Guild Wars 2

tqhx.2190:

Aleph Naught.9034:

Why don’t you do it yourself?

Here’s HIS formula:

LRD = P * (1 + C * (0.5 + D))

I’ve done the work for you already a couple of posts back, but since you prefer covering your eyes and ears and just repeating “you’re wrong” perhaps you could humor yourself by substituting a few numbers into it. Unless, of course, dealing with 4th grade math for two minutes is too hard for you.

Good luck.

No you didnt, you did the wrong work, which for anyone who lives in the real world accomplishes nothing. I am not simply repeating youre wrong, ive done the math above as well. Its far simpler than 4th grade math, but youre too thick to figure that one out

Of course you’ve done it. Your word is proof enough.

Aleph Naught.9034:

tqhx.2190:

Aleph Naught.9034:

Why don’t you do it yourself?

Here’s HIS formula:

LRD = P * (1 + C * (0.5 + D))

I’ve done the work for you already a couple of posts back, but since you prefer covering your eyes and ears and just repeating “you’re wrong” perhaps you could humor yourself by substituting a few numbers into it. Unless, of course, dealing with 4th grade math for two minutes is too hard for you.

Good luck.

No you didnt, you did the wrong work, which for anyone who lives in the real world accomplishes nothing. I am not simply repeating youre wrong, ive done the math above as well. Its far simpler than 4th grade math, but youre too thick to figure that one out

Of course you’ve done it. Your word is proof enough.

Here is the formulas with MY numbers, and the result if i were to add 1% more damage, or 1% more crit;

I have 47% critical chance, and 89% bonus critical damage

SO

Original formula

(1+.47*(.5+.89))=1.65

To add 1% damage i simply multiple the output by 1.01, which = 1.6665

Now if i were to add 1% crit

(1+.48*(.5+.89))=1.6672

HMM which one is higher 1.6665 or 1.6672?

Here is the formulas with MY numbers, and the result if i were to add 1% more damage, or 1% more crit;

I have 47% critical chance, and 89% bonus critical damage

SO

Original formula

(1+.47*(.5+.89))=1.65

To add 1% damage i simply multiple the output by 1.01, which = 1.6665

Now if i were to add 1% crit

(1+.48*(.5+.89))=1.6672

HMM which one is higher 1.6665 or 1.6672?

Here is the formulas with MY numbers, and the result if i were to add 1% more damage, or 1% more crit;

I have 47% critical chance, and 89% bonus critical damage

SO

Original formula

(1+.47*(.5+.89))=1.65

To add 1% damage i simply multiple the output by 1.01, which = 1.6665

Now if i were to add 1% crit

(1+.48*(.5+.89))=1.6672

HMM which one is higher 1.6665 or 1.6672?

Here is the formulas with MY numbers, and the result if i were to add 1% more damage, or 1% more crit;

I have 47% critical chance, and 89% bonus critical damage

SO

Original formula

(1+.47*(.5+.89))=1.65

To add 1% damage i simply multiple the output by 1.01, which = 1.6665

Now if i were to add 1% crit

(1+.48*(.5+.89))=1.6672

HMM which one is higher 1.6665 or 1.6672?

Too many formulas with too many variables.

Assuming you have +50% crit damage (e.g. 100% crit damage total):

If you have 0% crit rate and 0 +dmg%, then 1% crit is worth 1% damage.

No one has 0% crit rate.

Typical crit rate for the builds we’re talking about is >30%.

At 30% crit rate it takes more than 1% crit rate to equal 1% damage.

It’s easy to observe if you plug in simple numbers rather than post pages upon pages of abstract formulas.

100 damage. 30% crit. 100% crit damage. 130 effective damage (100 * (1 + .3*1.0)).

+1% crit results in 131 damage. 1/130 = 0.77% marginal improvement in damage.
+1% damage results in 131.3 damage. 1.3/130 = 1% marginal improvement in damage.

1% > 0.77%

The more of a stat you have (like crit%), the more each additional crit% decays in value.

tqhx.2190:

Here is the formulas with MY numbers, and the result if i were to add 1% more damage, or 1% more crit;

I have 47% critical chance, and 89% bonus critical damage

SO

Original formula

(1+.47*(.5+.89))=1.65

No. It’s 1.6533

To add 1% damage i simply multiple the output by 1.01, which = 1.6665

No, 1.6533 * 1.01 = 1,669833

Now if i were to add 1% crit

(1+.48*(.5+.89))=1.6672

You got that one right.

HMM which one is higher 1.6665 or 1.6672?

So 1,669833 is greater than 1.6672. Next time use a calculator.

EasymodeX.4062:

Too many formulas with too many variables.

Assuming you have +50% crit damage (e.g. 100% crit damage total):

If you have 0% crit rate and 0 +dmg%, then 1% crit is worth 1% damage.

No one has 0% crit rate.

Typical crit rate for the builds we’re talking about is >30%.

At 30% crit rate it takes more than 1% crit rate to equal 1% damage.

It’s easy to observe if you plug in simple numbers rather than post pages upon pages of abstract formulas.

100 damage. 30% crit. 100% crit damage. 130 effective damage (100 * (1 + .3*1.0)).

+1% crit results in 131 damage. 1/130 = 0.77% marginal improvement in damage.
+1% damage results in 131.3 damage. 1.3/130 = 1% marginal improvement in damage.

1% > 0.77%

The more of a stat you have (like crit%), the more each additional crit% decays in value.

This IS the confirmed formula with MY stats plugged in

I have 47% critical chance, and 89% bonus critical damage

SO

Original formula

(1+.47*(.5+.89))=1.65

To add 1% damage i simply multiple the output by 1.01, which = 1.6665

Now if i were to add 1% crit

(1+.48*(.5+.89))=1.6672

HMM which one is higher 1.6665 or 1.6672?

Once again,

(1+.47*(.5+.89)) does not equal 1.65. Dear lord…

Aleph Naught.9034:

Once again,

(1+.47*(.5+.89)) does not equal 1.65. Dear lord…

Calm down, i posted that before i saw your reply

What output?

C e <0,1>. D e <1.5, inf>

At C = 1, equations is false. Meaning that x% increase in crit chance is higher then x% increase in damage. There is no damage increase beyond 100% crit chance. Correct?

At C = 0, equation is true for D-1 >1 <=> D>2. Meaning that x% increase in crit chance is then lower then x% increase in damage, when you have more then 50% crit damage.

Example 1:
P=1, C=0%, D=100%
D = P * (1 + 0 * (0.5 + 1)) = 1
Lets test 1% increase in crit chance.
D2 = P (1+ (C+1%))
D2 = P (1+0.01(0.5+1))=1 + 0.015
D2/D = 1.015/1 = 101.5%
Exactly as the formula predicted.

Example 2, at 50% crit chance. (2.5-1)*(1-0.5)>1, which is false, 1% increase in crit chance will result in less then 1% increase in damage.

D = P * (1 + C * (0.5 + D))
P=1, C=50%, D=100%
D=1*(1+0.5*(0.5+1))=1.75
Lets test 1% increase in crit chance.
D2 = P (1+ (C+1%))
D2 = P (1+0.51(0.5+1))=1.765
D2/D = 1.765/1.75 = 1.0086 ~ 100.86%, which is less then 1% increase in damage. Which means that exactly as the formula predicted, 1% increase in crit chance resulted in less then 1% increase in damage.

What this means is quite simple in layman terms. Crit chance effectiveness drops the more crit chance you have, since you can only crit so much. Unless you want to disagree with the fact that crit chance is useless beyond 100% chance?

EDIT: Some types

Im glad you jumped in Rogacz, i see it now. So if i were to only have 5% crit chance, to add 5% crit chance makes the multiple go from 1.0695 to 1.139, but adding 5% damage to 1.0695 only yields 1.122975 (im comparing sigil s) However where i sit, which is 42 crit without a sigil, the 5% damage is actually yielding a slightly better result.

So its really actually a matter of how much crit you have to determine which stat is more useful

SORRY for all the confusion and bickering, i was doing a far simpler calculation that i thought encompassed the cri% increase vs dam% increase =(, you can see in one of my earlier posts what i THOUGHT was the way to calculate the damage increase from crit

edit: guess ill swap my sigil out, thanks lol

Nps, as Aleph said, its actually rather confusing the first time you try to chew into it.

Any chance we can start a new thread for math and take it there? This topic isn’t a math debate topic. Thanks!

Rounding seems convenient. This discussion proves that minor swings between crit%, crit damage, and raw % damage bonuses are pretty irrelevant.

Edit:

For the record, when comparing between two stat options, you need to factor in the concept that you already have a baseline amount of said stats … and that for most stats, more of the same becomes less efficient.

Heh we just finished with the math, get excited for GC mesmers!

tqhx.2190:

Heh we just finished with the math, get excited for GC mesmers!

My brain killed itself after reading this thread. What’s GC again? Let’s start fresh. I came here because this topic was about GS mesmers.

I was going to post footage I recorded of iZerker missing his second round of attacks, but upon review it seems that there was damage done just not significant and the damage numbers never appeared above the golem.

Damage is still inconsistent though. Sometimes I hit for 1k and sometimes I hit for 4k. Staff phantasm is far more reliable but does not provide any aoe output. I guess our damage is not suppose to be huge with phantasms and we’re really just supposed to stick to the shatters for our burst.

My problem with using full zerker GS phantasm to burst is the same as my issue with all illusions. When you want to dps you spec heavily into power and crit, but when you do that your illusions have 500ish health and anything/everything will kill them. I still often find them dying before getting off their first strike, and almost always before their second strike.

I’m ok with “500 health” phantasms, as long as they are putting out appropriate damage.

I don’t expect them to survive long, so I just shatter them. With a 30/30 glass megacannon spec, I nailed some underlevel folks in WvW last night for 8.3k iBerserkers and 6.7k MW (x1s).

Can’t summon them in the middle of pulsing AOE, but in most cases they will survive long enough to get their first shot off, which is all that you really need.

Don’t forget to factor the “On-Crit” bonuses! Put that in your formulas. ;p

just curious for all the GS mesmers, what weapons are you using for swap set and why?

Wise.8025:

tqhx.2190:

Heh we just finished with the math, get excited for GC mesmers!

My brain killed itself after reading this thread. What’s GC again? Let’s start fresh. I came here because this topic was about GS mesmers.

I was going to post footage I recorded of iZerker missing his second round of attacks, but upon review it seems that there was damage done just not significant and the damage numbers never appeared above the golem.

Damage is still inconsistent though. Sometimes I hit for 1k and sometimes I hit for 4k. Staff phantasm is far more reliable but does not provide any aoe output. I guess our damage is not suppose to be huge with phantasms and we’re really just supposed to stick to the shatters for our burst.

My problem with using full zerker GS phantasm to burst is the same as my issue with all illusions. When you want to dps you spec heavily into power and crit, but when you do that your illusions have 500ish health and anything/everything will kill them. I still often find them dying before getting off their first strike, and almost always before their second strike.

GC is Glass Cannon. I pretty much throw out illusions and shatter them instantly, and my phantasms seem to be able to stay alive ok half the time when im waiting for cooldowns. Illusionary defender seems to still have some survival, and if you use mirror images they tend to hang out with you, so you can always prop them up and put them on hold kittenter fodder

rchu.8945:

just curious for all the GS mesmers, what weapons are you using for swap set and why?

Sword/Pistol, they also have pretty amazing DPS. If i hop into WVW i tend to throw on my vitality and toughness and im not such a glass cannon anymore, and my offset is usually a staff for survival tactics such as blink and chaos armor

@Aleph you are awesome. Math FTW.

I run a 10/30/0/0/30 GC build for PvE. Mainly because Blurred Frenzy > GS mastery. When you’re a GC you need every tool to dodge and mitigate damage. A shorted BF CD is a god send. Especially in high level fractals. Mesmer is one of the few classes that can get away with no agony resist gear if they are skilled due to Distortion+Blurred Frenzy.

Also, for swap I use:

Sword (sigil of force (5% dmg)) / Focus (sigil of battle(3 stacks of might on swap))

Main GS (sigil of perception) Debating if I should swap this with the power stacking one, need to maths it

iWarden is awesome and can really save your kitten due to it’s reflect attack. It’s also very high damage, I personally prefer it to pistol as I feel that the iDuelist takes too long to cast and the Magic Bullet skill isn’t as useful as the Focus 4 skill.

Focus 4 gives swiftness, a combo field, a cripple, interrupt, and a grouping skill. Run with a bunch of melee? Drop your focus 4 on a wall and slam all the mobs into it for easy AOE grouping. Need to pull a mob away from you? Focus 4 to slow then pull away. Can also affect more mobs than Pistol 5.

I’ve run that full glass spec before and, as with all specs, I found it to have its ups and downs. The direct damage is significant, the survivability felt a little too low even with staff. Also the full glass build has no innate condition removal so unless I was running Prayer to Kormir (or whatever it’s called) or null field, I found that I had a hell of a time with eles, necros, condition mesmers, basically anything with conditions.

It’s pretty cool to be able to evaporate someone with Mind Wrack though.

tqhx.2190:

SORRY for all the confusion and bickering, i was doing a far simpler calculation that i thought encompassed the cri% increase vs dam% increase =(, you can see in one of my earlier posts what i THOUGHT was the way to calculate the damage increase from crit

No problem mate, as I said the conclusion about crit chance/crit damage getting devalued as the crit chance gets higher may seem counter-intuitive. ;>

And kudos for coming forward and apologizing, this is something you don’t see too often! Sorry for having been more sarcastic in my posts than I probably should have been.

Someone mind explaining what all that maths was about? I’m allergic to large amounts of numbers and parenthesis.

I use sword/focus in dungeons as my swap, and sceptre/focus in WvW as sword 3 fails pretty constantly for whatever reason and when it does range becomes a major issue with weapon swap CD for me.

kerona.3465:

Someone mind explaining what all that maths was about? I’m allergic to large amounts of numbers and parenthesis.

I use sword/focus in dungeons as my swap, and sceptre/focus in WvW as sword 3 fails pretty constantly for whatever reason and when it does range becomes a major issue with weapon swap CD for me.

Basically unless you have under 10% to crit, +5% damage sigil is a better option than +5% crit sigil.

(im not sure its exactly 10% but its pretty low, if youre geared zerker the +% damage will always be better)

Conceptually the point is that spiking too much of the same stat is inefficient.

It’s better to balance crit%, crit damage, and raw %damage than to spike any of those.

Power is a bit different since it starts off way better than any of those.

rchu.8945:

just curious for all the GS mesmers, what weapons are you using for swap set and why?

In pvp – Sword/focus. Focus 4 is a strictly better disable (knockdown/stun) and a position manipulator than pistol 5. Longer range (900 cast range on both, but curtains pull is ~600 range, making the effective range of your stun/yank/knockdown/interrupt 1500 range) and a free escape/kill based on the geography (walls, cliffs) on where you’re fighting. The swiftness/slow doesn’t even matter. You should not use this ability for swiftness/slow 99% of the time in combat.

Then we come to pistol 4 vs focus 5. This is the berserker shatter thread, so pistol is just not good. The power coefficient is terrible on pistol 4, and if you’re running the spec in the title, you don’t have the pistol trait to abuse the finisher bug (if it still exists?) Pistol is better for condition or low power builds, but focus scales so much better with a power/crit build.

Focus 5 takes time to learn to use, but you can either use it as a deterrent to entering an area, force someone out of an area, or you can learn to combo with either sword 3, focus 4, or both. One you learn yank ranges on focus 4, stopping what someone is trying to do and forcing them to be yanked into a focus 5 while rooted with a sword 3 and an optional sword 2 will not only stop them from what they’re trying to do, but it forces them to burn one or two utilities.

Offensively and defensively, focus takes more work but gets far more results than pistol.

Yes. I use the exact same traits build with GS / Staff.

Open all battles with GS#2, then GS#4, follow by mirror image and 2 dodges. 6 illusions mind wrack.

If the opponent is not dead, swap to staff, pop Staff#5 follow by 2 and 3 then dodge twice if you can, mind wrack again.

Sekin.7803:

6 illusions mind wrack.

What.

kerona.3465:

Sekin.7803:

6 illusions mind wrack.

What.

I have no idea…

Kaiyanwan.8521:

kerona.3465:

Sekin.7803:

6 illusions mind wrack.

What.

I have no idea…

Me either, but I bet it leads to QQ on the sPvP threads.

Pinko.2076:

rchu.8945:

just curious for all the GS mesmers, what weapons are you using for swap set and why?

In pvp – Sword/focus. Focus 4 is a strictly better disable (knockdown/stun) and a position manipulator than pistol 5. Longer range (900 cast range on both, but curtains pull is ~600 range, making the effective range of your stun/yank/knockdown/interrupt 1500 range) and a free escape/kill based on the geography (walls, cliffs) on where you’re fighting. The swiftness/slow doesn’t even matter. You should not use this ability for swiftness/slow 99% of the time in combat.

Then we come to pistol 4 vs focus 5. This is the berserker shatter thread, so pistol is just not good. The power coefficient is terrible on pistol 4, and if you’re running the spec in the title, you don’t have the pistol trait to abuse the finisher bug (if it still exists?) Pistol is better for condition or low power builds, but focus scales so much better with a power/crit build.

Focus 5 takes time to learn to use, but you can either use it as a deterrent to entering an area, force someone out of an area, or you can learn to combo with either sword 3, focus 4, or both. One you learn yank ranges on focus 4, stopping what someone is trying to do and forcing them to be yanked into a focus 5 while rooted with a sword 3 and an optional sword 2 will not only stop them from what they’re trying to do, but it forces them to burn one or two utilities.

Offensively and defensively, focus takes more work but gets far more results than pistol.

hi Pinko,

thanks for the reply, it’s great that you explained it so well, because it seems most people just think sword/focus is not great and mostly used for swiftness buff.

Currently I am experimenting GS with staff, but some people are telling me the synergy is not there (but some claim it works well). I will invest in sword / focus if I am not effecive with the staff. Btw, what runes / sigils are you using on your weapons and armor?