Guild Wars 2

I’ve only played the thief for a few hours during my time in Guild Wars 2 (a recording session over one of the Beta weekends) and didn’t really invest enough time in the profession to form any sense of opinion on it.

What I did last night was create all my alts with one of those being a Sylvari Thief, based on the fact the Tier 2 and 3 medium cultural armour is too nice to neglect.

The most surprising thing I found was how the feeling of combat changes as a result of initiative and the removal of single skill cooldowns. Combat feels drastically different; quicker and certainly more action orientated. For that reason alone, it isn’t unsurprising to see a reasonably high proportion of thief players (though ArenaNet statistics put them level with many others).

While it could be argued that initiative displaces one cooldown for another, it’s the form of control it affords you and the ability to front-load or spread your damage that generates the nuances of the profession.

As someone heavily invested in the mesmer it was frightening to see how little damage I deal in the short term in comparison to the thief. Many mesmer players have argued for some time that we lack the farming ability of other professions due to this, that our damage is over a longer period of time; it couldn’t be more true. A single cycle on my mesmer to defeat an enemy of equal level will see me change through two weapon sets (using all skills) coupled with several Shatters and likely a return to skills that were on cooldown. In contrast, my thief is capable of despatching enemies in a heartbeat based on the unique initiative mechanic without necessarily having to change weapons.

It’s also strange to suddenly realise how little mobility your preferred profession has when you explore another and though I can appreciate the thief requires its mobility for survival (both in its use of stealth and shadow step) the mesmer and specifically those of us who have high power and precision builds, require similar principals in the form of leaps and cloak skills. The difference here however is that once again initiative shines and allows for repeated darting attacks, with use of the shortbow only strengthening this position. All this serves to highlight the sluggish nature of the mesmer and its use of Blink or Focus as a crutch, that simply isn’t a viable option to many offensive builds.

That isn’t to say that the mesmer doesn’t have it’s strengths (it is wonderful) but it’s interesting from my perspective to compare it directly to another after playing just one profession for over 500 hours. Many of the professions in Guild Wars 2 are comparable, with the thief and ranger sharing many principals of design, or the mesmer and thief overlapping in some elements such as stealth/cloak, blink/shadowstep. But where a mesmer can shine in group play with its use of Portals, Time Warp, Null Field or Chaos Storm (should you choose a staff) it can also suffer heavily in dungeons or world versus world as you struggle to keep up through a lack of mobility while having your illusions and limited melee playstyle become redundant entirely redundant during keep sieges.

The thief certainly isn’t perfect as the vulnerabilities of the profession as a result of initiative are already abundantly clear (especially the inability to scale your damage once your initiative pool is spent) or the fact that you bring little area of effect options to the table with the exception of Dagger Storm but what is clear is that the profession actually feels cohesive and well thought out for the role it is trying to fill.

If I were to choose where to categorise a mesmer, it would fall into a profession designed to support others rather than one designed to always be alone. It cannot be denied that in 1 on 1 scenarios a mesmer is formidable and is capable of dealing huge damage (should Phantasms be allowed to deal it) but the time in which it takes to deal this poses its own risks especially when you are likely in structured PvP to be quickly joined by another enemy or team member and in World versus World the game moves too quickly for it to materialise.

I’ve wondered for some time as to why mesmer players have drifted to the thief and its abundantly clear as to why they would. What a shame it is however to see so many thief players descend the profession into single skill spam when the options initiative affords is a luxury just waiting to be truly explored.

If only ArenaNet had implemented initiative for all professions and removed cooldowns completely, I think they would have then been on to something truly original.

Interesting post but I disagree with the last statement, cooldown system without resource is something truly original among the MMOs (fairly common in moba games maybe) and “iniative” system is what most of the MMOs have (they just call it mana or power)

I think the mistake was mixing the two up.

A single cycle on my mesmer to defeat an enemy of equal level will see me change through two weapon sets (using all skills) coupled with several Shatters and likely a return to skills that were on cooldown.

Dunno, I kill skales with 3 buttons in 2 seconds.

If only ArenaNet had implemented initiative for all professions and removed cooldowns completely, I think they would have then been on to something truly original.

I actually kind of agree with this. I had the same thought while playing a Thief myself.

What I’d like is for Thieves to keep their uniqueness—no weapon skill cooldowns at all and using Initiative as a resource—while other professions get lower weapon skill cooldowns and an Energy resource that recharges at a different rate than Initiative does. This lets Thieves keep one of their main draws—that they have no weapon cooldowns at all—while giving other professions just a little of that Thief magic and allowing ArenaNet to continue balancing at least somewhat around cooldowns.

Of course, then we just have Guild Wars 1’s system again, but I’m comfortable with that.

And, of course, this would never happen. But it’s nice to dream.

You know, considering that you have about ~3 attack abilities on your main weapon set, and 3 on your alt weapon set, you can pretty much spam pew pew for the first 10 seconds of any given fight. Same as a Thief. The only difference is you can’t spam the same ability more than once.

Same as a Thief. The only difference is you can’t spam the same ability more than once.

Which is precisely the problem, because most, if not all, abilities in this game are situational. Fact.

Examples: Feedback on melee enemy won’t do much. Distortion when you are not being attacked won’t do much. We can all agree these are true, yes? Moving on.

Due to lack of cooldowns, a Thief can use situational abilities, multiple times, when needed, and as many times as needed. There is rarely a time where a Thief NEEDS a weapon ability, but it is on cooldown. On a Mesmer, this is a standard state – you use an ability, and it goes on cooldown – whether you succeed or fail.

Example: Multiple Feedbacks when being fired at by ranged attacks. Multiple back-to-back Distortions when being focus fired. Etc., etc.

Also, a “fail condition” on weapon abilities does not exist on a Thief, practically speaking. For example, suppose I want to slow someone, as an Engineer. I fire my net gun. They dodge. Net fails. Net gun is now on cooldown. This is a fail condition. I cannot attempt to reapply the net gun for 10 seconds, at which point it can again fail.

Now, same scenario, but with a Thief. I throw a dagger (#4 ability). He dodges. I throw again. He dodges, but now has no endurance. I throw again…and again…and again…and again. Eventually, it WILL land as the enemy will be out of dodges and all other defensive abilities will be on cooldowns. As such, if a Thief wants you crippled, you will be crippled.

The likelihood of success is significantly higher, simply because he can hit and miss and hit again. On any other class, if you miss, the moment’s passed and by the time it’s off cooldown the parameters will likely have changed.

This class mechanic is UNIQUE in this game. No other class can use optimal weapon ability for the situation more than once until situation resolves itself.

I’m not saying the class is imbalanced or OP because of it. I’ll let people draw their own conclusions. But the mechanic is certainly a unique one.

I had a longer post typed out, but I’ll re-consolidate with the following points:

1. First, your example is horrible because you are using long-cooldown Utility abilities. Thieves also use the cooldown mechanic for Utility abilities. Despite the terribad-ness of the example, the point is fine.

2. You presume that there is 1 best solution for any given situation, and that that solution is more valuable when spammed. This is false. You cite the example of catching someone with DD’s Cripple. You describe that you can spam the ability over and over until it lands.

- First, the Thief will be out of Initiative from “brute-forcing” the Cripple.

- Second, a Mesmer has similar chasedown abilities, but they do more things than “just Cripple” (and damage in the case of DD). While a Thief can brute force DD, a Mesmer’s chasedown iLeap not only causes a Cripple, it also combos into an Immobilize (and a swap!), which is far more powerful. E.g. the raw ability is more potent than DD. As another example, Curtain/Void also provides a range cripple … it also provides Swiftness and a pull/knockdown. Cripple + Swiftness + Pull + Knockdown + Light Field. Versus a Cripple + damage. Hmm. Clearly the single use of the cooldown-based ability is more potent. That is part of the tradeoff for an initiative-based mechanic. In a damage example, iBerserker will cripple … and do significant damage. And it can be Shattered for bonus, or do other phantasm things (regen, protection, w/e your traits dictate).

- To re-cap, a good Thief will need to time their abilities just like any other class so that they do not waste Initiative. In doing so they behave more like cooldown-based classes. While they retain the option of spamming something when the moment presents itself, the individual abilities are less potent than those on cd-based classes (well, abilities that have any notable cooldown at any rate).

3. My point was that while Thieves obviously have a different playstyle because they obviously have a different resource mechanic (NO kitten?), there is no overarching advantage to either method. In terms of raw activity, proficient players of both classes should be spamming abilities non-stop. There is simply a different sequence and rhythm to the spam.

If you have to use every weapon skill on your bar and multiple shatters to kill a single mob in that amount of time, you’re doing it wrong. My mesmer chops undead in Orr apart within 4-6 seconds at max with only using one weapon set and a single shatter (Mind Wrack).

Amiron.1067:

If you have to use every weapon skill on your bar and multiple shatters to kill a single mob in that amount of time, you’re doing it wrong. My mesmer chops undead in Orr apart within 4-6 seconds at max with only using one weapon set and a single shatter (Mind Wrack).

Two words: Video Please!

Amiron.1067:

If you have to use every weapon skill on your bar and multiple shatters to kill a single mob in that amount of time, you’re doing it wrong. My mesmer chops undead in Orr apart within 4-6 seconds at max with only using one weapon set and a single shatter (Mind Wrack).

^

Hint: most Mesmers don’t use Shatters, or don’t use them well. This is the cause for a large fraction of complaints on this forum.

Sabbathius.1465:

Two words: Video Please!

Mirror Blade, iBerserker, PS, Shatter. Dead. Use a direct/burst damage build to deal direct damage. Problem solved.

EasymodeX.4062:

1. First, your example is horrible because you are using long-cooldown Utility abilities. Thieves also use the cooldown mechanic for Utility abilities. Despite the terribad-ness of the example, the point is fine.

True in a way. But just substitute Death Blossom for Blurred Frenzy. If as a Thief I don’t feel like getting hit just now, I spam Death Blossom and not get hit. I’d also spread bleeds AoE like crazy on top of huge damage, but that’s neither here nor there. As a Mesmer, I can sort of do the same with Blurred Frenzy followed by Dissipation, but that’s 7 seconds assuming I have it fully traited AND already have 3 illusions up (which will also die in the process). This Death Blossom spam is the foundation of the “immortal thief” build in PvE.

2. You presume that there is 1 best solution for any given situation, and that that solution is more valuable when spammed. This is false.

Debatable at best. Let’s take a very quick example. You are immobilized with a sword, and you Blurred Frenzy is blown, and you have no illusions up. How do you survive? There’s a number of ways – is switch weapon is off CD, you can try that, or use of of several utilities, etc. For a thief, he can just cast Death Blossom. And another after that. Then use Steal and another and another. There, he just survived without blowing any cooldowns something that would have got you killed as a Mesmer, unless you had a specific weapon/utility skills up. If they were on cooldown, you’d lose. Simple spam of a bread-and-butted DPS attack he’d be using anyway.

Which reminds me, Thief running out of initiative forcing DD cripple? Come on now. It’s 4 init per cast. How much does an average thief build has? How fast it regens passively. How he can regen it actively if traited? Do the math.

CAN a thief run out of init? Sure. Would be totally borked if he couldn’t. But considering how much bang you get for your init, how much you have and how you can regen it? Realistically, it’s not that big a deal.

3. My point was that while Thieves obviously have a different playstyle because they obviously have a different resource mechanic (NO kitten?), there is no overarching advantage to either method. In terms of raw activity, proficient players of both classes should be spamming abilities non-stop. There is simply a different sequence and rhythm to the spam.

The “rhythm to the spam” was funny, in a good way. First, not many classes in this game CAN spam to begin with. For most classes, this is simply not even an option.

And sorry, but I disagree on the importance of being essentially cooldown-free. That is, being able to choose any weapon skill at any time without worry of cooldowns, provided you have enough init. Which, properly built, you’ll never be short of. There are situations where being able to perform the same Mesmer ability just three times back to back would be a huge game-changer. To the point that no other class would have a hope in hell of beating us.

Incidentally, take a look at the sPvP forum. Look at stickies. The ONLY sticky on that forum is Thief Discussion Thread. Not Mesmer, not Warrior, not Ranger. Thief. Interesting, isn’t it? As the saying goes, where there’s smoke…

But anyway, I’m still not going to call anything OP or call for nerfs or anything. Personally I try to remind myself every day that the balance in this game is still in its infancy. As far as I’m concerned, they haven’t even started working on it yet, as there’s obvious PvE and PvP discrepancies in class capabilities. This is especially shockingly glaring when you the same personal story chain with a different class. Some classes absolutely struggle, others totally breeze through them.

Plus, it’s probably too soon to talk balance anyway, as half the traits of half the classes either don’t work, bug out or cancel eachother. Until that is fixed, what good is it talking balance in the first place.

I spam Death Blossom and not get hit. I’d also spread bleeds AoE like crazy on top of huge damage, but that’s neither here nor there. As a Mesmer, I can sort of do the same with Blurred Frenzy followed by Dissipation

Blurred Frenzy does significantly more damage than Death Blossom, and the invuln lasts longer.

Also, BF has a reasonably short cooldown at 8s with the trait. It’s pretty trivial to interleave other abilities for the cooldown.

Note that Death Blossom is not actually spammed (or else you run out of Initiative in 3 seconds). Used effectively, it has a practical ~2-3s cooldown.

You are immobilized with a sword, and you Blurred Frenzy is blown, and you have no illusions up. How do you survive? There’s a number of ways – is switch weapon is off CD, you can try that, or use of of several utilities, etc. For a thief, he can just cast Death Blossom. And another after that. Then use Steal and another and another. There, he just survived without blowing any cooldowns something that would have got you killed as a Mesmer,

1. The Thief used a 45s cooldown via Stealth with a trait for Init on steal. The Thief also blew close to a full bar and a half of Initiative. You realize that with 1 condition removal (for the bleed), the Thief has now incurred a ~10 second “I AM COMPLETELY USELESS” situation, right? Unless they blow other significant cooldowns, etc.

2. On the Mesmer scenario, you have assumed that the Mesmer already blew several cooldowns (yet somehow the Thief magically has a full bar of Initiative and a 45s cooldown for more Init, LOL). Mesmer options:

- Swap knockback (GS).
- Into the Void (no swap, Focus).
- Magic Bullet (no swap, Pisol).
- Swap Chaos Storm / Phase Retreat (staff).
- Swap Chaos Armor (staff).
- Swap Phase Retreat (staff).
- Prestige (no swap, Torch, versus targeted+non-channel abilities).
- IP Distortion (trait/spec).
- iWarden (versus projectiles).
- Feedback (Utility).
- Decoy (Utility, versus targeted+non-channel abilities).
- Blink (IWIN button)
- <insert condition removal + Dodge>
- Time Warp and kill the person
- Glamour Blind (trait/spec)
- Swap Scepter block
- Swap Scepter blind
- Sword4 block
- Mantra of Distraction Daze (Utility, versus single target)
- Portal (prepared event, Utility)

I’m sure there’s another option or two I don’t recall at the moment (oh, SigDom / Utility, IP Diversion, Confusion stack to blow up your attacker, Moa), but suffice to say that the Mesmer has a good range of options on weaponsets alone, nevermind utility options, to deal with being Immobilized. Also, not positive Death Blossom is usable while Immobilized, but we’ll go with it anyways.

It’s 4 init per cast. How much does an average thief build has? How fast it regens passively. How he can regen it actively if traited? Do the math.

5 times. And you blew 4 of them. They get what, 1 Heartseeker?

How much Init traiting are you talking about? Does the Thief have any DPS traiting after the Init traiting you propose?

There are situations where being able to perform the same Mesmer ability just three times back to back would be a huge game-changer.

Duh, Mesmer abilities are typically more potent. Compare Mirror Blade to Heartseeker. Mirror Blade does more damage, provides better buffs, and provides better conditions all in 1 button.

If I could spam that even twice in a row, I would eradicate every enemy on the map all the time every time.

Incidentally, take a look at the sPvP forum. Look at stickies. The ONLY sticky on that forum is Thief Discussion Thread. Not Mesmer, not Warrior, not Ranger. Thief. Interesting, isn’t it? As the saying goes, where there’s smoke…

You really want to talk about sPvP? Do you realize that Mesmers are tied with Thieves for the #1 most complained-about/OP individual class in sPvP, with Guardians bringing up 3rd place for team support+bunker? And that at higher rankings, Mesmers displace Thieves?

sPvP is a really, really bad example for making any hint of a case against the power of Mesmers.

Thought provoking and well-written, a nice change for a forum post for sure!

Though I did see this (teehee):

But where a mesmer can shine in group play with its use of Portals, Time Warp, Null Field or Chaos Storm (should you choose a staff) it can also suffer heavily in dungeons or world versus world as you struggle to keep up through a lack of mobility while having your illusions and limited melee playstyle become redundant entirely redundant during keep sieges.

While a Thief can brute force DD, a Mesmer’s chasedown iLeap not only causes a Cripple, it also combos into an Immobilize (and a swap!), which is far more powerful. E.g. the raw ability is more potent than DD.

Granted iLeap has it’s uses (immobilize for burst), but you’re grasping for straws again (like you always do). DD crits for 4k, hits multiple targets, has 900 range and can cripple people outside this range through bounce. iLeap is useless as a chase skill, because you need to be right behind the opponent. In any other scenario you can’t use it to chase.