Guild Wars 2

Clone death matters. Why?
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-game/professions/mesmer/

Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon. Using powerful illusions, clones, and phantasmal magic to confuse and distract their foes, mesmers make sure every fight is balanced in their favor and their opponents can’t believe their eyes.

That is the quote from the Guild wars 2 website.

Clone death traits allows for punishment for players or mobs making the wrong choice. Is distraction not the purpose of clones other than shattering?
Why should we not be able to punish other classes for making the wrong choice. Even reducing the duration of the effects would be better than taking all the dissipation traits out.

“We didn’t want to reward players for letting clones die or for replacing clones, which are both not optimal play” is what you mentioned on stream yesterday. I believe that this is not correct. It is inefficient yes but it allows us mesmers to make the other team think twice about just randomly swinging at us. Why should our resource, that we create, have no benefit when others try to destroy it.

Mesmers are about giving the enemy a choice: deal with us on our terms or face the consequences. And that is why clone death matters.

Clone Death is the most passive gameplay and unskilled (imo). Robert’s arguments towards wanting mesmers to use their profession’s mechanic is on point. I disagree, it is a good thing to be getting rid of.

Kitta.3657:

Clone Death is the most passive gameplay and unskilled (imo). Robert’s arguments towards wanting mesmers to use their profession’s mechanic is on point. I disagree, it is a good thing to be getting rid of.

this

all u have to do with those kind of builds is summoning 3 illusions/clones go stealth and dodge a bit. The only good thing to have those as enemies is, you can just walk away and they cant pressure u at all

I would rather they take out the damaging conditions and put in 1s of cripple like Crippling dissipation (but less!). That way you can’t just rely on clone damage to get your job done.

Seems silly to remove the “unskilled” clone death traits then give us a new minor trait that causes confusion on crit, but I’ll gladly take it.

I gladly welcome the introduction of more traits that require active and thoughtful game play. The removal of clone death traits goes right along these lines. These changes are really cool and raise the skill ceiling for the class itself.

I don’t really see how this is any more passive or unskillful then some builds used by other classes.

Are they going to get rid of minions and turrets? Similarly are they going to change other classes weapon cooldown skills to be as complicated as Mesmers isntead of just passive reductions?

Kitta.3657:

Clone Death is the most passive gameplay and unskilled (imo). Robert’s arguments towards wanting mesmers to use their profession’s mechanic is on point. I disagree, it is a good thing to be getting rid of.

Air sigil and fire sigil and any other sigil that procs off crit is actually higher in the chain of “passive gameplay”. They are used more frequently than mesmer clone death traits and are never brought up as gw2 humans can’t bear to see them nerfed or taken away.

Those are just sigils and they are widely used (but don’t forget how every class in gw2 have passive traits as well.)

Every mesmer in supposed “high tier” gameplay never use “clone death traits” or it is simply never going to be mainstream.

Oh btw

I don’t really see how this is any more passive or unskillful then some builds used by other classes.

Are they going to get rid of minions and turrets? Similarly are they going to change other classes weapon cooldown skills to be as complicated as Mesmers isntead of just passive reductions?

Levetty’s post just reminded me that you need to “actively” have the forethought to position your clones or phantasms majority of the time. Thus in turn actually getting a some what reliable damage effect, slight damage increase or damage mitigation placed upon said target.

The conditions also don’t have a long duration e.g. baseline bleeding has 4 seconds with 2 stacks, vulnerability has 5 seconds and weakness has 3 seconds. It is also randomized since you do not know which one will be placed upon the target. You can also “actively” dodge the effect too but can’t dodge an air sigil proc or fire sigil proc (those two are just some examples).

To complain about this trait at this point is to be foolish, since you have better ordeals to complain about e.g. “why is chaotic transference becoming a master trait as opposed to current state of being a minor grandmaster trait?” or “why is mind wrack a trait and what does this mean for the mesmer class mechanic?”.

I got weakness on interrupt with PB. Was the only clone death trait worth taking (cripple a close second). So all is well.

Ross Biddle.2367:

I got weakness on interrupt with PB. Was the only clone death trait worth taking (cripple a close second). So all is well.

Exactly, to complain about a nerf hammered trait and wanting it to simply “die out” is a major waste of time.

Oh btw, I don’t think about 5 seconds of weakness will be totally useful vs thieves that have “resilience” for about 5 seconds that can dodge a lot more than before HoT. This is also assuming you land the rupt. Another note though, thieves don’t care about skill recharge.

The application of blind upon shatter lasting only about 3 seconds will also not be very useful either, therefore it’s a joke that blinding dissipation is a master trait.

People are defending clone death builds? LOL

RIP clone dump (2013-2015)
You won’t be missed.

EVER

Please get regen banner warrior next. Nail that one in stone coffin with adamantium cage please. Also put some holy water on top, just in case it might come back from hell.

The Primary.6371:

Ross Biddle.2367:

I got weakness on interrupt with PB. Was the only clone death trait worth taking (cripple a close second). So all is well.

Another note though, thieves don’t care about skill recharge.

They’ve always cared about stuns, and their low health pools though.

Kitta.3657:

Clone Death is the most passive gameplay and unskilled (imo). Robert’s arguments towards wanting mesmers to use their profession’s mechanic is on point. I disagree, it is a good thing to be getting rid of.

Thank-you! Well said.

Weez.6315:

Kitta.3657:

Clone Death is the most passive gameplay and unskilled (imo). Robert’s arguments towards wanting mesmers to use their profession’s mechanic is on point. I disagree, it is a good thing to be getting rid of.

this

all u have to do with those kind of builds is summoning 3 illusions/clones go stealth and dodge a bit. The only good thing to have those as enemies is, you can just walk away and they cant pressure u at all

If turret engies can allow to play that way, why shouldnt Mesmers?

Wasn’t there was discussion about the issue of replacement unintentional counting as a death for the purpose of traits. Something tells me that this interaction probably was a minor (if not major) part of those traits being removed.

I have a condirupt clone death build, so is that passive?

kitten people here are acting like elitist jerks, nerf passive nerf passive. LOL

I tend to agree with clone death mattering. To me, the core of the Mesmer is that they are the class that sets up win/win situations. You attack? My confusion damages you. You don’t attack? Okay – I’ve taken you out of the fight briefly.

Clone death epitomizes this. Don’t kill my illusions? Good – I’ll use them for shatters or to hide behind. You kill my illusions? They do an effect on you.

Perhaps it shouldn’t be a full build however – maybe make it part of traits.

I don’t see why others have to bring up turret again and again. Didn’t you guys get the manual? Turret’s going to receive crit damage and conditions (lol at the latter one).

Back to the topic, I think the reduction in clone death can be made up with bleed and confusion on crit. If domination is your thing then 100% stun on daze works much better than cripple. If you really lack cripple then take sigil of incapacitation, you have 60% chance to inflict 2s cripple on crit every 5s, and quite possibly >3s if you have condi duration food etc.

My only question is where is the punishment for killing our resources. Aoe and cleaving attacks are not skillful play. So the thought of brainless condition builds goes hand in hand with brainless aoe and cleave.

I’m really wondering why its clone death that is bothering people so much for being passive play and not turrets, minions, stealth, jaguar, spirits, running around randomly cleaving, weapon CD reduction traits, on crit traits, sigils, runes, ini regen boosting traits and signits.

Oh right because clone death can only be used by Mesmer.

Levetty.1279:

I’m really wondering why its clone death that is bothering people so much for being passive play and not turrets, minions, stealth, jaguar, spirits, running around randomly cleaving, weapon CD reduction traits, on crit traits, sigils, runes, ini regen boosting traits and signits.

Oh right because clone death can only be used by Mesmer.

probably because the main point of clones is
resource
make enemy pay for attacking wrong target.

taking out on death effects mean many times the enemy doesnt pay for picking wrong target and destroys your resource.

now if you are phantasm you dont use clones much anyhow
if you shatter you try to blow them up before people kill them
but if you are diversionary clones being the targets is what you are hoping to achieve, you want enemies to pay more for getting tricked

Thank goodness they are getting rid of builds that doesn’t shatter. You need to start thinking about positioning clones for your shatters (and use your main class mechanic), rather than put some clones out and go invis for 14 seconds, while they deal 20 stacks of bleed. Though don’t be sad, your rabid perplex PU will still be viable in wvw.

I have one foot in both camps. One one hand, giving clones on-death traits punishes those whom attack them thoughtlessly. Their very existence will cause those whom play against us to learn quickly or die in frustration and that is exactly what fighting a mesmer should feel like.

On the other hand, spamming clones just for them to die just seems… wrong. For example, I was watching a youtube video about a Star Wars comic recently. In it Darth Vader constantly abused the storm troopers around him, using them as shields or outright killing them if they said something he didn’t want to hear. I know they were trying to portray him and evil but it just felt so melodramtic and stupid. Why would anyone frivolously waste a resource that’s supposed to help them?

I feel there should be a middle ground. Any clone death trait should apply short durations of vulnerability if killed within 120 units of enemies and cripple if within 240. The best place to put it is with the new Deception Evasion grandmaster. That way it feels like it’s worth being a grandmaster.

maxheap.5286:

Thank goodness they are getting rid of builds that doesn’t shatter. You need to start thinking about positioning clones for your shatters (and use your main class mechanic), rather than put some clones out and go invis for 14 seconds, while they deal 20 stacks of bleed. Though don’t be sad, your rabid perplex PU will still be viable in wvw.

I take offense to this because you imply clones are only good for shattering while admitting that they can deal 20 stacks of bleed. Those 20 stacks can deal 3k damage per second under the right conditions and I find my time is better spend using stuns, cripples, blinds, reflects and dazes instead of just going invisible to make sure those conditions hit as often as possible.

I am totally opposed to removing clone death effects. With them removed, the opponents can completely ignore them. They can’t damage while alive, and now, they apparently won’t be able to damage when killed. I have been currently using them, but I never go stealth after making them because the phantasms I create, and myself, are the main damagers. Can’t stealth and damage at the same time. I mostly use the clone death effects for the crippling so I can try to maintain distance from the MOB. I see absolutely nothing wrong in that. I have to play actively and the crippling is for defense. Being lightly armored, I need what defense I can get.

i also agree with removing clones death conditions.

but

remember clones hp is lower and can be killed with 2 sttacks while you can create more with dodging and 1 weapon set you can create them frequently

thus any enemy will start by fast killing them even if you manage to position them far from eachother leaving you alone after 5 sec with no help for 5 sec (maybe IP for 1 sec)

thus i think they need to buff a bit the dmg the clones does with staff and with scepter and sword
maybe staff 2 bleed stacks instead of 1 and 2 vulnerability or even dont make it random ie. first attack bleed second burning third vulnerability
scepter as a weak AA weapon maybe create clone at the second attack and not the third and prolong by 1 sec the torment

thus if the enemy kill your clones at the start you have the time to reposition and do some dmg. and if he target you your clones can do but more pressure which get the enemy attention

Clone death traits fit well with the whole punishing enemies for attacking wrong targets and take away our resources… but there is 1 big implementation flaw that ruins the whole concept in the end: the mesmer themselves can just kill off the clones by replacing them in a seemingly spamming fashion.

This means clones are expendable to mesmer and it goes against the main class mechanic where illusions are valuable resource and should be used wisely (every illusion counts to add to the shatter dmg).

But lets be honest, if the mesmer cannot actively kill off clones to activate clone-death traits. The builds based off these traits are not anywhere viable.

So its clearly a dilemma for the devs, either
1- they rework the clone-death traits to make them punishing but only activate when clones are killed by enemies not the mesmer.
or
2- simply get rid of the entire concept because of its conflicting nature with our shatter mechanic.

Looks like they chose the latter and easier path.

As much as I’d miss these traits, I gladly accept Anet’s decision and would take up the new stuff we got instead, for example, bleed and confusion stacking with iDuelist as Pistol OH getting buffed considerably.

Edit: Although i wouldn’t mind having it baseline for mesmer that when a clone is killed it inflicts a short (2-3s) 3-4 confusion stacks. That just seems to fit nicely the “Oh, its the wrong target, now I’m confused” concept. No other condition since it would be too much.

I am SO HAPPY clone death traits are gone.

Why? Because the sound effect and visual effect of the explosion is awful and doesn’t fit with usual mesmer sound/visual effects at all.

Now hopefully with all the different small buffs (ielasticity, confusion application, scepter traits, etc) we will be able to have decent skilled condition play without the need of any clone death trait.

Actually I’m looking forward to traiting iWarden, taking phantasmal fury, sharper images and confusing combatants and having it apply a decent amount of bleeds/confusion.

My only comment on clone death being gone is that it makes us a little more susceptible to aoe spammers. Clone death was a way to punish those people. Now, not only are they dealing dmg, but they are effectively countering our dmg when they cleave our clones, thus reducing shatter dmg. Not the end of the world, I’m def. not crying, but to me it does seem like they just removed them without thinking fully of their original purpose (before blackwater came to be).

I honestly don’t see why clones should be able to be killed by aoe to begin with. You can easily dodge the clones running at you, so there is counter play even if they can’t be aoe’d.

Now myself personally, I don’t super care because I just deal with it currently without any clone death traits, and with interrupts and timing you can still deal with aoe spamming guards etc. I just think in principle it is stupid that a class can aoe our clones and nerf our dmg while damaging us.

The persisting images trait should really be extended to all illusions, not just phantasms.

It’s a shame that a rather unique punishment mechanic for the Mesmer has been removed. At least clone death traits required an opponent to actually melee cleave the clones when you didn’t feel like wasting your endurance to make them pop. But now we get some rather insane looking new condi traits to take their place that are arguably worse if your concern is that of passive condition application.

I play clone death and it’s not passive at all.

example:

I shatter, knowing full well that the guard I’m targeting will pull an aoe to destroy the incoming clones.

example 2:

I’m up against an elementalist in fire attunement. I switch to scepter and pound them from afar. Fire field comes up. I switch to staff and run in. Chaos Storm, Phant, dodge and phase retreat out, gaining chaos armor and watching the ele kill my two clones and phant.

Example 3:

I get jumped by a thief. Chaos storm, phase retreat,phant, decoy. Run back to my clones. Thief pulls dagger storm to destroy the clones so I won’t shatter on them and bleeds themselves down in the process.

I could go on. The point is that the thing “grouch” complained about, simply dodging to kill clones, is the crudest form of clone death play.

In reality, clone death is a very good add to shatter if played well.

I love the idea of a baseline clone death penalty.. but that is far too much consideration to ask of anet

rchu.8945:

Weez.6315:

Kitta.3657:

Clone Death is the most passive gameplay and unskilled (imo). Robert’s arguments towards wanting mesmers to use their profession’s mechanic is on point. I disagree, it is a good thing to be getting rid of.

this

all u have to do with those kind of builds is summoning 3 illusions/clones go stealth and dodge a bit. The only good thing to have those as enemies is, you can just walk away and they cant pressure u at all

If turret engies can allow to play that way, why shouldnt Mesmers?

Because different professions are different? Engineers’ class mechanic isn’t shattering.

Ramanthes.5916:

rchu.8945:

Weez.6315:

Kitta.3657:

Clone Death is the most passive gameplay and unskilled (imo). Robert’s arguments towards wanting mesmers to use their profession’s mechanic is on point. I disagree, it is a good thing to be getting rid of.

this

all u have to do with those kind of builds is summoning 3 illusions/clones go stealth and dodge a bit. The only good thing to have those as enemies is, you can just walk away and they cant pressure u at all

If turret engies can allow to play that way, why shouldnt Mesmers?

Because different professions are different? Engineers’ class mechanic isn’t shattering.

It doesn’t matter what the mechanic is, why is turret passive play alright but clone death isn’t?

Ithilwen.1529:

I play clone death and it’s not passive at all.

example:

I shatter, knowing full well that the guard I’m targeting will pull an aoe to destroy the incoming clones.

example 2:

I’m up against an elementalist in fire attunement. I switch to scepter and pound them from afar. Fire field comes up. I switch to staff and run in. Chaos Storm, Phant, dodge and phase retreat out, gaining chaos armor and watching the ele kill my two clones and phant.

Example 3:

I get jumped by a thief. Chaos storm, phase retreat,phant, decoy. Run back to my clones. Thief pulls dagger storm to destroy the clones so I won’t shatter on them and bleeds themselves down in the process.

I could go on. The point is that the thing “grouch” complained about, simply dodging to kill clones, is the crudest form of clone death play.

In reality, clone death is a very good add to shatter if played well.

I love the idea of a baseline clone death penalty.. but that is far too much consideration to ask of anet

Wait what? The point of shatter is to shatter your clones to deal extra damage, not watch them die to do damage. Any spec can put on debilitating dissipation (which is random btw, no guaranteed bleed) and just wait for their clones to die. The point of a Mesmer’s mechanics is to shatter your clones – its a class mechanic. They want you actively deciding whether or not to interrupt, deal damage/condi damage/ or save yourself with distortion. That is an active playstyle. Which is why IP is being made baseline. Dodge-rolling with 3 clones up and spawning more clones just to get “conditions.” Btw, do you actually know which clone dies last to proc DD when you dodge or create a clone at 3, the answer is probably not. I’m extremely glad they’re removing this trait from the game. i’m sure you can come up with other trait lines in the new chaos tree to suit your playstyle.

I can see why they would want to get rid of the clone death traits due to wanting Mesmers to use their main mechanic more often and not rely on passive game play. I get it, and I somewhat agree even though the effectiveness of one of my favorite builds will die out.

The only issue I take with this is the fact that clones must be able to survive in order to do dmg. This includes phantasms and the path a clone must take when commanded to shatter. No class suffers more from AOE pressure than ours. AOE guts our dmg significantly, and this is a problem in pvp modes.

SUGGESTION
Keep out the offensive clone death traits. Combine Compounding Celerity & Vigorous Revelation for a new trait:
Vigorous Dissipation - Clones apply Vigor (2s) and Swiftness (3s) to nearby allies when they are killed. # of Targets – 5. Radius – 240.

Before, clone death traits would give you an incentive to actually let your clones die. I think going a bit more supportive instead of offensive would be more in line with their ideals and give players less of an incentive to let them die. At the same time, it does cover a major weakness to the Mesmer class by giving you more dodges and the ability to escape a sticky situation.

Afterwards, they can just add vigor onto all shatters with Bountiful Disillusionment, making it even more on par with the boon monsters it’s stealth/interrupt counterparts, PU & CI. Then, they can have another chance at making a more than decent Inspiration trait. How many more chances is it going to take, idk, but I’m willing to give them as many as they need…

Thoughts?

MailMail.6534:

I can see why they would want to get rid of the clone death traits due to wanting Mesmers to use their main mechanic more often and not rely on passive game play. I get it, and I somewhat agree even though the effectiveness of one of my favorite builds will die out.

The only issue I take with this is the fact that clones must be able to survive in order to do dmg. This includes phantasms and the path a clone must take when commanded to shatter. No class suffers more from AOE pressure than ours. AOE guts our dmg significantly, and this is a problem in pvp modes.

SUGGESTION
Keep out the offensive clone death traits. Combine Compounding Celerity & Vigorous Revelation for a new trait:
Vigorous Dissipation - Clones apply Vigor (2s) and Swiftness (3s) to nearby allies when they are killed. # of Targets – 5. Radius – 240.

Before, clone death traits would give you an incentive to actually let your clones die. I think going a bit more supportive instead of offensive would be more in line with their ideals and give players less of an incentive to let them die. At the same time, it does cover a major weakness to the Mesmer class by giving you more dodges and the ability to escape a sticky situation.

Afterwards, they can just add vigor onto all shatters with Bountiful Disillusionment, making it even mo. Then, they can have another chance at making a more than decent Inspiration trait. How many more chances is it going to take, idk, but I’m willing to give them as many as they need…

Thoughts?

Wow this a good idea, Instead of Punishing them directly, just make them regret it by making us stronger.

Healing Dissipation anyone?

@Mail

Sorry I went ahead and posted a thread in pvp because I was so amazed by sheer brilliance of this idea.

Altho I didn’t use your exact example but I used the same logic.

I was like, “Why didn’t I think of that?”

MailMail.6534:

I can see why they would want to get rid of the clone death traits due to wanting Mesmers to use their main mechanic more often and not rely on passive game play. I get it, and I somewhat agree even though the effectiveness of one of my favorite builds will die out.

The only issue I take with this is the fact that clones must be able to survive in order to do dmg. This includes phantasms and the path a clone must take when commanded to shatter. No class suffers more from AOE pressure than ours. AOE guts our dmg significantly, and this is a problem in pvp modes.

SUGGESTION
Keep out the offensive clone death traits. Combine Compounding Celerity & Vigorous Revelation for a new trait:
Vigorous Dissipation - Clones apply Vigor (2s) and Swiftness (3s) to nearby allies when they are killed. # of Targets – 5. Radius – 240.

Before, clone death traits would give you an incentive to actually let your clones die. I think going a bit more supportive instead of offensive would be more in line with their ideals and give players less of an incentive to let them die. At the same time, it does cover a major weakness to the Mesmer class by giving you more dodges and the ability to escape a sticky situation.

Afterwards, they can just add vigor onto all shatters with Bountiful Disillusionment, making it even more on par with the boon monsters it’s stealth/interrupt counterparts, PU & CI. Then, they can have another chance at making a more than decent Inspiration trait. How many more chances is it going to take, idk, but I’m willing to give them as many as they need…

Thoughts?

vigor will bring up your endurance after 5 sec (for 1 dodge) its 5 sec you are alone and easy target to die
i say maybe each clone die will bring back 10% endurance so combine with regular endurance refill if 3 clones get killed you have 1 more dodge to create new one
now this must be clone killed and not replaced by new clone

Kitta.3657:

Clone Death is the most passive gameplay and unskilled (imo). Robert’s arguments towards wanting mesmers to use their profession’s mechanic is on point. I disagree, it is a good thing to be getting rid of.

I can’t see how condi clone death is any more passive and less skilled than standard zerker that just ganks or run in and make a 2v1.

messiah.1908:

MailMail.6534:

I can see why they would want to get rid of the clone death traits due to wanting Mesmers to use their main mechanic more often and not rely on passive game play. I get it, and I somewhat agree even though the effectiveness of one of my favorite builds will die out.

The only issue I take with this is the fact that clones must be able to survive in order to do dmg. This includes phantasms and the path a clone must take when commanded to shatter. No class suffers more from AOE pressure than ours. AOE guts our dmg significantly, and this is a problem in pvp modes.

SUGGESTION
Keep out the offensive clone death traits. Combine Compounding Celerity & Vigorous Revelation for a new trait:
Vigorous Dissipation - Clones apply Vigor (2s) and Swiftness (3s) to nearby allies when they are killed. # of Targets – 5. Radius – 240.

Before, clone death traits would give you an incentive to actually let your clones die. I think going a bit more supportive instead of offensive would be more in line with their ideals and give players less of an incentive to let them die. At the same time, it does cover a major weakness to the Mesmer class by giving you more dodges and the ability to escape a sticky situation.

Afterwards, they can just add vigor onto all shatters with Bountiful Disillusionment, making it even more on par with the boon monsters it’s stealth/interrupt counterparts, PU & CI. Then, they can have another chance at making a more than decent Inspiration trait. How many more chances is it going to take, idk, but I’m willing to give them as many as they need…

Thoughts?

vigor will bring up your endurance after 5 sec (for 1 dodge) its 5 sec you are alone and easy target to die
i say maybe each clone die will bring back 10% endurance so combine with regular endurance refill if 3 clones get killed you have 1 more dodge to create new one
now this must be clone killed and not replaced by new clone

I think the idea on Mail’s suggestion was for team play. So the “alone” argument won’t work. I mean yeah there will be situations when you will be alone, but I like this idea better than spamming condis.

Jedge.3619:

Ithilwen.1529:

I play clone death and it’s not passive at all.

example:

I shatter, knowing full well that the guard I’m targeting will pull an aoe to destroy the incoming clones.

example 2:

I’m up against an elementalist in fire attunement. I switch to scepter and pound them from afar. Fire field comes up. I switch to staff and run in. Chaos Storm, Phant, dodge and phase retreat out, gaining chaos armor and watching the ele kill my two clones and phant.

Example 3:

I get jumped by a thief. Chaos storm, phase retreat,phant, decoy. Run back to my clones. Thief pulls dagger storm to destroy the clones so I won’t shatter on them and bleeds themselves down in the process.

I could go on. The point is that the thing “grouch” complained about, simply dodging to kill clones, is the crudest form of clone death play.

In reality, clone death is a very good add to shatter if played well.

I love the idea of a baseline clone death penalty.. but that is far too much consideration to ask of anet

Wait what? The point of shatter is to shatter your clones to deal extra damage, not watch them die to do damage. Any spec can put on debilitating dissipation (which is random btw, no guaranteed bleed) and just wait for their clones to die. The point of a Mesmer’s mechanics is to shatter your clones – its a class mechanic. They want you actively deciding whether or not to interrupt, deal damage/condi damage/ or save yourself with distortion. That is an active playstyle. Which is why IP is being made baseline. Dodge-rolling with 3 clones up and spawning more clones just to get “conditions.” Btw, do you actually know which clone dies last to proc DD when you dodge or create a clone at 3, the answer is probably not. I’m extremely glad they’re removing this trait from the game. i’m sure you can come up with other trait lines in the new chaos tree to suit your playstyle.

no, one aspect of your clones is to shatter them.
there is a reason they look exactly like you.
they also supposed to be deceptive.

a tank/distraction mesmer actually wants his clones alive, and taking damage until the moment they die. Shattering all your distractions/meat shields at once, is only a good idea when the benefits outweigh the loss.

Now, i personally never really used the build, but to claim its pointless, or against the class design is foolish. Mesmer is not defined as being a explosion factory.

Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon. Using powerful illusions, clones, and phantasmal magic to confuse and distract their foes, mesmers make sure every fight is balanced in their favor and their opponents can’t believe their eyes.

deception as a weapon: nothing deceptive about blowing up every illusion you have
confuse and distract: yup taking damage for attacking the wrong guy is confusing and distracting
cant believe your eyes: yup once again decieving the enemy/making the wrong choices.

clone death is very much one part of the idea behind mesmer.

maxheap.5286:

Thank goodness they are getting rid of builds that doesn’t shatter.

You have no idea…for what is coming…..

phys.7689:

Jedge.3619:

Ithilwen.1529:

I play clone death and it’s not passive at all.

example:

I shatter, knowing full well that the guard I’m targeting will pull an aoe to destroy the incoming clones.

example 2:

I’m up against an elementalist in fire attunement. I switch to scepter and pound them from afar. Fire field comes up. I switch to staff and run in. Chaos Storm, Phant, dodge and phase retreat out, gaining chaos armor and watching the ele kill my two clones and phant.

Example 3:

I get jumped by a thief. Chaos storm, phase retreat,phant, decoy. Run back to my clones. Thief pulls dagger storm to destroy the clones so I won’t shatter on them and bleeds themselves down in the process.

I could go on. The point is that the thing “grouch” complained about, simply dodging to kill clones, is the crudest form of clone death play.

In reality, clone death is a very good add to shatter if played well.

I love the idea of a baseline clone death penalty.. but that is far too much consideration to ask of anet

Wait what? The point of shatter is to shatter your clones to deal extra damage, not watch them die to do damage. Any spec can put on debilitating dissipation (which is random btw, no guaranteed bleed) and just wait for their clones to die. The point of a Mesmer’s mechanics is to shatter your clones – its a class mechanic. They want you actively deciding whether or not to interrupt, deal damage/condi damage/ or save yourself with distortion. That is an active playstyle. Which is why IP is being made baseline. Dodge-rolling with 3 clones up and spawning more clones just to get “conditions.” Btw, do you actually know which clone dies last to proc DD when you dodge or create a clone at 3, the answer is probably not. I’m extremely glad they’re removing this trait from the game. i’m sure you can come up with other trait lines in the new chaos tree to suit your playstyle.

no, one aspect of your clones is to shatter them.
there is a reason they look exactly like you.
they also supposed to be deceptive.

a tank/distraction mesmer actually wants his clones alive, and taking damage until the moment they die. Shattering all your distractions/meat shields at once, is only a good idea when the benefits outweigh the loss.

Now, i personally never really used the build, but to claim its pointless, or against the class design is foolish. Mesmer is not defined as being a explosion factory.

Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon. Using powerful illusions, clones, and phantasmal magic to confuse and distract their foes, mesmers make sure every fight is balanced in their favor and their opponents can’t believe their eyes.

deception as a weapon: nothing deceptive about blowing up every illusion you have
confuse and distract: yup taking damage for attacking the wrong guy is confusing and distracting
cant believe your eyes: yup once again decieving the enemy/making the wrong choices.

clone death is very much one part of the idea behind mesmer.

Clones will never be “deceptive” as they are not exact duplicates of the main character. They have too many differences plus the ai is pathetically stupid in this game.

In the end though…many believe shatter is the be all and end all. Majority want it that way and hide behind excuses such as “passive gameplay” when it already exists in supposed high tier gameplay.

This suggests that the majority of the mesmer community does not want build variety. For wanting anet to provide tweaks to “shatter” based builds will never mean “build diversity”.

phys.7689:

Jedge.3619:

Ithilwen.1529:

I play clone death and it’s not passive at all.

Wait what? The point of shatter is to shatter your clones to deal extra damage, not watch them die to do damage. Any spec can put on debilitating dissipation (which is random btw, no guaranteed bleed) and just wait for their clones to die. The point of a Mesmer’s mechanics is to shatter your clones – its a class mechanic. They want you actively deciding whether or not to interrupt, deal damage/condi damage/ or save yourself with distortion. That is an active playstyle. Which is why IP is being made baseline. Dodge-rolling with 3 clones up and spawning more clones just to get “conditions.” Btw, do you actually know which clone dies last to proc DD when you dodge or create a clone at 3, the answer is probably not. I’m extremely glad they’re removing this trait from the game. i’m sure you can come up with other trait lines in the new chaos tree to suit your playstyle.

no, one aspect of your clones is to shatter them.
there is a reason they look exactly like you.
they also supposed to be deceptive.

a tank/distraction mesmer actually wants his clones alive, and taking damage until the moment they die. Shattering all your distractions/meat shields at once, is only a good idea when the benefits outweigh the loss.

Now, i personally never really used the build, but to claim its pointless, or against the class design is foolish. Mesmer is not defined as being a explosion factory.

Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon. Using powerful illusions, clones, and phantasmal magic to confuse and distract their foes, mesmers make sure every fight is balanced in their favor and their opponents can’t believe their eyes.

deception as a weapon: nothing deceptive about blowing up every illusion you have
confuse and distract: yup taking damage for attacking the wrong guy is confusing and distracting
cant believe your eyes: yup once again decieving the enemy/making the wrong choices.

clone death is very much one part of the idea behind mesmer.

If you’ve never used the build before, how can you either argue for or against it unless you’ve experienced it – maybe you’ve fought it before? A good player, will rarely pick the wrong mesmer – its pretty easy to tell who the real one is. There’s nothing deceptive about dodge-rolling or creating a new clone and having it explode causing new conditions. Sure, killing a clone is “deceptive” but doing the former is not. That is the main issue is the passivity of that specific playstyle. Phantasm/staff mode builds want their illusions alive possibly. There’s a reason they’re also adding in new traits to promote shattering even when you have phantasms – they want a more active playstyle. I’m not saying playing phantasm is wrong, but the way clone-death was abused needed to be changed.

Jedge.3619:

phys.7689:

Jedge.3619:

Ithilwen.1529:

I play clone death and it’s not passive at all.

Wait what? The point of shatter is to shatter your clones to deal extra damage, not watch them die to do damage. Any spec can put on debilitating dissipation (which is random btw, no guaranteed bleed) and just wait for their clones to die. The point of a Mesmer’s mechanics is to shatter your clones – its a class mechanic. They want you actively deciding whether or not to interrupt, deal damage/condi damage/ or save yourself with distortion. That is an active playstyle. Which is why IP is being made baseline. Dodge-rolling with 3 clones up and spawning more clones just to get “conditions.” Btw, do you actually know which clone dies last to proc DD when you dodge or create a clone at 3, the answer is probably not. I’m extremely glad they’re removing this trait from the game. i’m sure you can come up with other trait lines in the new chaos tree to suit your playstyle.

no, one aspect of your clones is to shatter them.
there is a reason they look exactly like you.
they also supposed to be deceptive.

a tank/distraction mesmer actually wants his clones alive, and taking damage until the moment they die. Shattering all your distractions/meat shields at once, is only a good idea when the benefits outweigh the loss.

Now, i personally never really used the build, but to claim its pointless, or against the class design is foolish. Mesmer is not defined as being a explosion factory.

Mesmers are magical duelists who wield deception as a weapon. Using powerful illusions, clones, and phantasmal magic to confuse and distract their foes, mesmers make sure every fight is balanced in their favor and their opponents can’t believe their eyes.

deception as a weapon: nothing deceptive about blowing up every illusion you have
confuse and distract: yup taking damage for attacking the wrong guy is confusing and distracting
cant believe your eyes: yup once again decieving the enemy/making the wrong choices.

clone death is very much one part of the idea behind mesmer.

If you’ve never used the build before, how can you either argue for or against it unless you’ve experienced it – maybe you’ve fought it before? A good player, will rarely pick the wrong mesmer – its pretty easy to tell who the real one is. There’s nothing deceptive about dodge-rolling or creating a new clone and having it explode causing new conditions. Sure, killing a clone is “deceptive” but doing the former is not. That is the main issue is the passivity of that specific playstyle. Phantasm/staff mode builds want their illusions alive possibly. There’s a reason they’re also adding in new traits to promote shattering even when you have phantasms – they want a more active playstyle. I’m not saying playing phantasm is wrong, but the way clone-death was abused needed to be changed.

uhhh, phantasms are just as passive as clone death play.
if not more so.

I have a mesmer, i dont play clone death style because i am an offensive type player. that doesnt mean a defensive attrition based style should not exist within the class.

i have also played against it. It is annoying, it is supposed to be annoying. just like the tanky eles, the tanky guardians, the tanky thieves, necros etc.

just because i dont play it, doesnt mean it should not exist. Just because it is annoying to fight doesnt mean it should not exist.

phys.7689:

uhhh, phantasms are just as passive as clone death play.
if not more so.

I have a mesmer, i dont play clone death style because i am an offensive type player. that doesnt mean a defensive attrition based style should not exist within the class.

i have also played against it. It is annoying, it is supposed to be annoying. just like the tanky eles, the tanky guardians, the tanky thieves, necros etc.

just because i dont play it, doesnt mean it should not exist. Just because it is annoying to fight doesnt mean it should not exist.

Do you actually know which illusion will die last to proc DD when you dodge (DE)? Do you have a choice which illusion dies when you use an illusion summoning skill? The answer is: no. The original intention of DE was as you’ve stated, to punish those killing illusions. However, the main issue with DD in its current form is that you have very little control and it is being abused. If you have 3 illusions up – and you use an illusion summoning skill, why should your opponent be punished with DD because you removed a clone, not them. Mesmer’s are getting extra free conditions from that trait which is the main problem.

messiah.1908:

MailMail.6534:

SUGGESTION
Keep out the offensive clone death traits. Combine Compounding Celerity & Vigorous Revelation for a new trait:
Vigorous Dissipation - Clones apply Vigor (2s) and Swiftness (3s) to nearby allies when they are killed. # of Targets – 5. Radius – 240.
Thoughts?

vigor will bring up your endurance after 5 sec (for 1 dodge) its 5 sec you are alone and easy target to die
i say maybe each clone die will bring back 10% endurance so combine with regular endurance refill if 3 clones get killed you have 1 more dodge to create new one
now this must be clone killed and not replaced by new clone

Just to reiterate the point I’m trying to make, the purpose of this trait wouldn’t be to give mesmers an incentive to let their clones die. You want to shatter them and make sure they make it to their target. The trait is simply to slightly offset the imbalance that AOE dmg has against our class by adding some survivability and mobility. With DE and weapon CDs, clones are easy to generate, which is why clone death traits are frowned upon in the first place for being “easy” and “passive”.

While your percentage idea is nice, I think actually giving vigor adds more syngery with other traits considering it’s a boon. And I think it’s important that the trait be AOE for team support.

Jedge.3619:

phys.7689:

uhhh, phantasms are just as passive as clone death play.
if not more so.

I have a mesmer, i dont play clone death style because i am an offensive type player. that doesnt mean a defensive attrition based style should not exist within the class.

i have also played against it. It is annoying, it is supposed to be annoying. just like the tanky eles, the tanky guardians, the tanky thieves, necros etc.

just because i dont play it, doesnt mean it should not exist. Just because it is annoying to fight doesnt mean it should not exist.

Do you actually know which illusion will die last to proc DD when you dodge (DE)? Do you have a choice which illusion dies when you use an illusion summoning skill? The answer is: no. The original intention of DE was as you’ve stated, to punish those killing illusions. However, the main issue with DD in its current form is that you have very little control and it is being abused. If you have 3 illusions up – and you use an illusion summoning skill, why should your opponent be punished with DD because you removed a clone, not them. Mesmer’s are getting extra free conditions from that trait which is the main problem.

because any clone that is destroyed is using up a resource. if you are destroying clones by burning clone generators, you are wasting your generators.

If you chose to slot clone on death traits, you gave up some other traits that were most likely just as strong.

It isnt “free” the mesmer decides how deadly he wants his clone to be, and what the best way the opponent has to deal with them, based on his build.

phantasm build has weak fodder clones
shatter is going to try to blow you up/burst
on death is attrition based

ignore phantasm clones (if they even exist)
dodge shatter clones at the key moments
out sustain on death clones.

you may hate attrition builds, but everyone else has them. and the attrition concept definately fits the mesmer range of playstyles.

MailMail.6534:

messiah.1908:

MailMail.6534:

SUGGESTION
Keep out the offensive clone death traits. Combine Compounding Celerity & Vigorous Revelation for a new trait:
Vigorous Dissipation - Clones apply Vigor (2s) and Swiftness (3s) to nearby allies when they are killed. # of Targets – 5. Radius – 240.
Thoughts?

vigor will bring up your endurance after 5 sec (for 1 dodge) its 5 sec you are alone and easy target to die
i say maybe each clone die will bring back 10% endurance so combine with regular endurance refill if 3 clones get killed you have 1 more dodge to create new one
now this must be clone killed and not replaced by new clone

Just to reiterate the point I’m trying to make, the purpose of this trait wouldn’t be to give mesmers an incentive to let their clones die. You want to shatter them and make sure they make it to their target. The trait is simply to slightly offset the imbalance that AOE dmg has against our class by adding some survivability and mobility. With DE and weapon CDs, clones are easy to generate, which is why clone death traits are frowned upon in the first place for being “easy” and “passive”.

While your percentage idea is nice, I think actually giving vigor adds more syngery with other traits considering it’s a boon. And I think it’s important that the trait be AOE for team support.

how is generating clones passive when it requires actively using/managing endurance/weaponskill cool downs.

arent all attrition tank builds based around doing defensive actions while applying annoying slow dots/dps over time?
why is it cheesy for mesmer but aok for necros, theives, guardians, rangers.

phys.7689:

MailMail.6534:

messiah.1908:

MailMail.6534:

SUGGESTION
Keep out the offensive clone death traits. Combine Compounding Celerity & Vigorous Revelation for a new trait:
Vigorous Dissipation - Clones apply Vigor (2s) and Swiftness (3s) to nearby allies when they are killed. # of Targets – 5. Radius – 240.
Thoughts?

vigor will bring up your endurance after 5 sec (for 1 dodge) its 5 sec you are alone and easy target to die
i say maybe each clone die will bring back 10% endurance so combine with regular endurance refill if 3 clones get killed you have 1 more dodge to create new one
now this must be clone killed and not replaced by new clone

Just to reiterate the point I’m trying to make, the purpose of this trait wouldn’t be to give mesmers an incentive to let their clones die. You want to shatter them and make sure they make it to their target. The trait is simply to slightly offset the imbalance that AOE dmg has against our class by adding some survivability and mobility. With DE and weapon CDs, clones are easy to generate, which is why clone death traits are frowned upon in the first place for being “easy” and “passive”.

While your percentage idea is nice, I think actually giving vigor adds more syngery with other traits considering it’s a boon. And I think it’s important that the trait be AOE for team support.

how is generating clones passive when it requires actively using/managing endurance/weaponskill cool downs.

arent all attrition tank builds based around doing defensive actions while applying annoying slow dots/dps over time?
why is it cheesy for mesmer but aok for necros, theives, guardians, rangers.

You know why?

Ill give you a frank answer, most mesmers cry “nerf passive” nerf passive" But those who complain are not any good in pvp… Sad…

I mean why whine? Maybe get good first?