Guild Wars 2

So seeing as the new rune set (imo) was a bit of a slap in the face for us seeing as how not only is our confusion is kinda sucky the fact that other classes could stack it up to 25stacks quite easily and even we cant do that is very annoying.

I think i would rather have had Confusion FIXED then have this Rune set. So if you were to make changes to Confusion what would they be?

Please be realistic.

Personally i think part of the problem for us is how it can be applied. With have 3 ways of causing Confusion without the need for traits them being Confusing Images, iMage and Cry of Frustration.

Confusing Images – Easily dodged
iMage – Just sucks all over
Cry of Frustration – Weak on its own, Quality with IR

I think a few changes to iMage, Confusing Images and Scepter Auto attack would fix this.

Confusing Images i think if it hits on its FIRST tick then even if the target rolls it shouldn’t miss, as that roll can normally mean that 4 of the 4 ticks and thus 4 of the 5 confusion stacks miss. Just like how i think if the first tick is dodged then all of them should miss as this would be more balance rather then it being 100% hit all the time

iMage needs to be redesigned with its bouncing attacks. IE should work with it but as it doesnt work with Staff clones i dont see it ever happening. The attack itself needs to be reworked as it it wont bounce between you and 1 target more then once, it always seems to try and find another person to hit

Example: Target 1 – Me – Target 2, Target 1 – Target 2 or Target 1 – You
Change: Target 1 – Me – Target 1 or Target 1 – Target 2 – Target 1

Another change would be to the base duration, it is like 3 which is just to low, without traits or anything i think its base duration should be closer to 4-5seconds. Its not as if the Mage attacks that often so it cant be chained

Cry of Frustration – I hated it at first, it just seemed a bit weak on its own. However combined with IR i think its pretty great, 6 stacks with 3 clones up is pretty solid, the duration is pretty low again, Gives 8 stacks with IP which isnt to bad.

Change: Increase duration based on Clones as well
Example:
0 Clone(IP) = 3seconds
1 Clone = 3.5 seconds
2 Clones= 4seconds
3 Clones=4.5seconds
4Clones(IP) = 5seconds

Another change i think that would be good, 1second of confusion as part of the Scepter auto attack chain. This wouldnt be changeable on its own due to the full chain taking 2seconds to complete so the confusion wouldnt be able to stack on its own.

Make it proc when each stack ends, reduce max duration to 3sec and we have a powerful condition worth making builds around like Fear is currently.

I think the biggest issue with mesmer confusion is the short durations.

Engineer main here. In WvW I’ll often use prybar, which has 5 stacks of 5 second confusion, and it can work wonders sometimes. I also have a 70% condition duration, which translates into an 8.5 second confusion. Sometimes I’ll take out zerker thieves that ambush me just by whacking them with the pry bar, then hiding behind the gear shield as they smack themselves silly.

The best skill to inflict confusion with a mesmer is Cry of Frustration. Now, not looking at any condition duration or any additional traits, this gives you up to 3 stacks of confusion for 3 seconds. To give a rough comparison between an untraited cry of frustration and an untraited pry bar, the pry bar lasts 66% longer, does 66% more damage, and recharges 100% quicker, leading to a total improved effectiveness of kitten in the confusion department.

I run a condi mesmer as well, an the biggest drawback to confusion has always been that I can never maintain it. Condi mesmers never have a good reason to go into domination, so the only duration increase mesmers get is with master of misdirection. The hard part being that the illusions pool has very high competition in its ranks, so often times there isn’t even the 33% increase.

The other sources of confusion are indirect, and just as short lived. The only thing the mesmer can take comfort in is the fact that they get plenty of ambient confusion from traits and combo fields, which is the only way that their bursts of confusion can go unnoticed. With that said, I think that nearly every skill and trait the mesmer has that inflicts confusion should last at least 5 seconds as a base duration, maybe more.

It might not seem like much, but with mesmer confusion being a standard of 3 seconds, this is a 66% damage and uptime increase on nearly every confusion skill they have.

There are some that need more of a buff. Chaos Armor and Confusiong Enchantments should have a confusion base duration of 8 seconds. Whirl finishers should also be around 7 to 8 seconds, due to how sparsely confusion is applied in them. Blinding befuddlement should also have a duration of 8 seconds or so, largely due to the internal cooldown on the skill.

With that, I would almost fear mesmers becoming overpowered with confusion. That duration increase would mean a lot for condition mesmers.

Also I like the idea of a 1 to 2 second confusion as part of the scepter’s auto attack chain

Thinking about PvE and how those enemies attack much less often, and often very slowly when they do, maybe do something like Torment.
Fairly weak DoT normally (maybe none at all?), but higher DoT when the enemy is using a skill. Having confusion end just before the enemy finished an attack wouldn’t be so bad, and the weak DoT between, if included, would keep it from being a complete waste.
In WvW and SPvP, this may not be as great an idea.

Yeah i agree the duration just isnt good enough. they all last mere seconds when the cool down is at times alot more. Confusing Images lasts 5seconds (if every tick hits, most of the time it doesnt) while the cool down untraited is 15 seconds. That isnt to bad.

I think its Cry of Frustration, iMage and other sources that need to be tweaked. Crying Combatants is a nice trait but again, i think the duration needs to be increased. I would LOVE to run a Confusion/Retal build but it just isnt feasible in its current state

Nearly impossible to stack reliably, the new Rune set could be a nice addition. An additional 30% Confusion duration along with. 1 in 5 chance on hit to cause confusion is decent as well and confusion on interrupt.

I think tweaks to confusion on the Mesmer could make that a GREAT rune set for a confusion build.

int randInt return.3280:

Thinking about PvE and how those enemies attack much less often, and often very slowly when they do, maybe do something like Torment.
Fairly weak DoT normally (maybe none at all?), but higher DoT when the enemy is using a skill. Having confusion end just before the enemy finished an attack wouldn’t be so bad, and the weak DoT between, if included, would keep it from being a complete waste.
In WvW and SPvP, this may not be as great an idea.

Now thats an interesting idea.

Have it so that Confusion deals damage like a DoT and deals more damage when they use skills – int he same way that Torment deals more damage when the person is moving. I think the DoT damage and the damage when they use a skill would need to be tweaked to make it a solid choice

Torment works so well as melee classes have to chase you thus doing twice the damage, if they stop moving then its just the DoT damage. Same could be done for Confusion in that it will continue to deal damage but will deal damage when they use a skill as well.

I like the new runes, and have been running a tweaked Glamour build in WvW this week, with good results. The build is also good in general PvE. I sooooo want to use confusion as the main damage dealer of a build, but it still is too hard to apply reliably in the multiple stacks needed to be deadly, especially applying it in an AoE spread. The one thing the new runes do nicely is make it so all your stacks should be at or near the full 10 second duration.

Condi mesmer is getting better, but confusion may never be something the devs balance the way we want it. Case in point, I just did the Shatterer, and that thing had every condition on him, save for one. I hardly saw confusion on him, and never more than five stacks for a short duration.

When we start to see a continuous 20-25 stacks of confusion on champs and bosses, we will know that Anet has finally got the balance and application of confusion in line with other conditions. We just have to give them that time.

+1

I have to agree. As I already said in the other thread, duration is too short. Untraited CoF has 3 seconds, with Master of Misdirection you get 4 seconds.
Some time ago I thought; Well. Confusion is a powerful condition, all those short durations may have their right to exist. After the confusion nerf, after seeing what other classes are able to stack (engineers ahoy) and after introducing the new rune set with its unbelievably long durations, I think it’s time to buff our Confusion.

It’s our main condition, after all. Either buff our base durations (resulting also in longer durations with Master of Misdirection), or buff the trait itself. “Master of Misdirection” sounds like a joke if you get only 4 seconds of Confusion :P

I can think of two solutions to Confusion’s current implementation-issues:

Guaranteed damage
Confusion would deal X damage per stack on skill use, and that stack would immediately end. If a stack expires without being triggered, it deals X/2 damage instead. Durations after increased ~50% across the board.

Autorefreshing
In this implementation, one stack is also deduced per time damage is dealt. However, total damage of the stack of confusion is always the same, and duration is fixed at 4s. However, each time a target takes damage from Confusion, duration is reset to 4s. In other words the only way to get rid of it is to either not use any ability for 4s, or exhaust the stacks.
Damage of the single stack should be 2-5 current stacks, somewhere around there.

Just as a point of reference, the Mesmer in GW had some skills that allowed the target to take damage every time they proc’d the skill.

Backfire did damage back every time you used a spell. The damage it did was enough to kill most players in four or five strikes, and it lasted for 10 seconds.

Empathy was great against melee classes, and lasted for upwards of 13-15 seconds, depending on your trait points.

Both of these were removable, just like confusion is, so they were not over the top. Every time I use confusion and see it just fizzle, it is these skills that i am dreaming about.

Carighan.6758:

I can think of two solutions to Confusion’s current implementation-issues:

Guaranteed damage
Confusion would deal X damage per stack on skill use, and that stack would immediately end. If a stack expires without being triggered, it deals X/2 damage instead. Durations after increased ~50% across the board.

Autorefreshing
In this implementation, one stack is also deduced per time damage is dealt. However, total damage of the stack of confusion is always the same, and duration is fixed at 4s. However, each time a target takes damage from Confusion, duration is reset to 4s. In other words the only way to get rid of it is to either not use any ability for 4s, or exhaust the stacks.
Damage of the single stack should be 2-5 current stacks, somewhere around there.

Both interesting ideas and could work IF Anet actually bothered to put time into it. Master of Misdirection needs to be buffed alone, 33% isnt exactly Master material now is it. This is meant to be our master condition, yet it seems we are not masters at it what so ever.

Some other Possible Changes:

Master of Misdirection: Skills add 2 extra stacks of confusion, Base duration increased by 50%

Confusing Combatants: Illusions cause 4 seconds of Confusion when they die

Illusionary Retribution : All shatters cause 2stacks of Confusion for 5second per illusion

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

iMage needs to be redesigned with its bouncing attacks. IE should work with it but as it doesnt work with Staff clones i dont see it ever happening. The attack itself needs to be reworked as it it wont bounce between you and 1 target more then once, it always seems to try and find another person to hit

Example: Target 1 – Me – Target 2, Target 1 – Target 2 or Target 1 – You
Change: Target 1 – Me – Target 1 or Target 1 – Target 2 – Target 1

The iMage already works with IE. Bouncing logic could be tweaked a bit, but it is nice when it tags multiple opponents, which it often does.

skcamow.3527:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

iMage needs to be redesigned with its bouncing attacks. IE should work with it but as it doesnt work with Staff clones i dont see it ever happening. The attack itself needs to be reworked as it it wont bounce between you and 1 target more then once, it always seems to try and find another person to hit

Example: Target 1 – Me – Target 2, Target 1 – Target 2 or Target 1 – You
Change: Target 1 – Me – Target 1 or Target 1 – Target 2 – Target 1

The iMage already works with IE. Bouncing logic could be tweaked a bit, but it is nice when it tags multiple opponents, which it often does.

Really? i tested with and without it and it seemed like it didnt work. It also didnt seem to like hitting someone who has already been hit by it which sucks for 1 Vs 1 Maybe its just the way it currently works that it doesnt seem to show very well.

For love of Lyssa, don’t change it into another retarted DOT. It is already too close to being yet another “Bleed+” because of it’s low damage.

It’s duration should always be very short, but to compensate, it should hit hard. This would add actual depth to it’s use. Making it a DoT means you are best of spamming it on recharge.

Master of Timespace.2548:

For love of Lyssa, don’t change it into another retarted DOT. It is already too close to being yet another “Bleed+” because of it’s low damage.

It’s duration should always be very short, but to compensate, it should hit hard. This would add actual depth to it’s use. Making it a DoT means you are best of spamming it on recharge.

In a way i kind of agree, but i think part of the problem is the fact its low damage and its low duration. Its not very punishing and just isnt as stackable as Bleeding in. Though i am sure that the Perplexity might change that if it hasnt been fixed yet seeing Warriors abgle to get 25stacks out of it is a slap in the face to us considering we cant do the same with the rune nor with the traits we have for it.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Master of Timespace.2548:

For love of Lyssa, don’t change it into another retarted DOT. It is already too close to being yet another “Bleed+” because of it’s low damage.

It’s duration should always be very short, but to compensate, it should hit hard. This would add actual depth to it’s use. Making it a DoT means you are best of spamming it on recharge.

In a way i kind of agree, but i think part of the problem is the fact its low damage and its low duration. Its not very punishing and just isnt as stackable as Bleeding in. Though i am sure that the Perplexity might change that if it hasnt been fixed yet seeing Warriors abgle to get 25stacks out of it is a slap in the face to us considering we cant do the same with the rune nor with the traits we have for it.

agree very much with u. yes we mesmers are still very versatile and have clones and phantoms, but i like conditions and punishing kinda skills. glam build was a lot of fun and yes it was strong, but there is other classes that can deal great dmg to zergs as well.
maintaining 25 stacks meant for us to be with lots of other mesmers as glam confusion lasts raw 3-5 sec. the rune does 10 sec and its 5 stacks.
warriors are already very powerful in zergs, with interrupts, stuns and high dps, now i think the mesmers need a stronger role. idk where anet is heading with the mesmer, but i feel little bit left out and hanging in the air not knowing what we are specialized in.
we got a little bit of everything right now, but nothing is making us stand out as much as other classes. and dont get me wrong, i love a lot of our skills, but since the glam mesmer got nerfed to the ground and with it a lot of our main things(bf, retal, chaos armor) anet took a lot of our specializing skills away. now all that sets us apart from classes that we can do and they dont is veil, portal, timewarp and feedback.
and i think confusion should be powerful as a mesmer and should hurt not tickle!

Yeah a HUGE part of our problem is build diversity. We seemed to have been nerfed into using Shatter, Phantasm or a mix build because all our others were nerfed into being useless.

Now the problem with that is both this kinds of builds are strong, they have weaknesses yes but generally they they can be quite strong but thats the problem people continue to complain because we are to strong despite the fact that many (including myself) are FORCED into these builds as no other builds really work for us anymore.

We have a few decent other builds like the Condition build but lets be honest they are nothing compared to condition builds of some other classes we are pretty muxch useless/not taken in TPvP and SPvP is a mess as well, this should surely be a sign to Anet that we need some love.

Of course i dont want to be super-uber unkillable and wipe 50+zergs solo but it would be nice if we had some VIABLE other options. Some that would mean bringing a Mesmer into TPvP wouldnt be a liability and have to have them being guarded as they just wrecked by anything condition based.

Some good thoughtcrafting so far, I love confusion and generally play it even in pve (but I don’t really run lots of dungeons or such). I think Cry of Frustration is a bit frustrating with its cooldown. I would love to see like a feature of it, that the less your confusion did damagewise, the less cooldown you get on this ability. Like, the tick frequency directly controls the cd of this ability for mesmers.

As an aside, it’s very difficult to really deduct how much damage you do with a confusion setup using Rampager gear (pve), in the main slots at least. It’s easy to forget that this kind of setup has a lot of power also for those moves that use it that you always use anyway. I guess the combat log just really does not help us mesmers out, extra much. :P That is the gear I use anyway – I don’t know if people have more success with other.

The cool down on Cry of Frustration would be fine IF the skill was tweaked. Maybe have it so that it inflicts a few more stacks and lasts longer? Maybe make it kinda similar in how Mind Wreck works – the more clones the better the skill becomes?

Rather then just increases the Confusion stacks, it should also increase the duration of the Confusion (as stated in OP) Seeing as (as far as i can tell) CoF does no damage, just inflicts confusion i think the confusion needs to be increased to counter that. Or you could just take the 5point trait and just use MR which would deal damage and inflict confusion, sure it wouldnt be as many stacks but the damage done by the MR goes some way to counter that.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Yeah a HUGE part of our problem is build diversity. We seemed to have been nerfed into using Shatter, Phantasm or a mix build because all our others were nerfed into being useless.

So interrupt- and stealth-builds were nerfed with the buffs to Halting Strike, Bountiful, Chaotic and PU.

I see now…

Carighan.6758:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Yeah a HUGE part of our problem is build diversity. We seemed to have been nerfed into using Shatter, Phantasm or a mix build because all our others were nerfed into being useless.

So interrupt- and stealth-builds were nerfed with the buffs to Halting Strike, Bountiful, Chaotic and PU.

I see now…

I would consider neither worthy of TPvP, might get away in SPvP. You are forgetting that neither of them builds RELY on them. Partially due to the fact that we have very little stealth Its more of a bonus/escape so is more utility then anything else.

Same goes for Interrupts sure you can get might, damage and Vul from them but you will NOT win a fight just using them they are again a utility used to benefit you and punish your target(s) you will NOT win a fight based on Stealth or based on Interrupt alone.

My build uses both but that doesnt make my build a stealth or interrupt build.

The problem with confusion is that confusion was supposed to replace hexes like Empathy and Spiteful spirit and Visions of Regret, punishing for doing certain actions. However the result is inadequate unless you stack a full 25 times and have full condition duration build, and then it is easily cleansed.

The problem is that potential at 25 stacks with full condition duration builds, then anet’s rationale is to make the base effect extremely weak and short duration.

Empathy lasted 14 seconds, and that was just through putting all your points in domination. There wasn’t gear (aside from raising domination stat) that improved hex duration. Confusion base times are 3-5s normally, meaning that with maxed condition duration (capped at 100%) you’re looking at 6-10s of confusion, and because stacking more does not reset the timer, they roll off, so actually getting 25 stacks of confusion is a feat rewarded by about 2-3 seconds of that confusion being stacked, which is like, one attack at that high of confusion.

So ideas for improvement could include either or of the following things:

increase base duration: increase from 3s-5s to 5s-8s, meaning 10-16s duration when built for it, gives you more time to stack, and 25 stacks will have 5s duration or so which is a lot harder to just wait out.

make confusion stack duration rather than intensity, increase its base intensity to do substantially more damage than burning. This would make it less of a thing for just bursting down someone who manages to get off a skill right when someone’s 25 stacks of confusion land on them, and more of a pressure condition like it was in GW1.

GW1, empathy and related hexes only killed the stupid, most people reacted to being hexed with spamming their chat window that they’re afflicted so a teammate could remove it, and took no action while hexed to avoid taking damage. It was essentially crowd control. Empathy took about 10% of most player’s life per tick, so if Confusion at full condition damage was doing 2k or so damage per tick with duration stacking, that would more closely fill its role in GW1.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I would consider neither worthy of TPvP, might get away in SPvP.

Meh, sidegame. They both work really well in WvW and PvE, especially Interrupt-build in the latter. Instant 25 Might Party buff. Less reliable but much faster than other classes do it.

Carighan.6758:

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I would consider neither worthy of TPvP, might get away in SPvP.

Meh, sidegame. They both work really well in WvW and PvE, especially Interrupt-build in the latter. Instant 25 Might Party buff. Less reliable but much faster than other classes do it.

Again, they are build with Stealth and Interrupt. They are NOT stealth or interrupt builds.

I’d simply have that Mesmers get a trait somewhere that, whenever an attack that would inflict confusion hits someone that already have an existing condition (including confusion), another damaging condition—bleed, poison, burning—procs on said target.

Voila, confusion doesn’t suck and mesmers have a condition build, and it still has a random element that Anet is in love with for the Mesmer.

Confusion certainly does need a buff, but right now I can still use it rather effectively, since I can consistently keep up any where from 15 to 25 stacks of it using a pistol/confusion bleed build with max confusion duration. I find it is really effective, even if they do remove it I can apply it again in a matter of seconds. But the work and the sacrifices I have make to get those stacks, I don’t think it is properly rewarded in terms of damage. Or perhaps It could actually punish people for removing it. Which could potentially give people who passively remove conditions something to think about ^.^

iMage, attacks every 6 seconds (or there abouts), 3 seconds duration. So with 100% condition duration that’s 100% uptime.

Simple.

-Drop Illusionist’s Celererity and adjust most (not all) Illusion skills to include the effect naturally. The way this profession is built makes such a trait very difficult to balance vs. what other traits offer.

-Replace it with: Recurring Visions: Increases the duration of confusion inflicted by you by 1s when an enemy triggers your confusion (2-3s CD). The cool down is so that the effect can’t be made to last forever or build upon itself, but short enough that you can expect 1-2 triggers from a stack. The numbers are just an example. It could just as easily be +2s on kitten CD, just so long as the bonus duration doesn’t benefit from condition duration armor (or if it does adjust the numbers suitably.)

First: mess up with traits. Atm too many minor traits are confusion related, thus making quite clunky improve the build trough those. More “always nice” minor traits, less based on confusion, then have them merged in some major traits – atm the confusion major traits can be counted dow on one hand – and those should be improved too. Like blinding defubblement, we have like 2 skills to blind enemies – aside traited glamours.

Second: up the dmg. Atm confusion is simply not worth using because ppl can autoattack trough it most of the time. A plain 50% dmg cut in wvw and spvp is just too much.

Third: with better traits and dmg, there needs to be something to balance out confusion application and uptime – which is what devs should have done instead of slap a lazy “halved dmg” balancing in spvp/wvw (especially second. i speak manly from a wvw perspective). Stacks cap should be lower that other conditions, 8-10 stacks are enough to be fearsome (per 50% dmg nerf) without becoming frustrating and uncounterable by opponent.
Also, they needs to decide what role should confusion have. Be a longish but not so damaging condition with a decent uptime, to scare ppl off spamming skills – or – a very strong dmg bursty and short duration condition, that you can slap almost instantly when you see a enemy acting to have him taking a lot of dmg but only once (using the “enemy is using a skill” as dmg carrier instead of interrupt it)?
Depending on answer, application/cooldowns/behavior of confusion should change accordingly.

Long pressure condition: just limit the amount of confusion that you can apply with glamours to 5 man limit (to prevent the wvw cry all over again, un-5man-capped application was op, not the cond), and uptime (CDs and durations) should be balanced to make quite hard to get the 8-10 stacks cap with one mes, but easy to mantain few stacks throughout almost the whole the fight. Behaviour unchanged. Traits focusing on duration.
Role of condition is punish the enemy for spamming too much when fighting the mes, which will have to rely elsewhere for killing off opponents tho – this confusion isn’t really a dps weapon, but a presistent pressure for unaware ppl.

Bursty condition: skills applying it should have not-too-short CDs, but be extremely fast or istant cast and applying almost the full confusion stacks cap. Duration should be very, very short and (added behaviour) confusion stacks (1 or 2) are removed each time they trigger. Traits focusing on dmg or additional confusion features when meeting certain situations.
Role of condition is straight-up dmg, but bound to the ability to apply it when enemy is casting something, elsewhere it will decay so fast that it will hardly have chances to tick again. Can become the main dps of a skilled mes.

PvE: as long as only few major attacks from mobs/bosses are taken in account for confusion, it will stay worthless anyway. But with a reshuffled traits (manly taking away all those unskippable minor traits all related to confusion) you will be able to ingore confusion completely in pve, rather than have it always around cause you spec in illusion line and see it ticking once a while for worthless dmg.

Finally, have scepter become a declared “condition” weapon (rework auto to apply condition, not confusion ofc…) and give us pistol as straigt up power weapon.

Slightly OT, pertains to mesmer’s primary ways to apply confusion at least.

• Scepter Auto becomes Confusing Images, but only hits three times and only procs confusion on the third hit.
• Confusing Images becomes a skill similar to what the auto-attack was — a projectile that, if it hits, produces two clones instead of one.
• Illusionary Mage’s attack is a beam rather than a projectile.

…would work for me.

Double its damage