Guild Wars 2

I play berserk GS / Staff mesmer in pve, and it provides good AOE damages and the escape is enough for survivability. Only problem of the build is too much condis but it’s not something unmanageable.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQJAWBnknhtfCmpBEgiFcjycBChRqMAWtfpOWr1cF-TpAXAAdZAY/BA

apharma.3741:

Actually during the fight you get a buff that makes you do 2-3 times more damage to the boss if not more. Anyone wanna check to see if phantasms get it or if mesmer does the same damage as every other class?

For reference I was getting 18k for rift slash and 12k for the other 2 of the auto.

P.S. Also did it on rev, hilariously easy to do.

Didn’t really notice it before but I’ll try to check it out when I get a chance. It’s still better than phantasms doing zero damage.

Xyonon.3987:

snip

What does all of this have to do with PvE and story instances? You’re just talking about solo bosses instead of multi focusing enemies where Mesmer spectacularly fails at.

DuckDuckBOOM.4097:

apharma.3741:

Actually during the fight you get a buff that makes you do 2-3 times more damage to the boss if not more. Anyone wanna check to see if phantasms get it or if mesmer does the same damage as every other class?

For reference I was getting 18k for rift slash and 12k for the other 2 of the auto.

P.S. Also did it on rev, hilariously easy to do.

Didn’t really notice it before but I’ll try to check it out when I get a chance. It’s still better than phantasms doing zero damage.

Phantasm damage doesn’t get buffed with the Vale Guardian in Bloodstone Fen.

Edit : Just tested it, the buff works in the story.

Xyonon.3987:

I didn’t say “we win vs other classes in solo”. I said “we win compared to other professions”.

What I meant is that for example a Thief loses more damage in % than a Chrono if you pick both out of the team enviorment. And this applies to basicly all none-supporters with huge damage modifier boons or quickness independent dps like we have. That’s simply a fact.

A Thief deals around 30k dps against the golem with the commonly used raid buffs (qT uses).
If you now solo a 1m golem without any buffs, you’ll deal around 9k damage, with food around 10k. So you lose 67% dmg as a Thief in solo compared to a team enviorment. Most of it due to Quickness wich increases the dps by 50% already.

A solo Chrono with Rev deals around 10-12k dps in Raids. If he lacks a Rev and goes Commander, he’s at around 8k. Let’s just say 11k dps as a Chrono in Raids, ok?
If you now solo the 1m golem with no buffs but food as the thief, oh magic happens! 7k dps as power (5.5 is cleave) and 9.5k as condi (single target). So we lose 15-40% dmg.

That’s what I mean. We aren’t winning directly in terms of dps, but we are winning in “losing less dps in solo”.

So what you mean to say is ‘our dps is still bad, but other classes get brought back down to our level under perfectly ideal conditions’. Gosh, what a wonderful thing! And if you need to dps on 2 targets? Oops, guess you didn’t want to think about that one…

Fay.2357:

We are talking about solo dps. Don’t accuse me of lying with that statement just because I’ve made expiriences with the setup. I’d rather encourage you to give it a shot too, but seriously, not with the “it’s gonna be worse anyway-attitude” :P

Not exactly. I’m talking about solo dps. You’re talking about solo dps while soloing a hero point. There’s a rather substantial difference in scope between those 2.

Xyonon.3987:

Is it not used? You think people who have no problems will complain in the forums? It’s hands-down the best way for soloing hero points as a Chrono. I agree, I wouldn’t use it for trash mobs or cleave / aoe in general either, you’re right with that. But the only thing you have to setup are 2-3 i duellists and that you’ve done within 10s for sure.

Again, a world exists outside of soloing hero points. Story instances, all of the open world that isn’t hero points, various events, there’s so many things where this simply doesn’t hold true. Yeah, mesmer is great for soloing hero points. Have a gold star I guess…

Xyonon.3987:

Well agreed, Necro and Guard have good pulls. The others are rather mediocre to stack mobs to cleave them later though. Especially since Rev and Druid both alsi lack in aoe and have semi cleave autos.

Two professions with good pulls simply are not “most of them” though. It’s not like it’s our only quality.

Ok, lets go over it again.

Heavies: Guard has great pulls, warrior has extremely powerful cleave and solid aoe, revenant has a decent pull, powerful and large aoe on hammer, and powerful cleave on sword.

Medium: Engie farts aoe, ranger has an ok pull with okish cleave, thief doesn’t do aoe too well, but their single target is excellent.

Light: Necro has great pulls and powerful cleave/aoe, elementalist has aoes big enough that pulls don’t matter at all, and mesmer has great pulls and then sits there looking at the pulled mobs hoping an elementalist comes by to kill them for us.

Edit: @Krispera: I believe that the story instance has a debuff applied to the main boss, which means it takes more damage from all sources (including phantasms). Contrast that to the vale guardian-like boss which applies a buff to you, buffing your outgoing damage. That buff doesn’t transfer to the phantasms.

Fay.2357:

Xyonon.3987:

-snip-

So what you mean to say is ‘our dps is still bad, but other classes get brought back down to our level under perfectly ideal conditions’. Gosh, what a wonderful thing! And if you need to dps on 2 targets? Oops, guess you didn’t want to think about that one…

Again – 7k dps as power, 5.5k as cleave → aoe. That’s just dps, not burst at all.
You’ve got MoP, MoD, MW and PB, aswell damage wells like WoC and GW. You can easily burst any trash ball in open world with those things.

Fay.2357:

A world exists outside of soloing hero points. Story instances, all of the open world that isn’t hero points, various events, there’s so many things where this simply doesn’t hold true. Yeah, mesmer is great for soloing hero points. Have a gold star I guess…

Is the problem that you can’t just use auto attack and everything dies like a Thief or Engi?

You either fight many weak enemies or a single big one. Against many weak ones I’ve mentioned it above, a single strong one can be dealt with as condi or a bit weaker as power aswell and if you are in an event with other ppl, you’re as valuable as any Chrono in a team comp. Or you simple setup 3 iWarlocks and smile about those crits.

What is it exactly you want more?

Fay.2357:

Xyonon.3987:

-snip-

Ok, lets go over it again.

Heavies: Guard has great pulls, warrior has extremely powerful cleave and solid aoe, revenant has a decent pull, powerful and large aoe on hammer, and powerful cleave on sword.

Medium: Engie farts aoe, ranger has an ok pull with okish cleave, thief doesn’t do aoe too well, but their single target is excellent.

Light: Necro has great pulls and powerful cleave/aoe, elementalist has aoes big enough that pulls don’t matter at all, and mesmer has great pulls and then sits there looking at the pulled mobs hoping an elementalist comes by to kill them for us.

Not really.

• Guard has great pulls and aoes
• Warrior has just regular cleave and some 5 target aoes but no pulls
• Revenent has wanna-be stack / pulls and a single target hole in the aa chain (yes Rev can cleave in a very very veeery small aoe that isn’t really aoe at all)
• Engi has a small aoe pull and yes – farts aoes is a wonderful description
• Ranger has a mediocre pull as power and regardless of spec sinlge target holes in its attack pattern, no real aoe or cleave aswell
• Thief has no aoe?! Staff is an aoe machine, cleaves good, skills are 5 target, it’s one of the better aoe or cleave proffessions even, but no aoe pull
• Necro has a great pull as power and regardless of spec great aoe
• Ele has no pulls and great aoe on skills, regular cleave on auto
• And Chrono has multiple pulls and regular cleave with some 5 target aoes and does not have to hope for an ele to pass by if he isn’t a whiny baby … srsly why bring it up that way? =_=

Fay.2357:

I believe that the story instance has a debuff applied to the main boss, which means it takes more damage from all sources (including phantasms). Contrast that to the vale guardian-like boss which applies a buff to you, buffing your outgoing damage. That buff doesn’t transfer to the phantasms.

Yup but they get it if they stay inside of the field. At least the fractal tonic buffs work on us and the phantasms aswell.

Xyonon you’re grossly misinformed, sure condi druid is 18k in a raid environment but condi ranger is significantly higher.

Source.

I have yet to see anyone credible post a decent mesmer damage number without disclaimers saying it’s either skewed in the mesmers favour or unrealistic.

apharma.3741:

Xyonon you’re grossly misinformed, sure condi druid is 18k in a raid environment but condi ranger is significantly higher.

Source.

I have yet to see anyone credible post a decent mesmer damage number without disclaimers saying it’s either skewed in the mesmers favour or unrealistic.

I’m very well aware of the Rangers dps against completly immobile enemies, especially with perma Alacrity, however we talked about Condi Druid just now.

Levetty.1279:

The highest dps we can posibly achieve is about on par with Condi Druid …

Xyonon.3987:

apharma.3741:

Xyonon you’re grossly misinformed, sure condi druid is 18k in a raid environment but condi ranger is significantly higher.

Source.

I have yet to see anyone credible post a decent mesmer damage number without disclaimers saying it’s either skewed in the mesmers favour or unrealistic.

I’m very well aware of the Rangers dps against completly immobile enemies, especially with perma Alacrity, however we talked about Condi Druid just now.

Levetty.1279:

The highest dps we can posibly achieve is about on par with Condi Druid …

I’ve still yet to see a credible source backing up your claimsabout mesmer DPS though which doesn’t have the aforementioned disclaimers. Most DPS tests I’ve seen usually say your actually DPS will be a lot lower than the number they show.

Then when everyone points out the flaws you dismiss it as inconsequential saying it doesn’t matter that it’s a single target build.

Xyonon.3987:

Again – 7k dps as power, 5.5k as cleave -> aoe. That’s just dps, not burst at all.
You’ve got MoP, MoD, MW and PB, aswell damage wells like WoC and GW. You can easily burst any trash ball in open world with those things.

7k solo dps as power, 5.5k solo dps cleave? I’ll believe that when you take a video of it, because I’ve never seen that sort of damage.

I just did a test on the 1 mill hp golem. Traiting domination, dueling, illusions boosting phantasms as much as possible, summoning 3 swordsmen and then autoattacking, I hit 5.3k dps. Now, I’m not 100% full zerk and I’m not using scholar runes, so this could theoretically be marginally higher…but not nearly high enough to hit 7k solo dps. That number is nothing but a lie.

5.5k solo dps cleave? So by cleave you’re presumably talking about the sword autoattack, since phantasms aren’t reliable cleave due to their target locking. I managed to hit a little under 2k autoattacking with sword. I’d love to know what sort of sorcery you’re using to hit 5.5k.

So just for kicks, I went and applied 25 might to myself with the console. I found your fabled 7k solo single target dps and 5.5k cleave! It’s possible with 25 might. Now you just need to show me maintaining 25 might solo in realistic situations and I’ll believe you!

Same old QQ about open world PVE … the comical part about THIS particular thread is that there is some notion Mesmer needs to ‘keep up’ with other classes when … it doesn’t, because we are talking about PVE; the most non-competitive aspect … no, the most co-operative aspect, of the the game.

While Mesmer damage is flawed by the concept of the class, I can’t say that I have been particularly challenged by this class in PVE. No, it’s not easier to play than say, Guardian, but the class isn’t flawed because it doesn’t do comparable damage to the other classes (which is irrelevant) and certainly not because it ‘falls behind’ other classes in PVE.

It’s PVE flavour reuires more focus to play well than other classes and I found it’s well suited to people that want ‘lots to do’ in PVE settings. In that sense, it does deliver.

Frankly, anyone that complains about pocket raptors or ‘no AoE’ doesn’t know how to play the class. It’s not my main, but I know enough to understand the class has the tools to deal with these threats.

Obtena.7952:

It’s not my main,

You didn’t really need to write that, you are quite obviously a thief who has come to kitten up the forum and add nothing to the conversation.

ACtually, i think the contribution is significant … the point being that if I, who doesn’t main a Mesmer, can figure out how to PVE on it, the poor sod that started the thread should be able to figure it out to … but alas, people just decided to argue about how mesmer PVE is bad compared to other classes, which has no relevance in the first place.

Meh, you can always use your mesmer as a logging mule if you can’t figure out how to play it.

@Obtena we can play mesmer in PvE. Its not a matter of us not knowing how to play our class, its a matter of instanced content being built around all the mechanics that mesmer as a class sucks at. This happens over and over and it gets old. Can mesmers solo this content? Yes, we can. But its honestly pretty miserable as a mesmer, and as multiple people have confessed, its actually enjoyable on some other classes even though it was miserable while trying to do it on a mesmer. So coming in here saying that we don’t know how to do PvE is just trying to derail the thread.

@Xyonon please stop. Seriously. We just went over this with @Azukas a few weeks ago and none of us really want to go through this fiasco again. These theoretical numbers you are pointing out for mesmer solo DPS are just that. Theoretical. The DPS numbers you are throwing out there are not what you are going to see as a solo mesmer in PvE, they are over inflated. The 24kDPS you threw out is from a flawed test that used multiple assumptions that will not be true in the open world (especially not in a solo instance), not least of which was that we would always have 3 phantasms out attacking. 5.5k cleave DPS with zero buffs? Seriously? And your argument that mesmers get hamstringed less than other classes when comparing Raid DPS to solo DPS is beside the point. It doesn’t change the fact that mesmers have really low DPS and that the mechanics of the latest living world episode worked against the weaknesses in our class design. It doesn’t change the fact that we have the lowest PvE DPS (and of all the game modes, PvE should be the most balanced DPS wise, not the least…..). It doesn’t change any of that. All it does is try to misdirect readers, try to derail the conversation

Obtena.7952:

ACtually, i think the contribution is significant

Well yeah, thief players always think kittenting up the mesmer board is a valuable use of their time, doesn’t make it so.

At least the other guy is actually trying to make an argument, no matter how flawed it is. You are just coming in here without bothering to read what people are saying and declaring everybody is bad at the game while you are a genius who figured out how to really play Mesmer.

Obtena.7952:

ACtually, i think the contribution is significant … the point being that if I, who doesn’t main a Mesmer, can figure out how to PVE on it, the poor sod that started the thread should be able to figure it out to … but alas, people just decided to argue about how mesmer PVE is bad compared to other classes, which has no relevance in the first place.

Meh, you can always use your mesmer as a logging mule if you can’t figure out how to play it.

Go ahead and upload yourself on Mesmer playing Glint’s Lair then, master Mesmer.

Levetty.1279:

Obtena.7952:

ACtually, i think the contribution is significant

Well yeah, thief players always think kittenting up the mesmer board is a valuable use of their time, doesn’t make it so.

At least the other guy is actually trying to make an argument, no matter how flawed it is. You are just coming in here without bothering to read what people are saying and declaring everybody is bad at the game while you are a genius who figured out how to really play Mesmer.

Nah, he’s a mighty burn guardian, not a thief.

apharma.3741:

I’ve still yet to see a credible source backing up your claimsabout mesmer DPS though which doesn’t have the aforementioned disclaimers. Most DPS tests I’ve seen usually say your actually DPS will be a lot lower than the number they show.

Then when everyone points out the flaws you dismiss it as inconsequential saying it doesn’t matter that it’s a single target build.

Here you go – 4m HP golem went up to 22k. To mention, you can get higher if you play core Mesmer and use Chaos for more condi duration, while also swapping out Viper gear for Sinister. I expect the dps to scratch the 25k, but I don’t know for sure. I use my Chrono version only for open world.

However this is just like the condi Ranger a dps focused build and if you would want to be able to do the Quickness rotation, the dps would be around 14k only and you would still only provide close enough Quickness for everyone – or rather, just not enough to be viable.

Xyonon.3987:

apharma.3741:

I’ve still yet to see a credible source backing up your claimsabout mesmer DPS though which doesn’t have the aforementioned disclaimers. Most DPS tests I’ve seen usually say your actually DPS will be a lot lower than the number they show.

Then when everyone points out the flaws you dismiss it as inconsequential saying it doesn’t matter that it’s a single target build.

Here you go – 4m HP golem went up to 22k. To mention, you can get higher if you play core Mesmer and use Chaos for more condi duration, while also swapping out Viper gear for Sinister. I expect the dps to scratch the 25k, but I don’t know for sure. I use my Chrono version only for open world.

However this is just like the condi Ranger a dps focused build and if you would want to be able to do the Quickness rotation, the dps would be around 14k only and you would still only provide close enough Quickness for everyone – or rather, just not enough to be viable.

Awww, +1 for effort but as I and many others have pointed out, it has 0 cleave which means it’s bottom of the pack for any DPS build. It also took a long time to build up to maximum DPS looking at your log, for the first 2 mins it was under 20k which nearly every single DPS build will beat. Try again please.

That’s without bringing up the fact I and many others have been referring to mesmer solo as being garbage.

You can shine a kitten , cover it in gold and add all the glitter in the world but it’s still a kitten .

Xyonon.3987:

apharma.3741:

I’ve still yet to see a credible source backing up your claimsabout mesmer DPS though which doesn’t have the aforementioned disclaimers. Most DPS tests I’ve seen usually say your actually DPS will be a lot lower than the number they show.

Then when everyone points out the flaws you dismiss it as inconsequential saying it doesn’t matter that it’s a single target build.

Here you go – 4m HP golem went up to 22k. To mention, you can get higher if you play core Mesmer and use Chaos for more condi duration, while also swapping out Viper gear for Sinister. I expect the dps to scratch the 25k, but I don’t know for sure. I use my Chrono version only for open world.

However this is just like the condi Ranger a dps focused build and if you would want to be able to do the Quickness rotation, the dps would be around 14k only and you would still only provide close enough Quickness for everyone – or rather, just not enough to be viable.

Ah yes, the ‘I never need to switch targets or do aoe/cleave or begin dpsing rapidly’ benchmark.

Any word on the sorcery you used to get 5.5k solo power cleaving dps or the 7k single target solo power dps?

Xyonon.3987:

apharma.3741:

I’ve still yet to see a credible source backing up your claimsabout mesmer DPS though which doesn’t have the aforementioned disclaimers. Most DPS tests I’ve seen usually say your actually DPS will be a lot lower than the number they show.

Then when everyone points out the flaws you dismiss it as inconsequential saying it doesn’t matter that it’s a single target build.

Here you go – 4m HP golem went up to 22k. To mention, you can get higher if you play core Mesmer and use Chaos for more condi duration, while also swapping out Viper gear for Sinister. I expect the dps to scratch the 25k, but I don’t know for sure. I use my Chrono version only for open world.

However this is just like the condi Ranger a dps focused build and if you would want to be able to do the Quickness rotation, the dps would be around 14k only and you would still only provide close enough Quickness for everyone – or rather, just not enough to be viable.

Let me guess, your other weapon was a staff? This has been debunked before (and just a few weeks ago at that). You make several assumptions that are guaranteed to not happen in any actual game environment outside of that testing area.

1 – Your phantasms never take damage, which means you only have to resummon them when you shatter. Huge assumption right off the bat because this just isn’t true. Phantasms will take damage, and won’t survive for very long especially with AoE on the ground. Losing a phantasm means that you lose a huge portion of your DPS temporarily (with 3 iWarlocks out, they can easily account for 60% of your personal DPS, so as soon as one of them dies, you lose 20% of your DPS instantly. No other class suffers like that.)

2 – You have SoI on your bar, which means that you used it, which means that it shared your boons (of which you have all of them, most important ones though are quickness, fury, and might) with your phantasms throughout this fight. However, phantasms are one of, if not the, lowest priority in the real game for boon sharing from SoI. If you are sharing your boons with them, that means you wouldn’t have any party members with you, which means you wouldn’t have access to those effects or most of those boons you have. Which also heavily cuts into your damage.

If you want to come here and tell us what DPS mesmer can do, then run a realistic test. If you want to use SoI to share boons with your phantasms in your test, then you have to be realistic and remove all of the boons and class effects that you can’t apply yourself with the same build. Because the only way to guarantee that SoI will share your boons with any of your phantasms, much less all 3 of them, is to make sure that there is no other players around you. So go run the tests again under those conditions and then see what our DPS is really like.

If you want to talk about our DPS, you should know how our mechanics work, including SoI.

Fay.2357:

Xyonon.3987:

Again – 7k dps as power, 5.5k as cleave -> aoe. That’s just dps, not burst at all.
You’ve got MoP, MoD, MW and PB, aswell damage wells like WoC and GW. You can easily burst any trash ball in open world with those things.

7k solo dps as power, 5.5k solo dps cleave? I’ll believe that when you take a video of it, because I’ve never seen that sort of damage.

I just did a test on the 1 mill hp golem. Traiting domination, dueling, illusions boosting phantasms as much as possible, summoning 3 swordsmen and then autoattacking, I hit 5.3k dps. Now, I’m not 100% full zerk and I’m not using scholar runes, so this could theoretically be marginally higher…but not nearly high enough to hit 7k solo dps. That number is nothing but a lie.

5.5k solo dps cleave? So by cleave you’re presumably talking about the sword autoattack, since phantasms aren’t reliable cleave due to their target locking. I managed to hit a little under 2k autoattacking with sword. I’d love to know what sort of sorcery you’re using to hit 5.5k.

So just for kicks, I went and applied 25 might to myself with the console. I found your fabled 7k solo single target dps and 5.5k cleave! It’s possible with 25 might. Now you just need to show me maintaining 25 might solo in realistic situations and I’ll believe you!

• attachments 1 and 2 are single target dps with swordy
• attachment 3 is cleave with wardy / avengy

IWarden is reliable if you set up the pull, summon warden and pull in the end of the cast and then hold them with sword 3 before you shatter. I have no issues with my phantasms cleave the enemies at all.

Finally I would like to mention that for burst you can swap out Well of Action for Mantra of Distraction and Power Block, aswell use Mind Wrack wich all exceeds the dps shown in the Attachments.

That you only managed to get the same dps with the requirement of 25 stacks might is quite obvious without Chronomancer as a traitline.
Also spam Mantra of Pain and don’t interrupted the 3rd aa.

I have no problems with the Chrono dps whatsoever. Oh – and please stop calling me a liar thank you very much.

greez ~<3

apharma.3741:

Awww, +1 for effort but as I and many others have pointed out, it has 0 cleave which means it’s bottom of the pack for any DPS build. It also took a long time to build up to maximum DPS looking at your log, for the first 2 mins it was under 20k which nearly every single DPS build will beat. Try again please.

You don’t want to get smarter, now do you?

1. I mentioned this build would be stronger if adapted to raids since I used the solo build in the raid enviorment.

2. The solo condi build is – as I mentioned myself multiple times now – only good for 1v1 solos aka hero points.

3. You wanted to know if it’s stronger than Condi Druid in terms of pure dps – that’s what I’ve clearly shown you, even with the weaker version of the build.

4. I never said I’d use condi Chrono in raids, that’s why I only have the solo setup. Don’t start making up stuff now please.

OriOri.8724:

Let me guess, your other weapon was a staff?

I didn’t.

OriOri.8724:

1 – Your phantasms never take damage, which means you only have to resummon them when you shatter.

They don’t die in raids and in solo 1v1 hp you can use 2 phants + block for the same dps.

OriOri.8724:

2 – You have SoI on your bar, which means that you used it

Ofc, I didn’t.

Xyonon.3987:

apharma.3741:

Awww, +1 for effort but as I and many others have pointed out, it has 0 cleave which means it’s bottom of the pack for any DPS build. It also took a long time to build up to maximum DPS looking at your log, for the first 2 mins it was under 20k which nearly every single DPS build will beat. Try again please.

You don’t want to get smarter, now do you?

Yet it doesn’t take much to be smarter than you, especially when you stab yourself in the foot so much.

Xyonon.3987:

1. I mentioned this build would be stronger if adapted to raids since I used the solo build in the raid enviorment.

2. The solo condi build is – as I mentioned myself multiple times now – only good for 1v1 solos aka hero points.

So why do you have every boon in the game and most profession buffs if this was meant to be a solo build? Genius!

Xyonon.3987:

3. You wanted to know if it’s stronger than Condi Druid in terms of pure dps – that’s what I’ve clearly shown you, even with the weaker version of the build.

Except I was saying condi ranger and referenced a condi ranger build doing competitive DPS with other classes, here I’ll help you with that part and quote myself below as you can’t seem to manage that.

apharma.3741:

Xyonon you’re grossly misinformed, sure condi druid is 18k in a raid environment but condi ranger is significantly higher.

Source.

I have yet to see anyone credible post a decent mesmer damage number without disclaimers saying it’s either skewed in the mesmers favour or unrealistic.

Xyonon.3987:

4. I never said I’d use condi Chrono in raids, that’s why I only have the solo setup. Don’t start making up stuff now please.

Once again, why do you have it set up as if it’s in raids then with 2 GotL, Assassin’s Presence, PSEA warrior buffs etc? I’m not making stuff up but you clearly are if you’re twisting a simulation with all those buffs to mean solo.

Edit: Added line for better flow of the post and distinction between 2 quotes. I’ll leave Pyro to dissect the rest of the stuff you’ve posted.

apharma.3741:

Xyonon.3987:

apharma.3741:

Awww, +1 for effort but as I and many others have pointed out, it has 0 cleave which means it’s bottom of the pack for any DPS build. It also took a long time to build up to maximum DPS looking at your log, for the first 2 mins it was under 20k which nearly every single DPS build will beat. Try again please.

You don’t want to get smarter, now do you?

Yet it doesn’t take much to be smarter than you, especially when you stab yourself in the foot so much.

Xyonon.3987:

1. I mentioned this build would be stronger if adapted to raids since I used the solo build in the raid enviorment.

2. The solo condi build is – as I mentioned myself multiple times now – only good for 1v1 solos aka hero points.

So why do you have every boon in the game and most profession buffs if this was meant to be a solo build? Genius!

Xyonon.3987:

3. You wanted to know if it’s stronger than Condi Druid in terms of pure dps – that’s what I’ve clearly shown you, even with the weaker version of the build.

Except I was saying condi ranger and referenced a condi ranger build doing competitive DPS with other classes, here I’ll help you with that part and quote myself below as you can’t seem to manage that.

apharma.3741:

Xyonon you’re grossly misinformed, sure condi druid is 18k in a raid environment but condi ranger is significantly higher.

Source.

I have yet to see anyone credible post a decent mesmer damage number without disclaimers saying it’s either skewed in the mesmers favour or unrealistic.

Xyonon.3987:

4. I never said I’d use condi Chrono in raids, that’s why I only have the solo setup. Don’t start making up stuff now please.

Once again, why do you have it set up as if it’s in raids then with 2 GotL, Assassin’s Presence, PSEA warrior buffs etc? I’m not making stuff up but you clearly are if you’re twisting a simulation with all those buffs to mean solo.

Lol rekt
/15char

I’ll dissect the dps claims later. I recognize that I disregarded the potential of alacrity when solo to boost the MoP spam dps above sword auto. I still have doubts about how realistic that number can be, but I want to test it using that method before disputing it on principle.

Edit: I still don’t buy using phantasms as sustained cleave dps in PvE simply due to targets dying ruining that, but my solo numbers are potentially inaccurate.

Levetty.1279:

Obtena.7952:

ACtually, i think the contribution is significant

Well yeah, thief players always think kittenting up the mesmer board is a valuable use of their time, doesn’t make it so.

At least the other guy is actually trying to make an argument, no matter how flawed it is. You are just coming in here without bothering to read what people are saying and declaring everybody is bad at the game while you are a genius who figured out how to really play Mesmer.

That’s lots of angry talk. I don’t know what’ other guy’ your talking about but making a bad argument isn’t better than disregarding the one I made. I mean, I can’t be the only person to have figured this out … unless I’m not giving myself enough credit that is.

Obtena.7952:

Levetty.1279:

Obtena.7952:

ACtually, i think the contribution is significant

Well yeah, thief players always think kittenting up the mesmer board is a valuable use of their time, doesn’t make it so.

At least the other guy is actually trying to make an argument, no matter how flawed it is. You are just coming in here without bothering to read what people are saying and declaring everybody is bad at the game while you are a genius who figured out how to really play Mesmer.

That’s lots of angry talk. I don’t know what’ other guy’ your talking about but making a bad argument isn’t better than disregarding the one I made. I mean, I can’t be the only person to have figured this out … unless I’m not giving myself enough credit that is.

Putting aside his comment, the point a lot of people are making isn’t that mesmers cannot play PvE or solo content. The point they are making is the ease of which other classes do it compared to mesmer and the lack of parity there in.

Mesmer has various mechanics that actively work against the class at a core level. Mesmer has some of the lowest coefficients on auto attacks in the game and also has very few damage mods in traits to boot. The idea is that they have phantasms that then make this up in some ways and depending on circumstances they can. However most of the time these circumstances are just not there and that’s without mentioning how they get shafted by mechanics like “this buff allows you to damage/do 200% more damage to the boss” where phantasms don’t get the buff. This leads to the reality that the mesmer has to rely on low coefficient attacks and doesn’t get the phantasms making up the rest of the damage.

There are other things that mess up mesmers like targets disappearing during fights causing your phantasms to disappear crippling your DPS. They also have very poor AoE even with wells, in fact one of the best AoE damage skills a mesmer has is Mind Wrack which unfortunately also guts your personal DPS. Then there’s the way phantasms are summoned on the enemy meaning when it dies so does the phantasm. But what happens when 1 enemy dies but there’s still 3 more at half health? Well you gotta plink at them with your low damage autos.

Compare this to many other classes which can mindlessly cleave through mobs with such ease. I was trying to test the damage buff you get in the final part of the current LS episode by joining my friend who was on his berserker, I couldn’t get the buff for some reason so it was a bit of a waste of time. However I did get to see him cleaving through mobs like they were paper and the stark contrast between what mesmers have to do in comparison to burst spamming selfish DPS berserker.

apharma.3741:

Obtena.7952:

Levetty.1279:

Obtena.7952:

ACtually, i think the contribution is significant

Well yeah, thief players always think kittenting up the mesmer board is a valuable use of their time, doesn’t make it so.

At least the other guy is actually trying to make an argument, no matter how flawed it is. You are just coming in here without bothering to read what people are saying and declaring everybody is bad at the game while you are a genius who figured out how to really play Mesmer.

That’s lots of angry talk. I don’t know what’ other guy’ your talking about but making a bad argument isn’t better than disregarding the one I made. I mean, I can’t be the only person to have figured this out … unless I’m not giving myself enough credit that is.

Putting aside his comment, the point a lot of people are making isn’t that mesmers cannot play PvE or solo content. The point they are making is the ease of which other classes do it compared to mesmer and the lack of parity there in.

And as usual, that’s a pretty irrelevant point, for a whole bunch of reasons, most notably that Anet doesn’t balance classes based on other classes performance. The whole class is designed to deliver that kind of play to the player. Complaining about it is like complaining you don’t like vanilla when you ordered vanilla ice cream.

If people don’t like the style of play, the level of damage, the way you get damage or the deficiencies of the class, the answer is to play a class more suited to your style of play, not make the class more like other classes. It’s exactly the reason Anet made 9 classes that play all very differently with their various characteristics.

Obtena.7952:

And as usual, that’s a pretty irrelevant point, for a whole bunch of reasons, most notably that Anet doesn’t balance classes based on other classes performance.

That’s literally what balance is. So you’re saying that ANet doesn’t do balance. Which I think might be the one thing we’re all in agreement on.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t know what’ other guy’ your talking about

Because you haven’t read the thread.

Obtena.7952:

disregarding the one I made.

Because you haven’t made an argument.

Obtena.7952:

And as usual, that’s a pretty irrelevant point,

So not are you a super genius and the only person who really knows how to play Mesmer but you also get to dictate what other people talk about or make threads about?

Levetty.1279:

Obtena.7952:

And as usual, that’s a pretty irrelevant point,

So not are you a super genius and the only person who really knows how to play Mesmer but you also get to dictate what other people talk about or make threads about?

I’m not dictating anything … feel free to make all the irrelevant mesmer vs. other class DPS threads you want; it just shows the exact same thing the last thread did … people that make those comparisons don’t understand how MMO balance works, or doesn’t work, depending on you POV.

Nothing new here … I don’t even think the last thread that complained about the exact same thing is 2 pages old yet. Just don’t be upset if someone else rehashes the same reasons the thread doesn’t make much sense to begin with.

tobascodagama.2961:

Obtena.7952:

And as usual, that’s a pretty irrelevant point, for a whole bunch of reasons, most notably that Anet doesn’t balance classes based on other classes performance.

That’s literally what balance is. So you’re saying that ANet doesn’t do balance. Which I think might be the one thing we’re all in agreement on.

I think Anet doesn’t do balancing as people view it, which is why it looks like they don’t. /shrug That’s why it’s so funny to see these threads repeat themselves and see players not look at how things change in the game to conclude they don’t understand what balance actually is. It’s certainly not ‘all classes performing similarly’, that’s evident.

The premise of this thread from the OP is that Mesmers aren’t capable of the basic things that they need to for success in PVE … that’s just wrong. It’s not a problem with the class if people don’t learn how to play it. That’s not a question of balance or DPS. The tools are there; Mesmers are not your ‘press 1’ kind of class.

Obtena.7952:

Levetty.1279:

Obtena.7952:

And as usual, that’s a pretty irrelevant point,

So not are you a super genius and the only person who really knows how to play Mesmer but you also get to dictate what other people talk about or make threads about?

I’m not dictating anything … feel free to make all the irrelevant mesmer vs. other class DPS threads you want; it just shows the exact same thing the last thread did … people that make those comparisons don’t understand how MMO balance works, or doesn’t work, depending on you POV.

Nothing new here … I don’t even think the last thread that complained about the exact same thing is 2 pages old yet. Just don’t be upset if someone else rehashes the same reasons the thread doesn’t make much sense to begin with.

tobascodagama.2961:

Obtena.7952:

And as usual, that’s a pretty irrelevant point, for a whole bunch of reasons, most notably that Anet doesn’t balance classes based on other classes performance.

That’s literally what balance is. So you’re saying that ANet doesn’t do balance. Which I think might be the one thing we’re all in agreement on.

I think Anet doesn’t do balancing as people view it, which is why it looks like they don’t. /shrug That’s why it’s so funny to see these threads repeat themselves and see players not look at how things change in the game to conclude they don’t understand what balance actually is. It’s certainly not ‘all classes performing similarly’, that’s evident.

The premise of this thread from the OP is that Mesmers aren’t capable of the basic things that they need to for success in PVE … that’s just wrong. It’s not a problem with the class if people don’t learn how to play it. That’s not a question of balance or DPS. The tools are there; Mesmers are not your ‘press 1’ kind of class.

No, mesmers are not your “press 1” kind of class. You are right on that point. But you are still missing the actual point of this thread and others. Mesmer can be a complicated class to play well. And even if you absolutely master the class and play at top level, using all 19 of your skills (20 with chrono line), a lot of the new PvE content is absolutely miserable on a mesmer compared to other classes. That is the point people are making. You can play mesmer incredibly well and still have a miserable time taking forever to clear PvE instances whereas most other classes can absolutely faceroll all PvE content. That is a balance issue. Its not that mesmer isn’t capable of doing PvE. Its that to even be competent as a mesmer it requires a much higher skill level than other classes and you still perform worse. The game is not balanced if you have faceroll classes and classes like mesmer that honestly struggle to clear PvE content in an enjoyable manner.

Obtena.7952:

The premise of this thread from the OP is that Mesmers aren’t capable of the basic things that they need to for success in PVE … that’s just wrong. It’s not a problem with the class if people don’t learn how to play it. That’s not a question of balance or DPS. The tools are there; Mesmers are not your ‘press 1’ kind of class.

Which tools? Those for an upgrade from “mortally miserable” to “just miserable”? Possibly. But that’s it and I don’t think it’s a reasonable state of balance.

Obtena.7952:

apharma.3741:

Obtena.7952:

Levetty.1279:

Obtena.7952:

ACtually, i think the contribution is significant

Well yeah, thief players always think kittenting up the mesmer board is a valuable use of their time, doesn’t make it so.

At least the other guy is actually trying to make an argument, no matter how flawed it is. You are just coming in here without bothering to read what people are saying and declaring everybody is bad at the game while you are a genius who figured out how to really play Mesmer.

That’s lots of angry talk. I don’t know what’ other guy’ your talking about but making a bad argument isn’t better than disregarding the one I made. I mean, I can’t be the only person to have figured this out … unless I’m not giving myself enough credit that is.

Putting aside his comment, the point a lot of people are making isn’t that mesmers cannot play PvE or solo content. The point they are making is the ease of which other classes do it compared to mesmer and the lack of parity there in.

And as usual, that’s a pretty irrelevant point, for a whole bunch of reasons, most notably that Anet doesn’t balance classes based on other classes performance. The whole class is designed to deliver that kind of play to the player. Complaining about it is like complaining you don’t like vanilla when you ordered vanilla ice cream.

If people don’t like the style of play, the level of damage, the way you get damage or the deficiencies of the class, the answer is to play a class more suited to your style of play, not make the class more like other classes. It’s exactly the reason Anet made 9 classes that play all very differently with their various characteristics.

Except you are wrong, this is why ANet changed condition damage caps because it screwed over condition damage builds and classes who primarily apply conditions. This is why ANet buffed thief auto damage to make them top DPS when they had no role in raids.

This isn’t about aesthetics, you can adjust many things with mesmer to keep the aesthetics of a controlling mind games class but give it the DPS to compete and not lag behind other classes.

To put it on your ice cream metaphor. It’s like mesmers are ordering vanilla ice cream with every other class ordering vanilla ice cream except mesmers have to serve themselves instead of having it brought out on a silver platter. They also get poor quality water based ice cream not delicious chilled cream.

OriOri.8724:

Obtena.7952:

Levetty.1279:

Obtena.7952:

And as usual, that’s a pretty irrelevant point,

So not are you a super genius and the only person who really knows how to play Mesmer but you also get to dictate what other people talk about or make threads about?

I’m not dictating anything … feel free to make all the irrelevant mesmer vs. other class DPS threads you want; it just shows the exact same thing the last thread did … people that make those comparisons don’t understand how MMO balance works, or doesn’t work, depending on you POV.

Nothing new here … I don’t even think the last thread that complained about the exact same thing is 2 pages old yet. Just don’t be upset if someone else rehashes the same reasons the thread doesn’t make much sense to begin with.

tobascodagama.2961:

Obtena.7952:

And as usual, that’s a pretty irrelevant point, for a whole bunch of reasons, most notably that Anet doesn’t balance classes based on other classes performance.

That’s literally what balance is. So you’re saying that ANet doesn’t do balance. Which I think might be the one thing we’re all in agreement on.

I think Anet doesn’t do balancing as people view it, which is why it looks like they don’t. /shrug That’s why it’s so funny to see these threads repeat themselves and see players not look at how things change in the game to conclude they don’t understand what balance actually is. It’s certainly not ‘all classes performing similarly’, that’s evident.

The premise of this thread from the OP is that Mesmers aren’t capable of the basic things that they need to for success in PVE … that’s just wrong. It’s not a problem with the class if people don’t learn how to play it. That’s not a question of balance or DPS. The tools are there; Mesmers are not your ‘press 1’ kind of class.

No, mesmers are not your “press 1” kind of class. You are right on that point. But you are still missing the actual point of this thread and others. Mesmer can be a complicated class to play well. And even if you absolutely master the class and play at top level, using all 19 of your skills (20 with chrono line), a lot of the new PvE content is absolutely miserable on a mesmer compared to other classes. That is the point people are making.

I don’t get what is wrong with that … Miserable like “I can’t complete PVE content, even though I’m a Mesmer master and use all my tools”

or … “It’s hard, but it can be done with the right tools and build”.

Big difference, but still, using them to direct attention to the same area of DPS ‘deprivation’ or whatever you wish to call it. Ultimately, I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion to adjust DPS to address an inability to complete PVE content … if that inability in fact even exists.

I play Mesmer and love it. If something changes to make it even easier to play I won’t complain.

OriOri.8724:

Finished the story now. Yea…. Its almost like ANet isn’t even kittening aware of how kitten mesmer is in a PvE environment, especially if you are alone. It is horrible game design to make a story update one that is trivial on just about all classes except 1.

if you have to design your PVE so one specific class can keep up with it, the problem seems pretty obvious to me: that class is sub-par

… or the players playing it.

Xyonon.3987:

… or the players playing it.

Yes, there is a problem with people who don’t understand the mechanics of the game or even read the threads they are responding too but most of them don’t even actually play Mesmer so…

Menaka.5092:

OriOri.8724:

Finished the story now. Yea…. Its almost like ANet isn’t even kittening aware of how kitten mesmer is in a PvE environment, especially if you are alone. It is horrible game design to make a story update one that is trivial on just about all classes except 1.

if you have to design your PVE so one specific class can keep up with it, the problem seems pretty obvious to me: that class is sub-par

That’s the problem. In PvP a well played mesmer is a beast. In group content the support they can bring is incredible. So ANet believes that the class is fine for personal play as well.

I don’t even think you can assume that Anet is attempting to kitten and target specific levels of play over all skill of players and different game elements. We might just have a case where the class is just hard to play, and there ain’t nothing wrong with that either.

Obtena.7952:

I don’t even think you can assume that Anet is attempting to kitten and target specific levels of play over all skill of players and different game elements. We might just have a case where the class is just hard to play, and there ain’t nothing wrong with that either.

I’ve explained this to you before and you are either flat out ignoring arguments or just don’t actually play mesmer.

Its not a case of mesmer just being harder to play well than other classes. Its a matter of its harder to play mesmer well, plus the LW episodes contain lots of mechanics that mesmer, by design, is inherently weak at, plus even if you play the class perfectly the episodes are much less fun and much more difficult to get the achievements when using a mesmer compared to any other class.

Harder to play than other classes + instances are harder for a perfectly played mesmer than a mediocre-ly played character of any other class + the instances are designed with several mechanics that directly play to weaknesses in the core concept of the mesmer class = bad design of either the instance or the class.

I’m leaning towards bad design of the class, as are most of the other people in these threads.

OriOri.8724:

Its not a case of mesmer just being harder to play well than other classes. Its a matter of its harder to play mesmer well, plus the LW episodes contain lots of mechanics that mesmer, by design, is inherently weak at, plus even if you play the class perfectly the episodes are much less fun and much more difficult to get the achievements when using a mesmer compared to any other class.

Yeah I know you told me that, I’m not ignoring you, I’m just waiting for you to explain why a class that is much harder to play is a bad thing. I’ve already asked you … is it IMPOSSIBLE to complete content with Mesmer? … I know it’s not. That’s when it’s a problem.

You literally just ignored my comment again, and quoted part of it out of context to make it appear as if you didn’t do just that. I’ve explained this multiple times already and you just refuse to listen. This will be the last time I reply to you on this topic, in any thread, because its abundantly clear you aren’t listening to what I am saying.

There is nothing wrong with a class being harder to play. There is something wrong when a class is harder to play and you still get worse results than mediocre play on every other class in the game. Harder to play should mean that if you can play it well then everything should be easier for you than it would be on other classes, and this is the absolute opposite of what PvE mesmer is in solo content.

Working twice as hard to get half the results is just bad design no matter how you justify it. ¯\_(?)_/¯

Just gonna leave this here …

Xyonon.3987:

Just gonna leave this here …

If mesmers are so great at solo PvE content then why don’t you post a video showing us how "easy"it is for a mesmer to solo the new story instances and still receive the achievements?

OriOri.8724:

Xyonon.3987:

Just gonna leave this here …

If mesmers are so great at solo PvE content then why don’t you post a video showing us how "easy"it is for a mesmer to solo the new story instances and still receive the achievements?

Can do, the day I can record again. Reinstalled my computer and on my laptop I have no recording programm.

But what I actually wanted to show here is the dps you can deal as condi Mesmer with realistic buffs. It’s top dps against VG (green fields), Sabetha (ranged) and Matthias in general.

I don’t know how many times we have to remind you that nobody cares about an artificial testing scenario that plays to all of our strengths and invalidates all of our weaknesses. Stop posting golem parses as if they mean anything.