Guild Wars 2

With the recently announced balance changes, do you think mesmers will have the tools needed to combat thieves and still be relevant in team fights?

Right now I feel like meta thief counters mesmer a little too hard. Don’t get me wrong, everything has to have a weakness, I guess what I like to see more often is maybe a little more even fight or a fighting chance. For example, meta thief is generally countered by meta dps guard, I still feel like thief has a little more options to deal with their weakness such as being able to escape. As a meta mesmer, you can’t kite a thief, you’re basically a free kill if they know what they’re doing with little options to escape.

What do you think?

I think the time to answer this question is after the thief specialization is revealed and everyone has had some time to play with the revamped traits.

Currently, mesmers have gotten drastic increases to potential control and damage output, along with significant boosts to condition pressure and general condition damage/defensive builds. This could very well be enough to allow us to hold our own against thieves.

That being said…thieves also got a good number of strong changes. It’s really not easy to tell how all the changes will play out.

Fay.2357:

I think the time to answer this question is after the thief specialization is revealed and everyone has had some time to play with the revamped traits.

Currently, mesmers have gotten drastic increases to potential control and damage output, along with significant boosts to condition pressure and general condition damage/defensive builds. This could very well be enough to allow us to hold our own against thieves.

That being said…thieves also got a good number of strong changes. It’s really not easy to tell how all the changes will play out.

Agreed, it is good that mesmers got a buff in various amounts of condi pressure over time to combat thieves, I was hoping with some of those changes mesmer might make it back into tier 1.

Until we get skills and abilities that actively remove stealth, the answer is and will remain a resounding no.

you guys talk until as if thieves totally own mesmers…i think its a matter of learning to play.

From a mechanics and profession design standpoint, Thieves totally own Mesmers. Even to the devs, the match-up is something to make jokes about, but they sure aren’t doing anything about it.

I think it depends on will the overall damage in the game go up, down or stay the same. Lower TTK (time to kill) generally favors classes that get the first hit and/or have good ways to avoid damage.

New Confounding Suggestions and the blind on shatter trait are gonna be huge help against thieves. Chaos will also be more accessible which helps against D/D a lot.

EremiteAngel.9765:

…i think its a matter of learning to play.

Nah not really. That’s always a factor but even against aware mesmers, thieves can simply wear them out. The S/D will burn burst options rather quickly, openings don’t really exist unless the thief gives them to you or you luckily stun them twice. Immobilize does nothing to S/D. D/P is a more consistent set, thieves can’t dodge everything but carry 2 stun breaks. D/P 3 skill ensures they can stay aggressive in almost any situation. If D/P 3 skill wasn’t unblockable or at the very least didn’t blind then it may be another story but the skill can completely shut down a mesmer and prevent kiting. The only way to escape the aggression is through stealth.

It depends, there are build, which can stay there own against thieves or at least don’t need an all around awareness of simply everything. If a mesmer player also can predict the thief’s moves, it is an easy play, even for IP power shatter. However, from a certain point on that isn’t an option any more.

MtD Shatter builds (with what I have a certain experience) have good chances of fighting a thief until eternity arrives. If the thief commits too much and the mesmer isn’t slacking, there is a fairly even chance for either side to win. A fairly balanced match up. Also lockdown builds have fair chances of fighting a thief, although I feel it’s harder with lockdown than with MtD shatter.

The announced changes sound promising. Almost every build I can think of right now will get improvements, most notably being IP as baseline and a blind on shatter trait. Which might hurt at least S/D thieves, when fighting mesmers. But as Fay said, it is too early to really say. It may turn out differently than we expect.

All in all, on paper there is much potential here and what counters what might even change. Also we do not know the other specializations yet. So all we think now could be completely different tomorrow…

DrDivine.5378:

With the recently announced balance changes, do you think mesmers will have the tools needed to combat thieves and still be relevant in team fights?

If we go on the what we know now, Panic strike will be a near sure death for Mesmers when it procs, however we have been given a plethora of new ways to avoid this and mitigate it. The natural counter will still exist, but the room for outplaying the thief will be increased. In saying this, the devs are still tweaking traits and numbers and I am not taking elite specialisations into account.

EremiteAngel.9765:

you guys talk until as if thieves totally own mesmers…i think its a matter of learning to play.

It is build dependent, but you have totally not experianced enough of the game if you disagree that S/D thief vs any Power Mesmer barring phantasm is the biggest hardcounter in this game. Not sure what build or where your experience has come from but this is a well known fact to anyone beyond novice level in PvP.

EremiteAngel.9765:

you guys talk until as if thieves totally own mesmers…i think its a matter of learning to play.

Mesmer was my main for over a year and the only class I could not regularly own was thief, so I tried it, and stuck with it.

watch this if u think mesmers are weak against thief

vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJpLPJYv_Iw

this mesmer here is superbly skilled
so its more learn to play

EremiteAngel.9765:

this mesmer here is superbly skilled
so its more learn to play

So to beat the average roaming thief, I must be superbly skilled? You see the problem when average on average ain’t enough?

Thieves being much better than mesmers in tPvP = thieves own mesmers anywhere.

That’s false, because in WvW now it’s the contrary with shatters burst build for small scale fights and MtD for solo-roaming.

There’s also the fact that most of that assumption is based on low-skill mesmer versus cheesy and easy thief builds. But when you see the footage from a good mesmer (the video of EremiteAngel is a perfect example) then you see how powerful mesmers are.

I think one thing people tend to forget in the thief vs mesmer topics is that it’s only certain builds thiefs counter, I play mtd shatter myself (roaming) and find thiefs are rather easy to fight, maybe because there’s an abundance of them in are Mu’s so I’ve got used to anticipating there openers? But none the less I don’t feel hard countered by thiefs, and if mtd shatter is only going to get stronger then I cant see it being as big of an issue if people are willing to switch from power shatter atleast, Ofc all depending on what thiefs are going to receive

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

From a mechanics and profession design standpoint, Thieves totally own Mesmers. Even to the devs, the match-up is something to make jokes about, but they sure aren’t doing anything about it.

Here is an example in Shoutbow war vs AH guard, the reason why shoutbow has replaced AH is because whatever it just does it’s job better. It can instantly rez with banner, it’s shouts both cure conditions and heal, it’s much more mobile with warhorn, provides boons all while actually being able to provide decent damage. It doesn’t have to sacrifice good damage or mobility to be a good support.

Mesmer, even in this meta, still has a lot to offer. Good damage, mobility with portal, and they’re exceptional at removing boons. Yes we have had buffs to condis, but they simply cannot down a foe fast enough, especially with lots of matchups like shoutbows that have an abundance of condi cleanses. for their team. Thieves, despite being countered by dps guards, still have found their way in the current meta because there are ways to kite a guard or simply escape. A mesmer would have much more relevance had it not been for meta thief, which brings me to another point:

With the exception of ranger, before the September patch last year all classes were in tier 1. And to be honest, I don’t think people should be punished for bringing an entire class. A bad build I can understand, but classes like mesmer, necro, etc. an entire class is just enough to hold your team back from competitive play.

EremiteAngel.9765:

you guys talk until as if thieves totally own mesmers…i think its a matter of learning to play.

It’s not a L2P issue. Thieves just have the resources to beat mesmers. Its our counter class. We create a rich environment for their CnD for example with our clones. Want to know why CnD procs when you have DE on – because the clone popping out when dodging will enable the thief to hit it. The amount of blinds also means our phantasms are less effective. Consume plasma is another issue. 10sec of almost all the boons in the game. Instant teleports (sword 2, steal) cannot be countered except for preemptive dodging.. They also have an insane amount of dodges and stealth capabilities – can break immob etc. There’s a reason Mesmers complain about thieves.

EremiteAngel.9765:

watch this if u think mesmers are weak against thief

vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJpLPJYv_Iw

this mesmer here is superbly skilled
so its more learn to play

That’s a highlight video. Sure we can beat theives but honestly the thief had the upper hand. This is echoed by many high tier mesmers just not me.

Jedge.3619:

Consume plasma is another issue. 10sec of almost all the boons in the game.

This is about to become even more of an issue, right?

http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/gw2-improvisation.jpg

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Jedge.3619:

Consume plasma is another issue. 10sec of almost all the boons in the game.

This is about to become even more of an issue, right?

http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/gw2-improvisation.jpg

Yeah. I was upset when I saw that on stream.

William Bradley Knight.2609:

Jedge.3619:

Consume plasma is another issue. 10sec of almost all the boons in the game.

This is about to become even more of an issue, right?

http://dulfy.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/gw2-improvisation.jpg

I think they mentioned looking at some steal abilities with this change. Hopefully they realize how absurd consume plasma is (it’s beyond me why they nerfed lyssa runes but left consume plasma untouched).

it’s very late, but…

• chronomancer spec has shield with an area effect that stuns and has access to ground-targeted AoE that inflicts slow and chill – and maybe more goodies in the traitline
• weakness on interrupt on domination spec
• PBAoE blind on shatter on dueling (iirc) spec
• chaos armor granting protection in chaos spec

New SA will conquer all

EremiteAngel.9765:

watch this if u think mesmers are weak against thief

vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJpLPJYv_Iw

this mesmer here is superbly skilled
so its more learn to play

superbly skilled? This mesmer can’t even use stow weapon on spatial surge and illusionary leap..

Menaka.5092:

it’s very late, but…

• chronomancer spec has shield with an area effect that stuns and has access to ground-targeted AoE that inflicts slow and chill – and maybe more goodies in the traitline
• weakness on interrupt on domination spec
• PBAoE blind on shatter on dueling (iirc) spec
• chaos armor granting protection in chaos spec

All fancy and stuff, but…

• Slow and Chill have aren’t that effective against Thieves. Why? Because ANet.
• PB 2.0 is nice but interrupt builds aren’t that particularly good against Thieves.
• Blinds are nice. But we all know that Thieves will just stab a second time.
• S/D Thieves (or anyone with Trickery) will say ‘Thank you!’ for the extra Protection.

Not meaning to be too pessimistic here. We don’t know about new traits yet and there also might be changes to existing skills. But so far I haven’t seen anyhting which makes me think that Thieves will have a hard time against it.

Syndarin Eledhwen.6513:

EremiteAngel.9765:

watch this if u think mesmers are weak against thief

vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJpLPJYv_Iw

this mesmer here is superbly skilled
so its more learn to play

superbly skilled? This mesmer can’t even use stow weapon on spatial surge and illusionary leap..

As if this should be the standard measurement. Not every1 exploit every game mechanic to it’s last bit to be successful by their own standards. The mesmer in the video certainly plays well enough to hold his own easily in WvW, if this is his/her normal performance.

Are you a zerker mesmer? Chances are a thief got advantage over you.

Xaylin.1860:

Menaka.5092:

it’s very late, but…

• chronomancer spec has shield with an area effect that stuns and has access to ground-targeted AoE that inflicts slow and chill – and maybe more goodies in the traitline
• weakness on interrupt on domination spec
• PBAoE blind on shatter on dueling (iirc) spec
• chaos armor granting protection in chaos spec

All fancy and stuff, but…

• Slow and Chill have aren’t that effective against Thieves. Why? Because ANet.
• PB 2.0 is nice but interrupt builds aren’t that particularly good against Thieves.
• Blinds are nice. But we all know that Thieves will just stab a second time.
• S/D Thieves (or anyone with Trickery) will say ‘Thank you!’ for the extra Protection.

Not meaning to be too pessimistic here. We don’t know about new traits yet and there also might be changes to existing skills. But so far I haven’t seen anyhting which makes me think that Thieves will have a hard time against it.

how are Slow and Chill not effective on thieves? :\
also, you seem to dismiss the fact that wells are a damage source that we can apply to either create an area that thieves will try to avoid or just to apply damage to them even if we cannot target them

Menaka.5092:

Xaylin.1860:

Menaka.5092:

it’s very late, but…

• chronomancer spec has shield with an area effect that stuns and has access to ground-targeted AoE that inflicts slow and chill – and maybe more goodies in the traitline
• weakness on interrupt on domination spec
• PBAoE blind on shatter on dueling (iirc) spec
• chaos armor granting protection in chaos spec

All fancy and stuff, but…

• Slow and Chill have aren’t that effective against Thieves. Why? Because ANet.
• PB 2.0 is nice but interrupt builds aren’t that particularly good against Thieves.
• Blinds are nice. But we all know that Thieves will just stab a second time.
• S/D Thieves (or anyone with Trickery) will say ‘Thank you!’ for the extra Protection.

Not meaning to be too pessimistic here. We don’t know about new traits yet and there also might be changes to existing skills. But so far I haven’t seen anyhting which makes me think that Thieves will have a hard time against it.

how are Slow and Chill not effective on thieves? :\
also, you seem to dismiss the fact that wells are a damage source that we can apply to either create an area that thieves will try to avoid or just to apply damage to them even if we cannot target them

Chill slows cooldowns, doesn’t work on thief. Slow should work okay.

Chill doesn’t work when it comes to their weapon skills.

Slow does work. But personally I won’t expect it to be too effective. Thieves got some of the shortest casttimes and only few channeled skills. You might just not feel a significant difference.

Having Wells is all nice but when looking at what we’ve seen so far they won’t specifically hurt Thieves. Again: Chills. Slows. The damage is nice but it’s doubtful it will be enough. It will only work in confined space or on cap points. The only thing which might really screw with Thieves is the Well of Gravity. Which is an elite. And even there they might be able to port out.

Xaylin.1860:

Having Wells is all nice but when looking at what we’ve seen so far they won’t specifically hurt Thieves. Again: Chills. Slows. The damage is nice but it’s doubtful it will be enough. It will only work in confined space or on cap points. The only thing which might really screw with Thieves is the Well of Gravity. Which is an elite. And even there they might be able to port out.

Just noticed Well of Calamity applies cripple and weakness, that could help even more

I can see mesmers becoming point holders with tanky wells, replacing the necros.

no thief will want to fight a well mesmer on point

We have to see what the thief’s specialization is going to be. The power shatter mesmer will get some nice utilities to fight thieves (blind on shatter and the new CS), but will lose iInvigoration (I stil hope they’ll add it in Illusions as a Master trait), so I don’t think it will be any easier. On the other hand, the new Mental Torment looks so strong that we are pretty much certain to insta-kill the thief if he makes one single mistake. If…

Sagat.3285:

Are you a zerker mesmer? Chances are a thief got advantage over you.

data.4093:

EremiteAngel.9765:

…i think its a matter of learning to play.

Nah not really. That’s always a factor but even against aware mesmers, thieves can simply wear them out. The S/D will burn burst options rather quickly, openings don’t really exist unless the thief gives them to you or you luckily stun them twice. Immobilize does nothing to S/D. D/P is a more consistent set, thieves can’t dodge everything but carry 2 stun breaks. D/P 3 skill ensures they can stay aggressive in almost any situation. If D/P 3 skill wasn’t unblockable or at the very least didn’t blind then it may be another story but the skill can completely shut down a mesmer and prevent kiting. The only way to escape the aggression is through stealth.

well said, the delusional and ignorant people need to stop saying out the “learn to play” bullkitten. If they are so good, where are they in the top tier PvP tournaments?

Quadox.7834:

Menaka.5092:

Xaylin.1860:

Menaka.5092:

it’s very late, but…

• chronomancer spec has shield with an area effect that stuns and has access to ground-targeted AoE that inflicts slow and chill – and maybe more goodies in the traitline
• weakness on interrupt on domination spec
• PBAoE blind on shatter on dueling (iirc) spec
• chaos armor granting protection in chaos spec

All fancy and stuff, but…

• Slow and Chill have aren’t that effective against Thieves. Why? Because ANet.
• PB 2.0 is nice but interrupt builds aren’t that particularly good against Thieves.
• Blinds are nice. But we all know that Thieves will just stab a second time.
• S/D Thieves (or anyone with Trickery) will say ‘Thank you!’ for the extra Protection.

Not meaning to be too pessimistic here. We don’t know about new traits yet and there also might be changes to existing skills. But so far I haven’t seen anyhting which makes me think that Thieves will have a hard time against it.

how are Slow and Chill not effective on thieves? :\
also, you seem to dismiss the fact that wells are a damage source that we can apply to either create an area that thieves will try to avoid or just to apply damage to them even if we cannot target them

Chill slows cooldowns, doesn’t work on thief. Slow should work okay.

yep, same as the current version of power block, because the initiative system that Thieves have, they technically have no weapon cool down. This mean Revenants will also not be affected because the energy system. That pretty much have the affect of adding another class that can “own” Mesmers in HOT, no matter how good the new traits are.

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Mesmer was my main for over a year and the only class I could not regularly own was thief, so I tried it, and stuck with it.

Which sounds like a rather strong – some would say overpowered – position to be in. Unless the goal of the class balance is supposed to be counter&countercounter, but then I bet a lot of sPvP-players would cry bloody murder because it undermines the basis of their favorite game mode (as you cannot fit 8 counters into a team of 5).

Carighan.6758:

Herr der Friedhoefe.2490:

Mesmer was my main for over a year and the only class I could not regularly own was thief, so I tried it, and stuck with it.

Which sounds like a rather strong – some would say overpowered – position to be in. Unless the goal of the class balance is supposed to be counter&countercounter, but then I bet a lot of sPvP-players would cry bloody murder because it undermines the basis of their favorite game mode (as you cannot fit 8 counters into a team of 5).

It depends on the professions and the current meta builds. For example, engineers are extremely strong against some builds (power thieves and medi guards especially), and can almost 1v2 these builds, but can’t do anything about certain other builds like condi necro or condi ranger. Some professions are more “balanced” in the sense that you have the tools to deal with pretty much everything. That’s the case for mesmers (with the exception of thieves) and warriors. Both types of balance are fine.

The new specializations including the elite won’t change anything where thieves are concerned. The fundamental problems mes face with thieves is stealth (prevents putting phants up), lots of evades, consume plasma and their extreme in-combat mobility. From the skills I’ve seen of Chronomancy, with the exception of some long cd wells it doesn’t offer anything significantly different to the equation. A thief will dance right through your tides of time wave and burst you down.

Thieves can be beaten, but they have an inherent advantage over mesmers. I don’t see the value in having hard counter classes, makes no sense to me. All classes should have a level playing field so that skill is the determining factor. Example powerblock doesn’t affect thieves because they have insta cast 0 recharge on skills based on initiative. How is that balanced.

I dread to think what elite specialization thieves will get, they are already in a good place.

Arent u guys still seeing trough the old builds?
i imagine alot will change on the field.