Have mantras grant stability while channeling
This would be great.
While it would be great it would be unbalanced. Mantras weakness is when you have to recharge them. The huge tells and time it takes is the price you pay for 2-3 insta spells.
You remove the weakness of them and I’d have to advocate for a complete neutering of the actual skills after charging.
Hate to say this, but I agree with Azukas. Providing stability to mantras diminishes the basic concept of mantras themselves.
The concept here is risk to channel providing a substantial bonus in the form of powerful instant skills if you succeed at the channel. The risk/reward here is based on balancing the reward so that it’s strong enough to justify the risk. If you diminish/remove the risk, then there’s no room for a useful reward.
The way to fix mantras is to make them actually worth channeling. This could be done through increasing the stack size, providing more traits that interact with them, boosting the raw strength of the skills, or probably other ways that I’m not mentioning.
Providing stability baseline would be too much. A trait could be good, but again, it might be too powerful. What I think is the simplest fix (though likely not the best one) is to shorten the cast times a little or just change how mantras work. And as mentioned above, you could also make them worth something when they’re channeled. I like the idea of giving more stacks baseline. It would definitely make the weaker ones a bit more useful. The healing mantra heals for so freaking little if you finally get to finish the cast time. Mantra of Resolve only cleanses 4-6 conditions and then you need to wait 15 seconds and then you need to pull off the massive cast again. Mantra of Concentration is nice, but the CD afterward is way too long for something that only starts recharging after you’ve used the charges. That’s one thing that could make mantras better. They were awesome when they bugged and recharged in the background.
Mantra of Distraction is, imo, the only balanced mantra. It’s only OP with Confounding Suggestions and that’s because Confounding Suggestions is poorly made and ends up being meh on it’s own but too powerful with MoD.
So, imo, the best changes are adding one extra charge baseline, and significantly lowering the CDs after using charges. I think 4 stacks would be too powerful, so HM would need to lose the extra stack, but in its place, they could add a 20% CD reduction.
Hate to say this, but I agree with Azukas. Providing stability to mantras diminishes the basic concept of mantras themselves.
The concept here is risk to channel providing a substantial bonus in the form of powerful instant skills if you succeed at the channel. The risk/reward here is based on balancing the reward so that it’s strong enough to justify the risk. If you diminish/remove the risk, then there’s no room for a useful reward.
The way to fix mantras is to make them actually worth channeling. This could be done through increasing the stack size, providing more traits that interact with them, boosting the raw strength of the skills, or probably other ways that I’m not mentioning.
4+ uses on mantras would be broken under the current system. Just taking 4 heals and stuns would be stupidly OP.
This won’t happen.
Could potentially create some crazy multiple mantra bunker builds.
@Fay @Zintrothen – I want to avoid outright buffing mantras, even though I do see where you guys are coming from. I agree, the initial concept of mantras was a high risk, high reward skill wherein you were rewarded pretty heavily if you succeeded in channeling them. However, they have failed to live up to this throughout the 4 years that GW2 has been here.
My proposal doesn’t fix all of the problems with mantras, and does change them from high risk, high reward skills. However, it also doesn’t introduce power creep to mesmers (at least I don’t believe that it does). I’m open to having the CDs increased if this change were to go through, but I believe that its the simplest way to make mantras a more viable build without just buffing them like crazy.
The skills themselves are already decent-ish considering our other options, its just so easy to interrupt them.
I don’t think it will be as overpowered as people are making it out to be, especially if it’s just one stack of stability.
Personally, I wish they would give us back the start of recharge upon charging a mantra.
Personally, I wish they would give us back the start of recharge upon charging a mantra.
Again it’s OP that way. You could blow all your recharges right after one another and immediately recharge safely for anothe round. No need to bait stun breaks or dodges just fire away.
It was broken
Personally, I wish they would give us back the start of recharge upon charging a mantra.
I have to agree with Azukas on this one. This was absolutely broken behavior and needed to be changed.
What about reducing channelling time on “Harmonious Mantras” ?
Original cast time : 2,75sec
-20% reduction : 2,2 sec
-33% reduction : 1,8 sec
-36% reduction : 1,75 sec ( = -1 sec)
-50% reduction : 1,38 sec
Choose the one you want (I prefer the 36 % one because of the 0,25s fractioning) but :
- it would keep the risk/reward but give a bonus for the GM trait (cast times >1,5 sec are still obvious).
- less downtime if you want to maintain “Mantra Strength” (supposed to be part of the may power build right?)
- easier reaction time for party support via “Restorative Mantras”
Also a very good idea. Mantra needs something to make it viable with all the cc flying around.
The only reason I didn’t suggest reducing the cast time in my original post was because that would play too strongly with quickness. Mantras are fairly powerful skills, and if we decreased their traited cast time to 1.75 sec, then we would be able to channel them in just over 1 sec, which I think is too quick. Granting you stability while channeling them keeps the cast time long, which allows other players more time to notice what you are doing and prepare for it.
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Me too.
I’d enjoy a rework of Harmonious Mantras which possibly affects cast times and it would be great if Restorative Mantras gained some benefit on using a Mantra. Heal on channeling it is fine but it’s untertuned unless you spam MoP.
As far as abusing Stab by cancelling, it’s easily fixed with a 10 sec CD on gaining it when starting to charge a Mantra. With 1 Stack it would simply give us a slightly better chance to manage a channel in the middle of today’s PvP combat. Mantras channel time is simply outdated…simple as that.
I would also prefer 3x charges baseline and HM changed to lower channel time instead, but properly balanced the OPs idea would possibly go a long way in making Mantras more viable again.
In any discussion of mantras, it’s extremely important to remember that not all mantras are unused junk heaps. Therefor, blanket changes like adding stability to the channel are uncalled for. A more productive conversation involves looking specifically at the differences between used and unused mantras.
The most commonly used mantra is probably the daze mantra. This mantra has an appropriately powerful effect to balance the drawbacks: instant, on target, aoe daze. Additionally, this effect synergizes perfectly with other Mesmer mechanics for bursting and interrupts, making it a powerful and useful tool in the appropriate builds.
The next most used mantra is the condition removal mantra. It cleanses 2 conditions in aoe around the Mesmer. This, however, is mainly used because we don’t have any other good condition removals. It doesn’t synergize well with any other Mesmer mechanics, and the fact that it’s an aoe cleanse is almost entirely disregarded.
In order to bring this up to an appropriate level, I’d add something that makes you pay attention to the aoe nature of the mantra. Perhaps ‘gain increased damage for each condition removed by this mantra (1% damage per stack, 5s duration)’. This gives you direct benefits if you use the mantra to cleanse your allies, and boosts the mesmer’s sustained dps capabilities in a fight.
The last 3 mantras are stinkers. I’ll start with mantra of pain.
MoP does okish damage. However, it’s just ultimately hard to use effectively. Increase the radius and make this into a GtAoE to add usability. This allows us to unload aoe damage without having to wrestle with the abysmal targeting system in this game. This would make it a capable damage dealing tool in WvW groups, PvE events, and would maintain the (extremely niche) use of it as a burst tool for PvP.
The heal mantra is ultimately just underwhelming. Ether feast heals just as much but without the nasty channel. Mirror does the mirror thing. The signet is obviously useful for the phantasm recharges, and the heal well is an aoe heal that cleanses as provides alacrity too (when traited). The heal mantra is simply outclassed in every way. It doesn’t have additional utility, it doesn’t heal more, and it has the massive mantra drawbacks.
To fix this, it needs to have something that it’s best at. I think the most appropriate thing would be raw healing. Since powerful base heals are a bit unbalanced, provide this by massively boosting the scaling coefficient for this skill. If specced for healing power, this mantra should provide massive bursts of healing.
Lastly, the stability mantra. This one is also extremely rarely used. The stunbreak is handy, but we have other stunbreaks. The stability is mostly an afterthought. Fixing this is easy: make the stunbreak aoe, probably alongside increasing the cooldown back up to 20 seconds or whatever it was.
Mantras are mechanically cool concepts, and the fact that some of them work well proves that a balance between risk and reward is possible to find without massive conceptual changes. I feel that these suggestions would mostly provide that balance.
The Heal Mantra synergizes well with Inspiration’s Adept Minor, doubling as a good personal condition clear. It also synergizes well with “on heal” rune effects (as does traited Mirror)
As I’ve said in the past… modify Harmonious Mantra’s to add 1 sec of quickness whenever you charge a mantra. Have it apply the quickness at the end of the charge.
This makes having 2 or more Mantra’s less cumbersome and dare I say more “Harmonious!!”
As I’ve said in the past… modify Harmonious Mantra’s to add 1 sec of quickness whenever you charge a mantra. Have it apply the quickness at the end of the charge.
This makes having 2 or more Mantra’s less cumbersome and dare I say more “Harmonious!!”
Why not give you the quickness when you start channeling the mantra……….? You shouldn’t have to have more than 1 mantra on your bar to make it feasible to channel them. That is why I suggested stability, it works even with only 1 mantra on the bar and gets the job done without shortening their channel times. Because lets face it, the channel time for MoD is already pretty low once you trait HM and get a third charge out of it.
Agree with both Fay and Azukas (oh wow… :P ).
Buff the skills, don’t make Mantras less clunky. I’d in fact go so far and argue that they could be better balanced if they were back to single use and just removing HM instead (which was the primary balance problem back then) because that way you can make the triggered skills “full power”.
But in general, stronger skills with a weakness is the way to go.
Mantras need absolutely no changes. The fact we can get 3 insta stuns, 3 insta damage, 3 decent insta heals, etc is insane. The payment for that is paid for before the fight, and then again guaranteed success at minimum once during combat. (Channel during stealth/distortion)
Also how many opponents have the ability to actually reliably interrupt us?
Thief is the ONLY reliable class in today’s current meta.
Ah, that’s the Azukas we all know and love [citation needed].
Tanya Larina – Human Thief
Finchy Whyte – Sylvari Ranger
Mantras need absolutely no changes. The fact we can get 3 insta stuns, 3 insta damage, 3 decent insta heals, etc is insane. The payment for that is paid for before the fight, and then again guaranteed success at minimum once during combat. (Channel during stealth/distortion)
Also how many opponents have the ability to actually reliably interrupt us?
Thief is the ONLY reliable class in today’s current meta.
Whiiiich is why we see people running the heal mantra, damage mantra, and stab mantra all the time, right?
Oh wait, that doesn’t actually happen…
Mantras need absolutely no changes. The fact we can get 3 insta stuns, 3 insta damage, 3 decent insta heals, etc is insane. The payment for that is paid for before the fight, and then again guaranteed success at minimum once during combat. (Channel during stealth/distortion)
Also how many opponents have the ability to actually reliably interrupt us?
Thief is the ONLY reliable class in today’s current meta.
Bud, this is just wow. MoD is incredibly strong, and is imo a huge weakness in being able to balance mantras. Because MoD is fine in the current iteration of mantras, but none of the others are. MoR heals you for about 2000 HP on each charge. So even if you trait it, you have to risk a long channel time to get all of ~6,500 HP back by burning through all 3 charges (which also requires at least 2 seconds of time due to the recharge on power return). Ether Feast can give you almost that much HP back, without the ridiculous channel time, and once you account for the extra cast time of the mantra and the CD of power return, ether feast and MoR are on about the same CD anyway.
Similarly, MoP just sucks kitten .
MoD is the only good mantra, and it is why people think that mantras are incredibly overpowered. It honestly could use a bit of a nerf, which would then allow mantras as a whole to be changed to make the other ones good enough to carry
MoD is the only good mantra, and it is why people think that mantras are incredibly overpowered. It honestly could use a bit of a nerf, which would then allow mantras as a whole to be changed to make the other ones good enough to carry
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, MoD is only OP with Confounding Suggestions. The CDs match perfectly and it ends up turning a daze mantra into a stun mantra. If MoD needs a nerf, do it indirectly by nerfing Confounding Suggestions.
The thing that needs to be considered with a CS nerf though is how it will affect other daze skills. It would still need to work well with Chaos Storm, Sword 4, and of course Diversion. And it also needs to work without MoD too. Really, it’s just MoD that makes CS so powerful. Perhaps a simple CD increase to, let’s say for the heck of it, 10 seconds will suffice. That way, if you want to stun with MoD, you have to wait for the 10 seconds. Increasing the CD keeps the synergy with all dazes, but it also reduces the frequency of the stun with MoD. It’s simple and perfect for Anet because it’s lazy! :P
When it comes to bring up other mantras to be as powerful as MoD, nerfing MoD only reduces how much the other mantras can be buffed, and it doesn’t solve the problem with CS and MoD’s too perfect synergy. It would still need to daze and then it would still stun on a 5 second CD.