Nope. Please for the love of my mesmer don’t make it baseline, having IP is the best choice! I don’t want to have to watch my dodges to make sure I don’t overwrite my own damage by overwritting a phantom with a clone. No thank you…let me dodge when I need to!
Correct me if I’m wrong, but creating a clone does not overwrite a phantasm, unless that’s all there is to overwrite. If there’s a clone, it will only replace that clone.
With that said, clones on dodge should not be baseline any more than a thief scattering caltrops on dodge should be. If it’s too hard to keep a steady stream of illusions coming out (and with them wanting us to focus on shattering them, it may very well be), then THAT is the problem that needs to be addressed for ALL builds.
I would love to have DE as baseline, but it shouldn’t be.
Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
But wouldn’t a phantasm mesmer only have phantasms out? Not familiar with mesmers, but I wouldn’t think phant mesmers would have normal clones out at all. So having DE baseline would screw them over.
But wouldn’t a phantasm mesmer only have phantasms out? Not familiar with mesmers, but I wouldn’t think they would have normal clones out at all. So having DE baseline would screw them over.
This is true, actually.
Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
NO! That is a terrible idea, a phantasm mesmer will always have 3 phantasms out and dodging anytime to lose one would really hurt the dps of this build alot.
Reason 1: a decent mesmer in PvE starts with phantasm – weapon swap – phantasm – healing signet – phantasm. Here you go, 3 phantasms. Any dodge will now remove a valuable phantasm, while you still need dodges overwriting illusions (including phantasms) in PvP builds.
Reason 2: aggro management. Stray illusions are awful in PvE – it is really annoying to play in a party with a DE mesmer when mobs suddenly get interested in that shiny butterfly clone (and my guild does have bad mesmers so I can tell).
If anything, Illusionary Invigoration could be baseline (instead of getting removed).
Correct me if I’m wrong, but creating a clone does not overwrite a phantasm, unless that’s all there is to overwrite. If there’s a clone, it will only replace that clone.
Consider yourself corrected. A clone created by anything will overwrite a third phantasm if there are three out.
It might be ompeting with a lot of other good traits and it will make a lot of builds less compeditive now, but clones on dodge for each mesmer is a bit over the top…
And I love my phantasmal mages… even though 2 is max due to scepter…
23 lvl 80’s, 9 times map, 4ele, 4ncr, 3war, 3grd, 3rgr, 2thf, 2msm, 1eng, 1 rev.
Been There, Done That & Will do it again…except maybe world completion.
This is way too mandatory for nearly all Mesmer builds, and not making it baseline limits the variability of builds Mesmers will be able to make.
Almost all Mesmers will have to take this Spec just to get this Trait. It should really be baseline.
I agree, DE should be made base line. I rarely see a Mes not running DE, and when I do they tend to die pretty quickly and horribly in PvP. Phantasms only builds may work better in group PvE, but in WvW and sPvP the rate your Phants are killed far exceeds the rate you can put them up.
I suggest making DE baseline, and replacing the trait with one that specifically removes clones on dodge for all 10 people who don’t want it.
They already make so many traits baseline for Mesmers, asking for more is just greedy. With the planned changes they’ll be more than strong enough.
Quote from dulfy.net:
“Traits that are made baseline: Illusionary Persona, Illusionary Elasticity, Protective Mantras (gain extra armor when you cast a mantra), Phantasmal damage boost traits, Manipulation range.”
They already make so many traits baseline for Mesmers, asking for more is just greedy. With the planned changes they’ll be more than strong enough.
Quote from dulfy.net:
“Traits that are made baseline: Illusionary Persona, Illusionary Elasticity, Protective Mantras (gain extra armor when you cast a mantra), Phantasmal damage boost traits, Manipulation range.”
Why is it greedy? Apparently the main point of reorganising the trait lines/specializations is to increase build diversity. So why put a trait that 99% of mesmers use in a specialization, when that means you have to choose that specialization primarily for that trait. That doesn’t make sense in this context.
It is not like DE is OP, is just adds to survivability and helps in shatters. Considering how weak clones are and the removal of on death traits, making it baseline just seems logical me.
Mesmer has been my main for several years now and I definitely enjoy having the option to turn this trait on and off for various situations throughout the game. The optimal builds for this trait seem to be those that run shatter, and I use shatter builds only about a third of the time I play mesmer; even in sPvP I try to experiment with new builds that don’t rely on DE.
This is way too mandatory for nearly all Mesmer builds, and not making it baseline limits the variability of builds Mesmers will be able to make.
Almost all Mesmers will have to take this Spec just to get this Trait. It should really be baseline.
I agree, DE should be made base line. I rarely see a Mes not running DE, and when I do they tend to die pretty quickly and horribly in PvP. Phantasms only builds may work better in group PvE, but in WvW and sPvP the rate your Phants are killed far exceeds the rate you can put them up.
I suggest making DE baseline, and replacing the trait with one that specifically removes clones on dodge for all 10 people who don’t want it.
I think you’re grossly underestimating how many mesmers run phantasm builds in PVE. And a trait like that sounds terrible, they would have to bake something else into it to make it interesting.
People are being too polite so I’m just going to outright say what everyone knows is true but isn’t saying, deceptive evasion as a baseline would be much worse than ‘inconvenient’ for some mesmer builds, it would drive any clone build in to the area of moronically overpowered. This needs to require an investment that competes with other clone build traits.
This is way too mandatory for nearly all Mesmer builds, and not making it baseline limits the variability of builds Mesmers will be able to make.
Almost all Mesmers will have to take this Spec just to get this Trait. It should really be baseline.
I agree, DE should be made base line. I rarely see a Mes not running DE, and when I do they tend to die pretty quickly and horribly in PvP. Phantasms only builds may work better in group PvE, but in WvW and sPvP the rate your Phants are killed far exceeds the rate you can put them up.
I suggest making DE baseline, and replacing the trait with one that specifically removes clones on dodge for all 10 people who don’t want it.
I think you’re grossly underestimating how many mesmers run phantasm builds in PVE. And a trait like that sounds terrible, they would have to bake something else into it to make it interesting.
This is way too mandatory for nearly all Mesmer builds, and not making it baseline limits the variability of builds Mesmers will be able to make.
Almost all Mesmers will have to take this Spec just to get this Trait. It should really be baseline.
I agree, DE should be made base line. I rarely see a Mes not running DE, and when I do they tend to die pretty quickly and horribly in PvP. Phantasms only builds may work better in group PvE, but in WvW and sPvP the rate your Phants are killed far exceeds the rate you can put them up.
I suggest making DE baseline, and replacing the trait with one that specifically removes clones on dodge for all 10 people who don’t want it.
I think you’re grossly underestimating how many mesmers run phantasm builds in PVE. And a trait like that sounds terrible, they would have to bake something else into it to make it interesting.
Where did I say that about PvE?
When you make that comment about how only 10 people don’t want DE that’s what you imply. Baseline DE would affect a lot of people.
Deceptive Evasion should be baseline because almost every single mesmer is locked into dueling just for that trait. That extremely limits the amount of viable builds.
In pve, there are some phantasm mesmers who try to maintain 3 phantasms to maximize damage. Nonetheless, the amount of mesmers not running deceptive evasion are in the tiny minority of mesmers.
I suggest making Deceptive Evasion baseline since promotes much more build diversity and appeals to the majority of mesmers who definitely locked into the dueling tree. And with that, Make a new trait combining Phantasmal Fury, Vengeful Images, and the added effect of clones not being able to overwrite phantasms in the illusion tree.
TLDR: Make DE Baseline. Make a new trait in the illusion tree combining Fury and Retaliation to phantasms, and added effect clones can’t overwrite Phantasms.
What do Phantasmal Mesmers want?
They want their phantasms to be as strong as possible.
They want to have 3 phantasms out at all times.
They want their phantasms to not be overwritten by a clone.
What do all other mesmers want?
They want a high clone generation rate.
The problem:
Deceptive Evasion summons a clone on dodge and it replaces a phantasm, if there are already 3 phantasms out. This is bad for phantasm mesmers only.
The solution:
If you want a phantasm build, you generally invest in traits that buff phantasms.
Since Anet is already going through the trouble of combining and removing lackluster traits. Why not combine some of the lackluster Phantasm traits and make it more interesting.
Combine the trait that gives phantasms fury with the trait that gives phantasms retaliation. In addition, this trait will make clones not replace phantasms.
If phantasm mesmers are already investing in these traits, this seems like a mutually beneficial fix. Make Deceptive Evasion baseline. Then all other mesmers won’t feel locked into the dueling tree. This will create more build diversity. Phantasmal mesmers will get what they want in a really good trait they would take anyway. And all other mesmers will get what they want.
I can’t think of any counter arguments to this. Btw, I have lots more solutions in mind to other problems :-)
it could be baseline unlike the broken achievement for luminescent armor which anet has stated they’ve known was broken for over a month now and has done nothing to fix it.
We’ll have to see. PvE Mesmers don’t need it, and will probably be annoyed by it.
The main factor we have to account for is Phantasm Builds. Will they become viable with the change, which seems to be buffing them in some areas, namely Inspiration and Duelist for either Phant Support or Phant Condi. If it does, then DE will no longer be, or just less of, a crutch for us.
I would agree with the game as it is now, but shatter doesn’t look like the default anymore. Condition, phantasm, support, and especially interrupt are much more viable than they used to be
I agree that it could be baseline with the current state of mesmer. The current mesmer relies heavily on clones and shatters since phantasms die easily and we need to have our defensive shatters ready.
By making IP baseline, they’ve given us shatters on command (namely distortion). And as people have also mentioned, DE baseline would technically do the same thing but would limit the number of phantasms you can have out to 2 if you ever want to dodge.
Therefore it makes perfect sense that we don’t need to have both DE and IP to keep the utility of our shatters at all time. If Anet wants to make phantasm builds more prevalent then it makes perfect sense to choose IP instead of DE.
If your build revolves around clone creation (shatter or clone death) then yes, you will probably want to go into the dueling tree. But now that we have IP as a baseline it is not as backbreakingly necessary as it used to be since we will hopefully see a resurgence of phantasm builds, confusion builds, interrupt builds etc.
Also — look at Hot Boy’s idea. This would also be a solid solution which would buff mesmer play.
This is way too mandatory for nearly all Mesmer builds, and not making it baseline limits the variability of builds Mesmers will be able to make.
Almost all Mesmers will have to take this Spec just to get this Trait. It should really be baseline.
Ignoring the trolling from “phantasm mesmers”, turning deceptive evasion into a grandmaster clearly goes against all that the mesmer community has advised as to it’s placement.
This will hamper builds that rely upon it such kittenter specs. Since they will need to waste an extra two points to get the trait.
This is way too mandatory for nearly all Mesmer builds, and not making it baseline limits the variability of builds Mesmers will be able to make.
Almost all Mesmers will have to take this Spec just to get this Trait. It should really be baseline.
I agree, DE should be made base line. I rarely see a Mes not running DE, and when I do they tend to die pretty quickly and horribly in PvP. Phantasms only builds may work better in group PvE, but in WvW and sPvP the rate your Phants are killed far exceeds the rate you can put them up.
I suggest making DE baseline, and replacing the trait with one that specifically removes clones on dodge for all 10 people who don’t want it.
I think you’re grossly underestimating how many mesmers run phantasm builds in PVE. And a trait like that sounds terrible, they would have to bake something else into it to make it interesting.
Where did I say that about PvE?
When you make that comment about how only 10 people don’t want DE that’s what you imply. Baseline DE would affect a lot of people.
You conveniently, ignored what I specifically said about PvE. Did I underestimate how many people don’t run DE….yes I meant to say 12.
Tying the majority of Mesmers to Dueling just to get DE defeats the main objective of the trait line restructuring, namely increasing build diversity.
This is way too mandatory for nearly all Mesmer builds, and not making it baseline limits the variability of builds Mesmers will be able to make.
Almost all Mesmers will have to take this Spec just to get this Trait. It should really be baseline.
Ignoring the trolling from “phantasm mesmers”, turning deceptive evasion into a grandmaster clearly goes against all that the mesmer community has advised as to it’s placement.
This will hamper builds that rely upon it such kittenter specs. Since they will need to waste an extra two points to get the trait.
Um, you understand how the new system works, right? Points don’t really matter…
And, as for phantasm mesmers, it’s not about what we think about them right now. They’re not good in PvP right now, for the most part. This is about their viability when this change comes about, thus the logic is thus: Instead of believing phantasm mesmers are weak, so ignore them in balance, why don’t we just make them stronger? Your logic is to ignore phantasm builds. ANet’s logic seems to be to strengthen them to the point of mattering, which I hope works.
Stop arguing from one extreme or the other. It shouldn’t be a baseline. I don’t care how useful it would be, I’m a control freak and I dislike random clones popping out unless that’s a choice I made. This matters a lot in high-level fractals where maintaining three phantasms is hard enough.
However, nor should it have been a GM. It was already in its correct position, a mid-tier trait. According to their stated criteria for GM traits, it does not “define your build” unless your build is phantasm vs. EVERYTHING ELSE a Mesmer does. If they wanted to make it a GM trait, it should’ve had more effects added onto it.
Actually all three GM Dueling traits seem lackluster to me for that position. Harmonious Mantras is still not enough to make mantras good, and Mistrust is…a tiny AoE of confusion very occasionally.
Meanwhile, all three of the master traits are must-haves…
Given what they did to Warrior Adrenaline, do you really think they want a Mesmer’s shatters to be “DE as baseline” strong? It is a huge jump in power that, yes, should require a significant investment to obtain.
And if this is the “only good way” to make a Mesmer in most situations, then that kind of says they need to buff the other aspects to make them stronger, not make this way easier.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but creating a clone does not overwrite a phantasm, unless that’s all there is to overwrite. If there’s a clone, it will only replace that clone.
Consider yourself corrected. A clone created by anything will overwrite a third phantasm if there are three out.
That’s why I said “unless that’s all there is to overwrite”. Still, thank you for confirming what I understood. I don’t want my arguments to be based on incorrect data.
Sarcasm, delivered with a
delicate, brick-like subtlety.
This is way too mandatory for nearly all Mesmer builds, and not making it baseline limits the variability of builds Mesmers will be able to make.
Almost all Mesmers will have to take this Spec just to get this Trait. It should really be baseline.
Ignoring the trolling from “phantasm mesmers”, turning deceptive evasion into a grandmaster clearly goes against all that the mesmer community has advised as to it’s placement.
This will hamper builds that rely upon it such kittenter specs. Since they will need to waste an extra two points to get the trait.
the point system is gone.
you just invest in a line and unlock the whole thing now.
I’d rather just see it moved back to master tier that way you don’t have to fully invest into 1 trait line to get the glue for your shatter clone production and then phantasms still have nothing to worry about. I understand why they made it grandmaster but I still disagree with their decision to do so.
Once again as has been said above. GM traits are no longer special at lvl 80. With the new system you will have 3 adept, 3 master, 3 grandmaster traits no matter what. The only difference is what they are competing with. Honestly, I’m pretty happy that DE isn’t is the same trait as blinding dissipation or evasive mirror which both seem interesting — only downside is a loss of harmonious mantras in shatter builds (RIP)
there is no investment
you can only select 3 lines now.
placement is more importamt for mutual exclusiveness now, rather than power.
really they should get rid of the whole idea of master/adept/gm there is no difference between needing a specialization for for an adept or needing it for a gm now, its the same investment
Totally agree from a pvp point of view. There is a reason every pvp build takes the trait.
Out of the four mesmers I have, two of them don’t have a single point in the duelist traitline. One is specifically a bunker build for pvp and the other is specifically to cause havoc for wvw. Both are hell to deal with. That alone makes your statement false.
Deceptive evasion is very powerful but it isn’t necessary. If fact, it would hamper my bunker build because that requires three specific phantasms to work.
We can all pull out niche builds. Sadly de is a very dependable trait. So much so as to why it should be baseline. The whole idea of build diversity hinges upon it. Would be nice to make clones and use our class mechanic without going into a trait line.
Totally agree from a pvp point of view. There is a reason every pvp build takes the trait.
Out of the four mesmers I have, two of them don’t have a single point in the duelist traitline. One is specifically a bunker build for pvp and the other is specifically to cause havoc for wvw. Both are hell to deal with. That alone makes your statement false.
Deceptive evasion is very powerful but it isn’t necessary. If fact, it would hamper my bunker build because that requires three specific phantasms to work.
But wouldn’t a phantasm mesmer only have phantasms out? Not familiar with mesmers, but I wouldn’t think they would have normal clones out at all. So having DE baseline would screw them over.
This is true, actually.
It’s awefully hard, and sub-optimal to have three phants out for long without spawning a clone from a weapon skill. Unless you’re talking PvE and you only AA, obstaining from things like mirror blade or OH sword 4.
In PvP you need scepter 2 block, OH sword 4 block, mirror blade for the damage/might, phase retreat, MH sword for iLeap imob, or swap just for evasive measures. With this in mind, DE suddenly makes no difference to a “phantasm” build in terms of loosing a phant to a clone spawn. It’s inevitable.
I would agree with the game as it is now, but shatter doesn’t look like the default anymore. Condition, phantasm, support, and especially interrupt are much more viable than they used to be
Most of the specs you listed will want to shatter clones quite often.
~
It’s very hard not to come up with a spec that doesn’t want to shatter clones quite often, because having clones to shatter enables four different abilities, at least three of which are pretty good on any particular mesmer.
Phantasm builds mainly exist in the weird world where you basically don’t want anything that’s not pure sustained damage or some kind of evade/invulnerability (reflection, conveniently, manages to act as a bit of both), so they forgo shatter. But this is also the world where, right now, literally trading away all your utilities for +12% damage on auto attacks is considered one of the best builds you could possible play. PvE is just straight-up pigeonholed and busted like that.
(This isn’t an argument for free DE. But it is an argument for “There’s no way to ‘balance’ the game that wouldn’t make a trait that turns on four whole skills slots anything short of highly desirable.”)
realized I messed up.