How to fix torch and cond mesmers

How to fix torch and cond mesmers

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Posted by: dimyzuka.7051

dimyzuka.7051

iMage sucks because illusions conditions are not affected by +condition duration traits or stats, so its confusion doesn’t benefit from the +%33 confusion duration trait or +cond duration stats.
illusions are affected by every other dps stat in the game (cond,power,presicion,crit dmg) so this is causing a huge balance issue as so much of our damage comes from illusions.
This is also one of the main reasons why condition mesmers are not viable in sPVP atm.

+1 for dueling in the mists.
+1 for 3v3 or 2v2 deathmatch

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Posted by: Zenith.7301

Zenith.7301

iMage sucks because illusions conditions are not affected by +condition duration traits or stats, so its confusion doesn’t benefit from the +%33 confusion duration trait or +cond duration stats.
illusions are affected by every other dps stat in the game (cond,power,presicion,crit dmg) so this is causing a huge balance issue as so much of our damage comes from illusions.
This is also one of the main reasons why condition mesmers are not viable in sPVP atm.

Confusion sucks in PvE anyways. And a 3 sec 3 stack confusion will never match, even in WvW, the damage of a 5-6k iBerserker or Swordsman hit.

So they either need to give the iMage a large initial hit in addition to the confusion, or actually give enough confusion and confusion duration for the damage to be comparable.

And let us use abilities during The Prestige.

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Posted by: wintermute.4096

wintermute.4096

I’d even go as far and say confusion just sucks everywhere. It’s not like I wouldn’t like the concept, but in pve it is just abyssmal dps and for pvp you don’t have enough ways to reliably pressure with confusion stacks.
All it needs is one condition removal skill, and if your enemy is in a situation where he can afford to just go on defence until the stack tick down you are pretty much screwed.

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Posted by: Tobeyeus.9376

Tobeyeus.9376

Prestige simply needs the channel removed, but I think iMage should pulse a PBAoE Burn around itself and give Retaliation to allies within the AoE.

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Posted by: LokiShi.2876

LokiShi.2876

What if it was like iWarden, and its attack was a one hit pbAoE? Maybe even have a blast finisher? You could still have the iMage mobile, and you could either have the attack orginate from “him” or have his target be the center? I think the size would have to be larger than Mind Stab (greatsword #3) but no larger then necro’s greater marks.

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Posted by: Embolism.8106

Embolism.8106

You guys are all sidetracking. The OP raised a critical issue of condition Mesmers that really needs to be addressed. As it is condition Mesmers do not benefit well from +condition duration (and to a lesser extent +boon duration), which is bad bad bad and must be fixed.

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Posted by: Kazhiel.8194

Kazhiel.8194

Are the conditions from ‘on clone death’ traits affected by duration? It’s my understanding they’re not?

Jalliel [AI] – Yak’s Bend

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Posted by: Devve.1728

Devve.1728

I’d even go as far and say confusion just sucks everywhere. It’s not like I wouldn’t like the concept, but in pve it is just abyssmal dps and for pvp you don’t have enough ways to reliably pressure with confusion stacks.
All it needs is one condition removal skill, and if your enemy is in a situation where he can afford to just go on defence until the stack tick down you are pretty much screwed.

I agree that for PVE and condition mesmer is def sub-par to other classes, but you have obviously not done much PvP as a condition mesmer.

Condition/confusion mesmer is a VERY viable specc for WvW and sPvP tournys

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Posted by: Skyro.3108

Skyro.3108

While yes conduration duration should affect phantasms/clones that really isn’t what’s holding back torch and scepter. What’s holding them back is that they are poorly designed and underpowered.

Confusion itself is fine. The fun thing about confusion is that they are short-duration, burst-type damage that if you time correctly right before skill spam it is very powerful. Having it on a phantasm that just auto-attacks is very lackluster. IMO the iMage should just apply burning.

The prestiege should also apply burning first and then blind. Blind at the start makes no sense since you don’t have to worry about getting hit in stealthed and the enemy can just swing at air and it removes the blind. The channeling portion of it is pretty lame as well. It should be a second activation that reveals you and applies the blind.

As for the scepter it isn’t even a condition-based weapon. It is much stronger when used in a power-spec, and is essentially a ranged power weapon which also happens to have 5 confusion stacks on it’s #3 skill. They need to add confusion to the auto-attack, change the #2 skill to a true defensive skill, and probably change #3 possibly into some sort of AoE-type attack which the Mesmer is currently sorely lacking.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Confusion sucks in PvE anyways. And a 3 sec 3 stack confusion will never match, even in WvW, the damage of a 5-6k iBerserker or Swordsman hit.

I don’t think that was the point, though.
The iMage, independent of how much you were to buff him, would always be at a scaling disadvantage entirely because Expertise does not scale down to illusions. Neither does Concentration, AFAIK.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Gaiawolf.8261

Gaiawolf.8261

iMage is intended to be the GW2 version of Backfire/Empathy, so I doubt it’s basic function will change.

We can only hope for buffs, and the problem there is that the confusion mechanic in general is borderline OP against noobs in WVW, decent in sPVP, and woefully UP in PVE. So any scaling they do for him will have more effect on some game modes than others. He does need a buff for all game modes, but confusion in general needs a PVE overhaul to bring it in line with it’s usefulness in PVP.

Lone Wolf Mesmer | Warrior | Engineer | Thief
Dissentient [DIS] ~Tarnished Coast

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Posted by: Skyro.3108

Skyro.3108

iMage is intended to be the GW2 version of Backfire/Empathy, so I doubt it’s basic function will change.

We can only hope for buffs, and the problem there is that the confusion mechanic in general is borderline OP against noobs in WVW, decent in sPVP, and woefully UP in PVE. So any scaling they do for him will have more effect on some game modes than others. He does need a buff for all game modes, but confusion in general needs a PVE overhaul to bring it in line with it’s usefulness in PVP.

That’s exactly my point. Backfire was great in GW1. The player had control of when to use it, and using it at the correct times crippled teams and took good game sense to use effectively. Having it auto-cast by a phantasm takes all of that away and it just becomes a clunky phantasm that nobody really likes or uses.

They could easily replace the #2 scepter skill (which seems very misplaced on the weapon, and a near duplicate of the sword #4 skill) with a backfire-like spell. If it had a short enough cast time it could be used proactively or reactively and would be very fun to use just like the old GW1 skill.

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Posted by: Embolism.8106

Embolism.8106

See, if Master of Misdirection and other +condition duration affects iMage, it might actually be reasonable. The same goes for the trait Confusing Combatants and the new iWhaler.

Forget Mesmer condition build balance, this fundamental bug needs to be fixed first. You cannot build on a shaky foundation.

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Posted by: EasymodeX.4062

EasymodeX.4062

It just seems really strange that <insert random stats> are not transferred to illusions. No reason for it. If the player invests in the scaling, then it should scale. If they need to retune the base values, so be it.

If you can’t read English, please do not reply to my post.

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Posted by: pinkbunnies.4620

pinkbunnies.4620

And let us use abilities during The Prestige.

id use the torch for this. I already use blink and decoy obsessively so having another instant stealth would make pvp for me even more awesome sauce.

well on second though Id want the damage from the torch illusion to somehow be more in line with off hand sword one because last time i checked it was super weak.

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Posted by: Embolism.8106

Embolism.8106

If iMage was affected by +condition duration, then using Master of Misdirection and Rare Veggie Pizza would mean almost 100% uptime of 3x Confusion (without Haste). That’s not bad I’d say, at least in WvW where you can use foods and Confusion hits super hard.

And yeah, I still don’t understand why they made The Prestige a channeled skill. For one thing it makes it vulnerable to AoE CC, like Stomp and Into the Void.

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Posted by: Revelations.3154

Revelations.3154

I’m sorry but I have to point some out regarding Mesmer application of conditions. Other than confusion by design Mesmers are not meant to have super long condition duration like other classes. We are however designed to have very strong short duration condition application. The trick is to apply the most damage within that short duration make sure it “ticks” for the highest damage possible. If you playing for duration you’re during it wrong… Let’s just say in WvW/PVE my Condition damage hit’s 3k… ;P

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Posted by: Ross Biddle.2367

Ross Biddle.2367

I’m sorry but I have to point some out regarding Mesmer application of conditions. Other than confusion by design Mesmers are not meant to have super long condition duration like other classes. We are however designed to have very strong short duration condition application. The trick is to apply the most damage within that short duration make sure it “ticks” for the highest damage possible. If you playing for duration you’re during it wrong… Let’s just say in WvW/PVE my Condition damage hit’s 3k… ;P

Yet it’s not at all hard to get the full 10 seconds of confusion duration into your CD mesmer build. The fact is, you can keep confusion constantly on your target in some measure, regardless of if he has CD removals or not. Which is good. Stack it high for a burst, but keep it constant regardless.

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Posted by: Embolism.8106

Embolism.8106

I’m sorry but I have to point some out regarding Mesmer application of conditions. Other than confusion by design Mesmers are not meant to have super long condition duration like other classes. We are however designed to have very strong short duration condition application. The trick is to apply the most damage within that short duration make sure it “ticks” for the highest damage possible. If you playing for duration you’re during it wrong… Let’s just say in WvW/PVE my Condition damage hit’s 3k… ;P

You’re missing the point. This is a bug that makes the Mesmer benefit much less from two stats than other professions.

And I’m not sure what you’re on about. If you’re going for Confusion in WvW you’re almost certainly trying to maximise Confusion’s short duration (no idea where you got the idea that we have long duration Confusion from) with Master of Misdirection and Rare Veggie Pizza, in fact “playing for duration” as you put it is a a large part of making Confusion super OP in WvW…

The fact that one of our traits does not work with iMage and iWhaler should make it obvious this is a bug. That’s 50% of our default Confusion skills that don’t work with the trait.

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Posted by: Sarie.1630

Sarie.1630

The fact that one of our traits does not work with iMage and iWhaler should make it obvious this is a bug. That’s 50% of our default Confusion skills that don’t work with the trait.

It might be a large proportion of the actual skills that directly inflict confusion, but if you’re playing a condition damage confusion build, you go all the way. This means traiting for confusion, which can boost your confusion application by a lot, really, a lot. Goes without saying that how you play is a big part of the amount of confusion you can stack – though that’s true of PvP, I don’t really wanna try to address confusion in PvE in this post.

Try this. Load up with glamour skills, use that trio of traits that make Glamours so much more painful, and lay Feedback and Null field on castle walls in WvW. You will be shocked at how many players don’t realise what’s happening until it’s too late. Seeing Rangers almost down themselves on a combination of Feedback and Confusion, run out of the glamour fields, give themselves another couple of stacks, use a skill and finish themselves off.

“Look at me with mah bow!” pew pew pew pew
“Yea, here’s lookin’ at you, champ.”

Confusion is passive, you have to be clever with it. I would be the first to admit I’m a total nab when it comes to PvP of any kind, but I’m really enjoying using Confusion right now in random arenas, where people cannot run away so easily. I think in WvW it’s mostly confined to small groups as a more of a supportive role since opponents otherwise just run for the hills at 10% HP.

On the subject of fixing torch, allowing illusions to use our condition damage and duration I support. I would also support the way iMage casts it’s confusion being less… flimsy. All it needs is for someone to saunter away and the little flimsy orb misses. You don’t even need to dodge it.

(edited by Sarie.1630)

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Posted by: Embolism.8106

Embolism.8106

I don’t understand why people keep trying to lecture on the merits of Confusion (everyone knows its OP in WvW) when the actual topic is about condition and boon duration not working on Illusions.