Guild Wars 2

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/balancing-for-skill
Watched this today. Reminded me of all the iBezerker players on the forums lately.

Thoughts?

Good video. The thing is – the zerker is no near as powerful so I did not abuse it anyway, so for me cannot be used as foo strategy (still leveling). So I usually shatter it after first round. And I am one of those guys who like versatility so I always combine skills and change weapons regardless of power.

To be honest it seems most (but not all) of the complaints are towards the fact the skill is broken – izerker is practically brain dead when spawned. Granted, you should not rely on single skill and I cannot uderstand how one can center his/her build towards just izerker but maybe it is just me.

You are right about the whining though – the skill got too many tears. It is partially a problem with the community. Instead of making up strategies and builds on their own, a lot of ppl want a ‘perfect rotation/build/cookie-cutters’ strategies despite the fact that trait respec is cheap so you can actually experiment. And there are very few constructive posts. Much worse that GW1 community IMO but hopefully people with shake off the straightforward thinking at some point.

P.S. I do not want to offend anyone it appears a lot of players migrated from WoW and similar MMOs after years of playing it. I also played it for like 2 years and I see the common bad symptoms between the communities and raw-power-over-tactics-wins-all bullkitten.

While you may think like this initially, most of the outrage is towards the coding of Phantasms in general.

It’s not that players CANNOT adapt to another strategy; most Mesmer players I know are fairly competent and have moved onto other builds like Shatter-centric ones. At least, until the December 14 path when all this SUPPOSEDLY gets “fixed.”

The issue stems from the fact that the only phantasms that are at all effective currently are the ones that are not summoned right next to whatever your target is. Due to the way aggro works in GW2, a lot of the times these phantasms will immediately get 1-shot due to their low health.

The iBerserker damage nerf didn’t really bother me THAT much, all the damage on my GS build comes from Mirror Blade and shatters anyways. The issue is that ALL phantasms are affected by this issue, which renders several utilities and 1 skill on each weapon set essentially useless.

Basically, this was a hard nerf to Mesmer DPS across the board because even Shatter builds will allow a phantasm 1 attack cycle before popping it, thus this delay “bug” causes more delay before shatter damage, and that’s if the phantasm doesn’t die immediately after being summoned.

yup, this ^

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Very interesting video.
You should post this in the pvp section, many things they say in this video apply to pvp balancing, for all those cheesy Instagib combos this game offers: shatter combo, 100b, bs combo, pistol whip…
Pop cooldowns, smash your keyboard and watch your opponent health bar drop.

I just hope all of this gets nerfed to the ground, and that Anet proposes us something REALLY challenging and skillful…
Not something you can macro on your keyboard…

Prelude.3817:

Very interesting video.
You should post this in the pvp section, many things they say in this video apply to pvp balancing, for all those cheesy Instagib combos this game offers: shatter combo, 100b, bs combo, pistol whip…
Pop cooldowns, smash your keyboard and watch your opponent health bar drop.

I just hope all of this gets nerfed to the ground, and that Anet proposes us something REALLY challenging and skillful…
Not something you can macro on your keyboard…

its hard to come up with a system that requires actual ‘skill’ that isn’t simply how good you are at pressing buttons in the right order.

the only skill required in video games that isn’t how good you can press buttons are from games like grand strategy, and precision shooters. neither of which is gw2.

edit: in response to the video, i guess you could consider it a foo strat, but the problem is there isn’t enough depth in the game for there to be deeper and more skillful playstyles to learn.

that video is really aimed at more involved strategy games, which have lots of depth and a huge learning curve such at starcraft2 and dota type games.

Intresting video.

There’s case for and against GS being a foo strategy – iZerker is our most reliable ranged AoE attack, iWarden can’t reposition itself, blurred frenzy and mind wrack are best utilised at melee range.

I would argue that GS is a “learner’s weapon” it has a high output for low skill, and you seldom see it in the hands of a veteran player. But it does offer some unique utilities (Ranged snare, most reliable ranged AoE) that no other mesmer weapon presents.

Ultimately what the devs have done to GS isn’t to “balance” it to encourage people to seek new strategies they outright broke the associated phantasm; GS is a good mesmer learners weapon but in it’s current state not even learners need use it.

I would rather say. Shatter builds are a foo strat. You don’t need much skills for the basic Idea behind it. Mirror images dodge into the enemy hit F1 done. If enemy lives repeat.

Running mirror images and dodging into the enemy before shattering is definitely an easy but bad strat for bads. I agree with that. That’s an awful strategy. Even if you are going to run mirror images – which most good mesmers don’t these days – you would never want to use it that way.

wads.5730:

its hard to come up with a system that requires actual ‘skill’ that isn’t simply how good you are at pressing buttons in the right order.

the only skill required in video games that isn’t how good you can press buttons are from games like grand strategy, and precision shooters. neither of which is gw2.

Thanks for the response (everyone).

I actually disagree with this. Yes the game requires the simple task of pushing buttons, and firing them off in the right (or most rewarding) way is an effective, albeit simple approach to the game. However where the depth comes in is when you start asking when to push or not push the button, how to better use your environment, basically weeding out the game in every aspect past the superficial surface level to obtain that advantage over your opponent. Strategy games require skill, yes, but if you read the actual book on “playing to win” by David Sirlin, you’ll notice he explores the same depth of skill and strategy mostly within the confined of Street Fighter. There its a 2D platform of timing and button pushing, but the game is still played in some of the grandest professional gaming competitions world wide.

wads.5730:

its hard to come up with a system that requires actual ‘skill’ that isn’t simply how good you are at pressing buttons in the right order.

… any game, ever.

Yukishiro.8792:

Running mirror images and dodging into the enemy before shattering is definitely an easy but bad strat for bads. I agree with that. That’s an awful strategy. Even if you are going to run mirror images – which most good mesmers don’t these days – you would never want to use it that way.

I see one of those everytime I do sPvP. Then again I don’t do sPvP that much and still level 6.

You’ll find that the 1H sword has greater damage potential than the GS, but with an enormously larger risk. In this sense there’s some argument to call the GS a FOOS.

I think it may be more accurate to say that so many Mesmers use GS because it is a well-designed, very synergistic weapon in a setting where so many of our other choices don’t make any sense.

Consider:
-GS scales entirely off of Power/Crit, allowing you to focus your stats in a way that helps each of its abilities
-GS is designed to be a range weapon, and has two ways of helping you keep that range in the form of crippling phantasms and a knockback
-In being a ranged weapon, GS allows you to focus the stats it builds upon
-It had our most effective form of AoE attack outside of shatter in a class that sorely needs AoE
-The #1 attack, while ranged, is not a projectile; this allows it to bypass feedback and other defenses against ranged attacks

Compare that to that staff which cannot decide if it wants to be ranged (#1) of close combat (#4,#5), which scales off of Condition (#1) but also Power (#3). The staff is an awesome weapon with great defensive utility and a phantasm which has the greatest theoretical DPS, but few of its abilities really synergize.

Compare that to the Scepter which not only suffers from antagonistic skills (melee #2, range #3; power #1, condition #3) but which has skills that are also significantly less powerful than other weapons and it’s no wonder that so many Mesmers rely on their Greatswords.

To call the Greatsword a FOOS implies that there are alternatives which would be better if we crossed a certain skill threshold, it implies that our weapons were designed in a manner which rewards skill with greater effectiveness, albeit at a magnitude too low to push players to advance. This may be true if you choose to enter melee but for range combat the Greatsword isn’t just optimal for low skill, it’s the best weapon all around.

I use GS for one main reason. I’m half way to Sunrise. They could nerf it to hell and I’ll still use it.

The general rule of thumb for a First Order Optimal Strategy is it has to be something that becomes weak or useless in a higher skill environment. The mesmer GS isn’t this.

Mesmer GS has the most AoE potential of every mesmer weapon in the game. This alone qualifies it as filling a specific niche, but to take the argument against it being one one step further…

sPvP is done in teams of 8v8 or 5v5. Three points in play. Assuming a 5v5 game, and a bunker player or two on each team, you will generally see 4v4 or 3v3 in mid, or similar, based on the map and the events (not always, but we’re using an idealised situation to demonstrate something). Rarely will these players be bunched tight enough for Mind Stab to land reliable multi-target hits, leaving it as a single target attack… and it’s not that great at that, but was never meant to be. This leaves Mirror blade and iZerk. Mirror blade is still an amazing ability that hits hard and makes the mesmer hit harder. this just leaves iZerk. Zerk, even ignoring AoE, hits decently hard, and slows the target, letting the mesmer or mesmer’s ally’s close into melee.

iZerk is the ONLY ranged slow in the mesmer’s entire arsenal. Ill leap is unreliable, cannot be used as an initiate, and is only a 600 range skill.

The bug removes the damage, and the slow, preventing GS user mesmers from gap closing into mirror blade, to Ill leap/swap/blurred frenzy. Or any number of chasing/kiting tactics.

A FOO strategy (Such as chun-li kick spam. Ragna Inferno divider spam. Command grab spam of any form.) Is one that, while easy to do, does NOT produce results on par to something else. Mesmer GS DOES produce results on par, and that compliment other weapons such as sword, that rely on getting in close to the target.

What is a FOO strategy is warrior 100b combos that use a full set of utilities to perform. Or Pistol Whip spam with quickness. Neither of these produce results against skilled players, or effects that cannot be reproduced better by other options.

The balancing teams at ANet really need to watch that video and take it to heart. There is to much FOO going on all over the place.

I think people need to learn the difference between a crutch strategy and one of the only things that actually work for its role.

The greatsword is the only power based ranged option a Mesmer really has.
The iZerker is the only AoE and the closest thing to a gap closer the Mesmer has.

Its like removing all the stealth skills from Thief and saying that Thief players should learn to adapt instead of expecting their skills to work.

Ross Biddle.2367:

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/balancing-for-skill
Watched this today. Reminded me of all the iBezerker players on the forums lately.

Thoughts?

I thought it was an incredible video for it’s ability to so pithily and correctly describe such a fundamental problem for balancing games.

Yes, in many ways, iBerserker is a FOO “strategy”. However, that assumes there are SOO and TOO (etc) strategies to move up to. There aren’t. I’ve tried the other methods, including the shattercat builds, and my damage is so much lower than with (prenerf/prebug) GS that it’s pretty pathetic.

After all, shattering is something you apply in addition to phantasm damage. It’s not something that you can do to replace it. The SOO strategy is shattering, but without the base phantasm damage and without the basic features of the FOO strategy, it may not be a step up, but a step side-ways or down for more effort.

For instance, staff is pretty nice in PvP primarly because staff/2 is on a such short cooldown and increases the general target confusion in PvP. However, staff can’t stop a runner. That’s OK when your target wants to fight to the death. It’s not OK when they’re trying to get away — and in WvW, there are a LOT of runners.

Staff/2 that’s such a boon in PvP can cause issues in PvE by moving you in directions you’d prefer not to go. There are fights where you simply can’t use staff/2 at all because standing in a particular spot all the time is how the fight works. GS does not have that problem. You can use all it’s skills in almost any situation.

You can argue “that’s what the second weapon set is for”, but GS has a second weapon set, too. And, it could actually stop a runner with gs/4 and gs/5.

So, yeah, iBerserker was something of a “FOO” strategy and taking it away forces mesmers to at least temporarily use other methods. But, those other methods aren’t as effective as iBerserker.

It would perhaps be a foo strategy if we had another reasonable alternative for AoE.

Calling a bugged skill a foo strat…

The video was takling about how foo strats do a lot of damage to help out noobs… my auto attack on gs does better dps than the current izerker summon. So no… it’s not a foo strat.

Even when it is working properly, there are far easier classes to play which do far more damage than an izerker. 100b, kill shot, backstab etc. foo strats. High damage, but a good player won’t use them because they are countered too easily.

Mesmer as a whole is just not a foo friendly class… even when it’s working properly and by the same rules as the other classes (Seriously anet wth… dodge/blind/block rubbish needs to be applied to all classes or removed from mes. If you want to balance and/or nerf mes, do it properly.)

Yukishiro.8792:

Running mirror images and dodging into the enemy before shattering is definitely an easy but bad strat for bads. I agree with that. That’s an awful strategy. Even if you are going to run mirror images – which most good mesmers don’t these days – you would never want to use it that way.

Hitting mirror has its uses if you need extra on demand burst etc. I agree opening with it is not smart. Also I would not say a shatter build is a foo strat. What makes it any more or less foo than other builds? It all comes down to the individual player. A baddie shatter mes in GC gear is easy badges – espcially the ones that just cycle the rotation eithout even paying attention to the screen. Its the new D/D ele these days.

As everyone else said it is not a foo strategy. Heart seeker spam rogues and signet warriors would be a food strategy.

The spec I would consider a foo strategy for a mesmer would be the lazy phantasm build, or what ever it was called in spvp, where you summon three phantasms and run until they kill someone. It was a very low skill and easy countered strategy, but it hurt a lot of people who didn’t understand the class or the mechanic.

It is partially a problem with the community. Instead of making up strategies and builds on their own, a lot of ppl want a ‘perfect rotation/build/cookie-cutters’ strategies despite the fact that trait respec is cheap so you can actually experiment.

Except this is not the case.

Problem One:

Mesmer traits are all over the place and don’t seem to have any apparent synergy beyond a very shallow level compared to other professions such as elementalists. I can only think of a handful of builds with decent synergy, none of them provide condition or healing, the rest involve either stacking glass cannon stats while other profesions can add toughness, vitality, or healing to their mix for the same result, or abusing a fundamentally overpowered or bugged ability/mechanic..

Problem Two:

There is no gear unity in a given profession between most builds.

If you want to move from a power build to a condition one, you have upwards of 20-25g (and since the nerfs and DR to farming, rapidly rising) to invest in exotics off the TP, or dozens of hours to pour into CM or TA to get the condition gear, whereas other games, even big blue’s 10 million player monstrosity, have enough gear unity between specs that you can still test different specs.

Problem 2 is why after each balance patch you see people on profession forums looking for advice on re-rolls, or in the general forums or customer service forums saying they’re leaving and want a refund.

Whether ANet acknowledges it or not, the lack of gear unity coupled with patches which “break” the synergy of favorite builds results in a very long grind to replace gear.. and that’s only if you know what gear you need to get, because nobody wants to invest into gear that may or may not have a viable build.

This is why I always prefer damage or number of target adjustments to duration or fundamental mechanic adjustments, and why most MMO houses only adjust fundamental mechanics in an expansion where yanking someone’s gear out from under them doesn’t feel like complete robbery.

I am uncertain what this foo-strategy is going on about. That relying on phantasms is lazy or something negative to do? Uh, an integral part of Mesmer IS their reliance on the illusion gimmick. Phantasm builds are viable builds. iBeserker is a phantasm that can be and is a part of that build and strategy. There is nothing wrong with it.

It’s like saying shatter builds utilizing Mirror utility to create two-clones instantly is a ‘foo strategy.’ No, none of it is. These are parts of our class and certain builds rely upon certain strategies/illusions.

An obvious GW2’s SOO strategy would be the use of combo fields to your advantage. A newbie would never do it, but a skilled player will. Combo fields offer a slight gain for slight effort. Someone who uses them won’t outright destroy someone who doesn’t, but it is an advantage.

The video had a great example with AA missiles versus Flying Targets. Here’ another one from Aion. That game had auto-attacks. They were pretty good. You could do the easy newbie PvE with autos. If you could go through the entire game only using auto-attacks, it would be a true "FOO"lish strategy in the way the video discusses.

However, your character learns new skills. Using those skills appropriately makes things easier. That’s a SOO strategy (second-order). Spamming your DPS buttons over using auto attacks.

There’s more. You could sneak a skill into the auto-attack rotation by appropriately timing the use of the skill, substituting the animation for the skill for the auto-animation (or vice-versa — can’t recall detail, same result either way, though). That’s a Third-Order Optimal strategy for playing. Players who used that would perform much better than those who button-spammed.

IMHO, GW2’s skill tiering (player skill that is) is pretty kitten flat for many classes. Mesmer, thankfully, is one of the most tiered for player skill.

There are classes in GW2 that only have FOO strategies and can almost never improve their DPS no matter how they use their skills. That would be Rangers with lbow or sbow. Other than using a couple of utilities to magnify their auto-attack, the auto-attack of their bow is as good as it gets. Using a bow skill other than bow/1 will either lower the bow’s dps or do nothing to it.

I played ranger to 80 because I wanted to see what rangers were whining about. I shelved it because it’s a FOO class; ie. whines about ranger DPS are hogwash, but it’s such an absolute FOO class that the whining (in general) is more than justified. Thankfully, mesmer is NOT a FOO class. There’s a lot we can do to improve our performance over auto-attacking.

Deviija.7869:

I am uncertain what this foo-strategy is going on about. That relying on phantasms is lazy or something negative to do? Uh, an integral part of Mesmer IS their reliance on the illusion gimmick. Phantasm builds are viable builds. iBeserker is a phantasm that can be and is a part of that build and strategy. There is nothing wrong with it.

Most phantasm builds are not viable builds right now due to bugs + unbalanced blind/block/dodge rules on the multi hitting phantasm attacks.

No other class has their aoe/multi hitting attack not even occur at all due to a single dodge/blind/block.

The phantasms are VERY telegraphed summons making them easy to avoid them being created at all with a single dodge.

Then you have the 1second + delay bug before some of them will even attack (often leads to phantasms missing their entire attacks if they manage to be created and then live that long).

When they are working properly and by the same rules as everyone else they can be very good. When traited you can use Idualist to give off regen which procs protection adds a lot of survivabity (and he’ll typically stay by you unless he’s out of range of your target). If you’re going in for a burst vs many foes you can use izerker to do this as well. It’ll take some timing, but if you do it right, swap + Blurred frenzy will give you enough time to pick up that regen/protection and before you shatter on the rooted target.

Phantasms can be used in a lazy way… poorly… but if you’re smart about them (and they fix all this delay/unbalanced blind/block/dodge rubbish so they can actually be used again) they can be great for your survival and damage output… better than just using as totally disposable non-useful fodder outside of their first attack role in a shatter build.

I still kill people with izerker since the new delay before it swings screws up people’s dodges and lets you compress another attack in the same time.

The thing about illusionary berserker is even though it may not do the same absurd damage it did prior, to the bug fix, it still is amazing because it sets up for a shatter nicely since you cripple the target, and the phantasm is right there.

Numot.3965:

I still kill people with izerker since the new delay before it swings screws up people’s dodges and lets you compress another attack in the same time.

The thing about illusionary berserker is even though it may not do the same absurd damage it did prior, to the bug fix, it still is amazing because it sets up for a shatter nicely since you cripple the target, and the phantasm is right there.

It hasn’t been fixed yet… they’ll attempt to fix it on the 14th with that update/patch.

Killing baddies is meaningless… you can do that on any class regardless of the build and issues with the class. The devs balance based off of top tier gameplay. Try using a GS vs those players right now and you’ll get wrecked.

The damage from a glass cannon built/geared mes before the bug was hardly absurd damage when you compare it to what other classes can do.