Pineapples rule
(edited by Jurica.1742)
Desperate Decoy
EU – Multiple times #1 SoloQ pre Dec 2014 (pure MMR based ladder)
Primoridal (S1) & Exalted (S2) & Illustrious (S3) Legend
Primoridal (S1) & Exalted (S2) & Illustrious (S3) Legend
I’m having a really hard time with the Duelling line since the rework. I still pick it but mostly for the Major Master / Grandmaster traits. The Adept traits are a mess for anyone not running Pistol (and to some degree Focus). I also still believe that there is a huge amount of redundancy which needs to be cleaned up (Sharper Images + Duelists Discipline + Phantasmal Fury).
I don’t think it should be a Protection trait, though. But Distortion would work. 
Something I’d enjoy:
- Make Phantasmal Fury the new Master Minor
- Make Sharper Images an Adept Major
- Remove Bleeding from Duelists Discipline. Make the Duelists attacks pierce instead.
- Remove Desperate Decoy and replace it with a ‘Remove Boon on crititcal hit’ trait.
For me personally this would be a much cleaner set up. Shatter and Interrupt builds would pick Duelists Discipline or the generic Boon removal trait. Phantasm builds can pick Sharper Images (condi/hybrid) or Duelists Discipline (others). Duelling Adept currently really lacks a generic trait which is versatile enough to not be useless in non-Pistol-non-Phantasm builds.
I’m having a really hard time with the Duelling line since the rework. I still pick it but mostly for the Major Master / Grandmaster traits. The Adept traits are a mess for anyone not running Pistol (and to some degree Focus). I also still believe that there is a huge amount of redundancy which needs to be cleaned up (Sharper Images + Duelists Discipline + Phantasmal Fury).
I don’t think it should be a Protection trait, though. But Distortion would work.
Something I’d enjoy:
- Make Phantasmal Fury the new Master Minor
- Make Sharper Images an Adept Major
- Remove Bleeding from Duelists Discipline. Make the Duelists attacks pierce instead.
- Remove Desperate Decoy and replace it with a ‘Remove Boon on crititcal hit’ trait.
For me personally this would be a much cleaner set up. Shatter and Interrupt builds would pick Duelists Discipline or the generic Boon removal trait. Phantasm builds can pick Sharper Images (condi/hybrid) or Duelists Discipline (others). Duelling Adept currently really lacks a generic trait which is versatile enough to not be useless in non-Pistol-non-Phantasm builds.
I like these changes a lot and agree it needs sorting out.
I’m having a really hard time with the Duelling line since the rework. I still pick it but mostly for the Major Master / Grandmaster traits. The Adept traits are a mess for anyone not running Pistol (and to some degree Focus). I also still believe that there is a huge amount of redundancy which needs to be cleaned up (Sharper Images + Duelists Discipline + Phantasmal Fury).
I don’t think it should be a Protection trait, though. But Distortion would work.
Something I’d enjoy:
- Make Phantasmal Fury the new Master Minor
- Make Sharper Images an Adept Major
- Remove Bleeding from Duelists Discipline. Make the Duelists attacks pierce instead.
- Remove Desperate Decoy and replace it with a ‘Remove Boon on crititcal hit’ trait.
For me personally this would be a much cleaner set up. Shatter and Interrupt builds would pick Duelists Discipline or the generic Boon removal trait. Phantasm builds can pick Sharper Images (condi/hybrid) or Duelists Discipline (others). Duelling Adept currently really lacks a generic trait which is versatile enough to not be useless in non-Pistol-non-Phantasm builds.
I like these changes a lot and agree it needs sorting out.
Changes sound good though I can only imagine how buggy it would make pistol#5 (magic bullet)
Have fun. Be Alive. K Thnx Bye.
N*** Dew Gunnar’s Hold
WvW Roaming with Mesmer
WvW Roaming with Mesmer
N*** Dew Gunnar’s Hold
WvW Roaming with Mesmer
WvW Roaming with Mesmer
N*** Dew Gunnar’s Hold
WvW Roaming with Mesmer
WvW Roaming with Mesmer
How about a totally different trait?
Arcane Generosity – Trigger Arcane Thievery while having at least 3 different conditions and taking damage under 50% health or receiving up to at least 3 conditions when under 50% health.
This doesn’t work because arcane thievery needs a target. If it triggers while you have no target, it would just fizzle.
It could work the same way as the necro passive signet it randomly chooses a target.
This could work. It would become:
Case arcane thievery on hit when you have 3 or more conditions on you.
Considering it’s Dueling I’d prefer it being on crit. But I like the idea. 
I’d think about fixing Duelist’s Discipline before changing it completely. We don’t even know for sure how it plays when functional, because it hasn’t been functional this whole time.
What’s the point? The bleed is completely redundant because we got Sharper Images. That’s exactly what I dislike about the trait. If it worked you just had two Bleed traits for your Duelists which becomes extremly unpredictable and hard to balance. For the Mesmer, the Bleeds are basically non-existant even if it worked.
(edited by AlphatheWhite.9351)
Nothing that stacks intensity is redundant. How does this even make sense? Further, the DD bleeds are not dependent on crits, enabling non-crit builds to take advantage of the trait.
It is redundant. Or how would you feel about two traits in Adept where one gave Bleeds on crit and one gave Bleeds on hit by chance? That’s exactly the same. Just that it is even more limited in case of DD.
If you see this as build diversity… I really don’t find that appealing. That aside, Dueling is more about crit than on hit. We would still be stuck with a conceptual flaw.
If it worked you just had two Bleed traits for your Duelists which becomes extremly unpredictable and hard to balance.
“Extremely Unpredictable” in what way? The math is precisely calculable for DD. …
And how do you account for different builds with different crit chances and the combined effect of those traits? Ultimatively it probably will be balanced around high crit build and the on hit chance will be underwhelming in any other scenario. Not very desirable, really.
Nothing that stacks intensity is redundant. How does this even make sense? Further, the DD bleeds are not dependent on crits, enabling non-crit builds to take advantage of the trait.
It is redundant. Or how would you feel about two traits in Adept where one gave Bleeds on crit and one gave Bleeds on hit by chance? That’s exactly the same. Just that it is even more limited in case of DD.
If you see this as build diversity… I really don’t find that appealing. That aside, Dueling is more about crit than on hit. We would still be stuck with a conceptual flaw.
If it worked you just had two Bleed traits for your Duelists which becomes extremly unpredictable and hard to balance.
“Extremely Unpredictable” in what way? The math is precisely calculable for DD. …
And how do you account for different builds with different crit chances and the combined effect of those traits? Ultimatively it probably will be balanced around high crit build and the on hit chance will be underwhelming in any other scenario. Not very desirable, really.
You realize that phantasmal fury and DD share a spot, right?
It is redundant. Or how would you feel about two traits in Adept where one gave Bleeds on crit and one gave Bleeds on hit by chance? That’s exactly the same. Just that it is even more limited in case of DD.
That would be redundant because you can’t have both. Because you can have both Sharper Images and Duelist’s Discipline, it’s not redundant, it’s additive.
DD and PF do compete, and both amplify bleeds, but their other effects make the difference, as I said.
If you see this as build diversity… I really don’t find that appealing. That aside, Dueling is more about crit than on hit. We would still be stuck with a conceptual flaw.
One trait that enhances all phantasms, and one trait that enhances pistols specifically. I don’t see the problem, they have different focuses and benefits, and some overlap in that they both increase bleeds.
And how do you account for different builds with different crit chances and the combined effect of those traits? Ultimatively it probably will be balanced around high crit build and the on hit chance will be underwhelming in any other scenario. Not very desirable, really.
What? The crit chance bonus from Phantasmal Fury is always 20%, regardless of what build you are running. Its chance of applying bleed is always the same, therefore.
Furthermore, you can’t combine PF and DD because they compete.
I already did the math, I already pointed out that the benefit of a fixed DD is a good one, and it is desirable. The math behind it is strong.
N*** Dew Gunnar’s Hold
WvW Roaming with Mesmer
WvW Roaming with Mesmer
You realize that phantasmal fury and DD share a spot, right?
I didn’t really speak about Phantasmal Fury in that post…
That would be redundant because you can’t have both. Because you can have both Sharper Images and Duelist’s Discipline, it’s not redundant, it’s additive.
DD and PF do compete, and both amplify bleeds, but their other effects make the difference, as I said.
Something being additive doesn’t make it less redundant. If you followed that argument you could pack one bleeding trait per tier and label it all right. Because it’s additive. How boring would that be? You could go on – to exaggerate a bit – and add even more bleed traits. Some relying on Dodge, some on crit, some on hit, some on shatter.
You would have ‘diversity’. But it wouldn’t feel like it. Because it misses flavour.
One trait that enhances all phantasms, and one trait that enhances pistols specifically. I don’t see the problem, they have different focuses and benefits, and some overlap in that they both increase bleeds.
I’m bothered by that overlap – although it’s not the only issue the lower Dueling tiers have. I might be a bit less annoyed if it was Confusion on x% hit. The bleeds are clearly and afterthought or a bandaid because they wanted to ensure a sufficient amounts of bleeds on Pistol (since you cant PF + DD anymore). Even if it wasn’t it is pretty sloppy conceptually. As already said: Why would anything in Dueling be ‘on hit’?
I already did the math, I already pointed out that the benefit of a fixed DD is a good one, and it is desirable. The math behind it is strong.
I didn’t argue about it’s effectiveness or desirability. I just feel it is conceptually weak and – regardless of it being additive – being redundant. I see it as a wasted opportunity for the trait.
That aside, the problem remains that we don’t have a ‘filler-trait’ for the Adept tier in Dueling. Because Phantasmal Fury and DD ultimatively are appealing to very similar builds – because – surprise – they basically do the same to a different degree.
It also doesn’t change the fact that Sharper Images is an odd choice for a Minor in the context of the whole traitline. Dueling just doesn’t work like Arms, Firearms or Curses. I would feel different about this if we still had Confusing Combatants. But we don’t.
Yaniam [Mesmer]
^ Usually only characer that i play on
^ Usually only characer that i play on
You realize that phantasmal fury and DD share a spot, right?
I didn’t really speak about Phantasmal Fury in that post…
That would be redundant because you can’t have both. Because you can have both Sharper Images and Duelist’s Discipline, it’s not redundant, it’s additive.
DD and PF do compete, and both amplify bleeds, but their other effects make the difference, as I said.Something being additive doesn’t make it less redundant. If you followed that argument you could pack one bleeding trait per tier and label it all right. Because it’s additive. How boring would that be? You could go on – to exaggerate a bit – and add even more bleed traits. Some relying on Dodge, some on crit, some on hit, some on shatter.
You would have ‘diversity’. But it wouldn’t feel like it. Because it misses flavour.
One trait that enhances all phantasms, and one trait that enhances pistols specifically. I don’t see the problem, they have different focuses and benefits, and some overlap in that they both increase bleeds.
I’m bothered by that overlap – although it’s not the only issue the lower Dueling tiers have. I might be a bit less annoyed if it was Confusion on x% hit. The bleeds are clearly and afterthought or a bandaid because they wanted to ensure a sufficient amounts of bleeds on Pistol (since you cant PF + DD anymore). Even if it wasn’t it is pretty sloppy conceptually. As already said: Why would anything in Dueling be ‘on hit’?
I already did the math, I already pointed out that the benefit of a fixed DD is a good one, and it is desirable. The math behind it is strong.
I didn’t argue about it’s effectiveness or desirability. I just feel it is conceptually weak and – regardless of it being additive – being redundant. I see it as a wasted opportunity for the trait.
That aside, the problem remains that we don’t have a ‘filler-trait’ for the Adept tier in Dueling. Because Phantasmal Fury and DD ultimatively are appealing to very similar builds – because – surprise – they basically do the same to a different degree.
It also doesn’t change the fact that Sharper Images is an odd choice for a Minor in the context of the whole traitline. Dueling just doesn’t work like Arms, Firearms or Curses. I would feel different about this if we still had Confusing Combatants. But we don’t.
On redundancy, I think there’s a definitional miscommunication here.
re·dun·dant
adjective
not or no longer needed or useful; superfluous.
Needed is a question, but that’s a question that can apply to even unrelated traits, so I assume that’s only meaningful in context. No longer ‘needed’ is a question of whether existing elements solve the problem. Given that condi mesmer is a niche build in pvp and an underpowered build in PvE, I’d say adding more bleeds can certainly be needed.
Useful, I’ve already answered that, DD’s extra bleeds are certainly useful.
Superfluous. Which defined says “unnecessary, especially through being more than enough”. Is Sharper Images on its own enough, and DD more than enough? Math on bleeds says that Sharper images+PF is not enough bleeds for PvE viability, but DD does get there. But does the presence of PF make DD more than enough, or unnecessary? Well, not if you want both pistol cooldown and bleeds on iDuelist, and I do. Plus, DD brings a condi build to viability, while PF does not.
Is it perhaps that PF is superfluous? Well no, PF raising crit chance applies to every phantasm, not just iDuelist, so any build that doesn’t use iDuelist gets no benefit from DD. Furthermore, the bleeds from iDuelist provide minimal benefit to power builds, while PF provides all benefit to power builds. So PF provides significant benefit that DD does not, and DD provides benefit that PF can not. Neither, then, is unnecessary, or more than enough, so neither is superfluous, nor are they redundant.
Frankly, I regard PF’s adding of bleeds to just be an odd, unexpected interaction with Sharper Images that happens to swing in my favor. It’s not redundant because it’s not the point of the trait, nor its primary benefit (enhancing phantasm damage for power builds).
I do, however, get your point asking how much bleeding is too much bleeding, especially in a “Dueling” tree.
I find it odd that you think a confusion trait would be okay but not a bleed trait. We have a LOT more sources of confusion than bleed already. But the simple fact is that confusion is a pvp condition, but it’s PvE performance that I’m most concerned with regarding DD and Sharper Images. We need more pve-oriented condis, not less.
We’re not exactly suffering in pvp 1v1s, so unless the confusion was somehow aoe (mistrust that doesn’t compete with DE?), I don’t see how it would benefit the class as a whole.
Back to the question “how many bleeds is too many”:
1. As I said, I don’t consider PF to be a bleed trait. It just happens to interact with Sharper Images. It would do the same to any “x on phantasm crit” trait that they came up with, whether it did bleeds or not. PF’s primary use is on power builds to get more damage from their phantasms, and that doesn’t change whether DD adds bleeds or not.
2. DD + Sharper Images = 2 bleed traits. Thief has 4 poison-related traits in the Deadly Arts tree. Is that too much? I really don’t think so. 2 is not bad.
3. As many bleeds as it takes to make condi builds viable in PvE is where I’d personally put the line. Sharper Images on its own doesn’t do that (even with PF), and I don’t see a good way to change that trait to account for it. Ergo, another trait is warranted.
To your point “why in dueling?” This includes your question about “on-hit” versus “on-crit” for DD:
I don’t know why they chose dueling specifically, but your responses suggest you believe Dueling is all about crit chance (hence your question as why DD would be “on-hit” instead of “on-crit”).
1. Dueling being the “crit” tree is a matter of convenience and history, and that is all. No tree in any class is exclusively about only one mechanic. Even Critical Strikes, a tree named specifically after crits, has at least one trait that’s not about crits (it’s their signet trait). Dueling doesn’t mean “critting”, it means…dueling, single-target play. Even that is just a placeholder that they use to create thematic trees, it’s hardly a straightjacket (chaos has a number of traits that aren’t in any way unpredictable…is that a bad thing?). Since they took out stats on trait lines, the only thing attaching Dueling to crits is that it happens to have a number of crit-oriented traits. There’s no reason whatsoever to be offended when a trait doesn’t do that.
2. On-hit effects is easily thematic with dueling.
3. Personally, I agree that confusion is more thematic with “dueling”, but unless they move the bleed traits to a different line and the confusion traits to dueling, I’d rather they not replace bleeds with confusion. Condi mes needs bleeds (or burning, or poison) for PvE, it’s just a shame they are so hesitant to give it to us.
4. Not every condi build has much crit chance. DD allows iDuelist to still be a useful condi phantasm without requiring crit chance. One might wonder why you’re in Dueling with poor crit chance, wasting Sharper Images and all, but Deceptive Evasion is in that tree after all.
Okay, so that leaves one more question:
Why make iDuelist a condi phantasm at all?
- Because Sharper Images already did that. The condi phantasms are: iMage, iDuelist (but only because of SI). Torch’s role is defined defensively, pistol is defined offensively. Ignore that iMage is wayy too weak, Anet simply missed that fact. So Anet has a choice now: make the pistol trait better for condi builds, or better for power builds. PF does benefit condi builds already, but it benefits power builds even more (partly because power builds have more phantasm options, partly because power builds generally have ferocity). So, deciding to make DD a condi trait becomes a simple “who needs it the most?”. Fixing DD is likewise. If they made iMage competitive (3 stacks of burn, 20-24s cooldown), I guarantee the complaining about broken DD would die a quick death, and they could go ahead and swap the effect out for something else.
Regarding “wasted opportunity”:
You might be right. I personally, as a big proponent of making condi mesmer more viable, think it’s a great trait—if they fix it. But as I mentioned above, making iMage competitive would solve the problem nicely, giving room for DD to be more pistol-themed.
Lastly, regarding “filler trait”: I’m sure that’s what Desperate Decoy was supposed to be. I agree wholeheartedly that it needs to be revised, but the state of the mesmer right now makes me want them to fix DD rather than change it at the same time.
On redundancy, I think there’s a definitional miscommunication here.
re·dun·dant
adjective
not or no longer needed or useful; superfluous.
Maybe it is. In German you could also use it in a sense of ‘duplicate’.
Given that condi mesmer is a niche build in pvp and an underpowered build in PvE, I’d say adding more bleeds can certainly be needed.
Maybe. Possibly. But most certainly you don’t need all bleed options cramped into one small part of one specific tree. I’d rather see something ‘Debilitating Dissipation’ like in Chaos but triggered through a different mechanic.
Again: While PF+Sharper Images might be weaker than DD+Sharper Images depending on your gear. It still results in the same outcome. Bleeds. The only difference is the trigger. Which ultimatively is almost identical (hit vs. crit).
I find it odd that you think a confusion trait would be okay but not a bleed trait. We have a LOT more sources of confusion than bleed already.
It would be more of a choice. Do you want Bleeding or Confusion? Confusion also fits the Pistol way better. Especially when combined with Mistrust.
Yes, we already got other sources of Confusion. But few of them are non-shatter.
2. DD + Sharper Images = 2 bleed traits. Thief has 4 poison-related traits in the Deadly Arts tree. Is that too much? I really don’t think so. 2 is not bad.
Comparing those two lines won’t work. I would agree if Dueling had three Minors regarding Bleeding just like Arms or Firearms. But it doesn’t. Deadly Arts has two traits on the Adept level which apply Poison. But one of them isn’t centered around Poison. It just triggers a skill which happens to also apply Poison. Deadly Arts also happens to have a universally useful trait on that tier: Mug. So nobody is screwed when not aiming for additional Poison.
In Dueling Adept you got two traits which can ultimatively lead to very similar results. Not in all scenarios. But in many scenarios which are relevant for this traitline. They cater very similar builds leaving no space for a trait which is helpful for other builds. Unless you count Decoy. Which happens to be crap.
To your point “why in dueling?” This includes your question about “on-hit” versus “on-crit” for DD:
I don’t know why they chose dueling specifically, but your responses suggest you believe Dueling is all about crit chance (hence your question as why DD would be “on-hit” instead of “on-crit”).
That part is more rhetorical. I wouldn’t like it any better if it was on crit.
1. Dueling being the “crit” tree is a matter of convenience and history, and that is all. No tree in any class is exclusively about only one mechanic. Even Critical Strikes, a tree named specifically after crits, has at least one trait that’s not about crits (it’s their signet trait). Dueling doesn’t mean “critting”, it means…dueling, single-target play. Even that is just a placeholder that they use to create thematic trees, it’s hardly a straightjacket (chaos has a number of traits that aren’t in any way unpredictable…is that a bad thing?). Since they took out stats on trait lines, the only thing attaching Dueling to crits is that it happens to have a number of crit-oriented traits. There’s no reason whatsoever to be offended when a trait doesn’t do that.
Dueling still is about crits. Just look at the Minors. It already got plenty non-crit traits which actually make sense (Evasive Mirror, Blinding Dissipation, Harmonious Mantras). A on-hit trait in a crit-themed traitline does not.
You also literally picked the only trait in Critical Strikes which does not involve critical hits or critical damage.
2. On-hit effects is easily thematic with dueling.
Yes. In the right context. In this case I’d disagree. Dueling is not only about critical hits and critical damage. But it most certainly is not about on hit.
3. Personally, I agree that confusion is more thematic with “dueling”, but unless they move the bleed traits to a different line and the confusion traits to dueling, I’d rather they not replace bleeds with confusion. Condi mes needs bleeds (or burning, or poison) for PvE, it’s just a shame they are so hesitant to give it to us.
You’d still have Bleeding from PF + Sharper Images, really.
4. Not every condi build has much crit chance. DD allows iDuelist to still be a useful condi phantasm without requiring crit chance. One might wonder why you’re in Dueling with poor crit chance, wasting Sharper Images and all, but Deceptive Evasion is in that tree after all.
This is true. But non-crit condition builds are most likely shatter focussed anyway. Because there is no other way you could successfully play a condition build on Mesmers otherwise. This makes the additional Bleeds on DD just a nuance. It won’t make or break this type of build.
Lastly, regarding “filler trait”: I’m sure that’s what Desperate Decoy was supposed to be. I agree wholeheartedly that it needs to be revised, but the state of the mesmer right now makes me want them to fix DD rather than change it at the same time.
Fair enough. Dueling Adept would probably would be less annoying if Desperate Decoy actually did something universally useful (not involving Decoy since Stealth is only useful in PvP situations at best). I’d still argue that the Bleeds on DD are a wasted opportunity, though. And I’d still argue that PF would be a better Master Minor than Sharper Images.
Maybe. Possibly. But most certainly you don’t need all bleed options cramped into one small part of one specific tree. I’d rather see something ‘Debilitating Dissipation’ like in Chaos but triggered through a different mechanic.
Give me a decent bleed proc in Chaos (averaging at least 3 bleeds per 6s) and I’ll happily accept a change to DD.
Again: While PF+Sharper Images might be weaker than DD+Sharper Images depending on your gear.
To nitpick, it doesn’t depend on your gear. PF is always 20% crit chance to phantasms, so unless you’re already above 80% crit chance without Fury (no condi build does this),
it’s always the same chance: 20% per attack. Nothing about it scales with existing crit chance.
It still results in the same outcome. Bleeds. The only difference is the trigger. Which ultimatively is almost identical (hit vs. crit).
Only for condi builds, though. Most builds which run dueling are power builds, and the difference is therefore very large, as PF dramatically increases iDuelist’s damage, while DD dramatically decreases the recharge time on iDuelist and Magic Bullet. The extra bleeds at that point are just an accepted side benefit, worth just a little, next to the main event of both traits, which is very dissimilar. Condi builds are the only place where the bleeds rise to such importance that the bleeds overshadow the other benefits.
That said, I’d like to be able to take the pistol recharge trait and not sacrifice bleeds for it. PF is fine for adding bleeds, but I’d rather be using the pistol trait for the pistol phantasm. Of course, I’d also rather DD not depend its cooldown reduction on interrupts, as that’s worthless in pve, so I guess I’m screwed from both sides :P
It would be more of a choice. Do you want Bleeding or Confusion? Confusion also fits the Pistol way better. Especially when combined with Mistrust.
I could see that, assuming Mistrust were ever actually fixed. Right now you get more confusion of out DE than you do out of Mistrust!
Yes, we already got other sources of Confusion. But few of them are non-shatter.
You noted Mistrust, Confusing Images is 6 stacks on a low cooldown, Perplexity Runes are available for discriminating Mesmers, Ethereal fields apply confusion on combo, Magic Bullet applies confusion already, Ineptitude adds confusion to blinds, while also giving blinds to all blocks/evades (so every dodge, block and distortion can proc confusion), and confusion is one of the three conditions applied by chaos armor.
So I respectfully disagree, we actually have a lot of confusion available outside shatters. Adding in shatters themselves just ramps that up significantly.
Compare that to Engineers, who have all conditions available on just one weapon set, and you can see one reason we might be falling behind in pve particularly.
Comparing those two lines won’t work. I would agree if Dueling had three Minors regarding Bleeding just like Arms or Firearms. But it doesn’t. Deadly Arts has two traits on the Adept level which apply Poison. But one of them isn’t centered around Poison. It just triggers a skill which happens to also apply Poison. Deadly Arts also happens to have a universally useful trait on that tier: Mug. So nobody is screwed when not aiming for additional Poison.
In Dueling Adept you got two traits which can ultimatively lead to very similar results. Not in all scenarios. But in many scenarios which are relevant for this traitline. They cater very similar builds leaving no space for a trait which is helpful for other builds. Unless you count Decoy. Which happens to be crap.
Well, we certainly have agreed on the need to change Desperate Decoy, so I think we have some space to breathe around how Duelist’s Discipline needs to be dealt with.
Dueling still is about crits. Just look at the Minors. It already got plenty non-crit traits which actually make sense (Evasive Mirror, Blinding Dissipation, Harmonious Mantras). A on-hit trait in a crit-themed traitline does not.
I’m still not sure why on-hit would be especially out of place in a tree that just happens to have more crit stuff. Dueling is the theme, not crit. Crit just happens to be a sub-theme they’ve chosen, but anything that improves the ability of the mesmer to duel is a candidate, and on-hit procs can easily do that.
You also literally picked the only trait in Critical Strikes which does not involve critical hits or critical damage.
Yes, that was the point, that a theme is not an unbreakable rule, even in the most critical-oriented traitline in the entire game. I went out of my way to find the worst one.
Yes. In the right context. In this case I’d disagree. Dueling is not only about critical hits and critical damage. But it most certainly is not about on hit.
See, as I said above, that makes no sense to me. On-hit is just a mechanic. If the trait is relevant to dueling, it’s relevant to dueling, whether it uses crits or hits. If there were no critical hits mechanic in GW2, you’d still be able to duel. I’m not even sure why crits would be especially “dueling” focused, except that Anet likes crit traits and had to stick them somewhere. I mean, all crits are is a damage mod with an RNG added. That’s hardly exclusive to any particular segment of play.
You’d still have Bleeding from PF + Sharper Images, really.
Granted, but unfortunately it’s not enough. I’ve done the math a lot, and you’d just need more from PF for iDuelist to provide enough dps to make Mesmers competitive in PvE. Or an increase in bleeds elsewhere (see your suggestion to add something to Chaos).
But non-crit condition builds are most likely shatter focussed anyway. Because there is no other way you could successfully play a condition build on Mesmers otherwise. This makes the additional Bleeds on DD just a nuance. It won’t make or break this type of build.
Point taken.
Fair enough. Dueling Adept would probably would be less annoying if Desperate Decoy actually did something universally useful (not involving Decoy since Stealth is only useful in PvP situations at best). I’d still argue that the Bleeds on DD are a wasted opportunity, though. And I’d still argue that PF would be a better Master Minor than Sharper Images.
Mostly agreed. Though if they do end up rebalancing Phantasm and mesmer weapon damage, PF will end up sucking hardcore without Sharper Images. They’ll need to rebalance phantasm traits in general at that point, though.
I’d like to reiterate that I think the best solution would be to make iMage a competitive phantasm by giving at least 2 burns for 6s or even 3 burns for 4 seconds, turning down iMage’s cooldown to 20-24s, and raising the burn stacks on The Prestige to 3.
Then changing Duelist’s Discipline makes more sense, as condi mesmers can choose torch for greater condi damage and lesser physical, or pistol+dueling+PF for better physical damage and lesser condi damage.
(edited by AlphatheWhite.9351)
To nitpick, it doesn’t depend on your gear. PF is always 20% crit chance to phantasms, so unless you’re already above 80% crit chance without Fury (no condi build does this),
it’s always the same chance: 20% per attack. Nothing about it scales with existing crit chance.
It is. But the outcome would be too unreliable wit hat least some precision. And as you already stated … less efficient than DD. 
I could see that, assuming Mistrust were ever actually fixed. Right now you get more confusion of out DE than you do out of Mistrust!
I really hope they consider adding a Confusion on crit chance for Mesmers on this one… Just put a small ICD (per target) on it so it won’t be broken with GS. Done.
You noted Mistrust, Confusing Images is 6 stacks on a low cooldown, Perplexity Runes are available for discriminating Mesmers, Ethereal fields apply confusion on combo, Magic Bullet applies confusion already, Ineptitude adds confusion to blinds, while also giving blinds to all blocks/evades (so every dodge, block and distortion can proc confusion), and confusion is one of the three conditions applied by chaos armor.
So I respectfully disagree, we actually have a lot of confusion available outside shatters. Adding in shatters themselves just ramps that up significantly.
We might have many sources but aside from Sc#3 they hardly apply enough stacks to actually kill anyone. Perplexity… I’d rather not count that one. Ethereal Fields… maybe back when traited iDuelist had a 100% finisher. Now I’d say nope. Magic Bullet… maybe if they increased the stacks. Ineptitude is quite cool. But it’s more survivability and zerg tagging than actual damage.
So yes. We do have sources. But none of them enable you to build around Confusion. Even if you combined them all, shatter will most likely still be better.
I’m still not sure why on-hit would be especially out of place in a tree that just happens to have more crit stuff. Dueling is the theme, not crit. Crit just happens to be a sub-theme they’ve chosen, but anything that improves the ability of the mesmer to duel is a candidate, and on-hit procs can easily do that.
Because it is not a sub-theme. It’s a core-theme – which they picked regardless of our definition on what Dueling is – and on hit is quite contradictory to it, really. It’s not immersion breaking but very very inconsequantial to put an on-hit trait into Dueling.
Maybe we just got different opinions on that one.
Granted, but unfortunately it’s not enough. I’ve done the math a lot, and you’d just need more from PF for iDuelist to provide enough dps to make Mesmers competitive in PvE. Or an increase in bleeds elsewhere (see your suggestion to add something to Chaos).
PvE? Then you’d should be using Focus anyway.
But yeah, I get where you’re coming from.
Mostly agreed. Though if they do end up rebalancing Phantasm and mesmer weapon damage, PF will end up sucking hardcore without Sharper Images. They’ll need to rebalance phantasm traits in general at that point, though.
We would have to see about that. Because it could go either way.
I actually find it amusing that Rangers constantly complain about a part of their damage coming from their pet while Mesmers are pretty much in the same spot. Our sustained damage is so aweful in PvE I nowadays prefer playing my Engi or Guardian although I love my main.
I’d like to reiterate that I think the best solution would be to make iMage a competitive phantasm by giving at least 2 burns for 6s or even 3 burns for 4 seconds, turning down iMage’s cooldown to 20-24s, and raising the burn stacks on The Prestige to 3.
The offender here is Stealth and the Pledge. They won’t ever buff Torch unless this isn’t balanced I’m afraid. The cooldown on iMage is out of line either way. And let’s not even start about iWarlock and other bouncy stuff. Sigh.
It is. But the outcome would be too unreliable wit hat least some precision.
I…still don’t know what that means. You’d get less bleeds total from the iDuelist with less precision, but phantasmal fury itself will always average 1.6 stacks of bleed beyond what you get otherwise.
I really hope they consider adding a Confusion on crit chance for Mesmers on this one… Just put a small ICD (per target) on it so it won’t be broken with GS. Done.
Mm, yes, perhaps. Or just change Spatial Surge. It’s not like SS isn’t causing problems elsewhere (looking at you, Lost Time).
We might have many sources but aside from Sc#3 they hardly apply enough stacks to actually kill anyone. Perplexity… I’d rather not count that one. Ethereal Fields… maybe back when traited iDuelist had a 100% finisher. Now I’d say nope. Magic Bullet… maybe if they increased the stacks. Ineptitude is quite cool. But it’s more survivability and zerg tagging than actual damage.
So yes. We do have sources. But none of them enable you to build around Confusion. Even if you combined them all, shatter will most likely still be better.
I’ll accept that, for the most part. It’s basically an interrupt-condi build, that uses Mistrust+Perplexity+Confusing Images to lay down a lot of confusion at once. It would probably still go Illusions just because confusion/torment on shatter is great, but the shatter stacks would be taking an intentional backseat. I’ve never tried it because I’m terrible at interrupts, and I don’t want to buy Runes of Perplexity :P
Because it is not a sub-theme. It’s a core-theme – which they picked regardless of our definition on what Dueling is – and on hit is quite contradictory to it, really. It’s not immersion breaking but very very inconsequantial to put an on-hit trait into Dueling.
I just don’t see why it would be contradictory. It’s just different, like interrupts. Interrupts have nothing to do with crit, so it’s contradictory! See, it just isn’t like that. They are just different procs that balance differently. That’s all.
That said,
Maybe we just got different opinions on that one.
Okay.
Granted, but unfortunately it’s not enough. I’ve done the math a lot, and you’d just need more from PF for iDuelist to provide enough dps to make Mesmers competitive in PvE. Or an increase in bleeds elsewhere (see your suggestion to add something to Chaos).
PvE? Then you’d should be using Focus anyway.
But yeah, I get where you’re coming from.
Nah, warden never gets a second volley off. It’s hard to keep wardens up (and actually hitting the target) in the best of situations, much less in situations like mobile bosses where the warden never even gets a full first volley. I can often keep iDuelists up, though, and they’ll always be able to hit the target.
I actually find it amusing that Rangers constantly complain about a part of their damage coming from their pet while Mesmers are pretty much in the same spot. Our sustained damage is so aweful in PvE I nowadays prefer playing my Engi or Guardian although I love my main.
Heh, yeah. I’m decently effective on my clone condi build, as long as we’re not trying for a meta run or anything.
The offender here is Stealth and the Pledge. They won’t ever buff Torch unless this isn’t balanced I’m afraid. The cooldown on iMage is out of line either way. And let’s not even start about iWarlock and other bouncy stuff. Sigh.
Aye. That’s honestly the biggest reason I’ve softened on changing PU (obv I already want The Pledge revamped), not because I think it’s OP, but because retooling it would allow them to not worry so much about torch.
Srs, nerf PU to pre-patch and move it down to Master, replace it with a solid defensive trait, buff Veil/MI, and who will really be unhappy? People who like Mirror of Anguish, I guess?