Guild Wars 2

This is something that I’ve been thinking about for a while now, but I really think that phantasms should persist outside of combat. Or, at the very least, that if we are in combat with another target when their target dies, they can retarget until they are killed. If we went the second route, I think we could also change one of the traits in Illusions to make them persist outside of combat, but that wouldn’t be required.

This would, however, bring about a couple balance problems, especially in competitive game modes. Being able to open a fight with 3 berserkers attacking a new target in PvP or WvW simultaneously would be pretty OP in my opinion. In order to make this balanced, I think that the damage from phantasms should be lowered substantially and moved back to mesmer’s weapon skills, and that chronophantasma should be changed to something else. I don’t have any details/numbers for this atm, I just think that this is what would be required in order to keep this from being too powerful.

What do you guys think about this?

And @Ithilwen – Please no gut reactions of “I don’t trust Anet to make this balanced and not gut mesmer”. From a design standpoint do you think this would be better for the class to have phantasms be able to retarget if we are still in combat when their target dies (or even to persist outside of combat)?

I disagree.

That’s a whole lot of sacrifices to make just to have to not resummon your phantasms. In my opinion, just think ahead if you’re in a group fight and your current target is about to die.

Its not about not needing to resummon them. The point is to increase our sustained damage and damage against multiple targets. Truthfully, since so much of our damage is tied up in phantasms, we are stuck with a kitten ramp up time needing to summon them to do anything in a fight. And then once the target dies, the phantasm despawns as well.

There’s no reason to cripple the class as a whole with such an awful mechanic.

The retargeting idea is good but i wouldnt lower any dmg. Because of frequent shattering for dmg, stun and evade i would say it doesnt need any further balance. You can also apply this to clones.
Dont make them permanent thou, this would give balance issues.

Mesmer needs an entire revamp in general. Too wonky and their skills are either “this is stupidly gamebreaking” or “so pointless to use”.

I do this now in GW1 when I set up as Me/Rt, ( which is basically what a “modern” Mesmer is. ) The nice thing about using a Ritualist secondary is that the spirits have secondary effects, including damage mitigation and interrupts. Oh and btw, they do significant damage though they are immobile. That’s probably why they are considered balanced… they are immobile.( hint hint )

Mesmer/Ritualist Weapons in GW1 are not down tuned to compensate for hexes/spirits.

The spirits can be destroyed, ( they are immune to most hexes.) If not destroyed they die after a set time limit. They target whomever the player targets.

So, yes.. one form of this idea has been working for years in GW1 and still is. The major problem I see is that it partially cripples shatters. An immobile spirit/phantasm would be useless more often that not for shatter purposes. They could be released upon shatter.

I don’t understand this persistent request for nerfs.

@Ananeos, Mesmer is all about mind games. Therefore “wonky” mechanics are a perfect fit. I can’t think of any “game breaking” Mesmer skills, regardless of what others would have you believe.

Ithilwen.1529:

I do this now in GW1 when I set up as Me/Rt, ( which is basically what a “modern” Mesmer is. ) The nice thing about using a Ritualist secondary is that the spirits have secondary effects, including damage mitigation and interrupts. Oh and btw, they do significant damage though they are immobile. That’s probably why they are considered balanced… they are immobile.( hint hint )

Mesmer/Ritualist Weapons in GW1 are not down tuned to compensate for hexes/spirits.

The spirits can be destroyed, ( they are immune to most hexes.) If not destroyed they die after a set time limit. They target whomever the player targets.

So, yes.. one form of this idea has been working for years in GW1 and still is. The major problem I see is that it partially cripples shatters. An immobile spirit/phantasm would be useless more often that not for shatter purposes. They could be released upon shatter.

I don’t understand this persistent request for nerfs.

@Ananeos, Mesmer is all about mind games. Therefore “wonky” mechanics are a perfect fit. I can’t think of any “game breaking” Mesmer skills, regardless of what others would have you believe.

Wonky mechanics do not benefit the player of the class. If you have problem playing it you can be more easily countered and the mind games theme is broken.
The request for nerfs is not neccesary there i have to go with your opinion.
Illusions should be able to retarget that would be a huge QoL for mesmers in all gametypes.

Its not a persistent request for nerfs, its requesting that basic problems with mesmers design be addressed by Anet. The design of the class is kitten right now honestly, and it needs to be re-designed.

InsaneQR.7412:

The retargeting idea is good but i wouldnt lower any dmg. Because of frequent shattering for dmg, stun and evade i would say it doesnt need any further balance. You can also apply this to clones.
Dont make them permanent thou, this would give balance issues.

Yea, I mentioned that and brought up the only ways I felt this could really be balanced. Though I would settle for having them not be permanent and just being able to retarget while in combat. That wouldn’t have to nerf their damage to be balanced, but it would go a long way towards making solo mesmer less miserable in PvE, which is the ultimate goal here.

@Ananeos – Exactly, the core design of mesmer is the root of the problem too.

i dont like the idea of 3 phantasms out and to reduce their dmg

i do like the idea of creating more phantasm which can be static harder to kill and give support around him with boons and cleanse (an elite phantasm)

I really do hope they listen to us about this sooner or later… we’ve been asking for them to make illusions persist through combat since day one… That one change would be a huge boon for us in PvE and really doesn’t affect PvP much at all.

messiah.1908:

i do like the idea of creating more phantasm which can be static harder to kill and give support around him with boons and cleanse (an elite phantasm)

They actually did work like this at one point in Beta… It was rather fun summoning an endless string of illusions on bosses up until they died… but considering this was only present in the final week of Beta, and was removed when the game launched, it was probably an unintended bug… but it was a fun bug at least…

I disagree without outside of combat.
But Phantasams do need to persist past their initial targets. I personally have suggested they last until you exit combat and rather than shattering between targets they simply find new ones.

I agree that the core mesmer need some serious redesign to make him on par with the other classes. That is not the fault of the mesmer mechanics per se but more because the different gamemodes have so different requirements this class a lot.

Enemy centered illusion may be viable in PvP and also quite Lore friendly (because you create a illusion …. it only exists in the mind of your opponent and therefore ofc dies with him), but absolute horrible for the normal PvE gameplay. Portal is in WvW a really cool tool, but is broken for jumping puzzles and does not see any other uses, Interrupting traits are a nice concepts for PvP but make no sense in all of the PvE content …. and the list goes on.

Unfortunelaty I have no idea where to start ^^. But I think making Phantasm independend spells (meaning you dont cast them on enemies but they act like companions) may be a good start.

From the perspective of GW1, Phantasms are more akin to Ritualist spirits than to illusions. Illusions exist in the minds of those they affect.

My GW1 Mesmer can use a Ritualist secondary and set up a spirit wall that looks a lot like a phantasm build and then use her invisible illusions.

In GW1 the spirits are mostly, ( unless you have Kurzik rank, ) immobile. I strongly suspect that this was changed because it was too much like a turret engie. So the spirits were weakened and made mobile. Something similar has happened to Ranger spirits.

Seen this way, it makes sense that phantasms should persist until kkilled or on a time limit like GW1 spirits. The spirits shift target to follow there owner’s aim.

tldr: Illusions exist in the mind of those affected. Phantasms function like Me/Rt ,( Mesmer/Ritualist, ) spirits. It makes sense that they should persist and change target.

I wouldn’t place them on a time limit, but phantasms most definitely need to persist if we are still in combat when their target dies. We could optionally either have this apply to clones as well or have a trait for clones to persist while in combat, or say kitten it because they are easy to generate regardless.

I know this doesn’t really help with the mechanics of combat, but thematically the idea of phantasms is that they are a debuff. It’s not supposed to be a pet. It’s supposed to be a figment of the target’s imagination tormenting them. Think of it as a stack of burning that has to be removed by hitting it with your sword instead of a cleanse spell.

The problem with that is that it simply isn’t true. No matter what they were sold as, in GW2 phantasms are not attacks on the mind. They are physical manifestations in the world, and that is reflected in the fact that anyone can kill your phantasms, not just the person they were cast on.

So clearly they are real, manifested illusions. Which means there’s no reason for them to not persist if we are still in combat.