Guild Wars 2

Qaelyn.7612:

K U T M.4539:

I’ve already adapted. Doesn’t make the build any less boring to fight.

“Boring” — just as meaningless as “cheese”.

Nobody really cares, sorry, because there’s not a single profession or build that someone doesn’t complain about as being “boring”.

builds designed purely to punish aggression arent fun to fight. the mesmer hardly even has to attack you to kill you, he just has to be able to dodge your damage while you attack. and when you pretty much spear yourself trying to make a dent in the mesmers hp, you intrinsically just want to stop. its a passive play style. passive is always boring compared to active.

its the same reason confusion and retal were nerfed and perplexity runes were complained about endlessly.

mechanics are broken any time incidental or passive damage is strong enough to kill.

it hasnt been noticed enough to warrant nerfs because its worthless in pvp and pve and devs dont roam in wvw.

2k mug, 9k C+D, 9k backstab with 1500 toughness and the thf didn’t even bothered to stomp me…he just ran way…probably because a friendly neighborhood warrior came to help me back up. happened to me a few days ago…not even phased, nothing has changed really…no sarcasm and ty to the warrior that came to my aid.

@ K U T M.4539 go back to playing your engi and that rocket boots of yours. i gotta admit it…the change to rocket boots sure makes it a lot more fun…everytime i see it used i hear william shatner singing rocket man in my mind. BTW i’m the cutest asura of them all cutie

insanemaniac.2456:

builds designed purely to punish aggression arent fun to fight.

LOL. Where on earth did you get the idea that your opponent’s job in life is to make combat “fun” for you?

Do you think it’s “fun” to have some guy jump you with a hammer and chain stuns and dazes on you so you can’t do anything? Blow you up with bombs so you bounce around like a rag doll? Backstab you? Fear you so you run away with no control over yourself? Swarm you with a zoo of animals?

None of these things are “fun” for those subjected to them. They are “fun” for those doing them. And the same is true of defensive play.

insanemaniac.2456:

mechanics are broken any time incidental or passive damage is strong enough to kill.

The entire point is to make you think twice. It’s very healthy to have mechanics that punish people for brainless “charge ahead with all guns blazing” gameplay.

It encourages, you know, skilled gameplay.

And if you think it’s easy to generate offense using a block, give it a try sometime. It’s not.

Personally, I think there’s nothing more fun than watching some warrior brute run towards me, jump at me with his hammer, put up my arm, and watch him stagger off with a 750+ point torment ticking away on him. If it’s not “fun” for him, well, too bad — it wouldn’t have been “fun” for me if I hadn’t blocked in time.

Saying that defensive play in combat is “broken” would be like saying the draw play or screen pass weren’t valid football plays.

Qaelyn.7612:

insanemaniac.2456:

builds designed purely to punish aggression arent fun to fight.

LOL. Where on earth did you get the idea that your opponent’s job in life is to make combat “fun” for you?

Do you think it’s “fun” to have some guy jump you with a hammer and chain stuns and dazes on you so you can’t do anything? Blow you up with bombs so you bounce around like a rag doll? Backstab you? Fear you so you run away with no control over yourself? Swarm you with a zoo of animals?

None of these things are “fun” for those subjected to them. They are “fun” for those doing them. And the same is true of defensive play.

insanemaniac.2456:

mechanics are broken any time incidental or passive damage is strong enough to kill.

The entire point is to make you think twice. It’s very healthy to have mechanics that punish people for brainless “charge ahead with all guns blazing” gameplay.

It encourages, you know, skilled gameplay.

And if you think it’s easy to generate offense using a block, give it a try sometime. It’s not.

Personally, I think there’s nothing more fun than watching some warrior brute run towards me, jump at me with his hammer, put up my arm, and watch him stagger off with a 750+ point torment ticking away on him. If it’s not “fun” for him, well, too bad — it wouldn’t have been “fun” for me if I hadn’t blocked in time.

Saying that defensive play in combat is “broken” would be like saying the draw play or screen pass weren’t valid football plays.

first of all, its a game. its all about having fun. go talk to some devs about how to make a game fun… and i guarantee that if you try to say that punishing your opponent for actions returns enough enjoyment for the punisher to make it worth subjecting the victim to the punishments, you will be laughed out of the room. games drift towards active play, and away from hidden and passive damage.

second, youre using poor examples. hammer stun chains have been nerfed they did too much damage while being able to lock down enemies for 5+ secs. thieves have constantly had their stealths nerfed precisely because it isnt fun to take 5-10k every 3 seconds from an invisible enemy. necros have had their bleeds nerfed because of fear spam — they did too much damage while being able to lock down enemies for 5+ secs. minion ai is too poor for it to be anything but frustrating for the user, and minions arent strong on incidental damage and punishment like mesmer clones are. and big old bomb is a gimmick and plainly uncommon even when you meet a bomb engi, which goes a long way in mitigating how unfun it is to be tossed around for 3 secs.

third, it certainly is fine to have punishment accessible. but its unhealthy for a pure punishment build to exist and be able to kill its victims. complaints and historical nerfs tell the truth, punishment is unfun for the victims and provides no more enjoyment to the user than other types of attacks.

@insanemaniac: Historical nerfs and examples of punishment builds….like the entire mesmer class in GW1?

The very class itself was designed around punishment. That concept has been brought to GW2 in several ways. It is a basic tenet of the class’ playstyle and abilities, and it will not be removed, no matter how much you complain about it.

@Lys: Just load up the mesmer with conditions. The Cleansing Conflagration trait simply sucks for condition removal (and chances are they only have the iMage not on c/d anyway). That leaves utilities for condition removal and I guarantee they aren’t toting more than two — mostly likely only one.

Load the mez up with conditions, wait for the clear, do it again and now the mesmer is in quite a bit of hurt.

EDIT: Also the condition based PU builds are very slow killers so it’s not like you have to wipe them quick.

Pyroatheist.9031:

@insanemaniac: Historical nerfs and examples of punishment builds….like the entire mesmer class in GW1?

The very class itself was designed around punishment. That concept has been brought to GW2 in several ways. It is a basic tenet of the class’ playstyle and abilities, and it will not be removed, no matter how much you complain about it.

why do you assume im complaining about it when all im doing is identifying broken gameplay?

its not op, it has clear shortcomings and strength cases, even within the situations where its gameplay is problematic. for example, all you have to do is leave the area that the mesmer says “mine”. then he cant kill you. i know this. i can counter these mesmers. i can kill yaks, even cap sentries, while one of these flies is trying to keep up with me.

but that doesnt mean punishment is good gameplay in overly large doses. it produces passive play, which isnt what killing your enemy should be about. the people that actually enjoy it are just sadists or masochists.

go to fight nights. pu mesmers get no re’s after a couple duels. they end up relogging on another toon.

insanemaniac.2456:

Pyroatheist.9031:

@insanemaniac: Historical nerfs and examples of punishment builds….like the entire mesmer class in GW1?

The very class itself was designed around punishment. That concept has been brought to GW2 in several ways. It is a basic tenet of the class’ playstyle and abilities, and it will not be removed, no matter how much you complain about it.

why do you assume im complaining about it when all im doing is identifying broken gameplay?

its not op, it has clear shortcomings and strength cases, even within the situations where its gameplay is problematic. for example, all you have to do is leave the area that the mesmer says “mine”. then he cant kill you. i know this. i can counter these mesmers. i can kill yaks, even cap sentries, while one of these flies is trying to keep up with me.

but that doesnt mean punishment is good gameplay in overly large doses. it produces passive play, which isnt what killing your enemy should be about. the people that actually enjoy it are just sadists or masochists.

go to fight nights. pu mesmers get no re’s after a couple duels. they end up relogging on another toon.

I’m thinking your definition of “fun” and mine are different, and that’s perfectly fine. However, as soon as you start saying that your way is the only “unbroken” way, it comes across as narrow minded. If a certain method of play is fun for someone (in this case, PU mesmer and quite a few people enjoy the punishment playstyle), just because it doesn’t meet your definition of fun, it’s broken? Pshaw.

I have no respect for Condition PU mesmsers with signet.

This is getting silly. Why don’t you lot challenge those PU users that thrashed you to a duel and dare them to switch the PU trait to something else? Chances are you’ll still get thrashed.

insanemaniac.2456:

first of all, its a game. its all about having fun. go talk to some devs about how to make a game fun… and i guarantee that if you try to say that punishing your opponent for actions returns enough enjoyment for the punisher to make it worth subjecting the victim to the punishments, you will be laughed out of the room. games drift towards active play, and away from hidden and passive damage.

Sorry, but everything you are saying in this thread suggests to me that you don’t even understand what you are criticizing.

PU mesmers are NOT based on “passive damage”. Playing one successfully requires a great deal of activity, planning when to use abilities, and so forth. Even the “simplest” mesmer is a lot more difficult to play than the simpler builds of several other classes.

Counterplay is a standard part of game design. The one who would be laughed out of the room would be the one suggesting that a defensive build is broken because the one being defended against “doesn’t find that fun”. It’s just utterly ridiculous.

insanemaniac.2456:

third, it certainly is fine to have punishment accessible. but its unhealthy for a pure punishment build to exist and be able to kill its victims.

And again here: there is no “pure punishment build able to kill its victims” that I’m aware of anywhere in the mesmer profession. Even a defensive PU is going to do a lot of damage from clones, phantasms and/or direct damage.

I sometimes kill a player mostly from things like scepter block, but that’s only if they are so poorly built that they don’t clear the massive torment ticking away on them, in which case they deserve to die.

You simply have no idea what you are talking about.

Tricare.2946:

I have no respect for Condition PU mesmsers with signet.

And yet, somehow, I’ll still sleep tonight.

Tricare.2946:

I have no respect for Condition PU mesmsers with signet.

I don’t play a PU mesmer at all. So pleeeeeease respect meeeeee?

(Just in case you didn’t get it, that’s sarcasm. Couldn’t care less who you respect.)

juno.1840:

@Lys: Just load up the mesmer with conditions. The Cleansing Conflagration trait simply sucks for condition removal (and chances are they only have the iMage not on c/d anyway). That leaves utilities for condition removal and I guarantee they aren’t toting more than two — mostly likely only one.

Load the mez up with conditions, wait for the clear, do it again and now the mesmer is in quite a bit of hurt.

EDIT: Also the condition based PU builds are very slow killers so it’s not like you have to wipe them quick.

Funny you say that as I just dueled (and lost to) a thief running a condition build (venom-based). And that was with Mender’s Purity and the healing mantra so I could clear 6 conditions every 20 seconds or so.

If he had been running a conventional burst direct-damage thief, I’d have beat him easily.

Rock – paper – scissors.

Qaelyn.7612:

insanemaniac.2456:

first of all, its a game. its all about having fun. go talk to some devs about how to make a game fun… and i guarantee that if you try to say that punishing your opponent for actions returns enough enjoyment for the punisher to make it worth subjecting the victim to the punishments, you will be laughed out of the room. games drift towards active play, and away from hidden and passive damage.

Sorry, but everything you are saying in this thread suggests to me that you don’t even understand what you are criticizing.

PU mesmers are NOT based on “passive damage”. Playing one successfully requires a great deal of activity, planning when to use abilities, and so forth. Even the “simplest” mesmer is a lot more difficult to play than the simpler builds of several other classes.

Counterplay is a standard part of game design. The one who would be laughed out of the room would be the one suggesting that a defensive build is broken because the one being defended against “doesn’t find that fun”. It’s just utterly ridiculous.

insanemaniac.2456:

third, it certainly is fine to have punishment accessible. but its unhealthy for a pure punishment build to exist and be able to kill its victims.

And again here: there is no “pure punishment build able to kill its victims” that I’m aware of anywhere in the mesmer profession. Even a defensive PU is going to do a lot of damage from clones, phantasms and/or direct damage.

I sometimes kill a player mostly from things like scepter block, but that’s only if they are so poorly built that they don’t clear the massive torment ticking away on them, in which case they deserve to die.

You simply have no idea what you are talking about.

Tricare.2946:

I have no respect for Condition PU mesmsers with signet.

And yet, somehow, I’ll still sleep tonight.

welp, youre obstinate and dont wanna lose out on your pubstomping. and all you have to say is i have no idea what im talking about, and thats after clearly debunking every single one of your examples.

you throw around buzzwords like counterplay without understanding that the counterplay to punishment is passivity… and that passive gameplay is lame.

I think this thread went in a direction I didnt want to.
Maybe I know the problem: wrong section? I wanted to listen opinions from various classes about IF they can counter PU mesmers HOW they do it.
Unluckily phantasmal/hybrid mesmer seems the only one class spec that can do it, so almost every mesmer here it’s just talking about adapting and about how you have only to ignore them or how balance will never exists or how you should think only about playing ecc. I didn’t want such a generic discussion cause my topic wasn’t about “Is nerfing a good thing or not?” but about “You can kill PUs? How.”
To be honest i read very little “yes I can” with explaination. The rest of the discussion is out of topic.

I wasn’t complaining about an OP build that I can’t beat, cause I am actually playing it. I’m complaining cause I feel idiotic being immortal without any commitment. This is “cheese” in my opinion. Adapt to it? Lol. It’s not about I don’t want to win, or want to complain, I want this game to improve. Shall I just accept things as they are and play? Come on.

For the last time. I wanted to know who did find a way to counter it from ANY class – without running away of course And please, if you did and you are not a phantasm/hybrid mesmer, tell me how, or directly show me.
If not – if actually no one that is not a mesmer – found a way to counter this – THEN I would like to put this under Anet eyes cause it is obviously not fair.

Please stop the off topic :P
Also, do you think I should actually move the thread in another section?

insanemaniac.2456:

Qaelyn.7612:

insanemaniac.2456:

first of all, its a game. its all about having fun. go talk to some devs about how to make a game fun… and i guarantee that if you try to say that punishing your opponent for actions returns enough enjoyment for the punisher to make it worth subjecting the victim to the punishments, you will be laughed out of the room. games drift towards active play, and away from hidden and passive damage.

Sorry, but everything you are saying in this thread suggests to me that you don’t even understand what you are criticizing.

PU mesmers are NOT based on “passive damage”. Playing one successfully requires a great deal of activity, planning when to use abilities, and so forth. Even the “simplest” mesmer is a lot more difficult to play than the simpler builds of several other classes.

Counterplay is a standard part of game design. The one who would be laughed out of the room would be the one suggesting that a defensive build is broken because the one being defended against “doesn’t find that fun”. It’s just utterly ridiculous.

insanemaniac.2456:

third, it certainly is fine to have punishment accessible. but its unhealthy for a pure punishment build to exist and be able to kill its victims.

And again here: there is no “pure punishment build able to kill its victims” that I’m aware of anywhere in the mesmer profession. Even a defensive PU is going to do a lot of damage from clones, phantasms and/or direct damage.

I sometimes kill a player mostly from things like scepter block, but that’s only if they are so poorly built that they don’t clear the massive torment ticking away on them, in which case they deserve to die.

You simply have no idea what you are talking about.

Tricare.2946:

I have no respect for Condition PU mesmsers with signet.

And yet, somehow, I’ll still sleep tonight.

welp, youre obstinate and dont wanna lose out on your pubstomping. and all you have to say is i have no idea what im talking about, and thats after clearly debunking every single one of your examples.

you throw around buzzwords like counterplay without understanding that the counterplay to punishment is passivity… and that passive gameplay is lame.

I run PU. Id hardly call my playstyle or damage passive. I spend very little time in stealth, and in fact find myself constantly chasing my opponents. If anything I find my opponents passive. Always kiting or running away. Of course I wouldn’t fault them for that. If it works, or wins, more power to them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8td7XyA1JU

insanemaniac.2456:

welp, youre obstinate and dont wanna lose out on your pubstomping. and all you have to say is i have no idea what im talking about, and thats after clearly debunking every single one of your examples.

I have no idea what “pubstomping” is supposed to mean.

And you didn’t debunk anything. You claim that fighting a PU mesmer is “not fun” and the examples I gave are all different mechanisms that other people find “not fun”. You can’t debunk someone not finding something fun. (Your responses also mostly miss the point. For example, I said I hate being feared by necros and you responded talking about their bleeds being nerfed?)

And I’m saying you don’t know what you’re talking about because you keep describing PU gameplay in terms that simply are not accurate.

Lys.8621:

I think this thread went in a direction I didnt want to.
Maybe I know the problem: wrong section? I wanted to listen opinions from various classes about IF they can counter PU mesmers HOW they do it.
Unluckily phantasmal/hybrid mesmer seems the only one class spec that can do it, so almost every mesmer here it’s just talking about adapting and about how you have only to ignore them or how balance will never exists or how you should think only about playing ecc. I didn’t want such a generic discussion cause my topic wasn’t about “Is nerfing a good thing or not?” but about “You can kill PUs? How.”
To be honest i read very little “yes I can” with explaination. The rest of the discussion is out of topic.

I wasn’t complaining about an OP build that I can’t beat, cause I am actually playing it. I’m complaining cause I feel idiotic being immortal without any commitment. This is “cheese” in my opinion. Adapt to it? Lol. It’s not about I don’t want to win, or want to complain, I want this game to improve. Shall I just accept things as they are and play? Come on.

For the last time. I wanted to know who did find a way to counter it from ANY class – without running away of course And please, if you did and you are not a phantasm/hybrid mesmer, tell me how, or directly show me.
If not – if actually no one that is not a mesmer – found a way to counter this – THEN I would like to put this under Anet eyes cause it is obviously not fair.

Please stop the off topic :P
Also, do you think I should actually move the thread in another section?

How to counter a condi, possibly staff using PU mesmer.

1) Set aside 20-60 mins of your day.
2) Apply constant pressure to the mesmer
3) Bring plenty of mobility to achieve #2
4) Keep his phantasms shut down with aoe (iwarden + pull is amazing)
5) Imob, strip his protection, and burst.
6) Apply condi’s to burn anything left down.
7) ~Fin
8) If not a mesmer, ignore condi pu build an walk slowly away.

More positive opinions? Lol.

Lys.8621:

I think this thread went in a direction I didnt want to.
Maybe I know the problem: wrong section? I wanted to listen opinions from various classes about IF they can counter PU mesmers HOW they do it.
Unluckily phantasmal/hybrid mesmer seems the only one class spec that can do it, so almost every mesmer here it’s just talking about adapting and about how you have only to ignore them or how balance will never exists or how you should think only about playing ecc. I didn’t want such a generic discussion cause my topic wasn’t about “Is nerfing a good thing or not?” but about “You can kill PUs? How.”
To be honest i read very little “yes I can” with explaination. The rest of the discussion is out of topic.

I wasn’t complaining about an OP build that I can’t beat, cause I am actually playing it. I’m complaining cause I feel idiotic being immortal without any commitment. This is “cheese” in my opinion. Adapt to it? Lol. It’s not about I don’t want to win, or want to complain, I want this game to improve. Shall I just accept things as they are and play? Come on.

For the last time. I wanted to know who did find a way to counter it from ANY class – without running away of course And please, if you did and you are not a phantasm/hybrid mesmer, tell me how, or directly show me.
If not – if actually no one that is not a mesmer – found a way to counter this – THEN I would like to put this under Anet eyes cause it is obviously not fair.

Please stop the off topic :P
Also, do you think I should actually move the thread in another section?

I just don’t get it, why post a question if you’re not gonna read/or aren’t interested in answers. Of 2 pages you only got the ‘’phantasm/hybrid mesmer" build, while there were clearly other suggestions (i.e. lockdown mesmer, condi necro, etc…).
Secondly, if you feel idiotic playing a build, then stop being an idiot and change your build. This game is not designed so that each and every build would satisfy you or anyone in particular. We have tons of builds for each profession, pick one you enjoy (i.e. don’t feel idiotic playing it) and stick to it.

Some funny comments up in this thread especially comming from those saying that this build requires any skill. 1 out of 4 mesmers in wvw runs this cheap build for a while now anet really needs to look into it and tone it down.

I dont have issues with this build because I play a full confusion engi. fights usually last 15 mins and nobody wins, then everyone walks their way. This PU cheese needs to be toned down , nobody deserves this much control over an opponent with so little buttons to push.

raynn.9254:

Lys.8621:

I think this thread went in a direction I didnt want to.
Maybe I know the problem: wrong section? I wanted to listen opinions from various classes about IF they can counter PU mesmers HOW they do it.
Unluckily phantasmal/hybrid mesmer seems the only one class spec that can do it, so almost every mesmer here it’s just talking about adapting and about how you have only to ignore them or how balance will never exists or how you should think only about playing ecc. I didn’t want such a generic discussion cause my topic wasn’t about “Is nerfing a good thing or not?” but about “You can kill PUs? How.”
To be honest i read very little “yes I can” with explaination. The rest of the discussion is out of topic.

I wasn’t complaining about an OP build that I can’t beat, cause I am actually playing it. I’m complaining cause I feel idiotic being immortal without any commitment. This is “cheese” in my opinion. Adapt to it? Lol. It’s not about I don’t want to win, or want to complain, I want this game to improve. Shall I just accept things as they are and play? Come on.

For the last time. I wanted to know who did find a way to counter it from ANY class – without running away of course And please, if you did and you are not a phantasm/hybrid mesmer, tell me how, or directly show me.
If not – if actually no one that is not a mesmer – found a way to counter this – THEN I would like to put this under Anet eyes cause it is obviously not fair.

Please stop the off topic :P
Also, do you think I should actually move the thread in another section?

I just don’t get it, why post a question if you’re not gonna read/or aren’t interested in answers. Of 2 pages you only got the ‘’phantasm/hybrid mesmer" build, while there were clearly other suggestions (i.e. lockdown mesmer, condi necro, etc…).
Secondly, if you feel idiotic playing a build, then stop being an idiot and change your build. This game is not designed so that each and every build would satisfy you or anyone in particular. We have tons of builds for each profession, pick one you enjoy (i.e. don’t feel idiotic playing it) and stick to it.

Sorry, maybe its you the one that isn’t reading.
Clearly other suggestions? What do you mean for suggestions? Cause I mean, as I many times said, “how do you kill PU mesmer”. I got that other mesmers builds can do it. I wrote it. I don’t feel fair that only other mesmers can be able to do it.
Condi necro? I answered to that. I find condi necro easy to kill. You are a condi necro and you think you can kill PU? Tell me how, not generally “using conditions”, or better, let’s try that out in practice so I can see.
If a build is idiotic, changing it without say nothing, won’t help the game to improve. That’s what I’m caring about.

Basically, Qaelyn said everything better than I could.
If you find complaining on the forum more effective than trying a build out yourself to get an idea where it’s shortcomings are, or adapting your own setup, or your strategy, then I guess that’s what works for you. Just be aware that it’s only your take on how to approach PvP gameplay.

I also find it rather telling the phaeris went instant-defensive when Thieves were mentioned. I suspect the issue here is one of territory. Many Thieves see themselves as pure highwaymen players, preying on lone targets. A very effective role, mind you. PU Mesmers do that too, and while they are comparatively bad at stopping players who run away, they can in turn prey upon the Thief highwaymen perfectly, who rely on bringing the fight to the target.

But as Qaelyn said, whatever works for you. Just don’t blame other players for making it work for them. And playing-to-win works for a whole lot of players, see current prevalence of MOBAs for an example of that.

Oh and thanks Zen, 10 ofc. Luckily it doesn’t change the point.

offence.4726:

This PU cheese needs to be toned down , nobody deserves this much control over an opponent with so little buttons to push.

Contr-oool?
Few buttons to push?

Hey, I played PU for nearly half a year before going back to my Triple-Sword-Interrupts setup. And if there’s one thing the build lacks horribly, it’s control. It doesn’t have any. Pre-Confusion nerf it had a lot versus fast attackers, nowadays plenty fast attacks cause more damage to the Mesmer if you strip Protection than to the attacker. Plus you can still not attack.
And even in hybrid setups you lack the ability to force an enemy to take you serious with PU-setups unless you go PU-directdamage. Which is problematic because any condition-setup will fill you up then run away and come back to refresh.

Likewise, PU uses the exact same 10 buttons you do. That argument is a wee bit silly in GW2 unless your build relies on a transform which only has 5 abilities. And then I’d argue you have 14 abilities to use instead of 10, actually.

I mean sure, complain about it if it works for you but at least look into the build you’re talking about. I don’t know which build you’re talking about, because really, you mention the weak point of PU, lack of control. Enemies disengage if the fight turns bad, and you are hard-pressed to stop them. In turn if you go hybrid, condition classes simply overpower you.

IMHO PU build is quite balanced because lack of aoe, chasing abilities, it is useles for group makes this build situacional. Low level of skill to play this build is true, but other classes also has easy builds eg. spirit ranger. For me more anoying are classes and builds that are good in everyting and easy to play(warrior).

Less skill to stay alive, definitely. But on the other hand for direct damage PU, requires a lot more effort to bring anyone down – bursts are weaker, control is minimal.

I can’t speak for condition PU though, because I haven’t played it.

Lys.8621:

Condi necro? I answered to that. I find condi necro easy to kill.

Then you haven’t played a good one. What are you using for condition clear? Mesmers in general are weak on condition cleansing, and the classic PU build uses only the torch trait, 2 conditions every 20 or 24 seconds. Not nearly enough to keep up with a high condition class.

Other weaknesses already mentioned in the thread: limited mobility, poor chase capability, and no AOE. A PU mesmer can easily be swarmed even by a class with a lot of minions if it’s played properly. Like all classes, heavy CC can also be a problem.

IMO you are grossly exaggerating your “immortality”, assuming you are playing against other players of similar skill.

Carighan.6758:

Basically, Qaelyn said everything better than I could.
If you find complaining on the forum more effective than trying a build out yourself to get an idea where it’s shortcomings are, or adapting your own setup, or your strategy, then I guess that’s what works for you. Just be aware that it’s only your take on how to approach PvP gameplay.

Seriously… I DID try this build myself, I DID try to counter it. I wrote it in the opening post. I wanted to open this discussion on the forum because trying PU build got me frustrated about the fact I COULDN’T BEING KILLED in those situation I already explained in this thread. If actually nothing (BUT some kind of mesmers) is able to counter this IS UNFAIR and makes this game worse.

Carighan.6758:

I can think of three easy counters:

• Ignore them. PU, like many thieves, are a solo build. But most PU Mesmers have no way to catch you reliably, so if you just run past them they look silly and you do something useful instead.

…

But really, like any 1v1 centric build, ignoring them is the most deadly counter. They aren’t helping take anything, they aren’t even making a dent in groups, they’re just praying on lone stragglers who stop to fight them.

Winner winner chicken dinner

Lys.8621:

Seriously… I DID try this build myself, I DID try to counter it. I wrote it in the opening post. I wanted to open this discussion on the forum because trying PU build got me frustrated about the fact I COULDN’T BEING KILLED in those situation I already explained in this thread. If actually nothing (BUT some kind of mesmers) is able to counter this IS UNFAIR and makes this game worse.

It feels like you aren’t even reading the responses and just keep repeating the same claims over and over again.

PU mesmer is a strong dueling class. It can be hard to kill in a straight 1v1. But the situations in which 1v1s occur are limited, so it simply isn’t a big deal. There are other classes/builds that are also very strong in straight duels, and they aren’t a big deal either.

And you’ve been told repeatedly what the weaknesses of the build are already. You just keep ignoring them and repeating the (literally unbelievable) claim that you can’t be killed.

Go on your PU mesmer and go to one of the dueling servers. Maybe the one Vassangel runs. You’ll get beaten good and plenty.

Qaelyn.7612:

Lys.8621:

Condi necro? I answered to that. I find condi necro easy to kill.

Then you haven’t played a good one. What are you using for condition clear? Mesmers in general are weak on condition cleansing, and the classic PU build uses only the torch trait, 2 conditions every 20 or 24 seconds. Not nearly enough to keep up with a high condition class.

Other weaknesses already mentioned in the thread: limited mobility, poor chase capability, and no AOE. A PU mesmer can easily be swarmed even by a class with a lot of minions if it’s played properly. Like all classes, heavy CC can also be a problem.

IMO you are grossly exaggerating your “immortality”, assuming you are playing against other players of similar skill.

I use torch and Mantra Of Resolve. I have obviously enough time to cast mantra after cd while in stealth.
Pretty much vigor and moving in safe places while in stealth (reminder: while in stealth you have aegis/protection/regen up), blink if you really need to move farer very fast.
Minions are useless cause they do not sustained rage damage, I just stay far from em and illusions do the rest. I do not need AoE to 1vs1/2.
CC aren’t a problem tho, Decoy, Blink, sword Leap and in extreme also Distortion.

I really do not want to sound presumptuous. I have been saying all the time that this build needs almost 0 skill to be played good. I give it to a friend that is new to mesmer and he killed me almost always vs my engineer (and I am not new to engineer).
This is why I call it “cheese”. Being extremely strong thanks to your gameplay and skills it is understable and respectful. A newbie that use an extremely easy to play build and eats experienced players it is not, IMO.

Qaelyn.7612:

Lys.8621:

Seriously… I DID try this build myself, I DID try to counter it. I wrote it in the opening post. I wanted to open this discussion on the forum because trying PU build got me frustrated about the fact I COULDN’T BEING KILLED in those situation I already explained in this thread. If actually nothing (BUT some kind of mesmers) is able to counter this IS UNFAIR and makes this game worse.

It feels like you aren’t even reading the responses and just keep repeating the same claims over and over again.

PU mesmer is a strong dueling class. It can be hard to kill in a straight 1v1. But the situations in which 1v1s occur are limited, so it simply isn’t a big deal. There are other classes/builds that are also very strong in straight duels, and they aren’t a big deal either.

And you’ve been told repeatedly what the weaknesses of the build are already. You just keep ignoring them and repeating the (literally unbelievable) claim that you can’t be killed.

Go on your PU mesmer and go to one of the dueling servers. Maybe the one Vassangel runs. You’ll get beaten good and plenty.

Oh my god, give me the time to write your answer While you were writing this, I posted the reply from above.

Lys.8621:

I use torch and Mantra Of Resolve. I have obviously enough time to cast mantra after cd while in stealth.
Pretty much vigor and moving in safe places while in stealth (reminder: while in stealth you have aegis/protection/regen up), blink if you really need to move farer very fast.
Minions are useless cause they do not sustained rage damage, I just stay far from em and illusions do the rest. I do not need AoE to 1vs1/2.
CC aren’t a problem tho, Decoy, Blink, sword Leap and in extreme also Distortion.

And while you’re doing all this stuff, you aren’t holding a point in PvP, and you aren’t really doing much damage to your opponent. You’re surviving.

So what? I can make a thief that is even harder to kill and takes even less skill to play. What does it matter?

If your goal is not to die there are lots of ways to do it. The trick is not dying while accomplishing something useful, and that’s a lot harder.

Lys.8621:

I really do not want to sound presumptuous. I have been saying all the time that this build needs almost 0 skill to be played good. I give it to a friend that is new to mesmer and he killed me almost always vs my engineer (and I am not new to engineer).

Sorry, I just simply don’t buy your claims. They are not consistent with my personal experience, nor that of other PU mesmers I’ve played against and seen in action.

I don’t play engineer but I’ve played against them and good ones are very tough. And any class with good condition clear (which IIRC engineer is one) will give any PU mesmer fits because that’s pretty much the only way they deal damage.

I don’t know what angle you’re after here, but none of it really makes any sense.

I wonder whether the problem isn’t still the definition of “winning”.

To Lys, it seems winning means to kill someone in a 1v1 or maybe 1v2 fight.
To me, and I think Qaelyn, winning means to hit the win-score or to maximize score gain in WvW.

Hooooweeeever:
Not a single game mode in game right now has 1v1-victory as its win-condition.
Yet, capping points and capping material, those are the win-conditions of the current PvP modes.

And I think that’s the root cause of a lot of current balance complaints, the ever-present notion that players need to “fight fair”, hit each other in a 1v1 situation, “duel it out”.
The LAST thing you want to do is fight fair. Why would you? It lessens your chance of success. I’m trying to win a sPvP round or a WvW week here, the moment “Fight fair” becomes a PvP mode I’ll be listening. But right now that’s simply not the case. I’ll fight as tricky and dirty as you let me. If you fall for a feint cap in WvW, your loss, I was never trying to fight. If you trying to 1v1 me and follow me around a corner to run into two stealthed thieves well you should have realized that I won’t ever give you a fair fight if I can avoid it.

If I am fighting 1v1 and I see a chance to escape, I will (one of the key reasons PU isn’t all that strong, you have issues preventing me from doing that). I’ll come back with reinforcements and make sure you cannot win.

Uhm. While I’m roaming my stuff are about killing other groups of players.
My goal is not to survive, is to kill enemies that I chase and/or that are chasing me.
If they run away from me, it is not a fight.
Please, make your thief or whatever with the build you want, I’ll be glad to see it in action vs PU. This is what this topic was for.

Qaelyn, don’t worry, I don’t care if you personally don’t belive my claims. You can think that I’m just a frustrated guy that only needs some good love in real life, and this is why I just complain about non sense things in a Guild Wars 2 forum.
The fact is that if you don’t know about other classes that are not mesmer that can actually counter the build this thread is about you can just stop writing here.
You said generally condi necro, I replied you why for me generally condi necro isn’t a problem. If you are a condi necro and you believe I am wrong just show me.

Lys.8621:

My goal is not to survive, is to kill enemies that I chase and/or that are chasing me.
If they run away from me, it is not a fight.

But if that is your goal, why would you attack a PU Mesmer 1v1? Then you are clearly not trying to kill enemies, because you wouldn’t fight a fight on any ground except an already-decided-I-win one.

That’s an important part of combat, btw. You want to know that you win when you start fighting. That’s the only really smart way to fight. As such, if there are three enemy players roaming solo, and you have three players roaming solo, you team up and take them out one after the other. Their loss if they can’t figure out how vulnerable they made themselves.
(And as a bonus, PU goes down just as well as any other build in that situation :P )

Carighan.6758:

I wonder whether the problem isn’t still the definition of “winning”.

To Lys, it seems winning means to kill someone in a 1v1 or maybe 1v2 fight.
To me, and I think Qaelyn, winning means to hit the win-score or to maximize score gain in WvW.

Hooooweeeever:
Not a single game mode in game right now has 1v1-victory as its win-condition.
Yet, capping points and capping material, those are the win-conditions of the current PvP modes.

And I think that’s the root cause of a lot of current balance complaints, the ever-present notion that players need to “fight fair”, hit each other in a 1v1 situation, “duel it out”.
The LAST thing you want to do is fight fair. Why would you? It lessens your chance of success. I’m trying to win a sPvP round or a WvW week here, the moment “Fight fair” becomes a PvP mode I’ll be listening. But right now that’s simply not the case. I’ll fight as tricky and dirty as you let me. If you fall for a feint cap in WvW, your loss, I was never trying to fight. If you trying to 1v1 me and follow me around a corner to run into two stealthed thieves well you should have realized that I won’t ever give you a fair fight if I can avoid it.

If I am fighting 1v1 and I see a chance to escape, I will (one of the key reasons PU isn’t all that strong, you have issues preventing me from doing that). I’ll come back with reinforcements and make sure you cannot win.

Please stop being so fast writing. I can’t keep up. :P

I’m not talking about winning or loosing. I’m talking about giving players chances. Why else we need balance otherwise?
Anyway you know I understand your point of view about balancing and 1vs1.

Carighan.6758:

But if that is your goal, why would you attack a PU Mesmer 1v1? Then you are clearly not trying to kill enemies, because you wouldn’t fight a fight on any ground except an already-decided-I-win one.

That’s an important part of combat, btw. You want to know that you win when you start fighting. That’s the only really smart way to fight.

I want to know that I have a chance to win, relatively to my and my opponent skills.
That’s how I see a smart way to fight.
There will always be a build that counter well another one.
Maybe one that gives a start with a 60% – 40% chances to each player.
Maybe 70% – 30%. It’s okay we can’t pretend perfection.
I find PU mesmers a 95% – 5% – if you are not mesmer aswell.
Maybe this “numbers imagine” will explain better my point of view.

Hrm, it’s not really about build-vs-build countering for me. Any build can be countered by not trying to out-build them or out-skill them.

Anyhow, I think the issue might be that you approach PU Mesmers like a typical defensive condition target. PU condi Mesmers rely on you supplying them with their damage and their boons (or rather, more damage via the retal you proc them).
One of the most damaging things you can do is the moment she PUs, move out of combat range and wait ~15 seconds. They wasted PU and potentially Confusion, you can easily re-heal Torment due to the lack of other damage, and now they got 1-3 stealth skills on CD and you are probably still fresh because this tends to happen early in the fight.
Now try them again, this time with one of the strongest stealth skills removed. They’ll kitten that you are being lame btw for running out of range, I call it being smart for winning. :P

But then, this goes into “don’t fight them territory”. Let them use their skills, attack them when they got their CDs up and their pants down.

i main an engineer and play my mesmer(im not very good at it) now and then, i was running the 20/20/30 build with full zerkers and it was fun for a short time then i decided to make my own build and went conditions as playing an engineer for so long i just know conditions so i ended up going 20/20/10/0/10 with staff, sword/torch, and 100% condition duration with rabid and rampagers, so i went out into wvw and found my first fight and WUTTT, i was getting over 20 bleeds and perma burning and all i had to do was make sure i had staff clones up, i think the worst part was how easy i could apply them without even trying, on my engineer getting over 10 stacks of bleeding and a good uptime on burning usually involves alotta getting in my opponents face and dodging at the right time and doing all sorts of kitten to make sure i dont die and sure you can argue that i can stack alot more conditions and its alot harder to clear all my conditions but then again im doing a hell of alot more then just auto attacking.

now that is just my view ive had from playing the mesmer and like i said i don’t play it alot and i don’t think i can overly justify my words with out being a legitimately skilled mesmer player so don’t take it to heart to much, now as for fighting a mesmer doing this sort of stuff, i roll HGH zerker nader and hit them with huge hits and easily clear all them conditions so i don’t overly care that much on the situation.

I think part of the problem here is that Lys and some others are talking about WvW while I and others are talking about PvP.

The truth is that a large percentage of the players in WvW simply are not very good. There are a lot of casual players, players who are just there to participate, or get achievements, or run with friends. There are upleveled players who are running blue and green gear. There’s simply a lot of easy pickings there for anyone who is well-geared and experienced.

I was one of these easy pickings before I decided I was tired of getting killed and I decided I would not return until I could kick butt in PvP. Where most of the players are serious about inter-player combat, and the good ones know most of the tricks and how to counter them. I still don’t consider myself very good in PvP but my skill level is now night-and-day superior to what it was before I started, and I’m sure I too will feel “godlike” at least some of the time when I go back to WvW.

Go take your “immortal” PU mesmer to PvP and you’ll discover your mortality right quick.

A condi engineer (using Perplexity runes) is a tough fight for a PU Mesmer.

I’ve never had these kind of issues with PU Mesmers. The illusions and scepter block are most of the build’s condi pressure. You’re not killing that build with melee/close-ranged damage worth a kitten , and I’m convinced that’s the problem a lot of players are having. Use your long-ranged stuff, use it often.

As for Boons, PU -contrary to what I see a lot of folks claiming- does not grant all three defensive Boons at one time. Like most things in the Chaos trait line, that stuff’s random. Sure, you can end up with all three, but the odds aren’t terribly in your favor.

Stealths are on medium-to-long timers; make the poor bastid burn ‘em. There went the PU benefits, now you’re dealing with a visible Mesmer. Especially if you made ‘em waste Mass Invis or Veil … those aren’t coming back anytime soon.

Folk have to stop thinking of a PU spec as a “I can kill ’im if ’e just stands there” build.
Like heavy Retal Guards or Confusion Engies, the PU Mesmer is a “counterattacker”
type … its main potential is what you, the enemy, allow it to have. Control position, control timing, don’t overextend yourself. Hell, make ’em fight on your terms, and wreck ’em.

Engage, hit them with conditions; disengage and kite to deny them their boon sustain, repeat until they blow most or all of their removals and stealths, then cc them and proceed to turn them into red paste.

A PU build sucks at chasing without making some sort of sacrifice to improve that.
They have next to no sustain without a (nearby) target.
They have weak condi removal overall.
If they are the variant built for clone generation/clone death, immobilizes are devastating to get hit by.

If you insist on fighting one on their terms where they are strongest, you deserve to lose.

Want to win? Don’t fight on their terms.

I’ll point everyone to this link: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mesmer

Read the first sentence of the class and remind yourself about the initial quote: “When I’m done with you, you won’t trust your own mind.”

The point of a Mesmer is battlefield confusion and utilizing it to their advantage. I’m sorry if that frustrates you but the devs have made ways to identify the original Mesmer.

“I can only show you the door. You’re the one that has to walk through it.”

offence.4726:

Some funny comments up in this thread especially comming from those saying that this build requires any skill. 1 out of 4 mesmers in wvw runs this cheap build for a while now anet really needs to look into it and tone it down.

I dont have issues with this build because I play a full confusion engi. fights usually last 15 mins and nobody wins, then everyone walks their way. This PU cheese needs to be toned down , nobody deserves this much control over an opponent with so little buttons to push.

Can you explain exactly what control these builds you speak of have over their opponent?

Lys.8621:

raynn.9254:

Lys.8621:

I think this thread went in a direction I didnt want to.
Maybe I know the problem: wrong section? I wanted to listen opinions from various classes about IF they can counter PU mesmers HOW they do it.
Unluckily phantasmal/hybrid mesmer seems the only one class spec that can do it, so almost every mesmer here it’s just talking about adapting and about how you have only to ignore them or how balance will never exists or how you should think only about playing ecc. I didn’t want such a generic discussion cause my topic wasn’t about “Is nerfing a good thing or not?” but about “You can kill PUs? How.”
To be honest i read very little “yes I can” with explaination. The rest of the discussion is out of topic.

I wasn’t complaining about an OP build that I can’t beat, cause I am actually playing it. I’m complaining cause I feel idiotic being immortal without any commitment. This is “cheese” in my opinion. Adapt to it? Lol. It’s not about I don’t want to win, or want to complain, I want this game to improve. Shall I just accept things as they are and play? Come on.

For the last time. I wanted to know who did find a way to counter it from ANY class – without running away of course And please, if you did and you are not a phantasm/hybrid mesmer, tell me how, or directly show me.
If not – if actually no one that is not a mesmer – found a way to counter this – THEN I would like to put this under Anet eyes cause it is obviously not fair.

Please stop the off topic :P
Also, do you think I should actually move the thread in another section?

I just don’t get it, why post a question if you’re not gonna read/or aren’t interested in answers. Of 2 pages you only got the ‘’phantasm/hybrid mesmer" build, while there were clearly other suggestions (i.e. lockdown mesmer, condi necro, etc…).
Secondly, if you feel idiotic playing a build, then stop being an idiot and change your build. This game is not designed so that each and every build would satisfy you or anyone in particular. We have tons of builds for each profession, pick one you enjoy (i.e. don’t feel idiotic playing it) and stick to it.

Sorry, maybe its you the one that isn’t reading.
Clearly other suggestions? What do you mean for suggestions? Cause I mean, as I many times said, “how do you kill PU mesmer”. I got that other mesmers builds can do it. I wrote it. I don’t feel fair that only other mesmers can be able to do it.
Condi necro? I answered to that. I find condi necro easy to kill. You are a condi necro and you think you can kill PU? Tell me how, not generally “using conditions”, or better, let’s try that out in practice so I can see.
If a build is idiotic, changing it without say nothing, won’t help the game to improve. That’s what I’m caring about.

I’m going to suggest that there are two reasons why you’re hearing that Mesmers can defeat PU mesmers.

1) You’re on the Mesmer forum, talking to primarily Mesmers.
2) Mesmers have the most experience with Mesmers, thus are better suited to dismantling an enemy Mesmer, even with a tricky build.

Carighan.6758:

offence.4726:

This PU cheese needs to be toned down , nobody deserves this much control over an opponent with so little buttons to push.

In turn if you go hybrid, condition classes simply overpower you.

You’re wrong on this point.

Pyroatheist.9031:

People still did the combo after the CnD nerf.

The signet change ultimately increased the damage from the combo, not decreased, if you actually run the numbers.

The mug change was the only nerf that actually affected the combo, but ultimately mug was only roughly 10%-20% of the total damage in the combo, making that nerf comparatively small to the rest of it.

Heartseeker is not part of the combo, and was not nerfed when used after this combo was executed. It was nerfed at high hp levels.

Again, hilarious. I like how on explaining how c+d went from hitting for 5-8k to a 1/3 less on a skill which costs 6 initiative doesn’t somehow effect the combo.

You’ll also find that the signet is in fact now the only signet which has a better effect on damage if you don’t activate it!. Amazing! If you press it you actually decrease your damage output!

Also mug really? It used to crit and hit for 5k, now it barely makes 1.5-2k on a soft target.

Keep trying though.