Guild Wars 2

Perhaps this has been established already, and I simply overlooked or misunderstood it, but:
As a mesmer who has unlocked the chronomancer elite specialization, will I be able to use a shield and the new F5 shatter even when I do not have the chronomancer specialization active?
In other words, once unlocked, will shields and F5 be baseline, or will they be unique to Mesmers spec’ed as chronomancers?

No, you must use the chrono line to take wells, use the shield, and have an f5 shatter.

Keep in mind that we dont have use shield to use everythink others.
Picking Chrono traits line give you:
-new weapon to chose
-new skill
-propably block few other gamebraking skills (moa/Sign of illusions)

But yea as Chrono you can run pistol/staff and stun/daze all day long(both have CD refresh on skills, dont mention we have f5 x)

No, it will not be baseline. To have access to shields, wells, and Continuum Split, you need to be in the chronomancer specialization trait line.

Well that’s a terrible system. I’m completely un-enthused by elite specs now. It’s a bad idea.
Chronomancer will have MORE then baseline mesmer. They will be, in essence, Mesmer+
That’s a mistake. Baseline mesmer was supposed to be it’s own independent but equal entity, relative to the chronomancer spec.
The same can be said for all elite specs for all classes.
But now, they won’t be. Chronomancer will, objectively, no arguments to be had, have more then baseline mesmer. But baseline mesmer, in turn, will have nothing over chronomancers.
I would have expect for there to be trade offs. Continuem Split should have been f4, replacing distortion when spec’ed as chronomancer. Wells should have replaced one of the utility types when spec’ed as chrono. The chrono trait line should have replaced one of the other trait line. And the new weapon should have either been baseline, or replaced one of the current weapons.
You should have had the option to either be “mesmer spec” with its own unique benefits. Or “chrono spec” with its own unique benefits. But that will no longer be the case. You can spec as either one, but mesmer will be mesmer, while chrono will be mesmer+ extra.
Alternatively, everything should have been made baseline, with chrono simply being a new alternative trait line to spec into.

Does that mean baseline specs will be irrelevant, or nonviable? of course not. But it does mean they are going to be “second class citizens”.

And this will continue to be a problem as they expand the system and add new elite specs. Each new elite spec will have something unique, spec defining, and exclusively available to it. Which is honestly great, I think that part is a good system. Until you consider the baseline spec, which outright receive less then the apparently aptly named “elite” specs.
Truly, they will be “elite”. Better then the baseline. And that is a mistake.

Arewn.2368:

Well that’s a terrible system. I’m completely un-enthused by elite specs now. It’s a bad idea.
Chronomancer will have MORE then baseline mesmer. They will be, in essence, Mesmer+
That’s a mistake. Baseline mesmer was supposed to be it’s own independent but equal entity, relative to the chronomancer spec.
The same can be said for all elite specs for all classes.
But now, they won’t be. Chronomancer will, objectively, no arguments to be had, have more then baseline mesmer. But baseline mesmer, in turn, will have nothing over chronomancers.
I would have expect for there to be trade offs. Continuem Split should have been f4, replacing distortion when spec’ed as chronomancer. Wells should have replaced one of the utility types when spec’ed as chrono. The chrono trait line should have replaced one of the other trait line. And the new weapon should have either been baseline, or replaced one of the current weapons.
You should have had the option to either be “mesmer spec” with its own unique benefits. Or “chrono spec” with its own unique benefits. But that will no longer be the case. You can spec as either one, but mesmer will be mesmer, while chrono will be mesmer+ extra.
Alternatively, everything should have been made baseline, with chrono simply being a new alternative trait line to spec into.

Does that mean baseline specs will be irrelevant, or nonviable? of course not. But it does mean they are going to be “second class citizens”.

And this will continue to be a problem as they expand the system and add new elite specs. Each new elite spec will have something unique, spec defining, and exclusively available to it. Which is honestly great, I think that part is a good system. Until you consider the baseline spec, which outright receive less then the apparently aptly named “elite” specs.
Truly, they will be “elite”. Better then the baseline. And that is a mistake.

Right, well the problem with this is that literally every sentence you just wrote is completely and totally wrong. Allow me to quote myself to explain.

Fay.2357:

Let’s start with interrupt builds. Standard interrupt will probably be domination, dueling, and chaos. Chaos gives the strong CI/BI effects, along with good staff boosts. Dueling has the incredible pistol trait, along with standard DE for clone generation and other utility stuff. Domination has the amazing reworked CS, along with the power block + upgraded halting strike trait. This a really well-working, strong build. Now, to take chrono, you’d have to sacrifice some of that. You could…but it would be a significant sacrifice. From what we know of chrono, some stuff is comparable to stuff from other traitlines. This makes that sacrifice a viable option, but absolutely not the single best one.

Alright, now lets do power shatter builds. Power shatter is domination, dueling, and illusions. You’d have to sacrifice one for chrono. Domination has incredible damgae amp. Dueling has DE. Illusions has the powerful shatter cooldowns + shatter boosting traits. Chrono might be worth dropping one of those for…but it’ll be a big sacrifice. One that some people might take, but is definitely not the single best choice.

Now lets look at condie shatter. Condie shatter is generally going to be dueling, chaos, and illusions. This is a really strong set, with dueling providing conditions on crit plus DE, chaos giving staff traits and PU, and illusions providing Maim. One of these must be sacrificed for chrono. Again, maybe you could sacrifice chaos, maybe dueling…but it’s a hard choice. One that some people might take, but definitely not the single best choice.

I could do this for phantasm builds, mantra builds, literally any standard build archetype….I could do this same analysis for.

Conclusion
Chrono is an interesting specialization, has some strong utilities, useful traits…and is absolutely not going to be the only option.

Fay.2357:

[/snip]Allow me to quote myself to explain.

Fay.2357:

[/snip]

Conclusion
Chrono is an interesting specialization, has some strong utilities, useful traits…and is absolutely not going to be the only option.

So much yes! I totally agree with you from what we know at the moment.

We don’t know though if the chonomancy traitline isn’t totally overpowered and replaces a traitline in every build we have.

Plus do we know that the Chrono gets the well skills in addition to, or instead of one of our current skill groups? Loosing access to glamours for example would be a huge potential cost.

Fay.2357:

-snip-

Right, and the problem with this is that I already read your post in another thread. And because I already read your post in another thread, I wrote something in my post with the very specific purpose of addressing what you wrote.
Since you didn’t seem to read my post though, let me outline the part I’m referring to:
“Does that mean baseline specs will be irrelevant, or nonviable? of course not. But it does mean they are going to be “second class citizens”.”

You have done absolutely nothing to address any of my points with your post.
My problem is that elite specs will have objectively more then their baseline.
Baseline will be just that, baseline. While elite specs will be baseline+1.

Does that mean you’ll be unable to create strong builds, perhaps even the “best” builds, using the baseline only? of course not, don’t be daft. It does however mean that the baseline will be lesser. They’ll have less variety, less tools available to them, and in some cases weaker as a result. You have only to gain by switching to the elite spec.

Now if “literally every sentence I just wrote is completely and totally wrong” then please, I’m honestly asking you, tell me what I’m wrong about. I started this thread with the explicit intent of gaining information.
So tell me, where are the trade offs? What do you lose from mesmer when you spec into chronomancer?
Because currently, I don’t see anything being lost. Only gained.
And picking a trait line isn’t a chronomancer trade off. It’s a normal trade off. No matter how you spec, you are ALWAYS making trade offs between the trait lines you pick. This is not an example of an elite spec trade off.

People are forgetting that these are the first set of elites, and the idea is very specifically that they specialize your class ‘further’ (seemingly support in the case of Chronomancer), and with their additions are considered entirely new classes.

Future elite specializations are mutually exclusive, so while the first elite may seem powerful to the base, I -believe- the long term goal is to make each specialization unique and powerful in the way that they specialize where as if you go full-base you will be more “well rounded” around the core base-class. which always feels underwhelming compared to any deep specialization.

Expect in the future most builds will be 2 base spec + 1 elite. In the mean time, there will still likely be scenarios where the 1 added ability and new traits are not as useful as just going full-base specializations if the elite doesn’t lend a hand well to what their goals are for their build.

ronpierce.2760:

People are forgetting that these are the first set of elites, and the idea is very specifically that they specialize your class ‘further’ (seemingly support in the case of Chronomancer), and with their additions are considered entirely new classes.

Future elite specializations are mutually exclusive, so while the first elite may seem powerful to the base, I -believe- the long term goal is to make each specialization unique and powerful in the way that they specialize where as if you go full-base you will be more “well rounded” around the core base-class. which always feels underwhelming compared to any deep specialization.

Expect in the future most builds will be 2 base spec + 1 elite. In the mean time, there will still likely be scenarios where the 1 added ability and new traits are not as useful as just going full-base specializations if the elite doesn’t lend a hand well to what their goals are for their build.

I think that’s a great part of the system. It’s one that can be easily expanded upon in interesting and fulfilling ways.
Each new elite spec will be mutually exclusive from the others, making each of them distinct and having unique benefits over the others.
My problem is that they are doing precisely NOT this with the base specs. There’s nothing unique or mutually exclusive about being just-a-mesmer. Which in turn makes being just-a-mesmer (or just-a-insertbaseclasshere) lesser compared to the elite specs. Like I’ve been careful to say, that obviously doesn’t mean base specs are out-and-out weaker or unviable. It does however mean they are lacking compared to elite specs.

Arewn.2368:

Right, and the problem with this is that I already read your post in another thread. And because I already read your post in another thread, I wrote something in my post with the very specific purpose of addressing what you wrote.

So the problem is that what you wrote is, how do I put this…wrong.

Arewn.2368:

“Does that mean baseline specs will be irrelevant, or nonviable? of course not. But it does mean they are going to be “second class citizens”.”

This is simply incorrect, again.

Arewn.2368:

You have done absolutely nothing to address any of my points with your post.
My problem is that elite specs will have objectively more then their baseline.
Baseline will be just that, baseline. While elite specs will be baseline+1.

Objectively more? You’re obviously missing the meaning of objective. Will they have wells, shield, and f5? Yes. Will they have a full line of trait choices that are potentially incredibly strong? No. There’s no possible way to pull an ‘objectively more’ or ‘objectively less’ out of that.

Arewn.2368:

You have only to gain by switching to the elite spec.

Again, this is so hilariously wrong. ‘You have only to gain’? No, you’re losing an entire line of traits. That’s ENORMOUS.

Arewn.2368:

So tell me, where are the trade offs? What do you lose from mesmer when you spec into chronomancer?

I’m feeling like a broken record here…but.

You lose an entire line of traits. This is an enormous sacrifice. You gain different traits that do different things. The gain is balanced by a loss.

Arewn.2368:

And picking a trait line isn’t a chronomancer trade off. It’s a normal trade off. No matter how you spec, you are ALWAYS making trade offs between the trait lines you pick. This is not an example of an elite spec trade off.

This is the point. The chronomancer line gives you an F5….but it doesn’t give you torment on your shatters. The chronomancer line gives you a shield…but it doesn’t give you enormous cooldown potential on staff skills. The chronomancer line gives you wells…but it doesn’t allow you to drastically lower cooldowns of utilities while providing huge amounts of reflections at the same time.

Taking the chronomancer line both gives and removes. That is how it works.

Arewn.2368:

Fay.2357:

-snip-

Right, and the problem with this is that I already read your post in another thread. And because I already read your post in another thread, I wrote something in my post with the very specific purpose of addressing what you wrote.
Since you didn’t seem to read my post though, let me outline the part I’m referring to:
“Does that mean baseline specs will be irrelevant, or nonviable? of course not. But it does mean they are going to be “second class citizens”.”

You have done absolutely nothing to address any of my points with your post.
My problem is that elite specs will have objectively more then their baseline.
Baseline will be just that, baseline. While elite specs will be baseline+1.

Does that mean you’ll be unable to create strong builds, perhaps even the “best” builds, using the baseline only? of course not, don’t be daft. It does however mean that the baseline will be lesser. They’ll have less variety, less tools available to them, and in some cases weaker as a result. You have only to gain by switching to the elite spec.

Now if “literally every sentence I just wrote is completely and totally wrong” then please, I’m honestly asking you, tell me what I’m wrong about. I started this thread with the explicit intent of gaining information.
So tell me, where are the trade offs? What do you lose from mesmer when you spec into chronomancer?
Because currently, I don’t see anything being lost. Only gained.
And picking a trait line isn’t a chronomancer trade off. It’s a normal trade off. No matter how you spec, you are ALWAYS making trade offs between the trait lines you pick. This is not an example of an elite spec trade off.

Burden of proof.

Please demonstrate how the cronomancy line will create a stronger build of any archtype that would have otherwise stuck to it’s three core traitlines? Examples should iinclude power shatter, condi shatter, Lockdown, Interrupt, condi interrupt, Mantra, support, phantasm, phantrupt.

Please show one example for each of these cases. You’ve made the claim, you shoulder the burden.

Fay.2357:

snip

You’re so wrong. So hilariously wrong. You are just simply, and yet eloquently, wrong. WHY are you wrong? Oh don’t be silly, you just ARE dear!

I’m not trying to take sides here.. but if your primary argument against something is “You’re just wrong!” you’re not going to get anywhere. Also, the fact that Chronomancer loses a trait line, to gain a trait line isn’t what they’re complaining about at all. They seem fine with Chronomancer switching a trait line out + getting a weapon.

Their primary concern is Chronomancer getting the new f5 shatter exclusively to themselves. Since there doesn’t seem to be a trade off for that particular specialization’s gain.

Iretha.7625:

Fay.2357:

snip

You’re so wrong. So hilariously wrong. You are just simply, and yet eloquently, wrong. WHY are you wrong? Oh don’t be silly, you just ARE dear!

I’m not trying to take sides here.. but if your primary argument against something is “You’re just wrong!” you’re not going to get anywhere. Also, the fact that Chronomancer loses a trait line, to gain a trait line isn’t what they’re complaining about at all. They seem fine with Chronomancer switching a trait line out + getting a weapon.

Try reading the rest of the post, I put plenty of arguments as to why those statements are wrong. I’m simply stating they’re wrong because they’re literally saying an untrue fact that I just showed was untrue.

Iretha.7625:

Their primary concern is Chronomancer getting the new f5 shatter exclusively to themselves. Since there doesn’t seem to be a trade off for that particular specialization’s gain.

Again…(and now I’m really sounding like a broken record). The trade off is NOT GETTING OTHER THINGS.

If you get the F5 skill, you sacrifice something. What that something is depends on the build. Maybe it’s CI/BI. Maybe it’s power block and CS. Maybe staff cooldowns and PU, or DE and reflects. Something major is being sacrificed. If something major wasn’t also being gained…nobody would use chronomancer at all.

I’ve explicitly shown how many existing builds are potentially stronger without taking chronomancy. If that isn’t the most obvious proof of my statements…I’m not sure what could be.

Fay.2357:

Again…(and now I’m really sounding like a broken record). The trade off is NOT GETTING OTHER THINGS.

If you get the F5 skill, you sacrifice something. What that something is depends on the build. Maybe it’s CI/BI. Maybe it’s power block and CS. Maybe staff cooldowns and PU, or DE and reflects. Something major is being sacrificed. If something major wasn’t also being gained…nobody would use chronomancer at all.

I’ve explicitly shown how many existing builds are potentially stronger without taking chronomancy. If that isn’t the most obvious proof of my statements…I’m not sure what could be.

That’s sort of not what their problem is though? If I want to spec for glamours and staff right now as a Mesmer, my ‘trade-off’ is that I’m also not going to be able to spec for Signets and Mantras. Do you understand? This trade-off exists in game currently and they are well aware that you lose a trait line to gain a trait line.

The fact that they trade one trait line for another is its own trade-off for them. They replace Illusions with Chronomancy. However, their issue is that there seems to be no trade when it comes to the new shatter. They are not losing a shatter to gain a shatter, and to them that isn’t a trade. Because the Chronomancer, to them, seems to be showing a net gain in the exchange. (Ex: One Trait Line sacrificed for a different Trait Line + a weapon. VS One Trait Line sacrificed for a different Trait Line + a weapon + a fifth shatter.) I’m trying very hard to get you to understand their line of thinking. :/

Edit: I’m not sure if I should try to re-itterate what he’s saying. Since everyone here seems to want to jump on him for (somehow?) thinking that base-line specs won’t be “as strong” as Chronomancer. Despite the fact that he’s stated otherwise again.. and again.. and again… But again, they aren’t saying that Chronomancer will somehow be stronger and they are not saying that base-line Mesmer will be unviable. They are just saying that they don’t see where the trade-off is for that fifth shatter. And that because there doesn’t seem to be that trade-off, it looks like the Chronomancer is gaining more than it is losing.

Holy c….
I have, many times now, explicitly stated that I do not think elite specs will be stronger then baseline.
I though I had been very careful to explain that I think baseline specs will still be viable, and perhaps even stronger then chrono (depending on how balance pans out).

Fay, you said it yourself, chrono will get wells, chrono will get f5, (and chrono will get shield).
And base mesmer will get?
Nothing, right? baseline mesmer will get nothing additional compared to what chrono will get? Is that statement correct? if so, then
THAT
IS
MY
PROBLEM

There are no trade offs for the things chrono will get that a baseline mesmer spec will not get.
You’re so busy telling me over and over again that I’m “wrong” that you don’t seem to be taking the time to properly read my post.

Like seriously, you said “this is wrong” TO THE PART OF MY POST WHERE I AGREED WITH YOU.
Do you realize that? I agreed with what you wrote, and you responded by telling me I’m wrong.
In fact, I saw what you wrote in another thread, thought to myself “oh yea, that’s a good point” and then went out of my way to take note of it in my post earlier in this thread.

Now here’s something I can work with:
You mentioned taking the chronomancer line doesn’t give you: torment on shatter, lower cooldowns on staff, more reflects.
You’re right, it doesn’t. Other traits line give you those things. Trait lines which you can take along side your chronomancer line. You can, after all, pick 3 trait lines.
You don’t “lose” an entire line of traits if you pick chrono, you opt out of several trait lines. The same way you opt out of chaos and inspiration in my above example. It’s the exact same trait line choice trade-off we’ve had since late-beta before GW2 launched. It’s not a trade off related to what chronomancy is getting, it’s just a regular trait trade-off, of the same kind you’d have to make regardless of which trait lines you pick.
This is what you don’t seem to understand.

If I pick Domination, Dueling, and Illusions, I get everything that is standard to mesmer, and three full trait lines of traits.
If I pick Domination, Dueling, and Chronomancy, I get everything that is standard to mesmer, and three full trait lines of traits, PLUS an extra f5 shatter, the ability to wield a shield, and wells added to my ability list.

Do you see the difference there? The chronomancer gets more ‘stuff’. More importantly, they get more ‘stuff’ without losing some old ‘stuff’ to compensate.
Perhaps to you this isn’t a problem. Perhaps to you it’s okay so long as baseline remains viable.
To me, it is a problem though, and that’s what I’m trying to make you understand. It’s a problem to me because it means elite specs get more resources, more ‘stuff’. Not necessarily stronger, but a larger pool, greater variety and flexibility.
They are mesmer+

Now if you want to reply, can you please address these points. Don’t come back if you’re just going to continue giving me snarky responses and misplaced “I told you so’s” without properly reading what I posted.

@Ross Biddle
I responded to you in-part above, but to save you from that wall of text:
I did not claim elite specs will be stronger then baseline specs. You misunderstand.
I wrote:
“Does that mean baseline specs will be irrelevant, or nonviable? of course not.”
&
“Does that mean you’ll be unable to create strong builds, perhaps even the “best” builds, using the baseline only? of course not”
In other words, my claim is that baseline builds will likely be just as good as elite spec builds, perhaps even stronger then elite spec builds. However, since the elite specs get more abilities and weapons then baseline, I find this makes it feel like baseline is being treated like “second class citizens”.

Iretha.7625:

The fact that they trade one trait line for another is its own trade-off for them. They replace Illusions with Chronomancy. However, their issue is that there seems to be no trade when it comes to the new shatter. They are not losing a shatter to gain a shatter, and to them that isn’t a trade. Because the Chronomancer, to them, seems to be showing a net gain in the exchange. (Ex: One Trait Line sacrificed for a different Trait Line + a weapon. VS One Trait Line sacrificed for a different Trait Line + a weapon + a fifth shatter.) I’m trying very hard to get you to understand their line of thinking. :/

The problem is that that line of thinking is trying to equate things that simply can’t be equated. It’s not valid to say ‘One trait line + a weapon is better than another trait line’. What if your build doesn’t use the skills on shield well? What if your build doesn’t use wells effectively? What if your build simply doesn’t function without traits in domination, dueling and inspiration?

That line of thinking simply too limited to understand how these lines will interact. Instead of trying to break it down into weapons and traits and skills, which can’t really be directly compared, just look at it generally. Taking (insert trait line here) gives the mesmer “stuff”. Taking chronomancer gives the mesmer “other stuff”. Sometimes the “stuff” is going be better than the “other stuff”. Sometimes the “other stuff” is going to be better than the “stuff”.

Just because “other stuff” contains an F5 and shield doesn’t mean that it’s better or more optimal or even more at all. It just means it’s different.

I think everyone is looking at this the wrong way… Specializations are supposed to give us access to an additional weapon (we all know this part), BUT every other class is getting either a main hand or 2-handed weapon (so far that i know). so, I’m pretty sure the F5 shatter is intended to be the “something just as good” to make our specialization competitive with all of the other classes. If we had to give up something additional for it, it really wouldn’t be ‘just as good’.

You guys are comparing our base specializations with our only elite at this time instead of comparing it with what the other classes will be getting. There is a reason we will only be able to equip one elite at a time- its intended to make an impact on the way you play. That does not make it better than the base specializations though… that’s silly to suggest.

Fay.2357:

The problem is that that line of thinking is trying to equate things that simply can’t be equated. It’s not valid to say ‘One trait line + a weapon is better than another trait line’. What if your build doesn’t use the skills on shield well? What if your build doesn’t use wells effectively? What if your build simply doesn’t function without traits in domination, dueling and inspiration?

That line of thinking simply too limited to understand how these lines will interact. Instead of trying to break it down into weapons and traits and skills, which can’t really be directly compared, just look at it generally. Taking (insert trait line here) gives the mesmer “stuff”. Taking chronomancer gives the mesmer “other stuff”. Sometimes the “stuff” is going be better than the “other stuff”. Sometimes the “other stuff” is going to be better than the “stuff”.

Just because “other stuff” contains an F5 and shield doesn’t mean that it’s better or more optimal or even more at all. It just means it’s different.

Here we go again… that isn’t what they are thinking, though. They aren’t saying “One trait line + a weapon is better than another trait line.” They’ve yelled that so many times I swear they must be blue in the face by now. Again, their primary problem is the F5 skill. What are base-line Mesmers trading out to gain an extra shatter? (This is not a weapon, it’s not something that a Chronomancer may or may not equip or use.)

For example: If I trait for glamours, and you trait for shatters. I’m trading shatters for glamours, you trade glamours for shatters. However, if on top of my trading away shatters to have glamours, I get an extra shatter ability that is unavailable to you. What did I trade to get that shatter?

I’m sure that if I re-iterate it eventually someone will understand what this dude is saying.

@Mikkel
Yea, that’s about right. The f5 shatter is supposed to be complimentary to the shield, to compensate for the fact that a single off-hand weapon has less abilities.
That still leaves an identity problem for baseline mesmers, who have nothing distinct compared to chronomancers who get the new weapons and abilities (wells).

Arewn.2368:

@Mikkel
Yea, that’s about right. The f5 shatter is supposed to be complimentary to the shield, to compensate for the fact that a single off-hand weapon has less abilities.
That still leaves an identity problem for baseline mesmers, who have nothing distinct compared to chronomancers who get the new weapons and abilities (wells).

Ok, then we’re not talking about just mesmers then… we’re talking about the specialization system as a whole. Every profession will have to weigh the value of the extra utilities and weapon that comes with their elite. The only way you can see that as a problem is if you consider the extra utilities and weapon to be better than everything else the profession has access to. Which is what makes this argument silly… at this point that’s 100% speculative.

Arewn.2368:

If I pick Domination, Dueling, and Illusions, I get everything that is standard to mesmer, and three full trait lines of traits.
If I pick Domination, Dueling, and Chronomancy, I get everything that is standard to mesmer, and three full trait lines of traits, PLUS an extra f5 shatter, the ability to wield a shield, and wells added to my ability list.

The basic issue with your arguments and logic is that you’re simply making the assumption that F5, shield, and wells have value greater than what you’re giving up. This is not an assumption that you can just make and forget about.

So lets look at that assumption you made, and see if it holds true.

So there’s 3 things that chrono gives that are unique. It unlocks access to shield, wells, and the F5 shatter. Let’s look at the shield and wells first.

So chronomancy unlocks access to the shield. No other traitline unlocks access to another weapon, but everyone is going to end up with the same number of weapons. If you want to use the skills on shield, you’ll have to trait chronomancer, but that in and of itself doesn’t make the chrono line stronger, it just means you’re forced to take it if you want shield.

Wells are similar. Chronomancy unlocks access to wells, but you’ve still got just 3 utility slots, a heal, and an elite. You get a wider range of options by going into chronomancy, but the majority of builds aren’t going to need or want the options it provides. Some builds will, and those will be forced to take chronomancy. This also is not a valid reason for the line actually being a better choice.

Now we’ve got F5. Unlike the other two things, F5 is absolutely a unique addition to the class that isn’t reflected by other traiting choices. The problem here, though, is that you’re attempting to just end your analysis at this point. You say ‘Chrono gets F5, other specs don’t, and this makes them unbalanced’. That’s an incomplete analysis, and not valid by itself.

Ultimately, the question is this: What is stronger: F5 and the chrono line, or no F5 and a different line? The answer to this question is ‘it depends’. Sometimes F5 and the chrono line will be better, and sometimes they won’t.

Arewn.2368:

It’s a problem to me because it means elite specs get more resources, more ‘stuff’. Not necessarily stronger, but a larger pool, greater variety and flexibility.
They are mesmer+

This is the main issue that you seem to have, and it’s the part that makes the least sense to me. You appear to be complaining purely because they get more stuff. This…makes no sense. What does it matter that one line gets stuff if that stuff isn’t strong, or isn’t worth taking for your build? What does it matter if the guy over there is using a shield if your build doesn’t use a shield effectively? Why should you care if that mesmer is dropping wells when your build is specialized for single target damage?

The greater variety and flexibility inherent to elite specs is available to all mesmers, it’s not like you’re locked out of it for some reason. If you need theutility that chrono offers, then you take chrono. If you want to specialize in something that chrono doesn’t offer…then you don’t take chrono. The fact that it exists doesn’t make everything else less…it just means you have more options. It means everyone has more options. This is never a bad thing. The only possible valid complaint is if chrono was objectively a better choice for all builds. This is not true, and so the complaint is not valid.

I’m going to try to re-identify my problem for you here. Maybe from this perspective it will be easier for you to get where I’m coming from.
Base mesmer is facing an identify crisis. Chrono Mesmers will have everything base mesmer has, plus chrono additions making them distinct. When we get more elite specs, each of those will have what base mesmer has, plus new-elite-spec additions making them distinct.
Base mesmer has no such thing with the current direction they are taking.
“oh you’re a chrono? so you have X defining characteristics available to you.”
“oh you’re an elitespec2? so you have Y defining characteristics available to you.”
“oh you’re an elitespec3? so you have Z defining characteristics available to you.”

“oh you’re just a mesmer? no elite spec? so you have no additional defining characteristics available to you. Chrono, elitespec2, and elitespec3 can each potentially bring the same things to the table as you.”

I would have expected that some aspect of base mesmer remains unique to the base mesmer.
Yes, if you’ve unlocked all the elite specs on your character, you could just swap to them and have what ever you want from it. That’s more options for the class. That’s great.
Yes, you can make viable (potentially even the strongest) builds using just the base spec. But where’s the identity? What defining characteristic does base mesmer have that makes it shine? The fact that it can’t use any of the other specs’ defining characteristics isn’t much of a defining characteristic. “I’m special because I lack something special!” doesn’t fly with me.

…and I’m seriously going to cry if you keep mis-representing my point. I’m not working under the assumption that elite specs are better
I do not think elite specs will necessarily be better then base specs.
I do not think that base specs will be trivialized by elite specs.
I do not think that base specs will be bad compared to elite specs.
I do not think that base specs will be nonviable compared to elite specs.
I do not think that the elite spec line will be better then the the base spec lines.
I do not think the extra options that come with the elite spec will necessarily make it stronger then base specs. (otherwise warriors would be the strongest class)
I do not think chrono is an objectively better choice for all builds.
And I never claimed any of the above to be the case.

So your entire issue boils down to asthetics?

I mean, I think the only solution to that sort of insanity is lead poisoning.

What I think you don’t understand is elite specializations won’t change completely a profession, but they will bring different touches.
Any chronomancer (and the other elite specializations to come) will have 2 of the 5 base mesmer specializations.

You talk about identity crisis… What crisis, when any elite specialization will still be able to take DE and PU, DE and MtD, MtD and PU, CS+CI+new Power Block…? Aren’t illusions, shatters, DE, IP, PU, MtD, CI, CS… part of the identity of mesmers?

People won’t come and say: “I’m a Chronomancer” or a “Elite Spec 2”. We will all be mesmers and meta builds will determinate what to be in any situation.

So…let me try and get this straight. You’re not worried that chronomancy is going to be better. What you’re worried about is basically that chronomancy is going to have a shiny new toy, and non-chrono mesmer isn’t? But you’re not worried that the shiny new toy is going to be better, you’re just worried about the fact that it exists.

This is a…unique view of the situation.

Ansau.7326:

Aren’t illusions, shatters, DE, IP, PU, MtD, CI, CS… part of the identity of mesmers?

…Yes, and Cronomancers are Mesmers….

If you’re trying to distinguish a different class, Revenant is the new kid on the block. New armor to hp pool, Unique weapon sets, skills, and core class abilities.

Honestly, are you guys even thinking about what you’re saying anymore? -_-u

Thing is chronmancers only get to choose 2 out of 5 trait lines (and it’s the whole line now, not just cherry picking) so will be limited or have to give up some really good traits if they want to fill a roll AND be a chronomancer.

A Mesmer not being chronomancer gets 3 out of 5 and so can be much stronger.

The person arguing about memsers being second class citizens needs to think about that. As a chronomancer if you want interrupts as your play you will go chaos and probably domination, you get the extra jazz from chronomancer and that’s sweet.

BUT the base Mesmer instead gets a frankly amazing pistol trait, 3 awesome minors (which 2 act as cover conditions) and to reduce recharge on sword attacks in addition to a choice between 2 very defining grandmasters in duelling.

Sure the chronomancer could spec into duelling too but then it would miss out on the amazing power block or CI which are imo too good to give up. A base mesmer gets to make the base class better through more trait choices that affect the base class, that is its identity.

A chronomancer is going to be facing some very tough choices on traits and won’t be able to have all that a “base mesmer” has. Base mesmers won’t be facing as tough decisions as they can get so much now.

In the above example, would I say picking the duelling line instead of the chronomancer and the shield/F5 combo was worth it? At the moment and on the limited knowledge we have of it all, yes, yes I would. In fact I would say it’s better.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Ansau.7326:

Aren’t illusions, shatters, DE, IP, PU, MtD, CI, CS… part of the identity of mesmers?

…Yes, and Cronomancers are Mesmers….

If you’re trying to distinguish a different class, Revenant is the new kid on the block. New armor to hp pool, Unique weapon sets, skills, and core class abilities.

Honestly, are you guys even thinking about what you’re saying anymore? -_-u

If you didn’t saw that question as a obvious rhetorical, and a tag question, then sorry but you have comprehension problems…

In fact, your first sentence says pretty much the same as my last paragraph.

To throw in my thoughts here:

There will be MORE elite specializations. What does that mean (especially the word “ELITE”?) It means that we have the choice for ONE (1) Elite speciallization + 2 core specializations or 3 core specializations. That means that somewhen in the future we will have the choice between different elite specializations which will always grant acces to a new traitline, a new mechanic and a full set of skill + weapon skills. This is the main aspect of this system and the reason for chonomancy being the only specialization with access to shield and alacrity.

Just to clarify, you won’t be able to choose two or three elite specializations. That’s why they are called ELITE…

I think shields on mesmers are fitting. It goes with the whole duelist theme that anet seemed to try and stress with mesmers. That is,duelists who shoot mind bullets and distort your senses. It would better if shields were made to look smaller on chronomancers. Sort of like Iberian swashbucklers or something to that nature. That and skins that made swords look more like fleurrets/rapiers.

WarlordEXE.1364:

I think shields on mesmers are fitting. It goes with the whole duelist theme that anet seemed to try and stress with mesmers. That is,duelists who shoot mind bullets and distort your senses. It would better if shields were made to look smaller on chronomancers. Sort of like Iberian swashbucklers or something to that nature. That and skins that made swords look more like fleurrets/rapiers.

That may be your own opinion I personally don’t like small shields. They could add some smaller ones ofcourse for all those who like it :P
Anet, please don’t make the shields smaller overall for Chronomancers.

Mikkel.8427:

I think everyone is looking at this the wrong way… Specializations are supposed to give us access to an additional weapon (we all know this part), BUT every other class is getting either a main hand or 2-handed weapon (so far that i know). so, I’m pretty sure the F5 shatter is intended to be the “something just as good” to make our specialization competitive with all of the other classes. If we had to give up something additional for it, it really wouldn’t be ‘just as good’.

You guys are comparing our base specializations with our only elite at this time instead of comparing it with what the other classes will be getting. There is a reason we will only be able to equip one elite at a time- its intended to make an impact on the way you play. That does not make it better than the base specializations though… that’s silly to suggest.

You are assuming what Anet is selling to Mesmer is “just as good” as what other classes are getting, frankly I have my doubts. I think Fay pointed out in his (or her) detailed posts already, those are very valid concerns for Mesmers in HOT.

Michal.4513:

Keep in mind that we dont have use shield to use everythink others.
Picking Chrono traits line give you:
-new weapon to chose
-new skill
-propably block few other gamebraking skills (moa/Sign of illusions)

But yea as Chrono you can run pistol/staff and stun/daze all day long(both have CD refresh on skills, dont mention we have f5 x)

tough f5 would work only using shield equiped?

Aeolus.3615:

Michal.4513:

Keep in mind that we dont have use shield to use everythink others.
Picking Chrono traits line give you:
-new weapon to chose
-new skill
-propably block few other gamebraking skills (moa/Sign of illusions)

But yea as Chrono you can run pistol/staff and stun/daze all day long(both have CD refresh on skills, dont mention we have f5 x)

tough f5 would work only using shield equiped?

The new shatter is (thankfully) not tied to the use of a shield, so you’re not forced to use a shield when you spec into Chronomancy. The option is simply there for you to equip one if you wish to do so.

ITT: People who don’t know what “opportunity cost” is.

I get the complaint about the f5 shatter. I think they should have semi-replaced one of the existing shatters with the new f5 shatters for chronomancers…instead of just tacking on a new shatter for people to complain about. For example, I think all shatters should do decent damage. That being the case, why not merge some existing shatters and have the the new f5 effect be a modification of the current f4 shatter. You could merge the damage of f1 into all of the other shatters. This would bring it down to 3 shatters total. All 3 would do respectable damage, but have their own unique effects at the same time. You would eliminate the new button for people who don’t spec chrono to target. The new and future elite mes specs would just swap out an extra effect on an existing shatter.

One thing that we should remember is that according to the latest twitch vid is that the the shield will be received via minor trait same as for the f5 skill, therefor the chronomancer will have use 2 minor for the new mechanics giving some type of balance with the baseline mesmer, baseline minor skills will be able to enhance the mesmer skills while chronomancer will use it in order to receive the new skills\weapon. What if the Alacrity will also occupy its own minor trait, in my opinion it will give better balance.

Arewn.2368:

I’m going to try to re-identify my problem for you here. Maybe from this perspective it will be easier for you to get where I’m coming from.
Base mesmer is facing an identify crisis. Chrono Mesmers will have everything base mesmer has, plus chrono additions making them distinct. When we get more elite specs, each of those will have what base mesmer has, plus new-elite-spec additions making them distinct.

Unless some traits in the chronomancy spec completely overlaps with traits in other lines, that is the difference between a Chronomancer and a Mesmer.

Let’s pick an example: the standard power Shatter build, that has been in game since the start, after the trait rework will probably still look Domination/Dueling/Illusions. If you pick Chronomancy over any of those lines, you won’t be able to run the “standard Shatter build”. You can run “a Shatter build”, using what the Chronomancy spec may offer in clone generation and Shatter damage, but it won’t play exactly the same.

If for any reason you’ll end up thinking “wow this Domi/Chaos/Inspi build would work perfectly with F5, shield or Wells!”… sorry! No dice… if you want access to shield, F5 and wells, you need to trade one of those specs for Chronomancy, even if the traits are less suited to what you had in mind.

While you say a Chronomancer has more flexibility, in fact it has less, because if you want access to any of the Chronomancer goodies you are forced into choosing that Specialization and your “flexibility” is reduced to two other specs you can choose from the 5 core specs.

You are saying there’s no tradeoff, but that is the tradeoff: you are giving up your nature of “mesmer” as defined by a “core build” (made only with core specializations) to get access to the new shinies. You’ll be a Chronomancer. ANet even said you’ll get a new class icon when you pick the Elite Spec.

Its sad that shield is only available for the spezialisation. They should make weapons for the basic class, and the ulities and traits for the specialization. There would be more build diversity.

Given that we haven’t been given the full list of traits available from the Chronomancer traitline, I’d say it’s a bit early to say whether or not it is “bad design”. I’d also ask what qualifications you have to lend some weight so that opinion given that I see no hard proof to support it as anything resembling a fact.

Ross and Pyro have done a nice job of explaining Chronomancer’s current position in the theorycrafting world in different ways. Pyro even has a nice write-up in this thread on why someone would want to take only 3 non-Elite Specializations for various builds given their strengths and synergies together for those builds.

People need to get out of their heads ideas like “Standard Shatter Mesmer”. Sure, with the current trait system we have two mainline shatter specs, Condition and Power.

If you look at the possibilities available from the new Specializations system and baselines, there are drastically more ways to build a “Shatter Mesmer”.

The same goes for other “types” of Mesmer builds. Chronomancer just adds another Specialization to the list of 5 which gives us yet another viable choice that could fit into a Shatter, Phantasm, etc. build.

It’s another choice with its own pros/cons like all of the rest of the Specializations.

A Mesmer can only use the new F5 shatter if they take Chronomancer. To this I ask the question, “So what?”. There is counterplay to this shatter. Not all builds will be as capable/apt to make use of this shatter equally. Having this ability comes at the cost of not having other abilities/traits. This is the same sort of trade-off you have to make when selecting 3 Specializations from the 5 non-Elite Specializations.

A Mesmer can only use shield if they take Chronomancer. To this I ask the question, “So what?” Not every Mesmer build will work well with the shield. Not every Mesmer will want to use the shield. The shield is not some overpowered “best weapon we have”. It will work for some builds and suck for others.

A Mesmer can only use Wells if they take Chronomancer.To this I ask the question, “So what?”. Not every Mesmer build will work well with wells. Not every Mesmer will want to use wells. Wells are not some overpowered “best skills we have”. They will work with some builds and suck for others.

Sebrent.3625:

People need to get out of their heads ideas like “Standard Shatter Mesmer”. Sure, with the current trait system we have two mainline shatter specs, Condition and Power.

If you look at the possibilities available from the new Specializations system and baselines, there are drastically more ways to build a “Shatter Mesmer”.

there might be more shatter builds, but all of them will play differently than the “standard power shatter” (it was between quotes for a reason)

Menaka.5092:

Sebrent.3625:

People need to get out of their heads ideas like “Standard Shatter Mesmer”. Sure, with the current trait system we have two mainline shatter specs, Condition and Power.

If you look at the possibilities available from the new Specializations system and baselines, there are drastically more ways to build a “Shatter Mesmer”.

there might be more shatter builds, but all of them will play differently than the “standard power shatter” (it was between quotes for a reason)

The “Standard Power Shatter” never used a shield nor had an F5 shatter either … so I fail to see your point here in the context of this thread.

OK – I haven’t read the entire thread because it seemed to start re-hashing itslelf… For my 2 cents though… the problem with the new skills not being baseline is that in PVP it is not at all unusual for there to be quite limited scope in what is an optimum build. My prediction will be that in PVP atleast we will therefore (more or less) ALL end up speccing into Chrono or ALL won’t be. If it’s the latter and Chrono is sub-optimal then we all just carry on doing the same thing we’ve been doing for years – which sucks. If Chrono is optimal then all the previous baselines become redundant and Chrono becomes ‘Psuedo baked-in’ baseline anyway, which is just bad game design. Time will tell but personally I’m concerned that this is more likely to further limit builds than diversify them.

Dirtyrascal.1023:

OK – I haven’t read the entire thread because it seemed to start re-hashing itslelf… For my 2 cents though… the problem with the new skills not being baseline is that in PVP it is not at all unusual for there to be quite limited scope in what is an optimum build. My prediction will be that in PVP atleast we will therefore (more or less) ALL end up speccing into Chrono or ALL won’t be. If it’s the latter and Chrono is sub-optimal then we all just carry on doing the same thing we’ve been doing for years – which sucks. If Chrono is optimal then all the previous baselines become redundant and Chrono becomes ‘Psuedo baked-in’ baseline anyway, which is just bad game design. Time will tell but personally I’m concerned that this is more likely to further limit builds than diversify them.

We will be able to grandmaster in three separate trait lines after the trait overhaul. Builds will be nothing but more diverse after this change. Right off the bat we immediately have at least three specs that have been boosted to well beyond what they were in the past, with a staple IP being made baseline. So even if Chromomancy does bring something great to the table, everyone no matter who they are will be better off than they were.

I get the impression that people are kind of focusing on a theoretical scenario in which chronomancy impacts the highest levels of play in such a manner. I’m willing to bet that next to none of us play at that level.

@Menaka’s most recent reply to my post
Of course choosing the chronomancer trait line presents a trade-off. Obviously. That’s the exact same trade off we’ve had since launch. Whether you’re picking chrono, or illusions, or dueling, or whatever as one of your trait lines, you are always finding yourself with that exact same trade-off situation. The “flexibility” one gives up by choosing the chrono trait line is the exact same as when you chose any other trait line.
If you were to look at mesmer and chrono and say “all things held equal”, this common trade-off they both have to deal with would be one of those things.
And core builds? to heck with core builds. Core builds have, and will continue, to be developed regardless. Some will incorporate the new chrono additions, some wont. It’s irrelevant to the argument at hand.

If on one hand I’m presented with a mesmer, and on the other hand I’m presented with a mesmer with all the bells and whistles attached (read: chronomancer), then obviously the one with all the bells and whistles is going to be more enticing. That doesn’t mean it will be stronger, and that doesn’t mean it will have the build I ultimately end up using, but it will be more enticing. It has more to offer, even if that doesn’t translate into additional combat prowess.
Picking chrono by default net’s me some extra features compared to just mesmer. And from there I just pick two more trait lines, any of which I want from the mesmer profession, and make a build out of it. Same way you would when picking a profession at character creation.

If I need a music player, and what I need from it is just the ability to play music, then obviously all the additional features of an Ipod are worthless to that goal. And I could listen to music perfectly well, perhaps even with better quality, on some no-name mp3 player. But that doesn’t mean the Ipod’s additional features don’t exist. That doesn’t mean they aren’t nice to have. That doesn’t mean they don’t hold some value or feeling of attraction. Those additional features sell Ipods, and are subsequently used by the users.
This is the kind of value I place on the chronomancer’s(elite specs) additions. And this is the kind of value I would like to find in mesmers(baseline specs).
I don’t want to see base specs remain mundane in an ever growing pool of special elite specs. I want them to be distinct, and hold their own exclusives.

@Arewn:
But, the shield and well skills are just one part of the traitline. It’s no different than a minor skill giving you might on shatter, in a way. It looks different, but in a way there are passive elements of a traitline giving you power and/or flexibility in your setup. These can also encompass more active (in this context selected traits) components: an Inspiration trait makes you more flexible by not having to rely on Mantra or Null Field to cleanse conditions off you.

This is no different. The flexibility the traitline offers with it’s additional abilities is just one part of it. So long as the total package is balanced, it doesn’t matter at all. To compare with your iPad analogy, if the iPad plays music worse than the other mp3 player you have, then the flexibility is a trade-off for inferior raw main performance.
That is the way to balance flexibility. It comes at the cost of raw power. The more specialized you are, the greater your power at that element since you give up more and more. In turn the more flexible you are…
(and Chronomancer adds flexibility, so a balanced setup has them weaker)

i am assuiming here that for pvp (mainly) if taking chrono with power shatter build than the traid off will be with the game stlye mainly
f5 will bring nice combo tricks , shield may be in use but not must. thus ending in more build diversity to gain same result of power shatter (same goes to condi shatter)

so i dont think all player will choose chrono if they play power/condi shatter and i think and hope we will see more diversity in builds and game style

Sebrent.3625:

Menaka.5092:

Sebrent.3625:

People need to get out of their heads ideas like “Standard Shatter Mesmer”. Sure, with the current trait system we have two mainline shatter specs, Condition and Power.

If you look at the possibilities available from the new Specializations system and baselines, there are drastically more ways to build a “Shatter Mesmer”.

there might be more shatter builds, but all of them will play differently than the “standard power shatter” (it was between quotes for a reason)

The “Standard Power Shatter” never used a shield nor had an F5 shatter either … so I fail to see your point here in the context of this thread.

as I said, that was an example of what you are giving up by speccing in Chronomancy: you cannot play that shatter build anymore