Guild Wars 2

Stievie.6128:

Bearlin.7238:

What if you have 3 clones out and you press a shatter… and while these clones are running to the target, you dodge to produce more clones? Will it actually produce clones?

this issue needs way more attention

I agree. We need a definite answer to this one from the developers.

Grouch,

I have come to the conclusion that this recommended change was simply not well thought out. This is a nerf to all builds, and it is completely unnecessary to nerf all builds in this manner.

Here are the kinds of situations this change will negatively impact w/3 clone out:

1. Phantasmal Retreat – no longer creates a clone meat shield to soak the attack you are about to get
2. Thief jumps you – you no longer can dodge+daze
3. Someone is rezzing/stomping – you no longer can dodge+daze
4. You won’t be able to replace that iWarden that’s standing there and doing nothing with a useful Beserker or iSwordsman
5. Clones are 1000m away standing and doing nothing while you are getting attacked – you won’t be able to summon more clones to help

This idea will hurt all mesmer builds overall, and, to put it mildly, Mesmers aren’t all over the meta right now as it is.

This idea was not well thought out, and that’s the nicest thing I can say about it.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Grouch,

I have come to the conclusion that this recommended change was simply not well thought out. This is a nerf to all builds, and it is completely unnecessary to nerf all builds in this manner.

Here are the kinds of situations this change will negatively impact w/3 clone out:

1. Phantasmal Retreat – no longer creates a clone meat shield to soak the attack you are about to get
2. Thief jumps you – you no longer can dodge+daze
3. Someone is rezzing/stomping – you no longer can dodge+daze
4. You won’t be able to replace that iWarden that’s standing there and doing nothing with a useful Beserker or iSwordsman
5. Clones are 1000m away standing and doing nothing while you are getting attacked – you won’t be able to summon more clones to help

This idea will hurt all mesmer builds overall, and, to put it mildly, Mesmers aren’t all over the meta right now as it is.

This idea was not well thought out, and that’s the nicest thing I can say about it.

While I also think the change wasn’t well thought out, your points 1 and 4 are both factually inaccurate.

Thedenofsin.7340:

Grouch,

I have come to the conclusion that this recommended change was simply not well thought out. This is a nerf to all builds, and it is completely unnecessary to nerf all builds in this manner.

Here are the kinds of situations this change will negatively impact w/3 clone out:

1. Phantasmal Retreat – no longer creates a clone meat shield to soak the attack you are about to get
2. Thief jumps you – you no longer can dodge+daze
3. Someone is rezzing/stomping – you no longer can dodge+daze
4. You won’t be able to replace that iWarden that’s standing there and doing nothing with a useful Beserker or iSwordsman
5. Clones are 1000m away standing and doing nothing while you are getting attacked – you won’t be able to summon more clones to help

This idea will hurt all mesmer builds overall, and, to put it mildly, Mesmers aren’t all over the meta right now as it is.

This idea was not well thought out, and that’s the nicest thing I can say about it.

This^^ it seem like devs are consistently make changes to the game without fully realizing the full extent of there changes.

Also if you dodged at right time with de you could make thiefs waste there bas venom on a clone. Its also a good was of allowing clones to soak up back stabs.

I don’t see how anyone can honestly say, that playing using DE with clone on death traits, is anyway near what those traits were supposed to do. The clone on death traits were obviously supposed be, for when an enemy kills a clone. Denying this is just silly. Mesmers found a neat trick to make that mechanic work for them. And then a spec using it became super popular. It was left alone for a long time, until now someone had fixed it.

The same goes for people wanting 6 clones for shatter. The Mesmer class is supposed to have 3 illusions up max. I can tell, because that’s how many little bubbles I have to fill up. Again people found a neat trick where they could summon more clones after shatter. And it worked for a long time. But no one can say that is how the class was intended to work.

We were always supposed to have 3 active pets at a time. And the clone on death traits were always supposed to inflict conditions when an enemy killed the clone.

People posting here to say “I’m quitting the game and holding my breath till I get my way” or “I’m rolling warrior cus I am mad!!” Are the worst kind of posters. If your going to stop playing then stop. If you want to play a warrior now, go for it, I hope everyone finds a way to enjoy there leisure. But to make such a dramatic departure is like slamming a door 6 times when you leave a room.

And this is why I’ve been playing other MMO’s lately. I’ve grown exhausted of a game where the only class deemed worthy of not being torn to shreds is warriors.

As a shatter mesmer lining up full mind wracks on a warrior, taking off maybe 10% of his health as he heals back up and bursts down my face.

But no let’s nerf mesmers, that warrior almost had to try to catch me so I need to be toned down.

Such a joke.

Isn’t it likely that mesmer needs some rework here? Looking at many of the builds, this was a must have trait that many, many builds used. Something that is a must have really sends a red flag out to the development team I am thinking ..

That being said, we don’t know yet if anything was done to actually fill the void .. or that the nerf will be as kittenome think. It certainly appears to make deceptive evasion more difficult to use, but before it was just basically dodge when you had the bar for it (assuming you want to put out as many illusions as possible in as short a time as possible to allow die, shatter, etc). Now you likely use it to fill, and if you are interested in popping you have to use weapon skills, and if you want shatter fodder you have to be a bit more careful if you want to maximize it.

Going through the mesmer traits again and trying to go through it as if I was a player who doesnt read other’s build posts on the forums, etc .. I am really at a loss as to what lines I should go through because they are scattered all over hell depending on what I want to “be”.

It really sort of lacks the organization a lot of other classes have (warrior) and someone needs to take a hard look at it. I am not sure they are well understood on the dev team. Being a developer myself you would have a fairly small group of vocal developers on any team, and each would have their favorite “pet” professions (a natural human bias). It doesn’t seem like we have a voice.

Also. Off topic, but their grammar was horrible according to Dulfy ’s report

LumAnth.5124:

Also. Off topic, but their grammar was horrible according to Dulfy ’s report

Programmers come into work in shorts and t-shirts, code in their cube dungeons and generally avoid talking to other non-programmers. When your entire day is spent looking at C++, writing and reading it, sometimes you forget the English language exists.

Josh Davis.6015:

Hey mesmers,

For clarification: if you have 0-2 clones out and you dodge, you will summon a clone.

If you have 3 clones out and you dodge, nothing will happen.

Clone is a threat? Illusion is the focus and hype is normally a class profession.

frifox.5283:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Josh Davis.6015:

Hey mesmers,

For clarification: if you have 0-2 clones out and you dodge, you will summon a clone.

If you have 3 clones out and you dodge, nothing will happen.

Good to hear. Might want to try and convey the information a bit more clearly next time.

Oddly enough I found that he presented the change in the video quite clear. He did blurb out initially and made it look as if there will be no clone production if -any- clones are out but then he did clarify it quite specifically “if you’re full clones we are not going to create anymore”, aka if you got 3 illusions up then no clones will be spawned.

Because he said BOTH, so it wasn’t completely clear which statement was fact and which a mistake. He didn’t preface his second comment with something like, “What I said initially was a mistake” or “For the sake of clarification…” – it was just all thrown in there between some ramblings about “cheesing it.”

I was personally leaning toward the likelihood of the second statement being fact, as obviously most others were, but it’s good he chimed in here for the record.

Ghanto.9784:

frifox.5283:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Josh Davis.6015:

Hey mesmers,

For clarification: if you have 0-2 clones out and you dodge, you will summon a clone.

If you have 3 clones out and you dodge, nothing will happen.

Good to hear. Might want to try and convey the information a bit more clearly next time.

Oddly enough I found that he presented the change in the video quite clear. He did blurb out initially and made it look as if there will be no clone production if -any- clones are out but then he did clarify it quite specifically “if you’re full clones we are not going to create anymore”, aka if you got 3 illusions up then no clones will be spawned.

Because he said BOTH, so it wasn’t completely clear which statement was fact and which a mistake. He didn’t preface his second comment with something like, “What I said initially was a mistake” or “For the sake of clarification…” – it was just all thrown in there between some ramblings about “cheesing it.”

I was personally leaning toward the likelihood of the second statement being fact, as obviously most others were, but it’s good he chimed in here for the record.

Note that Josh (Grouch) the guy that responded here on the forums is not the wonderboy that garbled everything on the stream. That was Jon Peters.

I run a clone death build, and i don’t see this killing the build at all. It’s just going to make the player plan more on how to get their burst off, which i feel was their intent.

The flow of the build has been disrupted, and that’s really the only change.

Preacher

Pyroatheist.9031:

Ghanto.9784:

frifox.5283:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Josh Davis.6015:

Hey mesmers,

For clarification: if you have 0-2 clones out and you dodge, you will summon a clone.

If you have 3 clones out and you dodge, nothing will happen.

Good to hear. Might want to try and convey the information a bit more clearly next time.

Oddly enough I found that he presented the change in the video quite clear. He did blurb out initially and made it look as if there will be no clone production if -any- clones are out but then he did clarify it quite specifically “if you’re full clones we are not going to create anymore”, aka if you got 3 illusions up then no clones will be spawned.

Because he said BOTH, so it wasn’t completely clear which statement was fact and which a mistake. He didn’t preface his second comment with something like, “What I said initially was a mistake” or “For the sake of clarification…” – it was just all thrown in there between some ramblings about “cheesing it.”

I was personally leaning toward the likelihood of the second statement being fact, as obviously most others were, but it’s good he chimed in here for the record.

Note that Josh (Grouch) the guy that responded here on the forums is not the wonderboy that garbled everything on the stream. That was Jon Peters.

No, I didn’t think he was, but didn’t feel the need to sort out who the “he’s” were.

I think the DE change is good – from what I understand, it shouldn’t affect shatter at all – will still be able to do diversion/MW bursts with 6 illusions out.

I’m happy it’s making on-death builds require more planning and active clone generation from weapons – but as stated earlier, hopefully the scepter’s auto attack is modified to support this.

What I’m concerned about is not seeing any mention of PU in there – hope they tone it down (and this is coming from a PU user) because build variety at the moment is pretty low.

Also concerned about our direct damage being too weak for the current state of the game – high toughness, condition meta – personally believe mind wrack and blurred frenzy both need a damage buff.

I’m fed up with losing direct damage for other little bits and pieces – for example scepter counter losing damage for torment, and sword auto losing damage for boon strip. Need MH pistol now, with heavy direct damage and possibly mobility!

Kaiyanwan.8521:

If you have three clones up and dodge with DE, the oldest clone will be destroyed and will apply on-death effects while a new clone is spawned.
After the patch, nothing will happen.

See the picture?

Then why just don’t apply on-death effects only if a clone is killed (by a foe) and not when it’s overwrited? o_O

edit:
Plus I would let it like this
1st clone + 2nd clone + 3rd clone > dodge > 1st clone desroyed and replaced by a new one + 2nd clone + 3rd clone

1st phantasm +2nd phantasm + 3rd phantasm > dodge > nothing happen

1st phantasm + 1st clone + 2nd phantasm> dodge > 1st phantasm + 1st clone destroyed and replaced by a new one + 2nd phantasm

I’m not sure that is a solution. Clones really only serve kittenter fodder or for their death explosion .. since they do basically no damage (some are marginally useful to apply conditions, also depending on builds). Lacking the ability to explode them ourselves, an enemy could just ignore them completely. It would mean all mesmers must shatter.

Reesha.7901:

Stievie.6128:

Bearlin.7238:

What if you have 3 clones out and you press a shatter… and while these clones are running to the target, you dodge to produce more clones? Will it actually produce clones?

this issue needs way more attention

I agree. We need a definite answer to this one from the developers.

A lot of people are saying they believe it will still work as it does now, but still no word from the devs. I guess we have to wait until the patch comes out.

On a side note, I really feel even more pressured to go PU or phantasm with these changes. Nerfing DE is a nerf not just to clone death builds, but also shatter mesmers in a way (Say goodbye to being able to dodge-dazing). Confounding Suggestions will most likely be nerfed as well so now I feel tunneled to go either 30/30/0/10/0 (phantasm-halting strike) or 20/20/30/x/x (PU). Yay build diversity :/

Thedenofsin.7340:

Grouch,

I have come to the conclusion that this recommended change was simply not well thought out. This is a nerf to all builds, and it is completely unnecessary to nerf all builds in this manner.

Here are the kinds of situations this change will negatively impact w/3 clone out:

1. Phantasmal Retreat – no longer creates a clone meat shield to soak the attack you are about to get
2. Thief jumps you – you no longer can dodge+daze
3. Someone is rezzing/stomping – you no longer can dodge+daze
4. You won’t be able to replace that iWarden that’s standing there and doing nothing with a useful Beserker or iSwordsman
5. Clones are 1000m away standing and doing nothing while you are getting attacked – you won’t be able to summon more clones to help

This idea will hurt all mesmer builds overall, and, to put it mildly, Mesmers aren’t all over the meta right now as it is.

This idea was not well thought out, and that’s the nicest thing I can say about it.

We can improve point 5: every clone you summon will spawn in a random tyrian tavern wasting your money on ale xD

Btw, I though wewe would have got the fix for the warden and instead we got this… :S

Curunen.8729:

I think the DE change is good – from what I understand, it shouldn’t affect shatter at all – will still be able to do diversion/MW bursts with 6 illusions out.

I’m happy it’s making on-death builds require more planning and active clone generation from weapons – but as stated earlier, hopefully the scepter’s auto attack is modified to support this.

What I’m concerned about is not seeing any mention of PU in there – hope they tone it down (and this is coming from a PU user) because build variety at the moment is pretty low.

Also concerned about our direct damage being too weak for the current state of the game – high toughness, condition meta – personally believe mind wrack and blurred frenzy both need a damage buff.

I’m fed up with losing direct damage for other little bits and pieces – for example scepter counter losing damage for torment, and sword auto losing damage for boon strip. Need MH pistol now, with heavy direct damage and possibly mobility!

This proposed change affects shatters quite badly, the specific ways are nuanced but they are there and they will have a tremendous impact on the spec’s performance in the future.

It’s a terrible and misguided change, and I really hope it doesn’t go through.

Teutos.8620:

Josh Davis.6015:

If you have 3 clones out and you dodge, nothing will happen.

And that’s a big nerf for every build.

• Currently against some professions you are going to dodge backwards to create a clone between you and your opponent, so that the clone can soak the damage. Not that you can do the whole dodging back, against certain profession you have to use this, otherwise you’ll just die. Now that will no longer be possible.

• Another example is the terrain unevenness. F.e. I get attacked outside of the clocktower, dodge, then go into the clocktower, and now can not use one of my clones, because he is outside (or stuck on a different position). Now even if I dodge multiple times inside the clocktower, my first shatter will only contain a very very low number of useful clones. It could be possible, that the whole shatter is wastes, because the clones are stuck somewhere.

This is one of the most important posts here. If you are caught outside of trying to get to a point and are being attacked, you’ll create a clone outside of a target area you want to shatter if you decide to switch to a different target that is already on point.

That, coupled with backwards dodge rolling to let a clone eat the blinding power blind or headset or any number of skills that can be blocked will be a huge issue for mesmers.

Suggestions:

If you want to nerf clone death spam, then nerf that trait itself (Debilitating Dissipation) or make it so the 3rd clone still replaces the last clone but doesn’t make it explode if there are already 3 up.

I’m sorry but I still don’t see how clone death traits were overpowered in the first place, even when coupled with DE. I mean at most we are talking about applying:

• 1 stack of confusion (3.25 secs)
• 3 stacks of bleed (5.5 secs) 33% chance or
  3 stacks of Vulnerability (5.5 secs) 33% chance or
  Weakness (3.25 secs) 33% chance
• Cripple (3.25 secs)

And this only happens with DE if you sacrifice a dodge and risk overriding a phantasm or more powerful clone in the process.

Were people seriously dying in sPvP (since obviously that is what this nerf is all about) because they just stood dumbfounded next to a clone that exploded 1 stack of confusion and 3 stacks of bleed on them after a dodge? Was anyone calling for a nerf on this because there simply was no counter? Just so…confused about this one.

I just don’t get how this is seen as OP and find the dev’s explanation of the trait and play-style being ‘cheesy’ insufficient and insulting.

I am a bit confused too. They certainly seem to have an odd definition of cheesy.

The question is, let’s say i have 3 clones up, when i shatter my clones the little pink dots that indicates how many clones i have do not disappear until they reach their target or die, at this moment if i dodge will i proc new clones or not, because if i do not proc clones that’s a big nerf to shatter builds :/ (the only viable spec for tPvP btw).

[Sorry for my bad English hope you’ve understood my thoughts]

I guess I shouldn’t be surprised, doing ham fisted nerfs that effect most builds just to try and reduce the effectiveness of one build is par for the course here.

Its just why is it on clone death builds that are bothering them.

Combine with the pointless Crit damage nerf and I am wondering if I will even bother downloading the next patch.

I had to go back and watch the whole 20 seconds about this on the stream to try to decipher their rational behind this nerf (42 minutes in btw). This is what I could make out that they didn’t like about the trait:

• It proc’ed ‘on clone death’ traits
• It disrupted the flow of your clones (no idea what that means)
• It forced you to either ‘cheese it’ (again, no clue what this means) or
• It interrupts your game-play (still no idea what specific type of ‘game-play’ this inhibited, especially since on-clone death builds make this an integral part of their game-play)
• It feels broken (very subjective but ok)
• You have your clone, you’re attacking and you’re there and it’s changing all your positioning (???)
• It can replace Phantasms. No it can’t. (Yes it can.)

So to me the only thing that makes any sense is they feel the ‘on clone death’ traits are too powerful. Why they think this is anyone’s guess as they really didn’t say.

shimmerless.4560:

Curunen.8729:

I think the DE change is good – from what I understand, it shouldn’t affect shatter at all – will still be able to do diversion/MW bursts with 6 illusions out.

I’m happy it’s making on-death builds require more planning and active clone generation from weapons – but as stated earlier, hopefully the scepter’s auto attack is modified to support this.

What I’m concerned about is not seeing any mention of PU in there – hope they tone it down (and this is coming from a PU user) because build variety at the moment is pretty low.

Also concerned about our direct damage being too weak for the current state of the game – high toughness, condition meta – personally believe mind wrack and blurred frenzy both need a damage buff.

I’m fed up with losing direct damage for other little bits and pieces – for example scepter counter losing damage for torment, and sword auto losing damage for boon strip. Need MH pistol now, with heavy direct damage and possibly mobility!

This proposed change affects shatters quite badly, the specific ways are nuanced but they are there and they will have a tremendous impact on the spec’s performance in the future.

It’s a terrible and misguided change, and I really hope it doesn’t go through.

Critical infusion I can understand because less dodging = less clones for shatter. However if I understood the weapon sigil fixes correctly then we should be able to use sigil of energy on everything without affecting the cooldown of the second sigil.

With DE it seems my initial statement is wrong – so from what I understand now we won’t be able to do shatter combos using DE with >3 illusions out at once?

Edit: Ah, lightbulb moment – now I get it, with clone placement, positioning and targeting. Yeah, that sucks.

Wasbunny.6531:

I had to go back and watch the whole 20 seconds about this on the stream to try to decipher their rational behind this nerf (42 minutes in btw). This is what I could make out that they didn’t like about the trait:

• It proc’ed ‘on clone death’ traits
• It disrupted the flow of your clones (no idea what that means)
• It forced you to either ‘cheese it’ (again, no clue what this means) or
• It interrupts your game-play (still no idea what specific type of ‘game-play’ this inhibited, especially since on-clone death builds make this an integral part of their game-play)
• It feels broken (very subjective but ok)
• You have your clone, you’re attacking and you’re there and it’s changing all your positioning (???)
• It can replace Phantasms. No it can’t. (Yes it can.)

So to me the only thing that makes any sense is they feel the ‘on clone death’ traits are too powerful. Why they think this is anyone’s guess as they really didn’t say.

Lol. And these are our actual devs everyone. Seriously. These guys are in charge of balancing this game. sigh

I really think this nerf is absolutely unnecessary and I don’t even play mesmer... This removes the usefulness of mesmer roaming in spvp (if you have clones left up from a fight you got out of) and also removes a lot of unique play you were able to do with this by purposefully spawning a clone on you at timely situations.

Mesmer’s are just barely top tier.. These nerfs will push them down.

I made this to clearly explain issues with not being able to replace illusions:

http://imgur.com/a/kryzw

Pyroatheist.9031:

Wasbunny.6531:

I had to go back and watch the whole 20 seconds about this on the stream to try to decipher their rational behind this nerf (42 minutes in btw). This is what I could make out that they didn’t like about the trait:

• It proc’ed ‘on clone death’ traits
• It disrupted the flow of your clones (no idea what that means)
• It forced you to either ‘cheese it’ (again, no clue what this means) or
• It interrupts your game-play (still no idea what specific type of ‘game-play’ this inhibited, especially since on-clone death builds make this an integral part of their game-play)
• It feels broken (very subjective but ok)
• You have your clone, you’re attacking and you’re there and it’s changing all your positioning (???)
• It can replace Phantasms. No it can’t. (Yes it can.)

So to me the only thing that makes any sense is they feel the ‘on clone death’ traits are too powerful. Why they think this is anyone’s guess as they really didn’t say.

Lol. And these are our actual devs everyone. Seriously. These guys are in charge of balancing this game. sigh

yeah they sure laugh a lot when talking about mes and talk like the spvp warrior trolls that are raging over a mesmer they cant kill because ther 111111 earthshaker spam is not working.

Sorrow.7384:

I made this to clearly explain issues with not being able to replace illusions:

http://imgur.com/a/kryzw

Wow great job! That really does clearly illustrate one of the many negative impacts this unnecessary nerf will have. Thanks for taking the time to do that Sorrow.

Also, how about making our clones attack the proper target? I thought that was supposed to be fixed a while back. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve shattered on a player in PvP, and the clone(s) will shatter the rock dog, pet, or minion instead, even though I didn’t have it targeted.

Wasbunny.6531:

Sorrow.7384:

I made this to clearly explain issues with not being able to replace illusions:

http://imgur.com/a/kryzw

Wow great job! That really does clearly illustrate one of the many negative impacts this unnecessary nerf will have. Thanks for taking the time to do that Sorrow.

So sad we have to explain things like this to dev who are “balace designer”.

So sad we have a class with core mechanic f1 f2 f3 f4 and dev nerf\kill\put out of the meta 80% of builds that involve to use f1 f2 f3 f4 like shatter

So sad dev keep buffing build that involve to rarely use our f1 f2 f3 f4 (phantasm\pu)

Never been so sad in 12 years mmo balance

Sorrow.7384:

I made this to clearly explain issues with not being able to replace illusions:

http://imgur.com/a/kryzw

Excellent slideshow friend, very clear even to non-initiates who may be puzzled by the uproar. Have an upvote from me, really hope the devs see this

+1

aelfwe.4239:

Wasbunny.6531:

Sorrow.7384:

I made this to clearly explain issues with not being able to replace illusions:

http://imgur.com/a/kryzw

Wow great job! That really does clearly illustrate one of the many negative impacts this unnecessary nerf will have. Thanks for taking the time to do that Sorrow.

So sad we have to explain things like this to dev who are “balace designer”.

So sad we have a class with core mechanic f1 f2 f3 f4 and dev nerf\kill\put out of the meta 80% of builds that involve to use f1 f2 f3 f4 like shatter

So sad dev keep buffing build that involve to rarely use our f1 f2 f3 f4 (phantasm\pu)

Never been so sad in 12 years mmo balance

agree with u. i actually have been so sad too when glamour was nerfed to the ground and then to kick us even more they gave confusion to other classes with perplexity and can be stacked better by other classes.

This nerf hurts me harder than any before it. The very core of my build is throwing up two phantasms and hiding behind a clone. If the enemy decided to ignore all my illusions and focus on me, I would dodge right before an enemy hits me so they destroy the clone and trigger all the on-death ailments. This was done for defense as well as a mindgame to make my opponent feel that no method of attack is safe. Now that tool is being taken away from me and, for the life of me, I can’t understand why. Though I highly disagree with the glamour nerf, I understood the thought process behind it. I feel Blurred Frenzy was over-nerfed but I do agree that it needed one. What you guys did to iWarden was just wrong but I can see what you were trying to do. This, on the other hand, makes no sense whatsoever. What is so overpowered about dodging-rolling to destroy a clone and replace with another that it has to be nerfed? What’s even worse is why does this take priority over fixing problems that have plagued the class since beta?

I’ve read over the notes numerous times and there is no other obvious reason for the DE change than the devs wanting to nerf clone on death builds. I believe the “cheesing it” is referring to these types of builds and a mechanic they never intended. Even though I don’t understand what is so bad about this, fine. I can live with it. Their fix is terrible though.

This would solve that problem nicely:

Sorrow.7384:

If you want to nerf clone death spam, then nerf that trait itself (Debilitating Dissipation) or make it so the 3rd clone still replaces the last clone but doesn’t make it explode if there are already 3 up.

And this further shows why a change like this would be disastrous:

Sorrow.7384:

I made this to clearly explain issues with not being able to replace illusions:

http://imgur.com/a/kryzw

These need to see dev eyes before this abomination of a change goes in.

Don’t worry guys, as history suggests, Anet will compensate for our great loss with a brand-new exciting runeset with the 6th effect is to make a clone of at your position when you heal. /sarcrasm

Besides the vigor nerf (which I can kinda live with), I would like to have clarification regarding DE.
As of Jan 21st, when does your number of clones count as 3?
Is it, when you actually have 3 illusions out and all are attacking or just standing somewhere?
Is it, when you have 3 clones out, and all are attacking or just standing somewhere?
Is it, when you got 3 phantasms up and all are attacking or just standing somewhere?

The 3 cases above are pretty similar to each other, but it still needs some form of clarification. Nonetheless, what I really care about is the latter:
Do already shattered clones, which didn’t hit the target yet, count as dead?
Because currently they do. Will Anet change this with the upcoming patch? If yes, this would hurt even more then the DE nerf already does.
I main a shatter mesmer and is vital for me to line up daze and shatter chains for decent CC+burst or Cry of frustration 3 clones do strip stability and then dodge for a daze while those CoF clones didn’t hit yet.
This would seriously hurt shatter mesmer gameplay. Hopefully Anet keeps this as it is.

Just put on Death traits to have an icd of freakn 5seconds devs….

Since your warriors are not able to kill PU mesmers, you nerf one of the most central traits of a Mesmer (hell, I even used DE sometimes as a phantasm Mesmer!)

It’s so freakn obvious their main nerf target was the on Death build (PU). Instead, the balance teams fixes what isn’t broken and destroys build diversity.

JuThai.7941:

Besides the vigor nerf (which I can kinda live with), I would like to have clarification regarding DE.
As of Jan 21st, when does your number of clones count as 3?
Is it, when you actually have 3 illusions out and all are attacking or just standing somewhere?
Is it, when you have 3 clones out, and all are attacking or just standing somewhere?
Is it, when you got 3 phantasms up and all are attacking or just standing somewhere?

The 3 cases above are pretty similar to each other, but it still needs some form of clarification. Nonetheless, what I really care about is the latter:
Do already shattered clones, which didn’t hit the target yet, count as dead?
Because currently they do. Will Anet change this with the upcoming patch? If yes, this would hurt even more then the DE nerf already does.
I main a shatter mesmer and is vital for me to line up daze and shatter chains for decent CC+burst or Cry of frustration 3 clones do strip stability and then dodge for a daze while those CoF clones didn’t hit yet.
This would seriously hurt shatter mesmer gameplay. Hopefully Anet keeps this as it is.

Grouch we know you are there give us an awnser to this issue allready!

http://www.reddit.com/r/grouchpls

Stievie.6128:

Grouch we know you are there give us an awnser to this issue allready!

http://www.reddit.com/r/grouchpls

It’s Sunday.

Vigor nerf, deceptive evasion nerf and probably a energy sigil nerf(they said they are rebalanceing sigils/runes so..)

It’s going to be rough to play mesmer in tpvp next patch

Thedenofsin.7340:

I have come to the conclusion that this recommended change was simply not well thought out. This is a nerf to all builds, and it is completely unnecessary to nerf all builds in this manner.

I don’t see how this change causes what you mentioned. Sorry. All they do is no longer spawn an overwriting clone from a dodge if you’re already capped on illusions.

Well, this hurts:
Builds that use Clone death traits
Builds that use Shatter ability’s

This buffs:
Builds that are based Fully on phantasm, and really phantasm only.

But yeah, who the kitten runs full phantasm builds with X illusions trait anyway?

Tired of all these try hard pvp’ers ruining everything for us casual players that need all the help we can get…

Does anyone know if this mess is coming this Tuesday or if it’s somewhere down the line? I thought the latter but wasn’t sure.

Wow. Absent for a week and then this. “surprised”

Vuh.1328:

Vigor nerf, deceptive evasion nerf and probably a energy sigil nerf(they said they are rebalanceing sigils/runes so..)

It’s going to be rough to play mesmer in tpvp next patch

While the Sigil of Energy might be nerfed – although it has not been mentioned – the changes to the cooldowns of Sigils are actually a nice buff. I personally do not use Sigils of Energy in PvP at the moment because I prefer the brust from on crit Sigils. But now I will be able to use both.

I am not sure if the nerf to DE will be as bad a§ some people project. It certainly isn’t the doom for Shatter Mesmers. They are not specifically affected by it. All Mesmers are. As long as spawning a fourth clone while three to-be-shattered clones are on their way, there will be a work around for dodge-dazing. However, disabling on-death effects when spawning a clone with DE would have been a way more elegant solution if this really was the problem.

I personally really dislike the fact that ANet – again – double nerfs a certain mechanic/skill. It really reminds me of the Confusion nerf (Confusion + Glamours) or the double BF nerf. It probably would have been more sensible to nerf Vigor and wait how it plays out before touching DE.

LumAnth.5124:

Just put on Death traits to have an icd of freakn 5seconds devs….

Since your warriors are not able to kill PU mesmers, you nerf one of the most central traits of a Mesmer (hell, I even used DE sometimes as a phantasm Mesmer!)

It’s so freakn obvious their main nerf target was the on Death build (PU). Instead, the balance teams fixes what isn’t broken and destroys build diversity.

Hell, please no. Putting an ICD on the on-death traits will totally kill those traits and make pure on-death builds unplayable. The ICD would actually be a lot worse than the previewed DE change. While on-death traits are great in condition based PU builds they certainly are not the thing which get you killed.

Here’s the thing Xaylin.

It was obvious that what they were referring to “cheesing” was using DE to kill clones and activate the on death trait.

Their most used (and most lazy) fix to an “overpowered” trait/skill is add an ICD (see Necromancer)

What would’ve been better is, clones that die from DE should not proc the trait. Imo, it would’ve been better to tone down the traits than DE