 second clip of helseth being forced to autoattack from 1000 range due to heavy pressure on a point to a whole bunch of shatter bursts executed at close range under mostly light pressure. This is really no comparison at all, it just doesn’t make sense.

If you actually wanted to make a reasonable comparison of the best damage power shatter could offer, you’d have included snippets of Vashury deleting people, but that wouldn’t have made the point that you’re trying to make, would it have?

Ultimately, power shatter and MtD shatter fulfill substantially different roles, play substantially differently, apply substantially different types of pressure, and overall do damage in a substantially different way. Trying to directly compare the two for any reason is truly foolhardy.

Also.

BlackDevil.9268:

No wonder you don’t do good on any power spec.

Your ad hominems are getting real old BlackDevil. I’d recommend trying to come up with some real arguments in the future.

it wasnt my intentions to make a bias comparison but pls check all the ESL videoS where mesmer are out there . you wont see any different in most scenarios.
maybe its a problem with the mesmer being left out the meta but its more a thief game style and role.

i just tried to compare the same scenarios . like attacking far in a solo or group play and than compare the dmg output
sure the power mesmer can down in 1 burst combo but does it happen a lot in tpvp?
also i hardly see mesmers video in tpvp as the build shines in wvw mostly as roamer. does it make the build unfit the tpvp? no!

it suppose to be an examples to the ppl who said conditions cant do high dmg output versus the power one in tpvp. so 2k torment ticking for 2-3 sec and confusion 3-4k for 2-3 sec. even when low on condi stacks the burning 700 torment 500-1000 confusion 500-1000 and 3 bleed 300 can do nice 3k dps

No you’re just not looking well enough. Jurica just showed a video of some skill level that could never ever be achieved on a condi mesmer. Such plays allow mesmer to somewhat still participate in the meta. The problem with condi mesmer is that you can’t make such plays, so there’s no reason to take a condi mesmer if the skill cap is capped at hotjoin level.

Also if you actually wanna compare it, rather go bring up some numbers, instead of comparing two completely different situations with different builds.

messiah.1908:

it suppose to be an examples to the ppl who said conditions cant do high dmg output versus the power one in tpvp.

Then in that case, you should have just shown examples of being able to do strong damage, you shouldn’t have tried to compare it. Comparisons are not always necessary, or even reasonable. This is one of those cases, and attempting to compare to incomparable situations simply leads to critiques of that comparison, instead of noticing the actual point you were trying to make.

BlackDevil.9268:

No you’re just not looking well enough. Jurica just showed a video of some skill level that could never ever be achieved on a condi mesmer. Such plays allow mesmer to somewhat still participate in the meta. The problem with condi mesmer is that you can’t make such plays, so there’s no reason to take a condi mesmer if the skill cap is capped at hotjoin level.

Also if you actually wanna compare it, rather go bring up some numbers, instead of comparing two completely different situations with different builds.

the problem is when i show the numbers you all telling the enemy were noobs thus no conditions should have tick to them at all.

and 1 move (in probably unranked against thief who is dog revealed his location ) but amazing one doesnt bring 1 build to the meta

so if this build is suitable for 95% of the tpvp games as only 5% are elite players so be it

It’s getting quite hard for me to not become to personal with you lol.
You do realise when someone mentions anything with ’’numbers’’ that it should be stated with facts and calculations right? I don’t think a single player, or maybe some random hotjoin player, cares about any of the video’s you’re posting to prove your point.
Especially when you’re making a thread to compare the damage of power shatter vs. condi shatter.
All you came up with was some troll video. You’re slowly becoming part of the reason people tend to troll when talking about condi mesmer. Come, bring up some nice maths how your massive condi damage outdamages power mesmer and what combo’s are used for that.
How reliable is that combo to hit, how hard is it to pull off and how long do such combo’s take to pull off. How many conditions do you apply with that and what’s the rate of reapplying those conditions when almost instantly cleansed? And not to forget, how much damage does this combo deal in 5 and in 10 seconds. Since most kills are gained by quick bursts, I wouldnt count too much on condi bursts over 5 seconds though.

messiah.1908:

(why am i the only one who puts mtd condi videos)

Because you’re the one who can’t accept that mtd is completely useless in a competitive environment.

BlackDevil.9268:

Since most kills are gained by quick bursts, I wouldnt count too much on condi bursts over 5 seconds though.

Power kills are gained by quick bursts, condie kills are gained through condie pressure over time.

I think a big issue is that a lot of people are treating this build like a power shatter build. You’re looking for that same sort of fight-ending burst potential, and it simply isn’t there.

On the other hand, power shatter doesn’t have particularly good sustained pressure. Yeah, you can autoattack with greatsword from range and toss out zerkers now and then, but that’s not honestly very significant. When you land a big shatter in a MtD build, you get that significant sustained pressure. Torment, confusion, some bleeds, some poison on multiple people. This nasty stuff, and it will kill people if not removed.

Both builds apply their pressure in the same way. Both builds have similar utility capabilities while applying that pressure. The difference is in what happens directly after the burst, and when you want to apply that pressure. Power shatter aims to kill people after the instant of that burst, and so you try to time it so that people are already vulnerable. MtD shatter puts an immense amount of pressure on everyone that it hits, over the next 10 or so seconds. Its aim isn’t to kill, but instead to force reactions, cause the other team to do something or wither.

They both have their place in a team, but it’s an entirely different place. You can’t equate or compare the two directly, it just doesn’t make sense.

In a 1v1 sure. But when speaking about teamfights it will come down to 2-3seconds kills. Highly doubt you can avoid team fights all the time as mesmer without being completely useless.

Not only that but landing a combo shatter on mtd in a team fight is significantly much harder than on power shatter due that you lack your most reliable shatter: yourself/IP. Just the slightest aoe or CC should kill your burst. Not to mention it can be easily cleansed with the condi removal spam going on with the eles, warriors and guards.

You can easily compare them to eachother since you’re talking about a game mode and a certain meta. You can’t just switch out all specs which are deciding the meta and try to build around your condi mesmer. That will just easily end up in a massive failure. If condies were a counter to the current meta, I’m pretty sure people would have figured it out after 1/2 a year. And when looking at what’s the slightest counter to cele it’s by big bursts and trying to snowball out of that.

You can’t execute that very well with a condi spec.

Burst is everything. You win fights by killing someone not by doing a lot of damage to make him use heals.

Condi mesmer isn’t a very good choice to try to play in pvp, even against players with a moderate level of skill or organization and this is largely why throughout the history of pvp you don’t see as many condi builds and there has never been a ‘condi meta’ phase of the game.

IMO condi builds in pvp, outside of a couple exceptions, are a stepping stone to let new players feel like they are being useful as they eventually gain enough experience to move onto power, or more recently cele hybrid builds. Much in the same way that we all have access to a person heal and dodge rolls, we can kite, line of sight and most importantly chose the engagements to fight. In the current meta their really isn’t so many 1v1 matchups this build shines in, and in the 1v1s that it does have an advantage the enemy player can still rotate to beat you. For example in 1v1’s that the OPs build would be favoured I, as his opponent, only need to stall the fight until my team rotates me some support or if support isn’t coming I need to quickly determine if I continue to stall and waste his time or leave the point and use the decap and recap time as a head start on you to +1 what is likely the team fight.

Condi builds need to overload condi removal and either be backed by enough direct dmg or high enough condi loading to actually melt an opponent all while sustaining through the fight. Once you’ve played for a bit you’ll realize this and see mesmer struggles a bit in these areas by class design. In the case of a shatter build it is preferable to go with power and big burst damage because shattering your clones removes our class mechanic which also provides defensive options as well. IP is an amazing trait for us – gives more damage and more reliable damage on burst as well as having that on demand distortion or daze if you dont have an illusion up is very strong. In this build when you pop the clones for offense it leaves you more vulnerable which doesn’t work well because condis take longer to melt something. Hence get in with big direct dmg burst and get out is better.

Condi mesmer is not good. I don’t know why anyone would even compare it with power builds. It’d probably be a more constructive discussion to discuss what tools or features condi mesmer is missing from making it more useful. Eg. better access to poison to counter regen and trickle healing, higher stacks and lower duration confusion application that would act as either a condi burst or a means to shutdown/punish an enemy’s rotation (think like an interrupt but achieved via a condi instead), mesmer is design to be a burst dueler spec and is missing survivability and sustain tools needed for condi or bunker to work, etc.

Frost

Err, Frost. Doom Sigil (or double Doom Sigils) is pretty standard in MtD builds. And is a pretty excellent choice of sigil all-around.

BlackDevil.9268:

In a 1v1 sure. But when speaking about teamfights it will come down to 2-3seconds kills. Highly doubt you can avoid team fights all the time as mesmer without being completely useless.

Remember, different roles. The role of MtD shatter is applying pressure to facilitate that burst kill, say from a thief or a LB ranger. Pressure opens vulnerabilities, and the burst builds exploit those vulnerabilities.

BlackDevil.9268:

Not only that but landing a combo shatter on mtd in a team fight is significantly much harder than on power shatter due that you lack your most reliable shatter: yourself/IP. Just the slightest aoe or CC should kill your burst. Not to mention it can be easily cleansed with the condi removal spam going on with the eles, warriors and guards.

This is accurate. The clones do have more defense (due to rabid toughness transferring), but you’re still right on this account. It’s very possible to land them though, and as long as you are able to chain them, condition removal can be baited or out-applied. This particularly true if you happen to have someone else that applies conditions, even if they’re not a condie build.

BlackDevil.9268:

You can easily compare them to eachother since you’re talking about a game mode and a certain meta.

Not really true. You should compare builds playing particular roles with other builds playing those same roles. Power shatter fills a very different role than MtD shatter, so comparing them directly is a poor choice.

BlackDevil.9268:

You can’t just switch out all specs which are deciding the meta and try to build around your condi mesmer. That will just easily end up in a massive failure.

This is true, I agree. Remember though, nobody is disputing the fact that mesmer simply isn’t in the very top end of the meta, where cele reigns supreme. MtD, Power shatter, whichever role you choose to play, another class does it better.

BlackDevil.9268:

If condies were a counter to the current meta, I’m pretty sure people would have figured it out after 1/2 a year. And when looking at what’s the slightest counter to cele it’s by big bursts and trying to snowball out of that.

Condies do show up in teams from time to time. You’ll see them on engineers and necromancers generally. Also don’t forget that the cele builds themselves are often quite condie heavy. There’s no true counter to the cele meta, you simply play with it as it is.

Just one more time, none of what I’ve been saying is a counter the cele meta. None of this is truly going to work to counter that set of build and style of play. If you want to have maximum efficiency at playing a condition build, you’d do it on an engineer or necro (but probably engineer). If you wanted to have maximum efficiency playing a power build, you’d do it on a thief or mediguard.

However, maximum efficiency is not the name of the game in this subforum. Playing a mesmer in PvP precludes that by definition. The question is, what is viable at a level outside of that of WTS. If it can work, it can be viable. MtD shatter can work, therefor it can be viable. It’s not the best, it’s not the greatest, and it’s not the most efficient or effective way to play. It’s simply good enough.

ASP.8093:

Err, Frost. Doom Sigil (or double Doom Sigils) is pretty standard in MtD builds. And is a pretty excellent choice of sigil all-around.

Certainly. What I’m referring to is poison application through skill usage which is much more useful as you can determine the appropriate time to use set skill. You’re not really swapping weapons for the poison alone, you are swapping to access you skills as a priority.

@ frost there was a condi meta. It was called dhuumfire Just sayinf

Sorta. Keep in mind the timing when Dhuumfire was a thing was as players were coming out of the glass canon days and into the bunker meta. Burning has no ramp up like other condi with stacks which was rough on the glass canon builds. If you recall Dhuumfire, even before it was nerfed and tied to deathshroud, was never as strong as engie’s incendiary powder trait which is still a staple of engie builds today. Players complained about it same as they continue to complain about engie’s IP and the burning up time from cele ele and medi guards. Not sure I could call one trait on one class a condi meta though. In the cele meta teams were running multiple celestial amulets classes, in the bunker meta it was double hambow and bunker guard. To me a condi meta would be a team running multiple rabid ami builds or duplicates of the same class. If you disagree then would you say that he Apr 2014 patch that nerfed dhuumfire ended or killed the condi meta?

BlackDevil.9268:

It’s getting quite hard for me to not become to personal with you lol.
You do realise when someone mentions anything with ’’numbers’’ that it should be stated with facts and calculations right? I don’t think a single player, or maybe some random hotjoin player, cares about any of the video’s you’re posting to prove your point.
Especially when you’re making a thread to compare the damage of power shatter vs. condi shatter.
All you came up with was some troll video. You’re slowly becoming part of the reason people tend to troll when talking about condi mesmer. Come, bring up some nice maths how your massive condi damage outdamages power mesmer and what combo’s are used for that.
How reliable is that combo to hit, how hard is it to pull off and how long do such combo’s take to pull off. How many conditions do you apply with that and what’s the rate of reapplying those conditions when almost instantly cleansed? And not to forget, how much damage does this combo deal in 5 and in 10 seconds. Since most kills are gained by quick bursts, I wouldnt count too much on condi bursts over 5 seconds though.

i can give you numbers and calculations but the main thing i think you will bring up is that the enemy will imminently cleanse while in fact in real fight they w8 until 50% hp or lower and then cleanse or if they see aoe conditions on their group then they will cleanse or big stacks

as FAY said the main objective of this build is to control your enemies to dont move much and dont use skill much or use theirs utilities and skills to cleanse fast early giving my team an advantage

conditions proc and dmg potential for BD:

condition state will be base at 1405 +might stacks from shatter or staff clones bounce around 5 in average so 1550 (if staff guard with me or i use AT the might stack can be 15-20 which buff my dmg to 2k.

cover condition which do dmg:
burning – 680-730 . staff clones spread it out nicely for 1 sec so hard to cleanse it unless you immune to conditions like warrior. also torch for 3.5 sec
bleed – usually 5 stacks when playing scepter and 8-10 stack when playing with staff 560-1200 dps (with geomancy it gives 3 aoe stacks)
poison – 235 from doom sigils and chaos storm, duration around 7 sec in average unless cleanse

cover conditions which dont do dmg:
vulnerability, weakness, chill and cripple for short duration unless you go 4,4,0,0,6 then vulnerability can stack up to 25 stacks

main source of control condition dmg:
confusion: image, confusion images, shatter skills, average 5-10 stacks, dmg 850-1700 per skill used, duration around 5 sec but got fast icd on skills
torment – AA and scepter clones, illusionary counter and shatter skills average 8-12 stacks dmg 720-2000 depends if moving ,duration in average 5 sec unless cleansed

sum it up and calculate for 5 sec duration on minimum dmg
680+560+235+720=2195*5=10975+confusion if skill used lets assume twice=12675
if we lucky and calculate it with max dmg 730+1200+235+2000=4165*5=20825+confusion 24225

now lets average them because conditions take time to stack it will be around 18k dmg for 5 sec which is around 3700 damage per seconds
now even when you calculate it for 2.5 sec its still 9k dmg and repeatable

now lets take into consideration that ppl cleanse the conditions when they see 5 confusion and 5 torment – to proc them both i need only 1 shatter F1 or Icounter or i mage or confusion images which is easy to do every 10 sec

also take into account its aoe dmg mostly if your shatter hit and if the get killed the proc bleed or weakness or vulnerability which buff you team dmg and debuff your enemy dmg which are nice also

so i wont get burst dmg like the power one who can dish out around 18k dmg in 1 combo burst but can do it slower and aoe and repeatable

now consider playing with necro who spread condition (i tried it once and we got blame for hacking as we did 10 torment, poison, burning , 10 bleed and 5 confusion on mid on 4v4) but its more wvw mainly i guess as its hard to get it off

hope it answer you request

guys,

this debate is getting out of hand, the only way I can see this debate can end is having an actual test involving recognized players in sPvP willing to participate in few 5 vs 5 games, and with one team has the same exact class/combo (that dont change through out the test), and going against another team with mesmer in the roster. The only variant should be the build of the mesmer (which is to be swapped out with power shatter build or mtd build).

Obviously this video should be recorded for educated debate and critique that’s been raging the past few weeks regarding mtd condi shatter build.

rchu.8945:

guys,

this debate is getting out of hand, the only way I can see this debate can end is having an actual test involving recognized players in sPvP willing to participate in few 5 vs 5 games, and with one team has the same exact class/combo (that dont change through out the test), and going against another team with mesmer in the roster. The only variant should be the build of the mesmer (which is to be swapped out with power shatter build or mtd build).

Obviously this video should be recorded for educated debate and critique that’s been raging the past few weeks regarding mtd condi shatter build.

Top players test all the new things whenever something about their profession changes – they wouldn’t be on top if they weren’t open to new things. I’m sure Helseth, Supcutie, Countless and many others have tried MtD before.

The reason why you don’t ever see them play this is not because they are unaware of its existence, but rather because it’s inferior to what they are currently running.

It’s CI/Lockdown all over again. The mesmer forum is so convinced that it’s better than shatter, yet it’s not being used at tournaments and Helseth stated/proved a million times that it’s not better.

witcher.3197:

rchu.8945:

guys,

this debate is getting out of hand, the only way I can see this debate can end is having an actual test involving recognized players in sPvP willing to participate in few 5 vs 5 games, and with one team has the same exact class/combo (that dont change through out the test), and going against another team with mesmer in the roster. The only variant should be the build of the mesmer (which is to be swapped out with power shatter build or mtd build).

Obviously this video should be recorded for educated debate and critique that’s been raging the past few weeks regarding mtd condi shatter build.

Top players test all the new things whenever something about their profession changes – they wouldn’t be on top if they weren’t open to new things. I’m sure Helseth, Supcutie, Countless and many others have tried MtD before.

The reason why you don’t ever see them play this is not because they are unaware of its existence, but rather because it’s inferior to what they are currently running.

It’s CI/Lockdown all over again. The mesmer forum is so convinced that it’s better than shatter, yet it’s not being used at tournaments and Helseth stated/proved a million times that it’s not better.

Wow. This whole thread was a huge facepalm and then I read this. Thank you, Witcher (and Doiid). Posts like these/yours give me hope in these mesmer forums, LOL.

witcher.3197:

yet it’s not being used at tournaments

Guess what else isn’t being used at the top tournaments? Oh, it’s mesmer as a whole. I guess that puts power shatter on even footing with everything else that isn’t being used at tournaments.

witcher.3197:

rchu.8945:

guys,

this debate is getting out of hand, the only way I can see this debate can end is having an actual test involving recognized players in sPvP willing to participate in few 5 vs 5 games, and with one team has the same exact class/combo (that dont change through out the test), and going against another team with mesmer in the roster. The only variant should be the build of the mesmer (which is to be swapped out with power shatter build or mtd build).

Obviously this video should be recorded for educated debate and critique that’s been raging the past few weeks regarding mtd condi shatter build.

Top players test all the new things whenever something about their profession changes – they wouldn’t be on top if they weren’t open to new things. I’m sure Helseth, Supcutie, Countless and many others have tried MtD before.

The reason why you don’t ever see them play this is not because they are unaware of its existence, but rather because it’s inferior to what they are currently running.

It’s CI/Lockdown all over again. The mesmer forum is so convinced that it’s better than shatter, yet it’s not being used at tournaments and Helseth stated/proved a million times that it’s not better.

Not saying it’s better, but I’m not convinced it’s worse. As for the top players, no idea. Maybe they prefer the tried and true Power Shatter, maybe they don’t like the style, maybe they don’t want to take the time to master a whole new build, maybe they do think it’s worse. Doesn’t matter. Haven’t felt the need to argue on the forums about this, really, but I am of the opinion that MtD is pretty good even in comparison to power shatter, my experience in Ranked and Unranked has not contradicted me yet[upper-middle tier].

I won’t say you’re wrong, nor that I’m right. Just that so far, I’ve been winning well with it and that’s all I need to continue running MtD.

Also, sadly, I don’t watch tournaments nor watch Helseth much, so I’m not really knowledgeable on that level. If you could point me in the direction of videos to his quotes, I might be able to listen to his logic regarding his opinions, but until then I can’t really comment on how I take his thoughts.

No opinion on the videos either. Don’t really care to compare two books of differing genres.

Fay.2357:

Guess what else isn’t being used at the top tournaments? Oh, it’s mesmer as a whole..

Not true.

At the ESL weekly cup last Thursday there was at least one team using standard power shatter. I know helseth would have but he couldn’t play for some reason.

At the EU Go4 cup Sunday there were three, two of which were on the same team.

At the NA Go4 cup there were two.