Guild Wars 2

I’m getting a bit concerned seeing (as far as I know) there is no viable mesmer build that “boldly” forego Dueling entirely.

So let’s bust this myth.
Is there any viable build out there that doesn’t spec into Dueling?

Please discuss.

There isn’t. It’s unfortunate too.

I’m sure people use builds without it. But likely not much that’s actually viable outside of open world pve.
Dueling is just incredibly useful for just about/every build.
Even builds that don’t need Deceptive Evasion often make great use of on-crit effects, and power builds don’t do enough raw damage to sacrifice crit dama—ferocity and precision.
Then even condition builds use on-crit bleeds for a free damage condition in almost every case.

30/0/30/10 lockdown.

StickerHappy.8052:

30/0/30/10 lockdown.

Interesting! I’m theorycrafting one atm, I suppose u grab both CS in Dom and CI in Chaos?

yea.,

Try Powerblock +CI + Chill Runes(w/ mantra heal) and Hydromancy (was better before they fixed power block.

Crutch? A crutch is something that’s used as a temporary measure until you get better.

Use of the dueling line is not a temporary measure until you get better. It is a requirement for almost any viable mesmer build.

• Phantasm builds need that line because of phantasmal fury.
• Shatter builds need the line because of deceptive evasion.
• Condition builds need the line because of sharper images.
• Power builds need the line because of crit chance and crit power
• Builds that like dodging need the line because of critical infusion
• Mantra builds need the line for mantra mastery and EM

It contains the cooldown trait for the most commonly used weapon: 1handed sword. It also contains the 1200 range manipulations trait, commonly thought of as all but necessary for effective use of blink. Lastly, it contains Triumphant Distortion and Furious interruption, because no mesmer traitline is complete without a couple unusable traits.

The Dueling line is not a crutch. It is a basic pillar of the mesmer class in almost every conceivable way.

Like Pyro say.

To call dueling line a crutch is like call the wheels of the car a crutch. There are not many car manufactures who “boldly” forgo the wheels when constructing a new car model, wonder why.

/Osicat

@Pyro, Osicat: sarcasm?

keenlam.4753:

@Pyro, Osicat: sarcasm?

No.

@Pyro: didn’t expect u got so caught up with my poor choice of word, anyway, i guess i should have made it more clear. Don’t you see this is a big issue in terms of limiting build diversity?

keenlam.4753:

@Pyro: didn’t expect u got so caught up with my poor choice of word, anyway, i guess i should have made it more clear. Don’t you see this is a big issue in terms of limiting build diversity?

Limiting build diversity? Absolutely. However, you can theorycraft from now until iLeap is fixed and it won’t fix anything. It would take significant reworks of our entire traitset to make dueling a non-mandatory line in almost all builds.

The problem lies somewhere deep in how our clones and shatters work.

The original idea – maybe back before any real implementation started – was to have our clones be there to defend us, confusing enemies. And to shatter them for a “big” effect.

Neither of these really came true. We use up clones like thieves use up initiative, or rather we’d want to. Sure, Mind Wrack can be a really nice burst and such, but considering how throwaway the clones themselves are, there’s no real tactical value behind shatter destroying it.
I feel the original idea was to have us sit there “I really want to shatter, but then meh, all clones gone. Do I shatter now or not?”.

As a result of clones being so throwaway, and shatter being either so common or entirely unused and clones unwanted, non-Phantasms specs generally do not want to go without DE, considering just how many clones it produces.

At this point I think what would be interesting to balance us long term is to flip our class balance on it’s head by making Clones (and Phantasms) stronger, by making them more perfect, by in turn reducing our defence and damage, and seriously buffing up the shatters and maybe even replacing them.

Very large underlying change ofc, but I dislike the anchorpiece DE has become.

^But if that happens people will whine… NERF AI!!!!

This is true but people will whine anyway about anything that makes them loose.

Carighan.6758:

At this point I think what would be interesting to balance us long term is to flip our class balance on it’s head by making Clones (and Phantasms) stronger, by making them more perfect, by in turn reducing our defence and damage, and seriously buffing up the shatters and maybe even replacing them.

I don’t know about that. People are pretty against AI dominant abilities from the start, and this sounds like it would only make those complaints valid. There are certain quality of life changes that need to be made, like ways to produce a good amount of clones without DE, or builds that can be used without relying entirely on clone/phantasm production. These types of things could definitely make our class more diverse, but I’m not so sure they will ever happen.

Yeah but I wouldn’t make the clones do anything. They’d appear to be doing things though, and quite well so, using utility skills, weapon skills, moving, dodging, everything. Only, none of it has any effect.

But, they would look much more perfect in appearing to be players.

Carighan.6758:

Yeah but I wouldn’t make the clones do anything. They’d appear to be doing things though, and quite well so, using utility skills, weapon skills, moving, dodging, everything. Only, none of it has any effect.

But, they would look much more perfect in appearing to be players.

That just seems really complicated to code though. You have to code every utility skill to be usable by AI, then you would have to code in prompts for when they would use it, unless they would just randomly cycle through abilities. I don’t know that just seems really complicated is all, and I’m not sure it would be better. After all you could still just see the numbers that pop up when the real mesmer hits you.

keenlam.4753:

@Pyro: didn’t expect u got so caught up with my poor choice of word, anyway, i guess i should have made it more clear. Don’t you see this is a big issue in terms of limiting build diversity?

Move the traits anywhere else and people will just shift their points in to those traits regardless. ANet stealth moved empowering mantras so in PvE we just went from 0/30/0/25/15 to 30/20/0/20/0 (or 30/20/0/0/20). If they moved deceptive evasion in to inspiration master as an example you’d just have condi builds which are like 0/20/30/20/0 (…which gives us condi cleanse on heal and phantasmal healing which would proc illusionary membrane for even higher protection uptime in PU builds).

People overrate build diversity, if you were stuck in to say, four different builds but just with the points moved around you just go back to square one with people crying that there’s no build diversity.

There are some more-or-less meta PvE builds that only put 2 in dueling these days (Brazil’s 6/2/0/4/2 for example). Still have to take the II trait for Phantasmal Fury no matter what, though.

Immediately after patch I thought of 30/10 but then the fact that you can just switch traits in dungeons means that you can honestly just switch between 20 illusions and 20 inspirations dependent on whether you want focus reflects, plus you don’t have to give up blade training that way.

Carighan.6758:

Yeah but I wouldn’t make the clones do anything. They’d appear to be doing things though, and quite well so, using utility skills, weapon skills, moving, dodging, everything. Only, none of it has any effect.

But, they would look much more perfect in appearing to be players.

This. Just so much this. Active skills, a dodge, a utility heal , cast a weapon specific skill, complete with food and buff appearances that completely mimic the caster, and they all do exactly nothing.

Sadly, mesmers can’t actually have nice things like this.

hendo.1940:

Immediately after patch I thought of 30/10 but then the fact that you can just switch traits in dungeons means that you can honestly just switch between 20 illusions and 20 inspirations dependent on whether you want focus reflects, plus you don’t have to give up blade training that way.

Yes, I much prefer this myself because I like Blade Training so much. But Brazil’s option isn’t bad either, I don’t think.

After the patch, I tried a 0/0/6/2/6 condition build based on shattering (with the new torment trait). So it didn’t seem to need sharper images for bleeds, and I tried to use mirror images, decoy, traited staff, and phantasmal disenchanter to have enough things to shatter without needing deceptive evasion. With dire armor and PU, it was pretty survivable.

It worked okay. There were times I could get more than 12 torment stacks on things, but it generally did not burst well. I could take a camp in under 60 seconds which is actually hard for me with my PU power build. In the end, it was slow and not as much fun for me.

6/0/0/5/3 for a mantra/phantasm build would work, but would not have many mantra or weapon traits and loses vigor on crit.

Toeofdoom.6152:

6/0/0/5/3 for a mantra/phantasm build would work, but would not have many mantra or weapon traits and loses vigor on crit.

No one would run this because you miss Phantsmal Fury. That’s a huge source of damage in a phantasm build.

If the op means viable as in “accepted meta pve/PvP build”, yeah, it’s not happening. If it’s just about having something that holds up reasonably well, this would work.
1. In some builds/teams you might have aoe fury going off anyway.
2. In PvP with gs/staff and restorative mantras you would have a lot of ranged damage and quite a bit of survivability.
3. In pve with melee weapons it should be within about 10% of 6/2/0/4/2.

Toeofdoom.6152:

If the op means viable as in “accepted meta pve/PvP build”, yeah, it’s not happening. If it’s just about having something that holds up reasonably well, this would work.
1. In some builds/teams you might have aoe fury going off anyway.
2. In PvP with gs/staff and restorative mantras you would have a lot of ranged damage and quite a bit of survivability.
3. In pve with melee weapons it should be within about 10% of 6/2/0/4/2.

I’m 99% certain that Phantasms don’t get fury from party buffs, just like they don’t directly get might stacks from your party. They only inherit primary stats like precision and power from you. That’s why your might stacks help your phantasm (because might buffs your power), but fury doesn’t, because fury affects crit chance directly and not precision.

maxinion.8396:

Toeofdoom.6152:

If the op means viable as in “accepted meta pve/PvP build”, yeah, it’s not happening. If it’s just about having something that holds up reasonably well, this would work.
1. In some builds/teams you might have aoe fury going off anyway.
2. In PvP with gs/staff and restorative mantras you would have a lot of ranged damage and quite a bit of survivability.
3. In pve with melee weapons it should be within about 10% of 6/2/0/4/2.

I’m 99% certain that Phantasms don’t get fury from party buffs, just like they don’t directly get might stacks from your party. They only inherit primary stats like precision and power from you. That’s why your might stacks help your phantasm (because might buffs your power), but fury doesn’t, because fury affects crit chance directly and not precision.

Phantasms could get fury from your party, but it’s unlikely. Buffs prioritize players, and so the 5 target limit will usually rule out giving phantasms fury. If they did get fury, it would work though.

Interesting, thanks pyro. The cap would explain why I thought that.

Yep pyroatheist describes it the way I thought it worked- so if you end up with a team that is less consistent when stacking, or solo with pack runes/staff clone. With some things not targetting yourself (inspiration) or going off all over the place like ele blast finishers… Well I don’t really know the resulting uptime.