Guild Wars 2

FTW. 15k health is plenty with GS imo. Who else runs a glass cannon mes? This is the most fun ive ever had in an MMO! Huge thanks to Anet for fixing zerker for us =)

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Lazy-Kai-s-guide-to-PvE/first#post850116

Any more questions? ^^

Kaiyanwan.8521:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Lazy-Kai-s-guide-to-PvE/first#post850116

Any more questions? ^^

I use Empowered Illusions over GS training, i find that the bonus damage my zerker does outweighs the 50 power.

Also i use Scholar on all my gear, and 5% to crit in my GS. (once you are over 201% damage on crits, 1% to crit > 1% damage)

I think you should not underestimate this part of Greatsword Training:

Reduces recharge of greatsword skills by 20%.

Variations are OK, I change the setup for myself fairly often ^^…

This is my setup, with the exception of being able to show the 5% crit on my weapons

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mmmz0mM9MMbLTmMbLTmGG9MxzcMazcq8070V7kNb70V

tqhx.2190:

This is my setup, with the exception of being able to show the 5% crit on my weapons

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mmmz0mM9MMbLTmMbLTmGG9MxzcMazcq8070V7kNb70V

I dont really need the reduction in skills, as the only skill it helps with really is Mirror Blade(it doesnt seem to shorten my izerker CD). With the Clone on dodge i never have a shortage of clones up for my Wracks.

That’s not the point. It stacks multiplicatively with the other illusion cooldown trait and increases the number of Mirror Blades you can pop out (nevermind iBerserkers) by a huge amount.

Mirror Blade every 4.8 seconds is awesome Might, Vuln, and raw damage. The power is not bad, too.

tqhx.2190:

tqhx.2190:

This is my setup, with the exception of being able to show the 5% crit on my weapons

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mmmz0mM9MMbLTmMbLTmGG9MxzcMazcq8070V7kNb70V

I dont really need the reduction in skills, as the only skill it helps with really is Mirror Blade(it doesnt seem to shorten my izerker CD). With the Clone on dodge i never have a shortage of clones up for my Wracks.

It doesn’t reflect in the tooltip, but it does affect your zerker. Cast it on training dummies with the trait and then without and watch the CD. Wonky tooltips ftl.

You are very wrong on the iZerker too… ^^

Kaiyanwan.8521:

You are very wrong on the iZerker too… ^^

Now I’m confused. Who are you referring to as incorrect? Have no clue what you mean here. xD

Dhampyr.2104:

tqhx.2190:

tqhx.2190:

This is my setup, with the exception of being able to show the 5% crit on my weapons

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#mmmz0mM9MMbLTmMbLTmGG9MxzcMazcq8070V7kNb70V

I dont really need the reduction in skills, as the only skill it helps with really is Mirror Blade(it doesnt seem to shorten my izerker CD). With the Clone on dodge i never have a shortage of clones up for my Wracks.

It doesn’t reflect in the tooltip, but it does affect your zerker. Cast it on training dummies with the trait and then without and watch the CD. Wonky tooltips ftl.

I originally tested it on the dummies and found no difference. I tend to stay ranged a lot so im not collecting the stacks from blade typically, and the raw damage of spatial surge at 900+ seems to offset well enough.

Ill test it out again though!

Dhampyr.2104:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

You are very wrong on the iZerker too… ^^

Now I’m confused. Who are you referring to as incorrect? Have no clue what you mean here. xD

Pretty sure he is saying im wrong that the GS skill reduction does not affect izerker CD. I have to test it again but last time i did it was no different, maybe 2 months ago

tqhx.2190:

I originally tested it on the dummies and found no difference. I tend to stay ranged a lot so im not collecting the stacks from blade typically, and the raw damage of spatial surge at 900+ seems to offset well enough.

Ill test it out again though!

It’s been awhile for me too, like maybe three weeks or so. I’m not on the game at the moment, but iirc, normal zerker CD (with the illusions line 20% redux) is like 16 sec. With the GS trait, the actual CD goes to 12ish.

Edit: So, CDs on zerker (again, iirc)
Standard, no traits – 20 sec
5 pt illusion trait – 16 sec
Plus GS redux trait – 12 sec

Dhampyr.2104:

tqhx.2190:

I originally tested it on the dummies and found no difference. I tend to stay ranged a lot so im not collecting the stacks from blade typically, and the raw damage of spatial surge at 900+ seems to offset well enough.

Ill test it out again though!

It’s been awhile for me too, like maybe three weeks or so. I’m not on the game at the moment, but iirc, normal zerker CD (with the illusions line 20% redux) is like 16 sec. With the GS trait, the actual CD goes to 12ish.

Yea its stops at 12s CD all i play for spvp and WvW is my messy ^^if only it could go to 9s… x.x

Shattered Concentration > all… then again I only pvp

Yea I have that in my hybrid Shatter build.

Odaman.8359:

Shattered Concentration > all… then again I only pvp

Yeha i am speaking on behalf of PVE right now but when i do PVP that sounds like a solid talent. Ill be sure to switch to it when i PVP next time and see how i like it

Phantasm CDs seem to cap at 40% reduction.

kerona.3465:

Phantasm CDs seem to cap at 40% reduction.

Just out of curiosity, how would you bring them down lower than that? With the 5pt Illusions trait and the weapon 20% redux, I get it – is there another trait that I’m not thinking of at the moment?

I tried it again, definitely reducing. Probably better for sustained in PVE. Thanks!

Dhampyr.2104:

kerona.3465:

Phantasm CDs seem to cap at 40% reduction.

Just out of curiosity, how would you bring them down lower than that? With the 5pt Illusions trait and the weapon 20% redux, I get it – is there another trait that I’m not thinking of at the moment?

Probably some people think Phantasmal Haste affects the cd because of the way its worded in the tooltip. Instead it lowers the recharge time of their abilities by 20% . However, I understand the confusion this might cause.

Dhampyr.2104:

kerona.3465:

Phantasm CDs seem to cap at 40% reduction.

Just out of curiosity, how would you bring them down lower than that? With the 5pt Illusions trait and the weapon 20% redux, I get it – is there another trait that I’m not thinking of at the moment?

There is not. Maybe Phantasmal Haste causes some confusion, but this skill just lowers the phantasms own attack cooldown.

tqhx.2190:

I tried it again, definitely reducing. Probably better for sustained in PVE. Thanks!

Thanks for testing it and confirming! Haven’t been able to hop on the game yet tonight, was worried that I had been imagining things. xD

Dhampyr.2104:

tqhx.2190:

I tried it again, definitely reducing. Probably better for sustained in PVE. Thanks!

Thanks for testing it and confirming! Haven’t been able to hop on the game yet tonight, was worried that I had been imagining things. xD

Sorry for the confusion, I was in fact talking to tqhx in regards to the iZerker. ^^
Went offline after the comment as it was 3am over here, only to see that your post must have been some seconds faster than my answer this morning.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Dhampyr.2104:

tqhx.2190:

I tried it again, definitely reducing. Probably better for sustained in PVE. Thanks!

Thanks for testing it and confirming! Haven’t been able to hop on the game yet tonight, was worried that I had been imagining things. xD

Sorry for the confusion, I was in fact talking to tqhx in regards to the iZerker. ^^
Went offline after the comment as it was 3am over here, only to see that your post must have been some seconds faster than my answer this morning.

LOL thanks for the explanation – our electrons must have crossed paths. Glad we got it all figured out! ^.^

tqhx.2190:

FTW. 15k health is plenty with GS imo. Who else runs a glass cannon mes? This is the most fun ive ever had in an MMO! Huge thanks to Anet for fixing zerker for us =)

I am confused, when did they fix zerker for us? I didn’t witness any patches, and I find that my zerker often still misses 100% of his second attacks.

Nothing has been fixed as far as I can tell at this time and frankly I still don’t care for the reduced damage on zerker, but I am glad that it is a functional enough weapon that I can use it if I have to.

Edit: After further thought the damage on zerker is decent as it is, but it’s the missing that makes me feel as though it had a significant reduction.

Wise.8025:

tqhx.2190:

FTW. 15k health is plenty with GS imo. Who else runs a glass cannon mes? This is the most fun ive ever had in an MMO! Huge thanks to Anet for fixing zerker for us =)

I am confused, when did they fix zerker for us? I didn’t witness any patches, and I find that my zerker often still misses 100% of his second attacks.

Nothing has been fixed as far as I can tell at this time and frankly I still don’t care for the reduced damage on zerker, but I am glad that it is a functional enough weapon that I can use it if I have to.

Edit: After further thought the damage on zerker is decent as it is, but it’s the missing that makes me feel as though it had a significant reduction.

Weird, I can’t reproduce the misses that you mention here. I have yet to see my zerker miss at all on the dummies, and I watch for it.

it misses its second cycle of attacks when you leave it out atleast for me it out like you dont even see the Miss icon or anything at all it just hits air lol. it doesnt happen 100% of the time just randomly really

tqhx.2190:

once you are over 201% damage on crits, 1% to crit > 1% damage)

Not really, no, at least if you’re talking about sustained damage.

With 50% crit chance your crit damage multiplier must be > 300% for your sustained damage to benefit more from 1% extra to crit than from 1% extra to damage. And although it may seem counter-intuitive at first, the higher your crit chance, the more crit damage you need to keep 1% crit worth more than 1% damage.

Below is the formula in case you’re interested:

D – crit damage multiplier (2 for 200%, 2.01 for 201% etc.)
C – crit chance (0.5 for 50% etc.)

For crit chance increase to result in more damage than for the same % total damage increase the following must be true:

(D-1) * (1-C) > 1

Your formula is wrong, if youre using 1-C then the higher your crit % is the lower the output of the equation, which makes absolutely no sense,

for example if i have 250% crit damage, and 40% crit

(2.5-1)*(1-.4)= .9

If i were to have 250% bonus damage, and 50% to crit

(2.5-1)*(1-.5)=.75

back to the drawing board

Actually here is the proper formula, taken from GW2 Guru

•With 0 crit damage , 1 of crit rate will increase your long run damage by 0.5% (LRD = P * (1 + C * (0.5)) = P * (1 + C/2)

•With 50% crit damage , your crits do 200 damage (double damage), this means that once you get above 50% crit damage , 1 of crit will increase your long run damage by 1%

Lordryux.9785:

it misses its second cycle of attacks when you leave it out atleast for me it out like you dont even see the Miss icon or anything at all it just hits air lol. it doesnt happen 100% of the time just randomly really

There is a bug where sometimes the numbers dont display, but the damage is being done. Its been acknowledged by Anet and tested confirmed. That said, i very rarely dont get the HUD,

Sigh.

Your sustained damage is

power * base * ( (1-C) + C*D ) / target armor

power, base damage and target armor are constant in the comparison, so don’t need to be taken into the account.

So we have

1-C + C*D. Which is 1 + C * (D-1)

A ‘p’ percent increase in damage results in (1+p) * ( 1 + C*(D-1) )
A ‘p’ percent increase in critical chance results in 1 + (C + p)*(D-1)

Now let’s see when the former is greater than the latter

1 + (C + p)(D-1) > (1+p) * ( 1 + C(D-1) )

1 + C * (D-1) + p * (D-1) > 1 + C*(D-1) + p * ( 1 + C*(D-1) )

p * (D-1) > p * ( 1 + C*(D-1) )

(D-1) > 1 + C*(D-1)

(D-1) – C*(D-1) > 1

(D-1) * (1-C) > 1

Aleph Naught.9034:

Sigh.

Your sustained damage is

power * base * ( (1-C) + C*D ) / target armor

power, base damage and target armor are constant in the comparison, so don’t need to be taken into the account.

So we have

1-C + C*D. Which is 1 + C * (D-1)

A ‘p’ percent increase in damage results in (1+p) * ( 1 + C*(D-1) )
A ‘p’ percent increase in critical chance results in 1 + (C + p)*(D-1)

Now let’s see when the former is greater than the latter

1 + (C + p)(D-1) > (1+p) * ( 1 + C(D-1) )

1 + C * (D-1) + p * (D-1) > 1 + C*(D-1) + p * ( 1 + C*(D-1) )

p * (D-1) > p * ( 1 + C*(D-1) )

(D-1) > 1 + C*(D-1)

(D-1) – C*(D-1) > 1

(D-1) * (1-C) > 1

Lol that makes no sense at all buddy, the formula is

(LRD = P * (1 + C * (0.5)) = P * (1 + C/2)

That is the long term damage formula, and its common sense that at 200% to crit, 1% more chance to crit = 1% more overall damage. Its an extremely basic concept… Also your formula literally has the effectiveness of crit scaling down as it goes up, when 1% to crit is 1% to crit…

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/75713-long-run-damage-calculation-math-is-fun/

Mate, simply saying “lol you’re wrong buddy” when presented with maths sure is a nice way to embarrass oneself.

Let’s start again. Baby steps.

(1-C) percent of the time you’ll do power * base / target_armor damage

C percent of the time you’ll do power * base * D / target_armor damage

D is not the number from the tooltip, it’s 1.5 + the_number_from_tooltip / 100, which is your total crit damage multiplier

So, your sustained damage is:

(1-C) * power * base / armor + C * D * power * base / armor

which is ( 1 – C + C * D ) * power * base / armor

Now re-read my previous post.

Aleph Naught.9034:

Mate, simply saying “lol you’re wrong buddy” when presented with maths sure is a nice way to embarrass oneself.

Let’s start again. Baby steps.

(1-C) percent of the time you’ll do power * base / target_armor damage

C percent of the time you’ll do power * base * D / target_armor damage

D is not the number from the tooltip, it’s 1.5 + the_number_from_tooltip / 100, which is your total crit damage multiplier

So, your sustained damage is:

(1-C) * power * base / armor + C * D * power * base / armor

which is ( 1 – C + C * D ) * power * base / armor

Now re-read my previous post.

I read your post, and youre wrong, theres no other way to put it. The entire math behind damage and a very nice spreadsheet is right here

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/75713-long-run-damage-calculation-math-is-fun/

SO im not just saying “youre wrong lol!” and leaving it at that, im supplying you with the correct math

Also im not sure how you are getting all crazy about this, when if you do 200% damage when critting, then 1% to crit would equal a 1% increase in damage. Its a much simpler equation than you are claiming it to be.

Im not going to argue with you any more, you made your point, as incorrect as it is, and if someone chooses to believe you, that is their own mistake. You arent going to prove to me that the sky isnt blue

Want more maths, how about a basic crit vs damage increase formula?

(((CD*.5)/100) x (CC/100))x100=DI%

Where CD is critical damage, CC is critical chance, and DI is damage increase.

So with 201% CD, 1% CC is equal to

(((201*.5)/100)x(1/100))=1.005% increase in overall damage

Yeah, arguing about math with people who don’t understand it is pointless. My calculations are correct, the calculations of the guy whose page you linked are also correct, I’m not sure where you were getting with saying they contradicted each other. So, let’s take a formula from his page, shall we:

LRD = P * (1 + C * (0.5 + D))

(he’s using tooltip value for D, fine, let’s stick with it).

So, for simplicity let’s assume 50% crit chance and extra 50% crit damage.

LRD = P * (1 + 0.5 * (0.5 + 0.5)) = 1.5 * P

+1% crit chance:
LRD = P * (1 + 0.51 * (0.5 + 0.5)) = 1.51 * P

+1% damage:
LRD = 1.01 * P * (1 + 0.50 * (0.5 + 0.5)) = 1.5 * P * 1.01 = 1.515 * P

Now I wonder which is greater, 1.515 or 1.51…

Another example:

70% crit chance, 50% crit damage

LRD = P * (1 + 0.7 * (0.5 + 0.5)) = 1.7 * P

+1% crit chance:
LRD = P * (1 + 0.71 * (0.5 + 0.5)) = 1.71 * P

+1% damage:
LRD = 1.01 * P * (1 + 0.7 * (0.5 + 0.5)) = 1.7 * P * 1.01 = 1.717 * P

Wow, 1% damage is again better than 1% crit.

Math is hard.

Aleph Naught.9034:

Yeah, arguing about math with people who don’t understand it is pointless. My calculations are correct, the calculations of the guy whose page you linked are also correct, I’m not sure where you were getting with saying they contradicted each other. So, let’s take a formula from his page, shall we:

LRD = P * (1 + C * (0.5 + D))

(he’s using tooltip value for D, fine, let’s stick with it).

So, for simplicity let’s assume 50% crit chance and extra 50% crit damage.

LRD = P * (1 + 0.5 * (0.5 + 0.5)) = 1.5 * P

+1% crit chance:
LRD = P * (1 + 0.51 * (0.5 + 0.5)) = 1.51 * P

+1% damage:
LRD = 1.01 * P * (1 + 0.50 * (0.5 + 0.5)) = 1.5 * P * 1.01 = 1.515 * P

Now I wonder which is greater, 1.515 or 1.51…

Another example:

70% crit chance, 50% crit damage

LRD = P * (1 + 0.7 * (0.5 + 0.5)) = 1.7 * P

+1% crit chance:
LRD = P * (1 + 0.71 * (0.5 + 0.5)) = 1.71 * P

+1% damage:
LRD = 1.01 * P * (1 + 0.7 * (0.5 + 0.5)) = 1.7 * P * 1.01 = 1.717 * P

Wow, 1% damage is again better than 1% crit.

Math is hard.

Apparently math is hard, FOR YOU

If you say that guys math is correct, he is the one im GETTING MY MATH FROM

THIS IS HIS QUOTE

“•With 0 crit damage , 1 of crit rate will increase your long run damage by 0.5% (LRD = P * (1 + C * (0.5)) = P * (1 + C/2)

•With 50% crit damage , your crits do 200 damage (double damage), this means that once you get above 50% crit damage , 1 of crit will increase your long run damage by 1%
"

I said at over 200% crit damage, 1% to crit is > 1% to damage, YOU said im wrong. HIS MATH says im right, MY MATH which i posted above also says im right. Im pretty certain at this point you are the only person i know who does not agree that at over 200% critical damage, 1% of crit outweighs 1% of damage. Im done arguing with you.

EDIT: You also used 50% to crit in your formulas from him, im talking OVER 200% crit damage…

Calm down you Einsteins… This is too much for my brain.

tqhx, the formula you give is exactly the same, but it assumes that D is biased by 1.5.
D = P * (1 + C * (0.5 + Db))
1 + C * (D-1) , which is D = P*(1 + C * (D-1)), which is D = P*(1 + C * (Db -1+1.5))

Both formulas are correct, they just differ on range they are operating, ie C e<0,1>, D e<0,inf), Db e <1.5, inf). And as such, his derviation is correct.

Rogacz.9865:

tqhx, the formula you give is exactly the same, but it assumes that D is biased by 1.5.
D = P * (1 + C * (0.5 + Db))
1 + C * (D-1) , which is D = P*(1 + C * (D-1)), which is D = P*(1 + C * (Db -1+1.5))

Both formulas are correct, they just differ on range they are operating, ie C e<0,1>, D e<0,inf), Db e <1.5, inf). And as such, his derviation is correct.

(D-1) * (1-C) > 1

This is the formula that is not correct

His math doesn’t say you’re right, and you’re drawing wrong conclusions from it. nowhere on his page he says that with over 200% crit damage 1% crit is > 1% damage. He says with 200% crit damage 1% crit results in 1% increase in damage. Which is poorly worded.

1% increase in general means multiplying something by 1.01. So if you have a product of 2 values A * B, extra 1% will result in 1.01 * A * B.

What he’s referring to, and you can check that in my calculations above, is adding 0.01 to one of the multipliers, e.g

(A + 0.01) * B. Which kinda looks like a 1% increase, but strictly speaking is not.

You’re confusing adding 0.01 to a damage multiplier with increasing the damage by 1 percent.

So with 1% extra crit you get, e.g.(see above) (1.5+0.01) * P = 1.51 * P
But with extra 1% damage you get 1.01 * 1.5 * P = 1.515* P

Makes sense now?

Aleph Naught.9034:

His math doesn’t say you’re right, and you’re drawing wrong conclusions from it. nowhere on his page he says that with over 200% crit damage 1% crit is > 1% damage. He says with 200% crit damage 1% crit results in 1% increase in damage. Which is poorly worded.

1% increase in general means multiplying something by 1.01. So if you have a product of 2 values A * B, extra 1% will result in 1.01 * A * B.

What he’s referring to, and you can check that in my calculations above, is adding 0.01 to one of the multipliers, e.g

(A + 0.01) * B.

You’re confusing adding 0.01 to a damage multiplier with increasing the damage by 1 percent.

So with 1% extra crit you get, e.g.(see above) (1.5+0.01) * P = 1.51 * P
But with extra 1% damage you get 1.01 * 1.5 * P = 1.515* P

Makes sense now?

No because you are doing the calculation at 50% crit damage total, which is BASE

This is HIS QUOTE

“•With 50% crit damage , your crits do 200 damage (double damage), this means that once you get above 50% crit damage , 1 of crit will increase your long run damage by 1%”

Why don’t you do it yourself?

Here’s HIS formula:

LRD = P * (1 + C * (0.5 + D))

I’ve done the work for you already a couple of posts back, but since you prefer covering your eyes and ears and just repeating “you’re wrong” perhaps you could humor yourself by substituting a few numbers into it. Unless, of course, dealing with 4th grade math for two minutes is too hard for you.

Good luck.

Aleph Naught.9034:

Why don’t you do it yourself?

Here’s HIS formula:

LRD = P * (1 + C * (0.5 + D))

I’ve done the work for you already a couple of posts back, but since you prefer covering your eyes and ears and just repeating “you’re wrong” perhaps you could humor yourself by substituting a few numbers into it. Unless, of course, dealing with 4th grade math for two minutes is too hard for you.

Good luck.

No you didnt, you did the wrong work, which for anyone who lives in the real world accomplishes nothing. I am not simply repeating youre wrong, ive done the math above as well. Its far simpler than 4th grade math, but youre too thick to figure that one out

(D-1) * (1-C) > 1

This is the formula that is not correct

And what precisely is wrong with it?

Rogacz.9865:

(D-1) * (1-C) > 1

This is the formula that is not correct

And what precisely is wrong with it?

1-C is wrong, since the higher your crit chance it, the lower the output of the total formula.

Here is the formulas with MY numbers, and the result if i were to add 1% more damage, or 1% more crit;

I have 47% critical chance, and 89% bonus critical damage

SO

Original formula

(1+.47*(.5+.89))=1.65

To add 1% damage i simply multiple the output by 1.01, which = 1.6665

Now if i were to add 1% crit

(1+.48*(.5+.89))=1.6672

HMM which one is higher 1.6665 or 1.6672?