Guild Wars 2

These two abilities far too drastically influence our interaction with our main class mechanic, Illusions. They’re extremely restrictive to build creativity, and immensely overpowered in their effect on our ability to generation illusions.

I do not believe that their existence will ever allow mesmers to truly explore the diversity of their trait lines until they are removed, and mesmers are compensated for their loss.

iCelerity already ‘went’, and deceptive evasion is going nowhere.

I appreciate your opinion, but it’s wrong.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Post-Your-Build-Thread/page/3#post2355278

There are enough builds without deceptive evasion… And ever since that “build diversity” patch, without celerity aswell.

ViRiD.2784:

These two abilities far too drastically influence our interaction with our main class mechanic, Illusions. They’re extremely restrictive to build creativity, and immensely overpowered in their effect on our ability to generation illusions.

I do not believe that their existence will ever allow mesmers to truly explore the diversity of their trait lines until they are removed, and mesmers are compensated for their loss.

I think a common misconception is that in order for a mesmer build to be viable, it must take DE, which is furthest from the truth. It’s a stigma really. Shatter is not always king, and that’s typically why one would take this trait, along with a clone on death build. If you’re not playing either of those, there’s really no need to take DE. In fact, many of the builds stickied in the official build thread don’t, and this shows off the decent build diversity I believe we currently enjoy as a mesmer.

As for it’s placement, I think it’s fine where it is (hoping it never gets moved to a GM slot).

EDIT: Alissah got a post in ahead of me – yep, all that.

Just because you can make builds that don’t have them, doesn’t make those builds good or viable.

Pyroatheist.9031:

iCelerity already ‘went’, and deceptive evasion is going nowhere.

I appreciate your opinion, but it’s wrong.

I think your opinion is wrong. You may be able to get away without having them in PvE, or WvW zergs, but I don’t think it’s possible otherwise. Consider mesmer damage methods: shatter, phantasm, “clone death”, and mantra. Half of them require faster illusions, phantasms desperately misses IC (and is mostly inferior to shatter anyway, and completely nonviable in s/tpvp), and mantra is not viable.

So yeah, your opinion is wrong.

No OP your just another troll doing what you do best… Why come to Mesmer forum and make such a statement unless you are an attention seeking kitten stirrer. Cya.

In PvE dungeoning a straight phantasm build without DE is miles ahead of anything with DE simply because when you have three phantasms out in boss fights they get overridden by clones. And your DPS is straight Killed thanks to that because shatters in a phantasm build are LOL and clones in a phantasm build are nothing short of useless.

Small group roaming WvW doesn’t need either of them. I have successfully used a mantra healing build in a 10-15 group roaming session which has neither of these traits.

Build: http://gw2buildcraft.com/calculator/mesmer/?4.0|b.1h.h5.d.1h.h5|6.1h.h9|1b.71i.1b.71i.1b.71i.1b.71i.1b.71i.1b.71i|2x.0.2x.0.3x.0.2x.0.3x.0.2w.0|k58.0.k5a.u28a.0|30.d|32.38.3i.39.3q|e
Credit: Pyroatheist

Hrm, I actually agree. Sort of.

I think our clone-generation potential is too trait-based.
We should have less clone generation via traits and much more baseline.

I lol’d, OP.
Came here to cry about mesmers?
Mesmers are already bad enough with the condition meta.

ViRiD.2784:

Just because you can make builds that don’t have them, doesn’t make those builds good or viable.

Pyroatheist.9031:

iCelerity already ‘went’, and deceptive evasion is going nowhere.

I appreciate your opinion, but it’s wrong.

I think your opinion is wrong. You may be able to get away without having them in PvE, or WvW zergs, but I don’t think it’s possible otherwise. Consider mesmer damage methods: shatter, phantasm, “clone death”, and mantra. Half of them require faster illusions, phantasms desperately misses IC (and is mostly inferior to shatter anyway, and completely nonviable in s/tpvp), and mantra is not viable.

So yeah, your opinion is wrong.

Right because Pyro exclusively uses PvE and Zerg builds :rolleyes

You can easily get away with not using IC or DE.

I completely agree with your points on build diversity. However they are kinda necessary for a mesmer to function. My solution would be to move Decptive Evasion into the Illsuions trait line.

This allows you to pick up everything needed more easily and brings back diversity.

Coulter.2315:

I completely agree with your points on build diversity. However they are kinda necessary for a mesmer to function. My solution would be to move Decptive Evasion into the Illsuions trait line.

This allows you to pick up everything needed more easily and brings back diversity.

Nope. This makes things worse. It pidgeonholes every build that relies in clone generation into the illusions line (primarily shatter based line). It also consolidates almost every single necessary shatter trait into 1 line, which is a poor balance choice.

Heh. I’m a fan of restructuring Mesmer C/Ds to function better at “base” level.
Either:

• Drop IC completely, adjust clone-gen upwards. Fact is, this could even be done at a lower % than IC currently provides.
• Drop IC’s additional % to 10%, remove 5-10% from base clone-gen C/Ds.

DE should be left alone. A lot of builds don’t even bother with it. (Glamour/Triforce or Phantasm, for instance. Most Mantra specs probably leave it alone, as well.)

Pyroatheist.9031:

Coulter.2315:

I completely agree with your points on build diversity. However they are kinda necessary for a mesmer to function. My solution would be to move Decptive Evasion into the Illsuions trait line.

This allows you to pick up everything needed more easily and brings back diversity.

Nope. This makes things worse. It pidgeonholes every build that relies in clone generation into the illusions line (primarily shatter based line). It also consolidates almost every single necessary shatter trait into 1 line, which is a poor balance choice.

What kind of high clone generation build doesnt benefit from being in the shatter line? Theres pigeon holing and then just playing to your strength.

As for necessary thats the problem, mesmers have 4 shatters, generating enough clones to use them all effectively requires certain traits. Deceptive Evasion is a resource and so should be in the trait line which requires that resource.

Coulter.2315:

What kind of high clone generation build doesnt benefit from being in the shatter line? Theres pigeon holing and then just playing to your strength.

As for necessary thats the problem, mesmers have 4 shatters, generating enough clones to use them all effectively requires certain traits. Deceptive Evasion is a resource and so should be in the trait line which requires that resource.

Both osicat’s stealth-heavy condition build that relies on clones for their death effects and stacking bleeds (20/20/30/0/0) , as well as Countless’s clone-on-death/phantasm build (10/25/10/0/25) both rely on Deceptive Evasion without using shatter what-so-ever. Osicat’s build does not even go into Illusions.

Deceptive Evasion is a problem because if you require high clone production, then you need to have this trait. Unfortunately, Scepter is the only other tool at mesmer’s disposal to that can provide that theoretically high clone production, but is too easy to counter, and lacks consistency to a high degree (speaking only in PvP/WvW).

It, in my opinion, needs to be removed, and mesmers should be compensated slightly for its removal, the same with Illusionist’s Celerity. Illusion production is far too binary with these traits’ existence.

You also have to remember that every class has a on dodge trait. Saying this is basically saying that all on dodge traits should be removed, as if every other class had a dodge trait except us it really wouldn’t make sense. Secondly, DE is very similar to ele’s evasive arcana. A lot of builds use it, but there are still good builds out there that don’t use it.

ViRiD.2784:

These two abilities far too drastically influence our interaction with our main class mechanic, Illusions. They’re extremely restrictive to build creativity, and immensely overpowered in their effect on our ability to generation illusions.

I do not believe that their existence will ever allow mesmers to truly explore the diversity of their trait lines until they are removed, and mesmers are compensated for their loss.

You don’t know much about mesmers and it shows. Any phantasm build will exclude DE because clones will begin to override when 3 phantasms are up. I especially liked how you said phantasm builds are inferior to shatter builds – that’s such a nonsensical statement. What does “inferior” even mean in this context, because our strongest 1v1 build is a phantasm build.

I’d like to meet the mesmer who spanked you in PvP/WvW and shake his/her hand. I’m guessing you got confused because so many illusions were out. Here’s some advice – party up and call target on the mesmer as soon as you see him, then repeat that every time you get a bearing on him. Illusions are a class mechanic of ours, taking away traits that improve our ability to create them makes absolutely no sense.

Joonks.7501:

ViRiD.2784:

These two abilities far too drastically influence our interaction with our main class mechanic, Illusions. They’re extremely restrictive to build creativity, and immensely overpowered in their effect on our ability to generation illusions.

I do not believe that their existence will ever allow mesmers to truly explore the diversity of their trait lines until they are removed, and mesmers are compensated for their loss.

You don’t know much about mesmers and it shows. Any phantasm build will exclude DE because clones will begin to override when 3 phantasms are up. I especially liked how you said phantasm builds are inferior to shatter builds – that’s such a nonsensical statement. What does “inferior” even mean in this context, because our strongest 1v1 build is a phantasm build.

I’d like to meet the mesmer who spanked you in PvP/WvW and shake his/her hand. I’m guessing you got confused because so many illusions were out. Here’s some advice – party up and call target on the mesmer as soon as you see him, then repeat that every time you get a bearing on him. Illusions are a class mechanic of ours, taking away traits that improve our ability to create them makes absolutely no sense.

Lol.

Is this a new fancy way of calling nerfs on a class?

Joonks.7501:

ViRiD.2784:

These two abilities far too drastically influence our interaction with our main class mechanic, Illusions. They’re extremely restrictive to build creativity, and immensely overpowered in their effect on our ability to generation illusions.

I do not believe that their existence will ever allow mesmers to truly explore the diversity of their trait lines until they are removed, and mesmers are compensated for their loss.

You don’t know much about mesmers and it shows. Any phantasm build will exclude DE because clones will begin to override when 3 phantasms are up. I especially liked how you said phantasm builds are inferior to shatter builds – that’s such a nonsensical statement. What does “inferior” even mean in this context, because our strongest 1v1 build is a phantasm build.

I’d like to meet the mesmer who spanked you in PvP/WvW and shake his/her hand. I’m guessing you got confused because so many illusions were out. Here’s some advice – party up and call target on the mesmer as soon as you see him, then repeat that every time you get a bearing on him. Illusions are a class mechanic of ours, taking away traits that improve our ability to create them makes absolutely no sense.

This. All this.

DavyMcB.1603:

Is this a new fancy way of calling nerfs on a class?

Jackums.3496:

Pyroatheist.9031:

I appreciate your opinion, but it’s wrong.

This, though I don’t appreciate your opinion, you’re just wrong.

Anymore requests for blindly unconstructive nerfs, anyone?

Reading is hard, it seems.

ViRiD.2784:

…and mesmers are compensated for their loss.

You’re calling devs to remove one of the most crucial traits for mesmer. Do tell me how it’s not nerfing?

Understanding yourself is hard, it seems.

Now to top on that, your lack of understanding in the profession totally manifests as the above posts suggested. You came here calling a nerf on Duelist X claiming it’s restricting build diversity and made a false comparison between shatter and phantasm builds. Total bullkitten.

I’ve played a mesmer alone for almost 3k hours. I’ve tried almost everything the profession has to offer. Different variations of shatters. Different variations of phantasms. Reflect. Perma-retaliation. Bunker. Full heal. Condi-cleanser. Both shatter confusion and combo confusion. Condition interrupt. DPS interrupt. Stealth-portal zerg relay. And the list goes on..

Your assumption and misconception that mesmer lacks build diversity is totally bullkitten. It’s just that most of those diverse builds are very specialized — congruent with the class as it’s meant to be specialized profession. The fact that shatter and phantasm (thus tiding with duelist X) are so popular is because it’s a dps build. People love dps build because it’s easy and practical for most situations. Because “most situations” are about decreasing those red bars. Anything could reduce those red bars be it thief, necro, war or GD. Here it’s like you’re saying that Hidden Killer should be removed because back-stab thieves have to take it, preventing build diversity. It’s a circular reasoning. The fact that Duelist X shines so much is because it’s tied with shatter and phantasm build(actually just shatter). It’s true that those are the only two builds that deal dmg(condition as well if you want to count that too). BECAUSE that’s how it’s supposed to be. It’s not that mesmers don’t have other builds. It’s just that those other builds totally have nothing to do with dmg (at least not directly). And that’s why most people don’t take them. Because people usually assume that being viable means it has to wreck everything in 1 second. It doesn’t.

If you’re running a full reflect build, do you expect it to be able to kill a melee thief? NO. Because that’s not where the build becomes viable. It’s when you put 8 sec Feedback with effective 24 sec CD on gates and reckon 50-man zerges hitting towers that makes this build viable.

So… NO you don’t need duelist X for everything.

L2P the class for us all, plz.

@DavyMcB: You make a ton of hyperbolic statements, create massive assumptions about both my character and the degree of compensation I’m implying, and still refuse to read the entire thread before you reply. You can barely stay on topic in your long ramble. You’re a joke.

Since when has “GD” ever been short-hand for guardians?

Like … seriously?

If DE is nerfed or removed, this is a game uninstall for me. Not qqing or anything but THIS trait is THE trait and if gone im gone. Never ran nor will ever bother running builds without it so changing something as important is almost like deleting a class.

Lol, come on guys. OP is obviously joking. There’s no way he’s serious…. right? Please say yes.

colesy.8490:

Since when has “GD” ever been short-hand for guardians?

Like … seriously?

Too funny =)

Wow. That escalated quickly.

Now everybody take a deep breath. No traits have to get hurt. Happy thoughts. This isn’t the thief forum.

Imma play devil’s advocate here. Just cuz.

Let’s look at the topic from a different skew. Without the threat of DE removal. Is it “too important” to a shatter build? If so, why?

It seems less a matter of DE being too good and more one of non-DE clone generation being too bad. Clone generation for a DE shatter build is a non-issue. They are more often limited by their shatter cooldowns. It kind of corners that family of builds into a 0/20/0/0/30 framework. Some will drop Illusions before they’ll drop DE. I think the general hostilities in this thread have shown just how important it is to people. Liking a trait is well and fine, but I don’t know that any trait should be that vital.

What I think this shows is that if a build functions off of clones (that “if” is important, because discussing non-clone builds shoves the target issue out of focus) then we’re getting them (before traits) much slower than we need to use them. We’re feeling ammo-starved.

I don’t want to see DE go. There’s nothing wrong with it. But there is a definite dominant strategy issue within the clone build circle. It needs some competition.

OP seems to have confused Shatter build with every build ever.

Because in phantasm builds DE actively works against your damage output and iCelerity is gained with a damage reduction that most people aren’t willing to pay.

In fact iCelerity is really only worth it for shatter builds now and if it was removed people would still be putting 30 in illusions anyway.