Guild Wars 2

Lets say one day Deceptive Evasion is nerfed to the following, “Create a clone at your current position when you dodge (cooldown 10 seconds)”. Would that make your rage quit the class or the whole game?

Nuka Cola.8520:

Lets say one day Deceptive Evasion is nerfed to the following, “Create a clone at your current position when you dodge (cooldown 10 seconds)”. Would that make your rage quit the class or the whole game?

Whole game… I don’t think anyone has their on dodge trait with a cooldown regardless of what it does… And Guards can heal for quite a lot with theirs… Thieves have 3 separate on dodge traits that are quite powerful (if they do it right) and ele Evasive Arcana is more OP than DE… SO yes that would make me ragequit considering the bonuses that some other classes get from their on dodge traits, WITH no cooldown.

No.

Else have a cool down per attunement.

Nec has one, Mark of Evasion with 10sec CD so they could do something stupid like that since there’s LOTS of people crying about mes spamming too many clones.

I’d be fine of course…but there would be a lot of very kitten off shatter mesmers.

Edit: And a whole lot of new immortals

I’m fine with or without it, really. I used to use it often, but since early this year, I hardly use it.

I would be kitten . It’s not so much from the nerfing of one skill but the constant nerfing that’s getting to me. This is suppose to be a class that specializes in confusion and disruption but they are slowly widdling away our ability to do just that. Remember when Moa Morph was something to be feared? Remember when we could spawn phantasms on ramparts? Remember when Phantasms always got an attack off before they were killed? Remember when regeneration was actually worth traiting into? Remember when the tooltips for our skills WERE ACTUALLY CORRECT?!

I’m starting to feel less like a master of misdirection and more like a one-trick pony.

i dont have a huge experience about mmorpgs but mesmer is the funniest class ive player so far. as a shatter spec, i would go for phantasm. if they nerf phantasms, i would go for mantra and so on.

Crossplay.2067:

Remember when the tooltips for our skills WERE ACTUALLY CORRECT?!

Can’t say that I do…

Not just kitten Shatter Mesmers. How many of us Condition specs use Deceptive Evasion to keep up our Staff Clones for Condi-spam? Hell, bad enough Winds proc
frigging Vuln. Vuln should be yanked off of that weapon – it’s not like we can’t stack it via Sword/GS, which are much more fitting for Vuln-use.

I’ve said it before, and will undoubtably do it again: ANet should’ve just tried to bring the GW1 Mesmer forward (which they had -arguably- some experience balancing) instead of putting out a different mechanic, that they’re almost constantly shredding
downward. It may have worked out better, honestly.

I would still play my mesmer.
I am honest here and say, DE is too strong. No matter how much ANet would buff the other master traits of duelling, there will be no other choice then DE for 20 in duelling.

Yesterday I just thought about, what buffs would I do, in order to make them a valid choice over DE in that slot. Whatever came into my mind was screaming OP at me. Like 3~4 seconds of distortion on signet use. 2s would be doubling it, and yet I wouldn’t take it over DE.

So yeah, DE needs a nerf at some point.

Wouldn’t make a difference to me, but I don’t think it’s necessary in any case.

With a cooldown, you couldn’t pop two clones out in quick succession – and if you do this you have no endurance left to dodge anyway.

I agree it is a powerful trait, and a no-brainer for anyone speccing 20 in duelling, but I don’t think an internal cooldown is the solution to balancing it.

We’re meant to spam clones, our traits and shatters reflect that, as well as the fact that clones pretty much die instantly, so why should they nerf it.

“If one day Anet removes clones from Mesmer, will you still play Mesmer ?”

I am not sure why they would nerf it. It is a tier 2 Major trait (not a minor trait like Guardian’s pbaoe heal on dodge) and not needed in every Mesmer build.

I think 10 sec is a bit much, but a minor c/d like 2-3 seconds could help teach players not to doge roll spam.

But I doubt they’d nerf it, since its not imbalanced.

Puandro.3245:

No.

Else have a cool down per attunement.

Mainly because that is THE most powerful dodge skill in this game… DE has already been nerfed… It used to be the 15 minor in dueling and sharper images was the major…. So I really don’t hope they are shallow enough to nerf it further…Entire builds revolve around this trait…. You cannot be a shatter Mesmer without DE working as it is now…

Varonth.5830:

I would still play my mesmer.
I am honest here and say, DE is too strong. No matter how much ANet would buff the other master traits of duelling, there will be no other choice then DE for 20 in duelling.

Yesterday I just thought about, what buffs would I do, in order to make them a valid choice over DE in that slot. Whatever came into my mind was screaming OP at me. Like 3~4 seconds of distortion on signet use. 2s would be doubling it, and yet I wouldn’t take it over DE.

So yeah, DE needs a nerf at some point.

If you want a shatter build… What bout a phantasm build… You may take duelists discipline there instead… Not every Mesmer build is a shatter build and not every build that goes 20 into dueling is picking up DE

I am ok if they nerf DE, but anet have to undo the phastasm cd nerf.

If anet does not undo the phastasm nerf then a mesmer will be pretty weak

here it would be them playing whackamole….. Nerfing DE then rebuffing phantasms would make it so that no one runs shatters at all anymore because getting shatters out reliable would be next to impossible… So then shatter would become a UP build as it were.

jportell.2197:

here it would be them playing whackamole….. Nerfing DE then rebuffing phantasms would make it so that no one runs shatters at all anymore because getting shatters out reliable would be next to impossible… So then shatter would become a UP build as it were.

not really, during the beta events. mesmer have to ability to maintain 100 percent up time with phastasm even if they shatter often. In fact, DE was kidda uncessary during the beta events which means it was possible to use other traits

loseridoit.2756:

jportell.2197:

here it would be them playing whackamole….. Nerfing DE then rebuffing phantasms would make it so that no one runs shatters at all anymore because getting shatters out reliable would be next to impossible… So then shatter would become a UP build as it were.

not really, during the beta events. mesmer have to ability to maintain 100 percent up time with phastasm even if they shatter often. In fact, DE was kidda uncessary during the beta events which means it was possible to use other traits

Yeah and that is why they upped the CDs on phantasm summons because people were griping about that…… hence why we have DE… and in this case it is now balanced out because clones don’t do damage and can be shattered often.. If the betas were like you say then we were able to constant full shatters and keep pressure up with phantasms.

jportell.2197:

loseridoit.2756:

jportell.2197:

here it would be them playing whackamole….. Nerfing DE then rebuffing phantasms would make it so that no one runs shatters at all anymore because getting shatters out reliable would be next to impossible… So then shatter would become a UP build as it were.

not really, during the beta events. mesmer have to ability to maintain 100 percent up time with phastasm even if they shatter often. In fact, DE was kidda uncessary during the beta events which means it was possible to use other traits

Yeah and that is why they upped the CDs on phantasm summons because people were griping about that…… hence why we have DE… and in this case it is now balanced out because clones don’t do damage and can be shattered often.. If the betas were like you say then we were able to constant full shatters and keep pressure up with phantasms.

i kidda missed the 9 sec swordman cd

loseridoit.2756:

jportell.2197:

loseridoit.2756:

jportell.2197:

here it would be them playing whackamole….. Nerfing DE then rebuffing phantasms would make it so that no one runs shatters at all anymore because getting shatters out reliable would be next to impossible… So then shatter would become a UP build as it were.

not really, during the beta events. mesmer have to ability to maintain 100 percent up time with phastasm even if they shatter often. In fact, DE was kidda uncessary during the beta events which means it was possible to use other traits

Yeah and that is why they upped the CDs on phantasm summons because people were griping about that…… hence why we have DE… and in this case it is now balanced out because clones don’t do damage and can be shattered often.. If the betas were like you say then we were able to constant full shatters and keep pressure up with phantasms.

i kidda missed the 9 sec swordman cd

Well I highly doubt that if ANet were to nerf DE to have a CD they would revert a previous nerf… So lets just say they don’t nerf DE.

jportell.2197:

loseridoit.2756:

jportell.2197:

loseridoit.2756:

jportell.2197:

here it would be them playing whackamole….. Nerfing DE then rebuffing phantasms would make it so that no one runs shatters at all anymore because getting shatters out reliable would be next to impossible… So then shatter would become a UP build as it were.

not really, during the beta events. mesmer have to ability to maintain 100 percent up time with phastasm even if they shatter often. In fact, DE was kidda uncessary during the beta events which means it was possible to use other traits

Yeah and that is why they upped the CDs on phantasm summons because people were griping about that…… hence why we have DE… and in this case it is now balanced out because clones don’t do damage and can be shattered often.. If the betas were like you say then we were able to constant full shatters and keep pressure up with phantasms.

i kidda missed the 9 sec swordman cd

Well I highly doubt that if ANet were to nerf DE to have a CD they would revert a previous nerf… So lets just say they don’t nerf DE.

I know

the fact is that the dependance of illusion 5 and DE is actually limiting the mesmer build choices.

loseridoit.2756:

jportell.2197:

loseridoit.2756:

jportell.2197:

loseridoit.2756:

jportell.2197:

here it would be them playing whackamole….. Nerfing DE then rebuffing phantasms would make it so that no one runs shatters at all anymore because getting shatters out reliable would be next to impossible… So then shatter would become a UP build as it were.

not really, during the beta events. mesmer have to ability to maintain 100 percent up time with phastasm even if they shatter often. In fact, DE was kidda uncessary during the beta events which means it was possible to use other traits

Yeah and that is why they upped the CDs on phantasm summons because people were griping about that…… hence why we have DE… and in this case it is now balanced out because clones don’t do damage and can be shattered often.. If the betas were like you say then we were able to constant full shatters and keep pressure up with phantasms.

i kidda missed the 9 sec swordman cd

Well I highly doubt that if ANet were to nerf DE to have a CD they would revert a previous nerf… So lets just say they don’t nerf DE.

I know

the fact is that the dependance of illusion 5 and DE is actually limiting the mesmer build choices.

SO lets see what builds need buffs

You have to remember; even if they nerfed DE people’d adapt, they’d find new builds, new tricks – and people’d cry to nerf something else. You might reason that this means it’s ok to nerf DE but this is not a train anyone wants to ride to it’s destination; I’ve seen it happen in other MMO’s where they’ve killed a class by a thousand paper cuts, each nerf on it’s own was acceptable but taken together by the end there was literally no more than a dozen players across all the US servers playing the class xD

I used to think that DE was nigh mandatory and that the difference between a Mes with and without it was night and day, but now I feel it’s more that our other traits just have either lackluster effects or odd trait placement. For example I tried fiddling with a build that used Fury on interrupt, but it was made difficult because IP shares the same tier as Imbued Diversion in GM Illusions. Compare to DE which has exquisite placement that can complement many builds.

shimmerless.4560:

I used to think that DE was nigh mandatory and that the difference between a Mes with and without it was night and day, but now I feel it’s more that our other traits just have either lackluster effects or odd trait placement. For example I tried fiddling with a build that used Fury on interrupt, but it was made difficult because IP shares the same tier as Imbued Diversion in GM Illusions. Compare to DE which has exquisite placement that can complement many builds.

if you want to play a rupt mez u play gw1 lol a rupt mez has no place in gw2.

Varonth.5830:

I would still play my mesmer.
I am honest here and say, DE is too strong. No matter how much ANet would buff the other master traits of duelling, there will be no other choice then DE for 20 in duelling.

Yesterday I just thought about, what buffs would I do, in order to make them a valid choice over DE in that slot. Whatever came into my mind was screaming OP at me. Like 3~4 seconds of distortion on signet use. 2s would be doubling it, and yet I wouldn’t take it over DE.

So yeah, DE needs a nerf at some point.

That the other master traits are “weak” or “weaker” does nto mean DE is to strong.

That you came up with OP alternatives is also a poor argument to suggest DE is to strong.

I’ve not seen any reason given as to why DE should even be considered OP, or “to strong”.

Also, just to point out, when you dodge roll spam to spawn clones you’ve giving something up, i.e. all your energy and the ability to do any more dodge rolls for a time.

On my mesmer this just makes it ezmodez….10 sec CD is a fair starting place and adjust upwards to a max of 30 based on testing

Jinks.2057:

On my mesmer this just makes it ezmodez….10 sec CD is a fair starting place and adjust upwards to a max of 30 based on testing

You best be joking.

Probably more meaningful to make it so that clones only spawn when the dodge actually evade an attack.

I don’t think it is remotely overpowered. We give up the ability to dodge later, or if we dodge to avoid an attack, the clone dies and removes another if there were three up already. If the wiki is correct, there is an effective 5 second cool down with vigor up as endurance regenerates. So it is essentially 2 phase retreats that have a chance of removing a clone. So by using DE, we loose defence, and if we dodge defensively, we actually loose a clone.

The people who think it is overpowered, do you think it it op in pve, too?

Emanuel.9781:

Jinks.2057:

On my mesmer this just makes it ezmodez….10 sec CD is a fair starting place and adjust upwards to a max of 30 based on testing

You best be joking.

Just take a look at his post history. He’s actually playing a thief, constantly screaming for mesmer nerfs.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/members/Jinks-2057/showposts

To be fair, they should probably do something about how “forced” it feels. Same with the -20% CD trait. If they’re that necessary, they deserve to be merged into the base class.

In other words, improve clone generation in general, then probably add a slight CD to Deceptive Evasion. Same total clone output, less dependent on the trait.

Leuddian.3057:

Probably more meaningful to make it so that clones only spawn when the dodge actually evade an attack.

No offense, but this is just silly. Ever notice what happens to the clone when the mes actually evades an attack? The clone eats the attack and is instantly butterflied. Absolutely no point to DE if it’s nerfed in this manner.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge#Related_traits
So we change all these too so they only trigger if an actual attack is evaded?

Dhampyr.2104:

Leuddian.3057:

Probably more meaningful to make it so that clones only spawn when the dodge actually evade an attack.

No offense, but this is just silly. Ever notice what happens to the clone when the mes actually evades an attack? The clone eats the attack and is instantly butterflied. Absolutely no point to DE if it’s nerfed in this manner.

No offense taken Ya I notice that too, I think if it does change DE to that then they would have to make the clones invulnerable, or even better – spawn a clone that does a dodge roll immediately. This way the attacker would actually see the real Mesmer and clone both rolling and would need to figure out which is the real one.

And no, some dodge traits are fine to work without evading an attack, like Ele’s drop and roll and thief’s remove cripple. I think the whole point of dodge is for defense – these offensive traits, coupled with high vigor time, simply encourages the players to just roll for the heck of it. I don’t think DE is overpowered at the moment – I just think it defeats the purpose and encourages bad game play.

loseridoit.2756:

the fact is that the dependance of illusion 5 and DE is actually limiting the mesmer build choices.

This is absolutely true – I’d be pretty interested to see new build choices and these are some pretty obvious targets. Overall the mesmer is not really overpowered (though certainly confusing to less experienced PVPers) so if there are changes here other traits or abilities should be brought up to balance.

As mentioned we do like being the class of misdirection so ideally we’d not lose options there – anyone else want illusionary persona to play the shatter animation? :P

You people are actually threatening to leave the game over such a small insignificant hypothetical nerf? Mesmer? Really?

I’m a Necromancer, you couldn’t even fathom the crap I have to deal with. “Omg I’d quit the game, you people just need to l2p and beat Mesmer”

How about nerfing passive regen and condition removal in stealth for all classes? Imagine if I regenned or condition removed while in Deathshroud. Hell, imagine if I could stomp…

Toeofdoom.6152:

This is absolutely true – I’d be pretty interested to see new build choices and these are some pretty obvious targets. Overall the mesmer is not really overpowered (though certainly confusing to less experienced PVPers) so if there are changes here other traits or abilities should be brought up to balance.

Come to think of it, we have lots of traits where I get the feeling they don’t “dare” unbug or buff them because we can already do so well in a specific few builds.

If such buffs (say, our array of interrupt-based traits, especially Halting Strike and Furious Interruption, but also the two in Chaos) came in at the same time as changes to Deceptive Evasion and Illusion 5, that’d be ok. Same total power, more build diversity.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

You people are actually threatening to leave the game over such a small insignificant hypothetical nerf? Mesmer? Really?

I’m a Necromancer, you couldn’t even fathom the crap I have to deal with. “Omg I’d quit the game, you people just need to l2p and beat Mesmer”

How about nerfing passive regen and condition removal in stealth for all classes? Imagine if I regenned or condition removed while in Deathshroud. Hell, imagine if I could stomp…

It’s not small and insignificant (not currently using it in my build, but when I do, it’s critical), and just because a class got nerfed, that doesn’t rectifiy any other nerf. What kind of twisted logic is that? And btw., mesmers have been nerfed way harder before.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

You people are actually threatening to leave the game over such a small insignificant hypothetical nerf? Mesmer? Really?

I’m a Necromancer, you couldn’t even fathom the crap I have to deal with. “Omg I’d quit the game, you people just need to l2p and beat Mesmer”

How about nerfing passive regen and condition removal in stealth for all classes? Imagine if I regenned or condition removed while in Deathshroud. Hell, imagine if I could stomp…

Necro’s not perfect, but it’s in a pretty good place. Hell, I’ve wrecked Mesmers on my Condimancer, 1v1. Not to mention, Well/Mark madness. DS UI got a much-needed
overhaul, Pets are (while still being worked on, AI-wise) pretty usable. Lifesteal could still use a bit of tie-in with Healing Power stat, though. Also, Necro’s crappy access to
Stability is a nightmare.

Of course, Mesmer’s just as fragged for Stability. Mantras are the battered spouse of Mesmer skills, many would tell you. (Although Fay’s got some interesting builds for ’em). Phant regen, while good, still relies on an easily-dispatched minion. I-Membrane was nerfed some time ago. LoS and pathing are a plague upon multiple Mesmer abilities, and certain Necro skills (S Grasp/Dark Path, for instance).

Fact is, it could be a lot worse … both professions could get screwed like Engineers tend to.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Stealth, invulnerability, confusion, and portal stomps. Sure, Necro is way better off than Mesmer. You’re acting as though Mesmers are on the same level as Necromancers, when they are far above it, almost to the extent of Elementalist. Which they also deny having the ability to burst and bunker at the same time.

Right. You also forgot to mention Necromancer’s unparalleled stacking of Bleed, decent Poison/Chill/Blind access. Let’s also bring in: Boon inversion, Condition inversion, luscious Health bar. No, Necros aren’t ridiculous burst. They don’t need to be. All that is necessary there is to fix the Stability issue, pathing, and some CC.
(namely, as an “attrition” class, Necro could do with more snare/lockdown mojo.
I also wouldn’t mind more options in the Poison department.)

Here’s the deal: Mesmers pack the maneuverability/damage mitigation abilities that they have, due to the design of the class as a “duelist” caster. As such, Mesmers are
a finesse class. They can -with the right build- tank, but in general, rely on active defense. By contrast, Necromancer’s defense is passive. They sit there, shrug off
your crap, and slam you hard. Thus, my comments RE: what Necromancers honestly need, ability-wise.

Goodness TheMightyAltroll, you’d think a Mesmer stole your sweet roll. Fact is, Scepter with Superior Earth on a Condimancer stacks Bleeds like no tomorrow.
Note also that I said unparalleled stacking of Bleed, decent access to Poison/Blind/Chill. Do try to troll me with the correct quotes or paraphrasing, if you please.

Mesmers don’t remove Conditions in Stealth, that is an ability Thieves with 10+ Shadow Arts possess. Now, with Prismatic Understanding (30 Chaos), a Mesmer can randomly gain Regen in Stealth. Note the part about randomly. Also, for Thieves to Regen in stealth (and do so well), it is a 30-Trait burn in Shadow Arts. Shadow Protector might only be a 10-pointer, but it doesn’t stack for crapola. Thus, most SA Thieves’ll take condi-drop as a 10-point Major.

As for teleportation. Flesh Wurm says Hello. (Like Portal, you drop Wurm first, then blip back when needed) Also, Spectral Return wants a word with you.

Mark of Blood would like to speak to you, RE: Regen. (Especially its Trait-given doppelganger, that triggers on dodge.) We also need to have a nice chat about
Lifesteal, and Blood Magic in general. (While Lifesteal could proc better, it is still
a free health regain. One could consider it a quasi-Regen)

Boon Removal. The only reason Mesmer’s variant still works under the circumstances you describe = the fact that Null Field/Arcane Thievery are equal parts Boon-raep and Condition-drop. We both know, however, that a “certain” Well also does damage, as well as other fun things …

Condition Removal: Consume Conditions, Putrid Mark and multiple other options.
Versus Null/Arcane Thievery/Power Cleanse. With Inspiration Traits, add Mender’s Feedback on heal. Truth is, Necro is definately winning the Condi-removal war.
(Especially when removing Conditions with Consume Conditions grants you more Health.)

Stealth, practically invulnerable.

Flesh Wurm… you’re actually comparing Flesh Wurm to shadow step, blink, or portal? I can’t take you seriously after that. Also Spectral Walk isn’t good enough to merit it’s overly long CD.

Mark of Blood regen? Lifesteal? BLood magic? Have you tried sustaining on leeching/regen? Honestly…

Well of Corruption? Srsly bro? That has LESS boon conversion than “Convert Boon” for more CD. Don’t make me laugh.

By the way, Consume Conditions and Putrid Mark are the only solid condition removal we have that aren’t laughable. If you’re thinking of Plague Signet, I’m just going to say ‘lol’

You really enjoy overestimating Necromancer’s capabilities, don’t you? I can stack 20-25 bleeds just using autoattack with a sigil of Earth on Ranger shortbow. I can stack 16-20 bleeds, 20-25 vulnerability, and 3-7 seconds of burn AoE off my Engineer’s grenade 1 (Not to mention the other skills). You obviously don’t have much experience with other classes, so I’ll just say this: trust me, Necromancer/Warrior either needs a huge kitten buff, or Mesmer/Elementalist/Ranger need gigantic nerfs.

I have around 1700 hours on my mesmer equipped with 3 legendaries, T3 armor set and virtually every rare dye there is. If they did this I will transfer those legendaries to a guardian.