Guild Wars 2

Why is F2 still over double the cooldown of F1 when the only effective difference is much less damage in exchange for one confusion stack per illusion shattered?

Even if traited up, in power builds F2 is boon strip setup or supplementary burst damage, whereas F1 delivers all the pain on half the cooldown. In condition the only difference is the extra confusion stack.

Traited with Condition removal/healing, vulnerability, blinds, torment, might, and stability (+3x might or vigour) there’s not much difference (apart from bountiful disillusionment).

And then you’ve got Mental Anguish which significantly boosts F1 but doesn’t do much to F2.

I’m just confused what makes F2 deserving of double the cooldown of F1?

In light of the MtD nerf, perhaps F2 could have one torment stack as standard – which would fit with the theme, give a dedicated “burst” shatter for condition builds while not allowing them to be “overpowered” by being able to burst on all shatters, and make F2 worth the much longer cooldown.

Either that or half the cooldown of F2.

Now that they’re aware of this, they’ll do the logical thing…increase the CD of MW to that of CoF!

F2’s only right to exist is the moment when F1 and Signet of Illusions are on cooldown.

It is called “Cry of Frustration” for a reason: Because it sucks compared to Mind Wrack and every mesmer using it is frustrated because he/she would prefer to use F1!

Zintrothen.1056:

Now that they’re aware of this, they’ll do the logical thing…increase the CD of MW to that of CoF!

lol, oh god I hope not! xD

It is especially weird as it damages condition vs damage while condition are already weak.
So they could make it a lower cool down but they would probably increase F1 instead (like putting both at 18s untraited) because with all the traits, any shatter is fairly powerful regardless of its base effect.
Or as you suggest increasing F2 efficiency so that it becomes a real condition burst. I like the idea!

Zintrothen.1056:

Now that they’re aware of this, they’ll do the logical thing…increase the CD of MW to that of CoF!

Na, this is not necessary.

I think the most urgent priority for Anet to fix Mesmer is disable/nerf PU, and add an ICD for reflect on manipulation (10 sec) reflect on dodge (10 sec), and shatter blind (5 sec)

It is quite insane a class can has this many on demand reflect by doing literally nothing.. This basically tell you that if you’re not Mesmer, go kitten yourself because you’d never kill them in WvW.

Aomine.5012:

Zintrothen.1056:

Now that they’re aware of this, they’ll do the logical thing…increase the CD of MW to that of CoF!

Na, this is not necessary.

I think the most urgent priority for Anet to fix Mesmer is disable/nerf PU, and add an ICD for reflect on manipulation (10 sec) reflect on dodge (10 sec), and shatter blind (5 sec)

It is quite insane a class can has this many on demand reflect by doing literally nothing.. This basically tell you that if you’re not Mesmer, go kitten yourself because you’d never kill them in WvW.

Went to edge of the mist today with my mesmer I am leveling. Got killed.

Your point?

Aomine.5012:

Zintrothen.1056:

Now that they’re aware of this, they’ll do the logical thing…increase the CD of MW to that of CoF!

Na, this is not necessary.

I think the most urgent priority for Anet to fix Mesmer is disable/nerf PU, and add an ICD for reflect on manipulation (10 sec) reflect on dodge (10 sec), and shatter blind (5 sec)

It is quite insane a class can has this many on demand reflect by doing literally nothing.. This basically tell you that if you’re not Mesmer, go kitten yourself because you’d never kill them in WvW.

ICD on Reflect on Manipulation, Lol?
ICD on reflect on dodge, Lol?
ICD on shatter blind, lol?
disable PU, lol?

You want us to be thief/ranger food right?
Shatter blind is bugged because it triggers on dodge, once it fix, it will be fine,
PU needs shaving to 75% not disabling, especially not with others competitig GM traits that can make it easily overlooked, it’s really not necessary unless in a Sharing boon build, simply because adding swiftness and might counter the defensive boons by reducing the amount of times they actually are granted, given that any of the retal/protect is already finished when you get visible again…
More stealth uptime means nothing… We still have the same number of traits giving stealth, for a higher duration no one will even use completely
We’re just more annoying, it’s nothing to fret about, stealth shatter burst would still exist even without PU

Reflect on manipulation isn’t that great to begin with, except with decoy or blink, but the CD is so high anyway…

Reflect on dodge… with the nerf to vigor and the low sustain of mesmer, they can’t waste dodge as it is, I barely glance at the skill because there are others much more viable trait to take in the line

Aomine.5012:

I think the most urgent priority for Anet to fix Mesmer is disable/nerf PU, and add an ICD for reflect on manipulation (10 sec) reflect on dodge (10 sec), and shatter blind (5 sec)

Aw how cute. Someone died to a mesmer. It’s been so long I forgot what the nerf cries even looked like. :P

Pepsi.8907:

Aomine.5012:

Zintrothen.1056:

Now that they’re aware of this, they’ll do the logical thing…increase the CD of MW to that of CoF!

Na, this is not necessary.

I think the most urgent priority for Anet to fix Mesmer is disable/nerf PU, and add an ICD for reflect on manipulation (10 sec) reflect on dodge (10 sec), and shatter blind (5 sec)

It is quite insane a class can has this many on demand reflect by doing literally nothing.. This basically tell you that if you’re not Mesmer, go kitten yourself because you’d never kill them in WvW.

ICD on Reflect on Manipulation, Lol?
ICD on reflect on dodge, Lol?
ICD on shatter blind, lol?
disable PU, lol?

You want us to be thief/ranger food right?
Shatter blind is bugged because it triggers on dodge, once it fix, it will be fine,
PU needs shaving to 75% not disabling, especially not with others competitig GM traits that can make it easily overlooked, it’s really not necessary unless in a Sharing boon build, simply because adding swiftness and might counter the defensive boons by reducing the amount of times they actually are granted, given that any of the retal/protect is already finished when you get visible again…
More stealth uptime means nothing… We still have the same number of traits giving stealth, for a higher duration no one will even use completely
We’re just more annoying, it’s nothing to fret about, stealth shatter burst would still exist even without PU

Reflect on manipulation isn’t that great to begin with, except with decoy or blink, but the CD is so high anyway…

Reflect on dodge… with the nerf to vigor and the low sustain of mesmer, they can’t waste dodge as it is, I barely glance at the skill because there are others much more viable trait to take in the line

Basically all Mesmer does now is -> stealth -> come out and burst > dodge for reflect -> stealth -> come out and burst -> dodge for reflect -> stealth. What do you mean no endurance? All you need to do is stealth for another 6~10 secs until your endurance is back for your next dodge on reflect.

Reflect shouldn’t come this cheap since it totally obliterated many classes’ mechanic completely. If reflection is this cheap and spammable, I think classes like Necro, Ranger and Engineer should have access to mechanic that grants reflection penetration. This is only fair. Currently only Mesmer is able to do reliable range damage because of their new cheap mechanic.

You can LOL all you want but currently when I see someone roaming, it would not be thief, but rather Mesmer majority of the time because those traits are so abusive and cheap and so easy and braindead to use in WvW.

Seriously I do not care a single bit about some of you denial Mesmer who doesn’t recognize how abusive and cheap your Mesmer has become, but I will try my very best to let the developers to come to his mind and make reasonable changes, for whatever it takes. My goal is to communicate with the developers, not you guys. Your biased opinion is not important at all.

Evasive Mirror requires a successful dodge to grant reflection and Shatter has always had reliable single target ranged damage, but nice meltdown anyway.

I think the discussion drifted no?
The funny part is they removed the clone death because it was too cheesy and instead tried to favor a more active shatter play style. But then they add a double layer of cheesiness with excessive PU…

Aomine.5012:

Pepsi.8907:

Aomine.5012:

Zintrothen.1056:

Now that they’re aware of this, they’ll do the logical thing…increase the CD of MW to that of CoF!

Na, this is not necessary.

I think the most urgent priority for Anet to fix Mesmer is disable/nerf PU, and add an ICD for reflect on manipulation (10 sec) reflect on dodge (10 sec), and shatter blind (5 sec)

It is quite insane a class can has this many on demand reflect by doing literally nothing.. This basically tell you that if you’re not Mesmer, go kitten yourself because you’d never kill them in WvW.

ICD on Reflect on Manipulation, Lol?
ICD on reflect on dodge, Lol?
ICD on shatter blind, lol?
disable PU, lol?

You want us to be thief/ranger food right?
Shatter blind is bugged because it triggers on dodge, once it fix, it will be fine,
PU needs shaving to 75% not disabling, especially not with others competitig GM traits that can make it easily overlooked, it’s really not necessary unless in a Sharing boon build, simply because adding swiftness and might counter the defensive boons by reducing the amount of times they actually are granted, given that any of the retal/protect is already finished when you get visible again…
More stealth uptime means nothing… We still have the same number of traits giving stealth, for a higher duration no one will even use completely
We’re just more annoying, it’s nothing to fret about, stealth shatter burst would still exist even without PU

Reflect on manipulation isn’t that great to begin with, except with decoy or blink, but the CD is so high anyway…

Reflect on dodge… with the nerf to vigor and the low sustain of mesmer, they can’t waste dodge as it is, I barely glance at the skill because there are others much more viable trait to take in the line

Basically all Mesmer does now is -> stealth -> come out and burst > dodge for reflect -> stealth -> come out and burst -> dodge for reflect -> stealth. What do you mean no endurance? All you need to do is stealth for another 6~10 secs until your endurance is back for your next dodge on reflect.

Reflect shouldn’t come this cheap since it totally obliterated many classes’ mechanic completely. If reflection is this cheap and spammable, I think classes like Necro, Ranger and Engineer should have access to mechanic that grants reflection penetration. This is only fair. Currently only Mesmer is able to do reliable range damage because of their new cheap mechanic.

You can LOL all you want but currently when I see someone roaming, it would not be thief, but rather Mesmer majority of the time because those traits are so abusive and cheap and so easy and braindead to use in WvW.

Seriously I do not care a single bit about some of you denial Mesmer who doesn’t recognize how abusive and cheap your Mesmer has become, but I will try my very best to let the developers to come to his mind and make reasonable changes, for whatever it takes. My goal is to communicate with the developers, not you guys. Your biased opinion is not important at all.

No, no, we’re not saying certain nerfs aren’t necessary. We’re just saying that many of the nerfs you’ve mentioned are bad and unnecessary nerfs to the wrong things or at least in the wrong ways which will essentially destroy traits rather than weaken them.

Aomine.5012:

Your biased opinion is not important at all.

;)

Anyway, can we get this back on topic please – I’d like to discuss more about why F2 is on a much higher cooldown than F1 and changes that would make sense – such as buffing F2 to make it worth the longer cooldown or reducing its cooldown.

F2 cooldown is probably a relic of the days when confusion builds were a thing. Even so it is still a very important shatter skill, not just for boon ripping like it was pre 23rd June. Now it is a way to apply blind from blinding dissipation without having to blow mind wrack, diversion or distortion. I use it for reaction blind stomps now when I would have had to do an interrupt or invuln stomp. That in itself is huge.

I agree that its CD should be reduced or its effect should be buffed in some way to make it twice as impactful as Mind Wrack to warrant a 2x CD.

Besetment.9187:

F2 cooldown is probably a relic of the days when confusion builds were a thing. Even so it is still a very important shatter skill, not just for boon ripping like it was pre 23rd June. Now it is a way to apply blind from blinding dissipation without having to blow mind wrack, diversion or distortion. I use it for reaction blind stomps now when I would have had to do an interrupt or invuln stomp. That in itself is huge.

Yes but you can also do all of that with F1 or F3.

If anything, it’s even more apparent that outside of condition builds, F2 is almost always used to apply traited effects – very rarely for its standard affect which is rather pathetic damage in power builds. That should be raising alarm bells, whereas F1, F3 and F4 have much more useful standard effects outside of condition builds.

F2 is a “backup shatter”, used to proc traits for the most part.

Condition shatter currently homogenises F1 and F2 into roughly the same thing (just a few confusion stacks difference), so it makes little sense for one to have double the cooldown of the other.

Things i use F2 for:
- Stripping boons (traited)
- Cleansing conditions (traited)
- Removing Blinds
- Damage when i know i don’t need F1 (rarely)
- Getting rid of illusions after a duel
- Very, very rarely stack confusion on an ele (which does basically no damage with my only condi damage coming from Treveler runes)

I can see it being used for the cripple when traiting Master of Fragmentation, but aside from that it doesn’t have much use.

Iavra.8510:

Things i use F2 for:
- Stripping boons (traited)
- Cleansing conditions (traited)
- Removing Blinds
- Damage when i know i don’t need F1 (rarely)
- Getting rid of illusions after a duel
- Very, very rarely stack confusion on an ele (which does basically no damage with my only condi damage coming from Treveler runes)

I can see it being used for the cripple when traiting Master of Fragmentation, but aside from that it doesn’t have much use.

Yep – traited, traited, using it for auxilliary functions instead of it’s standard function.

In power, the only reasons I’ve had for using F2 for its standard function (ie, tiny direct damage and one confusion stack) is finishing off <10% of a health bar say after unloading an F1 burst, or supplemening an F1 burst.

Otherwise most of the time it’s been for proccing traits or as you said things like clearing blind.

And then in condition, F1 and F2 “burst” (I use that term loosely because since MtD nerf there is no big “burst”) are largely interchangeable.

F2 still feels like an afterthought shatter, with no defining purpose – and yet is on twice the cooldown of F1.

Just to clarify this comment a bit.

Iavra.8510:

Things i use F2 for:
- Stripping boons (traited) Same as F1
- Cleansing conditions (traited) Same as F1
- Removing Blinds Only because it’s useless for anything else
- Damage when i know i don’t need F1 (rarely) Only because it’s worse than F1
- Getting rid of illusions after a duel lol
- Very, very rarely stack confusion on an ele (which does basically no damage with my only condi damage coming from Treveler runes) More or less useless in a non-condition build

I can see it being used for the cripple when traiting Master of Fragmentation, but aside from that it doesn’t have much use.

I propose:

- Add 1 stack of torment for 4 seconds per illusion shattered as standard for F2.
- Lower the base cooldown of F2 to 18 seconds (~15 traited with Illusions).

This will go halfway of also remedying the MtD nerf by giving condition shatter a dedicated burst shatter to use, just like F1 is used in power.

On topic:

I agree that there should something be done with CoF (the shatter-skill; not the dungeon). The cooldown doesn’t feel right for what it does in its current form.

Off topic:

Pepsi.8907:

Shatter blind is bugged because it triggers on dodge, once it fix, it will be fine,

Are you sure you’re not mistaking Ineptitude for a bug?

Pepsi.8907:

Reflect on manipulation isn’t that great to begin with, except with decoy or blink, but the CD is so high anyway…

Decoy actually isn’t a manipulation, and thus doesn’t trigger any reflects.

I don’t mind F2 being “useless” for direct damage builds outside of its traited abilities. I mind that F2 is hardly better than F1 even in condi builds! We get 2 stacks of confusion from traits on all shatters, so F1 is still more used for condi builds than F2 (lower CD and hardly less damage if any).

@Saturn
I guess he meant that currently the blind is unblockable. So even if you dodge the shatter, you will get blind/confusion.

Silverkey.2078:

I don’t mind F2 being “useless” for direct damage builds outside of its traited abilities. I mind that F2 is hardly better than F1 even in condi builds! We get 2 stacks of confusion from traits on all shatters, so F1 is still more used for condi builds than F2 (lower CD and hardly less damage if any).

I agree – it would make sense for F2 being made the primary condi shatter burst button – which is why following the MtD nerf it would make sense to give F2 one stack of torment per illusion standard as well as lowering the cooldown to around 15 seconds fully traited.

It would have negligable effect on power builds, be decent for hybrid power/condi builds, and be great for condi shatter.

This would give it some identity and also provide condition shatter with its much needed burst, without making it “overpowered” as with mtd 2 stacks of torment (if the devs see it that way).

That is the absolute best suggestion on the MtD nerf i believe. They didn’t want us to have 2 stacks/shatter because using weapon clone generation, F1, mirror image dodge, F2 was a very fast burst of 16 torment + 20 confusion which is fairly strong (obviously very theoretical but still). But if we get only 8 torment on F2 but 4 on all other shatters, it is most reasonable while still allowing torment burst “to be a thing”.

I can sign on with this idea. In a “perfect” world, you’d actually want MW/CoF to have the same C/D. After all, one of the two is going to be pretty much tickle-bait in its “opposite” build. Hell, if it were up to me … Mesmer’d have selectable F1/F2 shatters.
Create another power option (to replace CoF), and another condi one (in lieu of MW).

But, that’s just my 2 coppers.

2 stacks of confusion instead of 1 as a base?

Well you can already stack massive confusion with shatters. It just feels like torment is almost non-existing in the game right now. We have only 2 skills for torment (scepter 1 and 2) and then you can trait to add some torments in shatters. This is not much considering that we should be the best profession to apply it!

Shortly before release, Jon Peters asked the mesmer community on these very forums for suggestions to Cry of Frustration since he admitted the shatter was missing something and was weak.

Nothing happened ever since.

I believe 1 torment + 1 confusion per illusion makes sense for F2 – it is meant to “Frustrate” your enemy so torment and confusion are perfect conditions.

Then thinking about the cripple which is available with Master of Fragmentation, it could be an interesting condition combo and make F2 stand on its own merits.

So yeah, I’m going to push for 1 stack of torment for 4-6seconds per illusion on F2, and a cooldown reduction – possibly making F1 and F2 have equal or similar cooldowns, something between 12 to 18 seconds base and 10 to 15 seconds traited.

Well I don’t think we will get CoF buffed + shorter cool down. And in general, I don’t think we will have shorter cooldown, because of traits, any shatter is powerful and they won’t increase the overall number of shatters that can be done in a specific time. As I said, if they reduce CoF’s cool down, they will increase MW correspondingly and I don’t think the community wants that.

Saturn.6591:

On topic:

I agree that there should something be done with CoF (the shatter-skill; not the dungeon). The cooldown doesn’t feel right for what it does in its current form.

Off topic:

Pepsi.8907:

Shatter blind is bugged because it triggers on dodge, once it fix, it will be fine,

Are you sure you’re not mistaking Ineptitude for a bug?

Yes I’m sure, Blinding Dissipation is currently bugged and go through evade

Pepsi.8907:

Reflect on manipulation isn’t that great to begin with, except with decoy or blink, but the CD is so high anyway…

Decoy actually isn’t a manipulation, and thus doesn’t trigger any reflects.

oopsie, my bad… Thank you for the correctiom

Pepsi.8907:

Yes I’m sure, Blinding Dissipation is currently bugged and go through evade

Okay.

Pepsi.8907:

oopsie, my bad… Thank you for the correctiom

You’re welcome.