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Posted by: Sethren.8472

Sethren.8472

Taken directly from the Guild Wars 2 wiki: “Mesmers are masters of mirage. They weave deception magic that seeks to confound, disorient and dumbfound their enemies.” Therefore, the reader can conclude that a Mesmer is a class designed on confusing, disorienting, and manipulating their opponent using the art of deception. The main area where ArenaNet has actively gone counterproductive to this is with the debuff of Confusion.

Based on the description that ArenaNet gave the Mesmer class (thereby defining the class’s role), Confusion should be the Mesmer’s domain. That means the Mesmer should be the only class who can reliably apply stacks of Confusion and maintain those stacks easily, and the Mesmer should actively benefit from applying Confusion.

Instead, the Mesmer is the one class who has the hardest time applying Confusion reliably. If a group needs stacks of Confusion reliably maintained, the group will rely on an Engineer to apply the debuff through Pry Bar, Static Shot, Confusing Speech, and Concussion Bomb. The fact that an Engineer can apply Confusion more reliably than a Mesmer is a grievously fundamental flaw. It slaps the core concept of the Mesmer in the face.

Allow me to use an example of another class to highlight the problem. A Fire Elementalist relies heavily on the Burning debuff. They can do more damage to a target who is burning, and many of its skills apply Burning. Therefore, it becomes an on-going cycle that ultimately benefits the Elementalist, and it is detrimental to their foe. It happens naturally in the course of the fight. This is how Confusion should work with the Mesmer.

Now, let’s imagine that ArenaNet did the same thing to the Elementalist that was done to the Mesmer. The Fire Elementalist would no longer be able to consistently and reliably keep up Burning. Therefore, the player would have to work extra hard to try to maintain that debuff in order to receive the increased damage benefit. Now, to add insult to injury, let’s say that a Guardian could actually keep the burning debuff up longer and more reliably. See the flaw?

As Burning is to the Fire Elementalist, so too should Confusion be to the Mesmer. Confusion should be applied easily and effortlessly for the Mesmer, and the Mesmer should be able to easily and reliably maintain Confusion on a mob. The Engineer should be the one who has a harder time keeping confusion on a mob, not the Mesmer.

As a result, the Confusion mechanic needs to be completely reworked so that the Mesmer actually gets to perform the role that ArenaNet designed the class to fulfill. Where I feel ArenaNet went wrong is that instead of giving the other classes a reliable counter to Confusion in PvP, they instead nerfed the Mesmer’s ability to use it – thereby crippling the Mesmer in PvE as a result. That brings me to a solution.

The reality is that it is impossible to balance the classes for PvP and PvE using the same batch of code. PvP and PvE should have separate balancing mechanics and coding. The tweaks made to skills in PvP should not effect the skills in PvE, and vice versa. The “one-size-fits-all” mentality for balancing skills does not work when PvP and PvE are both effected. The two styles of play have two completely different balancing rule sets.

As a result of the tweaks made for Mesmers in PvP, the Mesmer in PvE has been crippled and essentially turned into a second-class profession. That is a shame because the Mesmer is an extremely fun class to play, and it has so much potential that is being withheld. However, with the current single batch of coding, ArenaNet can’t undo the damage caused in PvE without unbalancing PvP. Yes, it will mean more work on the programming side, but it’s the only viable option to make both groups of players happy. Otherwise, one is happy at the expense of the other. Why should the players who only PvE be punished because the Mesmer in PvP is overpowered? In bringing the Mesmer in PvP back in line with the other classes, the Mesmer in PvE is relegated to portal/veil duty in a group because what the Mesmer can do, other classes can do better.

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Posted by: Coulter.2315

Coulter.2315

Do you think that Mesmers are OP in PvP? Guardians can apply Burning better than Eles, also Confusion in PvE is rubbish not because of application problems but because of mob attack rates.

I do however agree with the principle of having different PvE and PvP versions of skills – which they did a lot of in GW1 AND promised they’d do here. (They say they don’t because of more things to learn for transfering from 1 mode to another but GW1 had many more skills and was much more complicated so I don’t see how that argument stands up)

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Posted by: Sethren.8472

Sethren.8472

Do you think that Mesmers are OP in PvP? Guardians can apply Burning better than Eles, also Confusion in PvE is rubbish not because of application problems but because of mob attack rates.

That wasn’t my point. The point was the separation of skills. However, the reason Mesmers are nerfed is from PvP, not PvE. It’s always PvP balancing that ruins a class in PvE because game developers refuse to acknowledge that they can’t balance both using the same set of skills. Instead, they keep trying to muscle that square peg into a round hole.

If a Guardian can apply Burning better than an Ele: (1) it doesn’t justify the Engineer/Mesmer issue with Confusion, and (2) I’d have to see it to believe it (having played both).

The application of Confusion is certainly the issue in PvE. Even a mob’s auto attack triggers it. They don’t have to use a skill. The debuff needs work, and it should be given back to the Mesmer without all the PvP-strings attached.

I do however agree with the principle of having different PvE and PvP versions of skills – which they did a lot of in GW1 AND promised they’d do here. (They say they don’t because of more things to learn for transfering from 1 mode to another but GW1 had many more skills and was much more complicated so I don’t see how that argument stands up)

We’re in complete agreement on this one.

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Posted by: Spanny.9256

Spanny.9256

at one point i had 30+ seconds of burning in wvw just from coming in contact with a guardian i’m almost certain..

anyway yeah honestly i liked where you were headed with the confusion idea but when you detoured into the pve aspect i got a little lost

confusion isnt an EFFECTIVE pve condition, but thats just my opinion

p.s. mesmers are not as glamorous in pvp as you lead readers to believe but that’s a whole nother can of worms i’m not gonna get into; long story short i get asked to play other classes like ele/hambow warr when i show up with shatter mesmer (which i’ve played for months)

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Posted by: Fay.2357

Fay.2357

Uh yeah. Nothing that anet has ever done to confusion ever made it more or less viable in PvE. Confusion has always been absolutely worthless in PvE, and that’s never changed.

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Posted by: Sethren.8472

Sethren.8472

anyway yeah honestly i liked where you were headed with the confusion idea but when you detoured into the pve aspect i got a little lost

The reason for linking the two (confusion and PvE) was because the initial breaking of how the debuff worked in PvE was due to it being “overpowered” in PvP. Instead of giving other classes a counter (which cleanse is), they opted for the easy route and broke the mechanic.

confusion isnt an EFFECTIVE pve condition, but thats just my opinion

Oh, I definitely agree that it needs serious work/rethinking. That is in addition to them giving it back to the Mesmer, so a Mesmer doesn’t have to work three times as hard as an Engineer to apply their own class mechanic. That still baffles me.

p.s. mesmers are not as glamorous in pvp as you lead readers to believe but that’s a whole nother can of worms i’m not gonna get into; long story short i get asked to play other classes like ele/hambow warr when i show up with shatter mesmer (which i’ve played for months)

I had no intention of misleading. I brought up Mesmers in PvP only to illustrate the failure of the current balancing system. I apologize if that was unclear.

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Posted by: Sethren.8472

Sethren.8472

Uh yeah. Nothing that anet has ever done to confusion ever made it more or less viable in PvE. Confusion has always been absolutely worthless in PvE, and that’s never changed.

In beta, it was sort of okay, but it was broken by the time launch came around. It still needed work in beta, certainly, but it was destroyed before launch due to the ramifications of the debuff in PvP (at least that was ANet’s justification at the time).

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Posted by: Fay.2357

Fay.2357

Uh yeah. Nothing that anet has ever done to confusion ever made it more or less viable in PvE. Confusion has always been absolutely worthless in PvE, and that’s never changed.

In beta, it was sort of okay, but it was broken by the time launch came around. It still needed work in beta, certainly, but it was destroyed before launch due to the ramifications of the debuff in PvP (at least that was ANet’s justification at the time).

No it wasn’t. I played in beta. It was horrid. As a matter of fact, it was twice as bad in betas, because it did what is now pvp/wvw damage in pve as well. It was doubled to the current values on release.

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Posted by: Sethren.8472

Sethren.8472

No it wasn’t. I played in beta. It was horrid. As a matter of fact, it was twice as bad in betas, because it did what is now pvp/wvw damage in pve as well. It was doubled to the current values on release.

In terms of applying the debuff, it was sort of okay (and I emphasize “sort of”). Yeah, the damage was horrid though.

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Posted by: Fay.2357

Fay.2357

No it wasn’t. I played in beta. It was horrid. As a matter of fact, it was twice as bad in betas, because it did what is now pvp/wvw damage in pve as well. It was doubled to the current values on release.

In terms of applying the debuff, it was sort of okay (and I emphasize “sort of”). Yeah, the damage was horrid though.

The only difference was autoattack on scepter, but it really doesn’t matter how many stacks you maintained. You could keep 10 permanent stacks on a mob and still outdamage it by afking in a zerker build.

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Posted by: StickerHappy.8052

StickerHappy.8052

@OP

At the confusion application part I agree with you.

Ill give you one example.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Distracting_Strikes

4 stacks every interrupt. 9 stacks with perplexity every ICD.

Shouldve been a mesmer trait IMO.

Next

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Concussion_Bomb
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Confusing_Speech
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pry_Bar
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Static_Shot

Ideal situation = 15 stacks of confusion. No perplexity.

US:

Confusion shatter = 4 stacks with 3 clones + IP (f1,f3)
CoF (8 stacks with IP and 3 clones) assuming your traited at the illusion line, untraited (3 stacks)
Scepter 3 = 5 stacks assuming all hits go through the channel
Image – 3 stacks on bounce, unreliable, IE only affects retal bounce. I reach 6 stacks of confusion on 2 bounces sometimes.

Glamour traits.
All master traits, 1 Enchantment 2 stacks = Enter/Exit, Blinding Beffudlement (matser trait with 5 sec ICD)

In short, we have a harder way to apply them although there are numerous sources.

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Posted by: NICENIKESHOE.7128

NICENIKESHOE.7128

The wiki said iMage’s “skill bounces twice and cannot bounce to a target more than once”. Meaning maximum of 3 stacks on a target from each iMage attack. Could someone confirm that for me please :P?

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Posted by: MSFone.3026

MSFone.3026

@OP

At the confusion application part I agree with you.

Ill give you one example.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Distracting_Strikes

4 stacks every interrupt. 9 stacks with perplexity every ICD.

Shouldve been a mesmer trait IMO.

I didn’t even know that warrior trait existed… wtf that is an absurd kittenin trait why the kitten is that not a mesmer trait. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, if I were in charge of class balance at Anet I would want to kittening kill myself in shame. This is an embarrassment for warriors to have that trait and not mesmers.

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Posted by: Nikku.3562

Nikku.3562

I didn’t even know that warrior trait existed… wtf that is an absurd kittenin trait why the kitten is that not a mesmer trait. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, if I were in charge of class balance at Anet I would want to kittening kill myself in shame. This is an embarrassment for warriors to have that trait and not mesmers.

Yeah I was furious/baffled when I saw this blatant Mesmer trait get given to Anet’s favourite profession. Particularly when compared with the buffet of crap we got served with those Grandmaster traits. Totally ridiculous.

I’m absolutely in favour of making Confusion, in some form, more useful in PvE and more distinctive of Mesmers. Personally I’d also like Mesmers to get more access to ‘make a choice’ conditions like Torment and shutdown conditions like Chill, rather than simple DoTs like Bleed and Burning.

I know one way of tackling the zerker meta that’s been floated on the forums is increasing PvE mobs’ attack speed. Though this would have to be part of a wider design shakeup, it would also serve to make Confusion more valuable in PvE.

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Posted by: Sethren.8472

Sethren.8472

The only difference was autoattack on scepter, but it really doesn’t matter how many stacks you maintained. You could keep 10 permanent stacks on a mob and still outdamage it by afking in a zerker build.

True. Very true. And they broke it even more when they removed the confusion application that the scepter had on AA. At least it was reliable.

@Nikku: You are friggin kidding me. That is literally an insult to the Mesmer. That is a Mesmer skill, not a Warrior skill. That is infuriating.

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Posted by: Fay.2357

Fay.2357

The only difference was autoattack on scepter, but it really doesn’t matter how many stacks you maintained. You could keep 10 permanent stacks on a mob and still outdamage it by afking in a zerker build.

True. Very true. And they broke it even more when they removed the confusion application that the scepter had on AA. At least it was reliable.

I’m not sure you’re understanding what I’m saying. You can’t break something ‘even more’ if it’s already completely worthless. Nothing they ever did to confusion changed how it functioned in PvE. It has always been worthless due to how mobs attack.

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Posted by: Sethren.8472

Sethren.8472

The only difference was autoattack on scepter, but it really doesn’t matter how many stacks you maintained. You could keep 10 permanent stacks on a mob and still outdamage it by afking in a zerker build.

True. Very true. And they broke it even more when they removed the confusion application that the scepter had on AA. At least it was reliable.

I’m not sure you’re understanding what I’m saying. You can’t break something ‘even more’ if it’s already completely worthless. Nothing they ever did to confusion changed how it functioned in PvE. It has always been worthless due to how mobs attack.

No, I understand you. We’re just each focusing on the opposite sides of the same coin. I’m referring to applying the debuff reliably, and you’re talking about its damage mechanic. They are the two sides of the same issue which is that confusion needs a massive rework to even make it worth being in-game.

I really like Nikku’s suggestion of giving Mesmers a fixed confusion, torment, and chill rather than bleed and burning. I like it a lot. The reason I like it is forcing your opponent (NPC or Player) to make a choice lines up with the very core of what a Mesmer is (or is supposed to be). We are supposed to be masters of deception and confusion. What better way to do that then force your enemy into positions where they have to “pick their poison” as it were?

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Posted by: Coulter.2315

Coulter.2315

Applying Confusion reliably and maintaining high stacks would break PvP and still be useless in PvE. It would break one game mode and not have any real effect on the other. Its not a good plan. I do agree it sounds the most Mesmeric condition however it just doesn’t fit well into the game’s design – thats an error the devs made at conception but you pushing for its improvement won’t help anyone.

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Posted by: loseridoit.2756

loseridoit.2756

\

I really like Nikku’s suggestion of giving Mesmers a fixed confusion, torment, and chill rather than bleed and burning. I like it a lot. The reason I like it is forcing your opponent (NPC or Player) to make a choice lines up with the very core of what a Mesmer is (or is supposed to be). We are supposed to be masters of deception and confusion. What better way to do that then force your enemy into positions where they have to “pick their poison” as it were?

becareful with your suggestion. Chill is one of the most OP conditions in the game.

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Posted by: Sethren.8472

Sethren.8472

Applying Confusion reliably and maintaining high stacks would break PvP and still be useless in PvE. It would break one game mode and not have any real effect on the other. Its not a good plan. I do agree it sounds the most Mesmeric condition however it just doesn’t fit well into the game’s design – thats an error the devs made at conception but you pushing for its improvement won’t help anyone.

You are right. That’s why I would also advocate for the mechanic of the debuff to be changed (i.e., Confusion needs a full rework). I think someone suggested that it be changed to “do X damage per hit” instead of “X damage per action taken.” However, what if we tweaked the “X damage per action taken” to be whenever the Mesmer performs an action rather than the mob/opposing player? What do you all think of that?

My main point with Confusion being more reliable was that it should be the main debuff of the Mesmer instead of other classes being able to apply it with greater ease and reliability than us. Sure, they can apply it, but make them have to work harder at it, not us. That is in addition to the debuff being reworked.

@loseridoit: Point taken. I still really like Nikku’s suggestion though. I think those debuffs would be more in line with a Mesmer style rather than bleeding or burning.

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Posted by: Nikku.3562

Nikku.3562

becareful with your suggestion. Chill is one of the most OP conditions in the game.

In WvW and PvP, certainly. In PvE, not so much. But regardless of its utility, Mesmers have almost no access to Chill. I’m not suggesting we get an autoattack that stacks Chill :P It would just be nice to have one weapon skill which reliably applies it, given that we’re supposed to specialise in shutting enemies down.

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Posted by: Esplen.3940

Esplen.3940

Keep in mind, with the way Confusion works… it’s not meant to be applied in high uptime with tons of stacks, it’s supposed to be a burst of Confusion that lasts for a decent amount of time, followed by little to no Confusion and then another burst.

Of course, Mesmer doesn’t have that, either, because when we were able to do that, Anet deemed us OP and put us in the corner for being able to play the game.

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Posted by: Sethren.8472

Sethren.8472

Keep in mind, with the way Confusion works… it’s not meant to be applied in high uptime with tons of stacks, it’s supposed to be a burst of Confusion that lasts for a decent amount of time, followed by little to no Confusion and then another burst.

Of course, Mesmer doesn’t have that, either, because when we were able to do that, Anet deemed us OP and put us in the corner for being able to play the game.

Yep, we dared to play the class as intended. Now, we’ve been sent to the attic (Flowers in the Attic reference).

What you first described would be awesome. I would be thrilled with just that. Yet, like you said, we can’t even do that. Sometimes I wonder if ANet has really thought about what they’ve done to the Mesmer. Can they not see how badly they’ve broken the class? Do our pleas fall on deaf ears? Do they even care?

Yet, we die-hard Mesmers persevere. Hoping.

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Posted by: Esplen.3940

Esplen.3940

Incoming Tangent!

I think the first step on the road to getting Confusion fixed would actually, ironically, be Winds of Chaos not applying Vulnerability. If it was swapping between Burning and Bleeding, that would actually be a bit ridiculous in terms of DPS for a Condi Mesmer, and tacking on Poison would make it innately counter healing (3 Clones + Player = 4/3 chances of getting Poison, not guaranteed, but pretty darn high).

I honestly don’t agree with it getting Confusion because it goes against the idea of bursts of Confusion, but it does make the more sense.

Which brings us to Chilled, Blind, and Torment. Of those, only one actually deals damage, and would justly make sense. The other two wouldn’t be as bad as Vulnerability, and would keep in line with the defensive purpose of Staff.

Chilled would potentially make it hard (or simply annoying) to keep up with you, especially since it’s going to have such a short duration. It’ll be like watching a kid trip on rocks while still running at you.
Blind wouldn’t be overpowered and would probably still be as bad as Vulnerability since if all of your Winds of Chaos did Blind, it would still only mitigate one attack. On the other hand, that assumes that they all connect at the same time, so you could more realistically mitigate 2 attacks and, if you’re lucky, upwards of 4 or even more.

Torment makes sense because it punishes players for moving at you while also not being too significant in terms of damage (since we are only applying one stack on low duration, woooo).

My reasoning for the tangent to Staff is because for Anet to fix something that’s unintended or harmful to a profession, they have to admit it’s… unintended or harmful to a profession. Vulnerability on the Staff is harmful to the profession.

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Posted by: Veruah.5302

Veruah.5302

@OP

At the confusion application part I agree with you.

Ill give you one example.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Distracting_Strikes

4 stacks every interrupt. 9 stacks with perplexity every ICD.

Shouldve been a mesmer trait IMO.

What the…? I’ve never played a warrior and had no idea this existed. This is such a mesmer trait, even down to the name, that I wonder if somewhere during development a spreadsheet got mixed up or something and they’ve just never caught it.

I mean, does a warrior even have another non-rune set way of applying confusion? This seems really, really out of place for a warrior but would make an interesting trait to build around for a condition interrupt mesmer build.

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Posted by: StickerHappy.8052

StickerHappy.8052

@OP

At the confusion application part I agree with you.

Ill give you one example.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Distracting_Strikes

4 stacks every interrupt. 9 stacks with perplexity every ICD.

Shouldve been a mesmer trait IMO.

What the…? I’ve never played a warrior and had no idea this existed. This is such a mesmer trait, even down to the name, that I wonder if somewhere during development a spreadsheet got mixed up or something and they’ve just never caught it.

I mean, does a warrior even have another non-rune set way of applying confusion? This seems really, really out of place for a warrior but would make an interesting trait to build around for a condition interrupt mesmer build.

I said this on my previous thread. Our Confusing combatants (dueling 25) should be Confusion on interrupt plus confusion on death. Confusion on death for GM minor trait is so underwhelming. 25 pts just for that?

EDIT: 25 pts for 1 stack of confusion. What?? Warriors have theirs at master major so you could swap it out for diversity, costs 5 pts less. and No ICD, thats what the tooltip says anyway. for 4 STACKS for 8 SECONDS! VS OURS 1 STACK for 3 SECONDS! WHAAT??

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Posted by: Esplen.3940

Esplen.3940

Confusion on death for GM minor trait is so underwhelming. 25 pts just for that?

Don’t worry, mang, it’s only 5 points, so you still have 25+40 points to spend elsewhere. 1+8 points to spend elsewhere. Oh wait…

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Posted by: Me Games Ma.8426

Me Games Ma.8426

PvP
We Mesmers definetly are able to stack confusion quite high. The problem is that these stacks won’t last long enough to kill people (that’s because of -50% dmg nerf) it WAS possible for mesmers to oneshot people with confusion dealing almost 5k damage per hit.
If anet wants to make a confusion mesmer viable we should get a buff in damage OR duration. Both would be good good too but maybe over powered.

PvE
Not worth taking! I totally agree to what Fey said. This condition needs a complete rework. But… did you see any condition class being more viable for PvE than a zerker? o.O Why trying to buff something that won’t be worth taking anyways?

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Posted by: StickerHappy.8052

StickerHappy.8052

PvP
We Mesmers definetly are able to stack confusion quite high. The problem is that these stacks won’t last long enough to kill people (that’s because of -50% dmg nerf) it WAS possible for mesmers to oneshot people with confusion dealing almost 5k damage per hit.
If anet wants to make a confusion mesmer viable we should get a buff in damage OR duration. Both would be good good too but maybe over powered.

I agree somewhat that we are able to stack confusion quite high, but all the methods we have are unreliable

EX: Scept 3 = 5 stacks BUT all the channeling part has to hit,
iMage =no comment on this one, unreliable too slow to catch on moving targets
Shatter confusion = have to have 3 clones out for max stacks for f2 (with the trait again on illusions 5)
Glamour traits are meh now. 2 stacks on an enchantment

Total: Ideal situation 14 stacks with full 3 clone f2 shatter=3 skills

Now look at the Engineer (Just for comparison)

Pry bar is instant 5 stacks
With perplexity runes = interrupt pull plus prybar = 10 stacks instant.
Total of 2 skill + rune, effortless

I would totally agree with you if duelist has that 100% finisher + chaos storm, null field, feedback combo as before.

So in short the problem is that The application could be high if the process is RELIABLE. and I agree with your point the duration is too short for it even to matter.

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Posted by: Sethren.8472

Sethren.8472

PvP
We Mesmers definetly are able to stack confusion quite high. The problem is that these stacks won’t last long enough to kill people (that’s because of -50% dmg nerf) it WAS possible for mesmers to oneshot people with confusion dealing almost 5k damage per hit.
If anet wants to make a confusion mesmer viable we should get a buff in damage OR duration. Both would be good good too but maybe over powered.

PvE
Not worth taking! I totally agree to what Fey said. This condition needs a complete rework. But… did you see any condition class being more viable for PvE than a zerker? o.O Why trying to buff something that won’t be worth taking anyways?

Fay and I were/are in complete agreement. You see that in our discussion. We were simply discussing the two sides of the same problem. Both changes need to happen. (1) Confusion needs to be completely reworked, AND (2) Confusion (after being reworked) needs to be given back to the Mesmer to use easily and reliably, and be stripped from the other classes (they can still use it, but they should have the harder time, not us).

That warrior skill is just a blatant insult to Mesmers, plain and simple. Maybe not intentionally, but the same nonetheless.

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Posted by: NICENIKESHOE.7128

NICENIKESHOE.7128

PvP
We Mesmers definetly are able to stack confusion quite high. The problem is that these stacks won’t last long enough to kill people (that’s because of -50% dmg nerf) it WAS possible for mesmers to oneshot people with confusion dealing almost 5k damage per hit.
If anet wants to make a confusion mesmer viable we should get a buff in damage OR duration. Both would be good good too but maybe over powered.

I agree somewhat that we are able to stack confusion quite high, but all the methods we have are unreliable

EX: Scept 3 = 5 stacks BUT all the channeling part has to hit,
iMage =no comment on this one, unreliable too slow to catch on moving targets
Shatter confusion = have to have 3 clones out for max stacks for f2 (with the trait again on illusions 5)
Glamour traits are meh now. 2 stacks on an enchantment

Total: Ideal situation 14 stacks with full 3 clone f2 shatter=3 skills

Now look at the Engineer (Just for comparison)

Pry bar is instant 5 stacks
With perplexity runes = interrupt pull plus prybar = 10 stacks instant.
Total of 2 skill + rune, effortless

I would totally agree with you if duelist has that 100% finisher + chaos storm, null field, feedback combo as before.

So in short the problem is that The application could be high if the process is RELIABLE. and I agree with your point the duration is too short for it even to matter.

This. Also glamour will only stack one confusion because in reality your opponent will only exit your glamour, not enter it. Unless you dedicated 2 traits in illusions (adept and master) to glamour trait, then you get 2 confusions (one for initial blind upon cast and one for exit). However that initial blind on cast are kind of counter-intuitive to confusion upon entering glamour, so it is unlikely to stack 3 confusions on glamour.

Which kind of reminds me, this maybe fuzzy in everyone’s mind but do you guys remember fighting Diplomat Tarban, a bounty in Brisban Wildlands? If I remember correctly he’s glamour stacks 5 confusion on initial cast/entering/exiting and hitting his chaos armor stacks 3 confusion. Maybe we need to tone down on the glamour but would be cool and punishing to WvW zerg if our glamour can cause 4 confusions. And this can make confusion application more useful in chaos armor.

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Posted by: Esplen.3940

Esplen.3940

Except, Feedback isn’t a ground target.

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Posted by: Sethren.8472

Sethren.8472

Mesmers have been forced into a support role by ANet’s nerfs. We have been forced to bend over backwards to find a spec that can actually survive + kill, and when we do, someone cries OP, and we get nerfed. Then, it’s back to square one again. Being forced into one particular play style (support) is absolutely counter to the principle ANet built GW2 on. It’s the same principle that was used to throw out the trinity class system, and yet ANet sees no problem with forcing the mesmer into a singular role. Baffling how the Devs don’t see that. Maybe looking at actual play (re: playing one) rather than a spreadsheet might help? I dunno.

It’s to the point that they might as well give Veil to Thieves, give Portal to Eles, and just scrap the profession all together. I’m sorry to be so heavily negative about it, but it’s true. Maybe get their stuff together, figure out what the heck they’re doing, and rerelease the class later.

Waiting to see how the Mesmer Skillbar goes. I’m highly skeptical/cynical about it doing any good though.

Chimeras Family – Korvaseth (Mes), Sethren (Necro)
Sea of Sorrows

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Posted by: Me Games Ma.8426

Me Games Ma.8426

Mesmers have been forced into a support role by ANet’s nerfs. We have been forced to bend over backwards to find a spec that can actually survive + kill, and when we do, someone cries OP, and we get nerfed. Then, it’s back to square one again. Being forced into one particular play style (support) is absolutely counter to the principle ANet built GW2 on. It’s the same principle that was used to throw out the trinity class system, and yet ANet sees no problem with forcing the mesmer into a singular role. Baffling how the Devs don’t see that. Maybe looking at actual play (re: playing one) rather than a spreadsheet might help? I dunno.

It’s to the point that they might as well give Veil to Thieves, give Portal to Eles, and just scrap the profession all together. I’m sorry to be so heavily negative about it, but it’s true. Maybe get their stuff together, figure out what the heck they’re doing, and rerelease the class later.

Waiting to see how the Mesmer Skillbar goes. I’m highly skeptical/cynical about it doing any good though.

100% agreement… :<

Mindblossom – Sylvari – Mesmer – Jumpingpuzzler
Equinox [EqnX]
Riverside[DE]

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Posted by: Sethren.8472

Sethren.8472

In perusing the Profession Balance forums, I have seen the Mesmer suggestions. Usually someone will immediately say the suggestion would be OP (I’ve been guilty of this as well). A thought occurred to me: have we become so conditioned over the last 2 years to expect inferior gameplay that we now consider anything that would bring us up to the level of the other classes automatically OP? It’s like we’re scared to be good. We want to be, but we’ve become hesitant about it due to being hit with the nerf hammer so many times. What do you all think?

On a side note: I’m waiting for the Mesmer Skillbar, but I’m considering joining the “reroll” crowd – as heartbreaking as it is to do so. I was playing an alt guardian last night, and I could murder stuff quickly. I didn’t have that feeling of being weak and impotent as a class. It was a painful moment of clarity. I don’t know if I will yet, but the consideration is on the table. How many of you are considering (or have done) the same?

Chimeras Family – Korvaseth (Mes), Sethren (Necro)
Sea of Sorrows

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Posted by: MSFone.3026

MSFone.3026

In perusing the Profession Balance forums, I have seen the Mesmer suggestions. Usually someone will immediately say the suggestion would be OP (I’ve been guilty of this as well). A thought occurred to me: have we become so conditioned over the last 2 years to expect inferior gameplay that we now consider anything that would bring us up to the level of the other classes automatically OP? It’s like we’re scared to be good. We want to be, but we’ve become hesitant about it due to being hit with the nerf hammer so many times. What do you all think?

On a side note: I’m waiting for the Mesmer Skillbar, but I’m considering joining the “reroll” crowd – as heartbreaking as it is to do so. I was playing an alt guardian last night, and I could murder stuff quickly. I didn’t have that feeling of being weak and impotent as a class. It was a painful moment of clarity. I don’t know if I will yet, but the consideration is on the table. How many of you are considering (or have done) the same?

Sadly I have considered going ele on and off recently. Haven’t actually done it yet, instead just taking a mild break and doing achievements, finishing personal story and stuff. But ya I think once I finish that and if Mesmer is still nerfed I’ll probably just quit rather than reroll.

Really we all know what is going to happen: We aren’t going to get any real buffs that we need, we are going to get some changes that don’t really change much, and some things will be “toned down.” It will be more of the same of the last two years. We all hope we are wrong, but we all know this is the case. Unless Anet hired some new people, why expect anything different from the geniuses who have done everything else?

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Posted by: Sethren.8472

Sethren.8472

In perusing the Profession Balance forums, I have seen the Mesmer suggestions. Usually someone will immediately say the suggestion would be OP (I’ve been guilty of this as well). A thought occurred to me: have we become so conditioned over the last 2 years to expect inferior gameplay that we now consider anything that would bring us up to the level of the other classes automatically OP? It’s like we’re scared to be good. We want to be, but we’ve become hesitant about it due to being hit with the nerf hammer so many times. What do you all think?

On a side note: I’m waiting for the Mesmer Skillbar, but I’m considering joining the “reroll” crowd – as heartbreaking as it is to do so. I was playing an alt guardian last night, and I could murder stuff quickly. I didn’t have that feeling of being weak and impotent as a class. It was a painful moment of clarity. I don’t know if I will yet, but the consideration is on the table. How many of you are considering (or have done) the same?

Sadly I have considered going ele on and off recently. Haven’t actually done it yet, instead just taking a mild break and doing achievements, finishing personal story and stuff. But ya I think once I finish that and if Mesmer is still nerfed I’ll probably just quit rather than reroll.

Really we all know what is going to happen: We aren’t going to get any real buffs that we need, we are going to get some changes that don’t really change much, and some things will be “toned down.” It will be more of the same of the last two years. We all hope we are wrong, but we all know this is the case. Unless Anet hired some new people, why expect anything different from the geniuses who have done everything else?

You’re probably right (as much as the optimist in me hates to admit it). We’ll be sitting here on pins and needles hoping for the best, and then ANet will hand out more of the same.

If that turns out to be the case, that will be the final blow on playing a Mesmer as my main. I will have reached the point where enough is enough. He would be parked in a city for crafting purposes, and that’d be that. My Guardian/Necro would take his place as main.

Chimeras Family – Korvaseth (Mes), Sethren (Necro)
Sea of Sorrows

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Posted by: Esplen.3940

Esplen.3940

If that turns out to be the case, that will be the final blow on playing a Mesmer as my main. I will have reached the point where enough is enough. He would be parked in a city for crafting purposes, and that’d be that. My Guardian/Necro would take his place as main.

I don’t think I can ever do that. I’ll just be a sucky person who presses a ton of buttons and supports the group while not doing a lot. Woooo…

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Posted by: Coulter.2315

Coulter.2315

Why do you think Mesmer has been forced into a support role when the only Mesmers in tPvP are Shatter?

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Posted by: Esplen.3940

Esplen.3940

Why do you think Mesmer has been forced into a support role when the only Mesmers in tPvP are Shatter?

PvE: Reliant on damage from Phantasms (easily cleaved) to maintain equivalent dps with other professions even while stacking pure damage. Main uses of Mesmer: Projectile Destruction, Projectile Reflection, Time Warp, Portal. (All SUPPORT)

WvW Big/Medium Group: Lack of easy AoE makes tagging near impossible. Requires Greatsword to tag. Lack of mobility trait/signet and access to Swiftness is near non-existent without the use of Focus. Focus Curtain is still suffering from band-aid patch that makes keeping up hard. Main uses of Mesmer: Veil, Portal.

WvW Small Group: Shatter or Support are useful here. Can easily move around the battlefield while in combat and assist allies or debilitate enemies. Builds have more flexibility here. Main uses of Mesmer: Boon sharing (SUPPORT), or Shatter (Damage).

WvW Solo/Duo/Trio Group: Shatter or PU. Can easily disorient enemies (PU) and frustrate opponents. Access to large bursts (Shatter) and sticks close to enemies. Suffers from lack of hard-chasing abilities along with the occasional running away being difficult. Main uses of Mesmer: Survival or burst damage.

sPvP: Shatter or PU. See: WvW Solo/Duo/Trio. Note: PU is less useful in an organized team than Shatter. Also: Portal. (SUPPORT, and in some cases finisher/survival)

The only time Mesmer is really brought for their damage is in high burst scenario’s or 1v1’s, and even then they’re not good vs 1v1 PvE.

The rest, and majority, of the time, a Mesmer is brought for the utility they can bring. Feedback is easier to survive with than Wall of Reflection due to it being a bubble. Wardens can be staggered and then the party does not need to roll vs projectile attacks (assuming Wardens do not get cleaved). Time Warp provides a littles less than a 33% damage increase to the rest of the party on a 4.7% uptime, most Mesmers do not spam it, making it an even lower uptime.

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Posted by: KaioShin.4310

KaioShin.4310

My last hope is that the supposed “new beginning for PvP” claimed for the feature patch involves seperating PvP from PvE balance.

I don’t give a kitten about PvP, from what I hear the Mesmer is fine there, but in PvE we are kitten and it’ll NEVER get fixed until they stop looking at PvP at the same time. It’s completely pointless to think about specific ways to fix the class until they seperate the game mode balance. Nothing will happen otherwise.

Before Living Story season 2 I took a break of over a year from the game. It’s insane that the Mesmer still has the same fundamental gameplay flaws he had in beta. That’s just not acceptable.

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Posted by: Esplen.3940

Esplen.3940

Actually, we have more now.

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Posted by: chaosmike.8405

chaosmike.8405

aha anet does this a lot…

confusion, clearly a mesmer condition, what do they do?

give warriors: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Distracting_Strikes

aegis, clearly a guardian boon, what do they do?

give engineers: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armor_Mods

it’s kind of funny actually. at least necros are the masters of their own fear condition. And even that’s debatable because “fear me” is a more potent AoE fear skill. lol