Guild Wars 2

Well, TheMightyAltroll … you didn’t ask for “good” versions, you mentioned certain abilities and I mentioned Necromancer equivalents. Hell, I suppose you also forgot
a couple of months ago, the whole bit about the Devs “looking to share Portal-like mechanics with other classes?” I distinctly remember Necro and Engi getting mentions in the multiple threads that followed that biz. As for underestimation, I regularily cap Bleed stacks on my Necro. I sure as hells cap ‘em better on him, than on Ele/Mesmer/or Thief. Regarding Well of Corruption and Wells in general, it’s all about timing.
As for which class needs nerf or buff: check most of my posting history on this kind of crap. I’d like to say I’m known for fully supporting buffs for weaker classes/class specs, instead of this silly kitten nerfing across the board BS. Folk what cry “OP” just find a new thing to carp about. Unfortunately, I am not an ANet dev, thus you can see exactly how much my opinion really counts.

Last time I checked, this was a mesmer forum. If you want to cry about necros being underpowered, please proceed to do so in the corresponding forum.

Iruwen.3164:

Last time I checked, this was a mesmer forum. If you want to cry about necros being underpowered, please proceed to do so in the corresponding forum.

In his defense, Iruwen, I did challenge his assertions. This would logically continue the argument.

Advent.6193:

Well, TheMightyAltroll … you didn’t ask for “good” versions, you mentioned certain abilities and I mentioned Necromancer equivalents. Hell, I suppose you also forgot
a couple of months ago, the whole bit about the Devs “looking to share Portal-like mechanics with other classes?” I distinctly remember Necro and Engi getting mentions in the multiple threads that followed that biz. As for underestimation, I regularily cap Bleed stacks on my Necro. I sure as hells cap ‘em better on him, than on Ele/Mesmer/or Thief. Regarding Well of Corruption and Wells in general, it’s all about timing.
As for which class needs nerf or buff: check most of my posting history on this kind of crap. I’d like to say I’m known for fully supporting buffs for weaker classes/class specs, instead of this silly kitten nerfing across the board BS. Folk what cry “OP” just find a new thing to carp about. Unfortunately, I am not an ANet dev, thus you can see exactly how much my opinion really counts.

If you think Necromancers are the king of bleeds, then I’m sorry to say, but you’re just not playing those other classes properly. I know a Thief that can give a player capped bleed and 30 seconds worth of poison/cripple off Deathblossom in a very short period of time (Because Caltrops) (Also granted Mesmer doesn’t have much access to bleed, they have access to confusion which is a hell of alot better imo). Regardless, Mesmers don’t need a buff, and again: Either nerf the hell out of Mesmers(And a couple other classes), or buff the hell out of Necromancers/Warriors

Good discussion, though. Atleast you’re one of the few people that can give counter arguments on these forums. All the Thief players do is go “nou l2p”

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

(Also granted Mesmer doesn’t have much access to bleed, they have access to confusion which is a hell of alot better imo)

Just gonna say thank god balance is not based off your opinion… Mesmer confusion only stacks for about 3 seconds in general our phantasms that inflict confusion don’t proc our bonuses and confusion is the ONLY condition in this game that doesn’t hurt you at all if you wait for 3 seconds… Last I checked bleeds ticked no matter what and in tourneys even in my fully bunkered out guard with runes of melandru and more condition removal traits than you can shake a stick at bleeds are the TOP killer on me… This is from often fighting on a point against one or 2 enemies… If it is one Mesmer and one necro bleeds still win… If you were to tell mesmers that one of their AAs guaranteed X stacks of bleed we would jump for joy because a condition Mesmer might have a chance at being more than a squishy glamour bomber(don’t even mention WOC because that is random and it almost never works in our favor)

Rofl, when was the last time ‘waiting’ three seconds didn’t get you killed? Confusion is widely considered the BEST condition in the game, I honestly wish that my Necro had access to that, or atleast burn. Don’t try to downplay that ridiculous condition. Almost all of my conversion kills were done by confusion. It’s incredibly strong.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Rofl, when was the last time ‘waiting’ three seconds didn’t get you killed? Confusion is widely considered the BEST condition in the game, I honestly wish that my Necro had access to that, or atleast burn. Don’t try to downplay that ridiculous condition. Almost all of my conversion kills were done by confusion. It’s incredibly strong.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupt_Boon
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Corruption
You were saying? And its widely considered the best condition by button mashers…. Bleed is by far superior because it stacks much easier for a Mesmer to get the same amount of stacks of confusion that a necro can of bleeds or duration of poison they would have to be specced for nothing else with not much in the way of survivability… And also in sPvP confusion just sucks… Does half the damage that it does in the rest of the game… which is ridiculous because we really don’t have reliable access to any other conditions… Even engineers have the ability to do more stacks and longer duration than us WITH NO TRAITS. And also how many condition cleanses do you have Mr. Necro? oh whats that you can lose all with just one heal skill… Man I wish mesmers could do that…

And here we go back to the CB/WoC argument you people love putting up. I’m just going to save you the time jportell and say “Scroll up” I’ve already countered all your recycled arguments.

Necromancer doesn’t even come remotely close to having strong bleeds or poison compared to other classes. My autoattack on half the classes when specced properly will do more than all of my Necro utilities combined. In less time. Mesmer’s confusion is a god tier condition, you can pretend it isn’t all you want, but I’ve used Mesmer. I’ve seen how fast it drops people compared to my Necro.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

And here we go back to the CB/WoC argument you people love putting up. I’m just going to save you the time jportell and say “Scroll up”

Necromancer doesn’t even come remotely close to having strong bleeds or poison compared to other classes. My autoattack on half the classes when specced properly will do more than all of my Necro utilities combined. In less time. Mesmer’s confusion is a god tier condition, you can pretend it isn’t all you want, but I’ve used Mesmer. I’ve seen how fast it drops people compared to my Necro.

And it has been said that necros are supposed to be that attrition style class… Not duelists….. And I was not arguing against anything else that was being said but your assertion that confusion is the GOD condition is just ridiculous… Bleeding is by far worse (for the victim)… It can be really damaging over time and lets not forget the bug on scepter where the duration is 5 seconds and not 4 :P And necro AA is guaranteed to land bleeding twice and then poison… and then you have grasping dead which is a cripple and a bleed… Please tell me how its SOO hard for you to stack bleeds compared to a Mesmer stacking confusion… A tourney built Mesmer will not be throwing anything over maybe more than 8-10 stacks of confusion on you and even then most people in sPvP brush it off because it’s damage is LOW TIER compared to the ticking damage of bleeding/poison/burning… And by the time the Mesmer has you up to 8-10 stacks of confusion the first 3 are going to be wearing off…

And by the time my Necro has you up to 8-10 stacks of bleed, the first 6 are going to be wearing off.

Also, I’d like to see you play a game of attrition with Necromancer.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

And by the time my Necro has you up to 8-10 stacks of bleed, the first 6 are going to be wearing off.

Also, I’d like to see you play a game of attrition with Necromancer.

Done it… Necros can absolutely wreck shatter mesmers. Wanna know why? WE HAVE NO CONDITION REMOVAL! We are an unlucky class that gets none zip zilch nada in our heal skill… And if you are using a staff I imagine you can throw down a putrid mark as soon as you get all dat confusion and boom its on us now simply put condition necro will destroy a shatter Mesmer flat out and a condition necro against a confusion Mesmer can use one heal skill and tada the Mesmer has to wait quite sometime to even attempt to fully rack up confusion stacks mean while you can have 4 of 5 attacks sending conditions to your target and if you have confusion dagger 4 can send it right back to the Mesmer (funny thing we have to use a buggy slot skill with a long cooldown to do something like this). The simple fact is you have amazing condition cleanses/transfers in your class without sacrificing much elsewhere….

We have 3 reliable condition cleanses. We have no solid passive condition cleanse. We have little to no bursting capability. We have next to no access to boons. 0 Mobility. Deathshroud is broken, and bad. All you’re doing is whining about Necro condition application, which absolutely sucks compared to any other class including your precious Mesmer. I’ve seen plenty of Mesmers that dominate extremely skilled condition Necromancers, even Khalifa has been dominated by Mesmers.

Stop trying to pretend Mesmer is underpowered, you aren’t helping your argument. I’m actually laughing at how much you’re sounding like a WvW Thief going “Omg my dager storm neds buff, lawl my stealth is so bad i need teh bufz0r lol u necroz r so OP!@!”

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

We have 3 reliable condition cleanses. We have no solid passive condition cleanse. We have little to no bursting capability. We have next to no access to boons. 0 Mobility. Deathshroud is broken, and bad. All you’re doing is whining about Necro condition application, which absolutely sucks compared to any other class including your precious Mesmer. I’ve seen plenty of Mesmers that dominate extremely skilled condition Necromancers, even Khalifa has been dominated by Mesmers.

Stop trying to pretend Mesmer is underpowered, you aren’t helping your argument. I’m actually laughing at how much you’re sounding like a WvW Thief going “Omg my dager storm neds buff, lawl my stealth is so bad i need teh bufz0r lol u necroz r so OP!@!”

You are clearly just trolling now… Hey at least you have passive condition removal (minions removing one ever 10 seconds EACH MINION REMOVES ONE EVERY 10 Seconds) so you can remove 4 conditions every 10 seconds I have seen necros take minions for that reason…. But its clear that at this point you are just trolling saying everything that is Mesmer is just so OP it needs nerfed into uselessness… and yeah necros may have bad access to boons but you have traits that give you boons upon entering and exiting death shroud and you can also send ALL conditions you have to a foe… Necros may not be in the best state ever but I know of some r49+ necros that may like to have a word with you about them completely sucking in all aspects as you make them sound here. Anyways enjoy and cheers….

You literally know nothing of Necro to think any of these things are truly viable. In order to have passive condition removal, we would have to be Minionmancers, a very specific build with very specific purposes.

And you act as if we are seriously interested in how well each individual player can play their Necro. We don’t. Why? Because this is the Mesmer forum. Let me click over to the Necro forum, then I care.
Seriously? I couldn’t care any less how Mesmer and Necro compare. As long as both are fun to play, all is fine. As long as both aren’t due to numerous bugs, incomplete traits and whacky combinations, both need serious work. And that’s all that matters and should matter as a developer. Whether TheMightyAltroll got stomped on his necro or not is not important to the development process because class integrity has to be balanced before class power (since changing the former necessarily destroys the latter again). Or, in this case, class accessibility.

Congratulations, you’ve contributed nothing. We strayed off to a “Who’s worse” fight because I was laughing at how people were threatening to leave if you put a 10 second internal cooldown on a Dodge trait.

Anyhow, have fun crying over a hypothetical nerf that’s so totally GAMEBREAKING@!434! sarcasm

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Congratulations, you’ve contributed nothing. We strayed off to a “Who’s worse” fight because I was laughing at how people were threatening to leave if you put a 10 second internal cooldown on a Dodge trait.

Anyhow, have fun crying over a hypothetical nerf that’s so totally GAMEBREAKING@!434! sarcasm

Would be game breaking but to be fair every other on dodge trait would need nerfed as well… Currently the only one that has a GCD is ele evasive arcana and that is because they can heal back up or inflict 8 stacks of bleeding with a dodge….This thread was started as a hypothetical “How would we adapt if…” and you have derailed it by miles…. Were sorry some Mesmer player took your lunch money somewhere… but the Mesmer forum is not the place to just throw around how much you hate a certain class.

if it was nerfed? wouldn’t care much, i love it but wouldnt make a difference to me, however if our on dodge gets nerfed then everyones should, so this particular road i think would hurt everyone.

Imagine the outrage if somebody proposed to nerf these the same way.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dodge#Related_traits

Dude, Necromancer’s dodge Mark ALREADY has a 10 second cooldown.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Dude, Necromancer’s dodge Mark ALREADY has a 10 second cooldown.

Could that possibly be because it does more than one thing? It causes damage heals and leaves conditions…. Mesmer clones only do damage in shatters or if they crit (and even then they inherit none of our condition stacks so you won’t really notice it)

This topic still going on? There is really no valid reason why DE is OP, you get +1 clone and is set up for shatter fodder, thus is why shatter builds will always take it.

Certain builds don’t bother with it, because it’s not needed meaning other options are still viable if you choose not to build that way.

End of story.

If you got rolled by a shatter mes don’t QQ and ask for a nerf to part of the build just L2P, you see the mes dogging around popping out clones? GUESS WHO CAN’T DOGE FOR THE NEXT 5 SECONDS. (Technically 6 since you’d have to attack after the last doge then let vigor proc)

This has going off topic with you guys, but yeah anyone who dies to retaliation and confusion are doing it wrong.

You pick and chose your skills at that time to not die, not just keep fighting as normal. Yes it can be a pain and more preassure than a normal condi, however can be midigated if played right.

On the other hand, condi GS mes with sigil of earth and lyssa runes…

TW > Mirror image > decoy/doge = Face melting bleeds

DE is not OP. It is a core mechanic of many but not all Mesmer builds. Why is this thread still going?

jportell.2197:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Lets say one day Deceptive Evasion is nerfed to the following, “Create a clone at your current position when you dodge (cooldown 10 seconds)”. Would that make your rage quit the class or the whole game?

Whole game… I don’t think anyone has their on dodge trait with a cooldown regardless of what it does… And Guards can heal for quite a lot with theirs… Thieves have 3 separate on dodge traits that are quite powerful (if they do it right) and ele Evasive Arcana is more OP than DE… SO yes that would make me ragequit considering the bonuses that some other classes get from their on dodge traits, WITH no cooldown.

Actually, thief acro VII has a cooldown on it.

Arganthium.5638:

jportell.2197:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Lets say one day Deceptive Evasion is nerfed to the following, “Create a clone at your current position when you dodge (cooldown 10 seconds)”. Would that make your rage quit the class or the whole game?

Whole game… I don’t think anyone has their on dodge trait with a cooldown regardless of what it does… And Guards can heal for quite a lot with theirs… Thieves have 3 separate on dodge traits that are quite powerful (if they do it right) and ele Evasive Arcana is more OP than DE… SO yes that would make me ragequit considering the bonuses that some other classes get from their on dodge traits, WITH no cooldown.

Actually, thief acro VII has a cooldown on it.

true… But caltrops, might, and swiftness do not… Mesmer has ONE on dodge trait…

Xavi.6591:

DE is not OP. It is a core mechanic of many but not all Mesmer builds. Why is this thread still going?

Because this thread has nothing to do with DE being OP, balanced or not. Just a question if it would bother you to the point of permanently re-rolling to another class or leave the game since this and illusionist celerity are our most used and best traits.

For spvp/wvw id be a bit annoyed (but id deal with it)
For pve… wouldnt care;ive been considering removing it from my build just because it destroys one of my phantasms if i have three out(which is often in dungeons)

jportell.2197:

Arganthium.5638:

jportell.2197:

Nuka Cola.8520:

Lets say one day Deceptive Evasion is nerfed to the following, “Create a clone at your current position when you dodge (cooldown 10 seconds)”. Would that make your rage quit the class or the whole game?

Whole game… I don’t think anyone has their on dodge trait with a cooldown regardless of what it does… And Guards can heal for quite a lot with theirs… Thieves have 3 separate on dodge traits that are quite powerful (if they do it right) and ele Evasive Arcana is more OP than DE… SO yes that would make me ragequit considering the bonuses that some other classes get from their on dodge traits, WITH no cooldown.

Actually, thief acro VII has a cooldown on it.

true… But caltrops, might, and swiftness do not… Mesmer has ONE on dodge trait…

Indeed, although the swiftness is… Well, pathetically short, lol.

Either way, I for one don’t think that DE should be nerfed. If you really can’t counter a mes who’s running it, go play a mes in PvP yourself. Learn it. Live it. Love it. And then go back to your other class and use what you learned to counter DE.

Arganthium.5638:

Either way, I for one don’t think that DE should be nerfed. If you really can’t counter a mes who’s running it, go play a mes in PvP yourself. Learn it. Live it. Love it. And then go back to your other class and use what you learned to counter DE.

Why would I go back to any other profession besides an Elementalist or Guardian after playing a Mesmer?

Mesmers are in a very good place now, balance wise. That’s not to say they should be nerfed, but other professions should be brought up. If you genuinely think otherwise, you’re just being delusional.

Seryi.7936:

Arganthium.5638:

Either way, I for one don’t think that DE should be nerfed. If you really can’t counter a mes who’s running it, go play a mes in PvP yourself. Learn it. Live it. Love it. And then go back to your other class and use what you learned to counter DE.

Why would I go back to any other profession besides an Elementalist or Guardian after playing a Mesmer?

Mesmers are in a very good place now, balance wise. That’s not to say they should be nerfed, but other professions should be brought up. If you genuinely think otherwise, you’re just being delusional.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here.

My comment was directed towards people who don’t want/like to play mesmer.

It was saying that, sure, DE is strong, but it’s able to be countered.

Then you asked me why I would suggest that you swap professions.

And I’m pretty sure your comment about being delusional was directed towards me.

Wat.

Arganthium.5638:

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here.

My comment was directed towards people who don’t want/like to play mesmer.

It was saying that, sure, DE is strong, but it’s able to be countered.

Then you asked me why I would suggest that you swap professions.

And I’m pretty sure your comment about being delusional was directed towards me.

Wat.

To clarify, I’m not calling you delusional, it was more a general statement about how Mesmers are in a good state of balance at the moment. If anything, my comment was directed more towards anyone who defends Mesmers and kittens on players of other professions who complain despite said other professions not always being on remotely the same tier as Mesmers.

Currently HGH engi is the strongest build in this game and its sad indeed. :/ there is a difference between viable and over the top mesmers have one or two viable PvP builds engineer builds are over the top

Seryi.7936:

Arganthium.5638:

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here.

My comment was directed towards people who don’t want/like to play mesmer.

It was saying that, sure, DE is strong, but it’s able to be countered.

Then you asked me why I would suggest that you swap professions.

And I’m pretty sure your comment about being delusional was directed towards me.

Wat.

To clarify, I’m not calling you delusional, it was more a general statement about how Mesmers are in a good state of balance at the moment. If anything, my comment was directed more towards anyone who defends Mesmers and kittens on players of other professions who complain despite said other professions not always being on remotely the same tier as Mesmers.

Oh.

Personally, I find all professions to be on about the same tier right now. Except that maybe Rangers and Necros could use very slight buffs. That’s about it though.

I’d just drop the trait and change specs. I mostly wvw though, for spvp i’d move to another class unless they did something worth a kitten like boost mantras and fix certain phantasms.

Deceptive evasion is the only way to get 3 clone shatters consistently, so they’d have to reduce cd’s on clone skills to compensate, or increase the damage of shatters to compensate for the loss of sustained.

I just think the real problem is phantasm damage makes too much of a portion of the mesmer’s damage alongside shatters. So you have shatter, blurred frenzy, and phantasm that all can do over 4k damage each on fairly low cd’s while classes other than thief or warrior simply have much longer cooldowns on their hard hitting skills.

You can prevent the creation of phantasms as well as avoid their damage, plus they can be destroyed easily. That’s why they “hit hard”. If they hit at all.

Still, a nerf to Deceptive Evasion would hurt. A lot.

Mesmer’s are undeniably the slowest class because we have terrible boon uptime (namely swiftness). We really can’t escape from a fight unless we set up a Portal before the fight even starts (which is stupid in sPVP), so we need to stay alive as long as possible. Mesmer doesn’t have the mobility of the elementalist for gap control (Staff 2 and Blink help some, but we don’t have an OH S%^& button like Ride the Lightning) nor do we have the “tankiness” of the necromancer. We rely on being tricky and hard to hit through clone spam, some invisibility (depending on utilities), and our invincibility skills (F4 and Sword 2).

The recent changes to our down state (the big red arrow) and the fact that we can be marked unless we frequently pop in and out of stealth were big nerfs to our survivability. Nerfing Deceptive Evasion might make Mesmer a lot less effective in sPVP, and it would kill a lot of shatter builds that NEED those extra 2 clones for damage.