Guild Wars 2

Hello I’ve been running with a condition build with scepter/torch : staff (WvW) and applying scepters torment is pretty deadly if they don’t remove it. But the effect is not reliable, or atleast I haven’t been able to reliably apply it.

From my own observations it seems that I have to be almost on top of him for it to apply, and even then it doesn’t always apply. What am I missing? How do you guys make sure it is always applied?

EDIT: I’m not looking for ways to make sure an attack is blocked, I wanna know how to apply the torment once it is blocked
Thanks

From what I’ve noticed, someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but the torment applies only when you are in range of being able to spawn the clone that also gets spawned when you block an attack with the scepter. If the clone fails to process for whatever reason (blind a typical culprit), the torment seems not to process either. Whether this is intended or not, I don’t know, but that’s what I’ve noticed from using it.

So there is a maximum range on the torment, it’s about 900 iirc.

Additionally, the skill takes a moment between the block and the time it applies the torment. It sorta phases you to one side, spawns a clone, and applies torment. If you dodge during the time before it applies the torment but after the block, you’ll interrupt the skill.

In general, applying the torment is more an issue of using the skill properly than anything else. There aren’t really any ‘tricks’ to it.

When you block the enemy make sure you…
1. …are in range (900) to summon a clone and apply damage + torment
2. …don’t do any other actions since if you spam 1 for example, or just roll, you will override the old action.

The chain is: defensive position → block → punish. If you do something right after the block, the chain will be interrupter and no damage, nor torment will be applied.

The skill needs to be totally reworked. Look at how easy it is for every other class that has access to Torment. I mean it has SERIOUS issues:

1) You are Rooted
2) Dodge at wrong time its wasted
3) They move out of range(900) and its wasted
4) They dodge its wasted

Its FAR harder to apply it with Mesmer than it is for any other class. It has been an issue since it came out and it is about time they got around to fixing it.

It should have been made Aura
Its range needs to be changed to 1200 to make it a threat to range classes as well

These 2 changes alone would fix 99% of the issue with the skill . Making it so that you cant move during it is stupid. Then you also get into the fact that it procs on clones, minions, pets and other summoned NPCs so it getting onto the right target can be very tough.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The skill needs to be totally reworked. Look at how easy it is for every other class that has access to Torment. I mean it has SERIOUS issues:

1) You are Rooted
2) Dodge at wrong time its wasted
3) They move out of range(900) and its wasted
4) They dodge its wasted

Its FAR harder to apply it with Mesmer than it is for any other class. It has been an issue since it came out and it is about time they got around to fixing it.

It should have been made Aura
Its range needs to be changed to 1200 to make it a threat to range classes as well

These 2 changes alone would fix 99% of the issue with the skill . Making it so that you cant move during it is stupid. Then you also get into the fact that it procs on clones, minions, pets and other summoned NPCs so it getting onto the right target can be very tough.

Actually to me, those are minor issues.

My annoyance is when I block a pet, minion or clone instead of my intended target.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

1) You are Rooted

False.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

2) Dodge at wrong time its wasted

True, this one is annoying.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

3) They move out of range(900) and its wasted

Yes….I fail to see the problem here. You want your torment to have infinite range just cause?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

4) They dodge its wasted

Yes…I fail to see the problem here. You want your torment to be undodgeable just cause?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Its FAR harder to apply it with Mesmer than it is for any other class.

Wat. Lets see, necros get an aoe 3 stacks of torment with a slow obvious skill that can easily be dodged with a 40s cooldown. Thieves get 2 stacks of torment on a skill that literally can not be spammed, along with (at most if traited for it) 4 stacks of torment on a minimum 36s cooldown that can be easily avoided or nullified since they’re on-hit effects of a venom.

Lets see, easy ways to apply torment…Ooh, I’ve got one. How about a skill that applies 5 stacks of torment guaranteed for 8s base duration if it lands, that also blocks an attack, spawns a clone, does damage, and is on a 12 Second Cooldown.

If you think mesmers have it bad with torment application, you’re absolutely mad.

Continuing on…

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

It should have been made Aura

Wat.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Its range needs to be changed to 1200 to make it a threat to range classes as well

Or, you know, since the scepter is a 900 range weapon, 900 range makes actual sense?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Making it so that you cant move during it is stupid.

Again, this is not a thing.

Then you also get into the fact that it procs on clones, minions, pets and other summoned NPCs so it getting onto the right target can be very tough.

Or you could just play better and block the right attack. Sometimes I want to block an attack from a pet or summoned NPC. If I’m fighting a phantasm mesmer, I don’t care about blocking that random scepter auto, I care about blocking that swordsman about to chunk me for 5k damage.

This particular skill demands skilled play for effective use. If you can’t use it effectively, that means you’re not skilled enough.

@OP: I think your problem is dodging during the interval between the block and the application, that’s the only thing that could cause it to fail so often as you are describing.

Ah, nice to see that was changed. It used to be that you were rooted when you used it. Then again i havent used Scepter in several months. The problem with the range being that someone at 900+ range can hit you while you are suing the block and suffer nothing from it…

“Thieves get 2 stacks of torment on a skill that literally can not be spammed, " How do you define spam? They can hit with it a MINIMUM 3 times, this is not even counting the initiative they can regain during the attacks so it could be 4 times. So that could be 8 stacks as well as the damage from the skills, damage from traits and possible sigils such as Earth AND it moves them AWAY…

They can hit you and damage you and they SHOULD be affected by it. I mean whats the point in it if they can hit yo and then dodge at the right time to then have damaged you and dodged the damaging condition – what have you gained from that?

Lets see, the Necro one is an AoE that involves a Immobilize as well. Now at times the immobilze can be more valuable than the actual condition. Lets face it they have pretty much every other condition in the game so they DONT need it to be 5 stacks to still be a threat.

• Compare that to Mesmer that DOESNT involve RNG

Necro = AoE with Immobilize, deals damage

Thief = Can be hit 4 times in a row, deals damage, moves them away

Mesmer = Block with a CHANCE to inflict it if you are not forced to dodge or if they dodge or stun you. No affect to classes that get to 900 range.

Then you get onto the fact its a 2 second duration. Plenty easy to i dont know – stop attacking wait for the block to end and then continue attacking they are little threat when using the block anyway as they cant attack you.

Even if they attack, How many classes can just remove it/send it back in seconds? A possible counter tactic could be see them with scepter, swap in AT wait for them to shield take the damage and instantly send it back, Necros can do this as well or they could just use it for a bigger heal.

While the skill is nice, when it works it still has to many issues does it having a higher stack make it worth while being that much harder to land than just using a skill and boom them having it?

Having to WAIT after you have made the block for it to proc is just silly. It should be instant. They attack, you block they have torment. It should not be They attack, You block, You wait, they attack some more, then they get the condition.

Why nobody mention the Warrior torment.. Easiest to land and most OP since it’s hard to cleans in the way that it applies over time..

Anyways, since you are using torch I’m going to guess you use prismatic understanding like all the other FOTM’ers .. It is likely you are using your scepter 2 while having the aegis boon and the boon is taking the block rather then the scepter.. So you see “block” and think u landed it, but you really didn’t.

dank.3680:

Why nobody mention the Warrior torment.. Easiest to land and most OP since it’s hard to cleans in the way that it applies over time..

Anyways, since you are using torch I’m going to guess you use prismatic understanding like all the other FOTM’ers .. It is likely you are using your scepter 2 while having the aegis boon and the boon is taking the block rather then the scepter.. So you see “block” and think u landed it, but you really didn’t.

That is a good point about Aegis taking the block rather than the Scepter which means wait for Aegis to fall off before using Scepter #2 block.

@Ash: Don’t feel like going through your fail logic on my phone, so I won’t, but I will say one thing which is the thief torment shadow steps you away. In order to spam it, you must have your back to a wall.

@Dank: I think weaponskill blocks take priority over aegis, not 100% sure on that.

Pyroatheist.9031:

@Ash: Don’t feel like going through your fail logic on my phone, so I won’t, but I will say one thing which is the thief torment shadow steps you away. In order to spam it, you must have your back to a wall.

I couldnt care what you think anyway. So no need to waste your time in thinking that anyone who thinks X skill isnt that great is a “noob” or using the skill wrong simply because someone SO amazing like you can use it.

The skill DOES have issues that need to be fixed, means nothing if you dont think the same way. That doesnt change that people DO think it needs to be fixed.

Look at Thief and Warrior – what do they have to do for it to proc? use the skill in range, thats it nothing more. Meanwhile Mesmer has to use a Block, not attack BEFORE the block or AFTER the block and then hope it doesnt get dodged…

Ash loves to make these wild exaggerations about how much better other classes have it than mesmers. His logic is that the mesmer should have the best of every class and none of the weaknesses. “Failed logic” is the best way to describe it. Pretty tiresome to read because it drowns out the actual, discussion-worthy issues.

Joonks.7501:

Ash loves to make these wild exaggerations about how much better other classes have it than mesmers. His logic is that the mesmer should have the best of every class and none of the weaknesses. “Failed logic” is the best way to describe it. Pretty tiresome to read because it drowns out the actual, discussion-worthy issues.

NOT once have i said any of that. Simply saying a skill needs to be fixed does not say or even imply that i want the skill to be better than any other class, i just want it to be a bit more balanced.

Warrior – 12seconds Torment 5stacks, 15 second cool down
Thief – 5 seconds Torment 2stack, usable 4 Times (if spammed)
Mesmer – 8 seconds Torment 5seconds 12 seconds cool down

what do they have different? The fact that Thief and Warrior just need to be in range. Mesmer has to be in Range, Cant use any other attacks or dodge for 2 seconds. It can be dodged by all 3 yes. If the Mesmer dodges at wrong time, its wasted..

In my opinion Mesmer version is the weakest. It takes ONE button press for Warrior or Thief, 2 for Necro (DS and then skill) but they can continue to attack/dodge afterwards = Mesmer cant attack or dodge for 2 seconds or risk losing the whole thing and the torment not proccing.

Then you get into the fact that Warrior one does extra damage after and lasts longer, while the Thief instantly makes range after using it.

You can’t cherry pick skills and compare them between professions in an effort to “balance.” With your logic there should be only one profession in the entire game.

This “X class does this better so why can’t I” will go around and around forever. There is nothing egregious enough about mesmer’s ability to apply torment that it needs to be changed.

Ok, now that I’m on a computer, I can wade through this mess.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

The problem with the range being that someone at 900+ range can hit you while you are suing the block and suffer nothing from it…

Yes, that’s the point of range. Someone with 1200 range beats someone with 900 range. I’m not entirely sure what part of this you don’t understand. You don’t get to have infinite range torment application just because you whine about it.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

How do you define spam? They can hit with it a MINIMUM 3 times, this is not even counting the initiative they can regain during the attacks so it could be 4 times. So that could be 8 stacks as well as the damage from the skills, damage from traits and possible sigils such as Earth AND it moves them AWAY…

So the thief skill applies torment, then shadowsteps them about 900 range away. There are 2 ways to do this more than once. One way is to have your back to a wall and spam it. This will never happen. The other way would be to burn cooldowns like steal, shadowstep, or that one signet to repeatedly shadowstep to the target in order to apply like 6 torment. This would be stupid, and the thief would be bad.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

They can hit you and damage you and they SHOULD be affected by it. I mean whats the point in it if they can hit yo and then dodge at the right time to then have damaged you and dodged the damaging condition – what have you gained from that?

Uh, dodging at the right time is called counterplay, or skilled play. That’s working as intended.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Lets see, the Necro one is an AoE that involves a Immobilize as well. Now at times the immobilze can be more valuable than the actual condition.

So the necro skill involves an additional condition that necessarily means the torment will do less damage? Ok. Also, the necro application is slow, and in death shroud, and has a 40s cooldown. You seemed to forget those bits.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Lets face it they have pretty much every other condition in the game so they DONT need it to be 5 stacks to still be a threat.

Unimportant.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Mesmer = Block with a CHANCE to inflict it if you are not forced to dodge or if they dodge or stun you.

This isn’t something with a ‘chance’. Saying it like that implies RNG. It has a ‘chance’ in the same way eviscerate has a ‘chance’ to land if it isn’t dodged, blocked, stunned or blinded…aka how every single skill in the game works.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

No affect to classes that get to 900 range.

Been over this already.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Then you get onto the fact its a 2 second duration. Plenty easy to i dont know – stop attacking wait for the block to end and then continue attacking they are little threat when using the block anyway as they cant attack you.

Or, you know, use the block skillfully so that you’re blocking an attack or walking through aoe with it as opposed to kitten ing around with your arm in front of your face yelling ‘hit me!’.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Even if they attack, How many classes can just remove it/send it back in seconds? A possible counter tactic could be see them with scepter, swap in AT wait for them to shield take the damage and instantly send it back, Necros can do this as well or they could just use it for a bigger heal.

This contributes less than nothing to the discussion.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Having to WAIT after you have made the block for it to proc is just silly. It should be instant. They attack, you block they have torment. It should not be They attack, You block, You wait, they attack some more, then they get the condition.

The pause is tiny. It allows for very skilled counterplay. End of story.

@Dank: The warrior skill is pretty good, and I forgot about it. The ticking torment is interesting, as it ends up doing less burst, but longer duration. Both better and worse, depending on your source of removal. It’s also a projectile, so keep in mind it suffers the whole suite of vulnerabilities that all projectiles have.

Ultimately, if the scepter block instantly applied 5 stacks of torment at 2000 range through blinds, blocks, dazes, invuln, evade, and was unremovable, sure, I’d love it.

Unfortunately for Ash, that will never happen because that would be imbalanced as kitten.

The block response shouldn’t be dodge-able. The block is a defense response to a foe actually providing some sort of attack. If the opponent wanted to avoid the block/torment response then the proper “counter action” is to not attack in the first place when the scepter-2 animation is up. If the block happens, it’s my opinion that the rest of the chain should happen (regardless if the foe dodges or not). Removing the abort on self dodge would be a nice quality of life feature.

ANet is a bit over reaching in trying to give everything a suitable dodge window. It’s like Dodge-Wars.

juno.1840:

The block response shouldn’t be dodge-able. The block is a defense response to a foe actually providing some sort of attack. If the opponent wanted to avoid the block/torment response then the proper “counter action” is to not attack in the first place when the scepter-2 animation is up. If the block happens, it’s my opinion that the rest of the chain should happen (regardless if the foe dodges or not). Removing the abort on self dodge would be a nice quality of life feature.

ANet is a bit over reaching in trying to give everything a suitable dodge window. It’s like Dodge-Wars.

The issue with this view is you don’t need to actually counter a skill with the block. You can just put up the block and walk through an aoe field or something, and that would be 100% guaranteed torment without a response time.

Pyroatheist.9031:

juno.1840:

The block response shouldn’t be dodge-able. The block is a defense response to a foe actually providing some sort of attack. If the opponent wanted to avoid the block/torment response then the proper “counter action” is to not attack in the first place when the scepter-2 animation is up. If the block happens, it’s my opinion that the rest of the chain should happen (regardless if the foe dodges or not). Removing the abort on self dodge would be a nice quality of life feature.

ANet is a bit over reaching in trying to give everything a suitable dodge window. It’s like Dodge-Wars.

The issue with this view is you don’t need to actually counter a skill with the block. You can just put up the block and walk through an aoe field or something, and that would be 100% guaranteed torment without a response time.

Is the torment actually applied on AoEs? Has anyone verified. I thought it only worked on directly targeted attacks. The reason I say this is I don’t get a clone for spurious blocks using scepter-2 (which is this use-case we’re discussing).

juno.1840:

Pyroatheist.9031:

juno.1840:

The block response shouldn’t be dodge-able. The block is a defense response to a foe actually providing some sort of attack. If the opponent wanted to avoid the block/torment response then the proper “counter action” is to not attack in the first place when the scepter-2 animation is up. If the block happens, it’s my opinion that the rest of the chain should happen (regardless if the foe dodges or not). Removing the abort on self dodge would be a nice quality of life feature.

ANet is a bit over reaching in trying to give everything a suitable dodge window. It’s like Dodge-Wars.

The issue with this view is you don’t need to actually counter a skill with the block. You can just put up the block and walk through an aoe field or something, and that would be 100% guaranteed torment without a response time.

Is the torment actually applied on AoEs? Has anyone verified. I thought it only worked on directly targeted attacks. The reason I say this is I don’t get a clone for spurious blocks using scepter-2 (which is this use-case we’re discussing).

It works precisely the same on aoes as it does for normal attacks. If the person who dropped the aoe is out of range of the block, then you won’t get the clone or torment. It works exactly the same.

I choked on my coffee when I saw the aura 1200 range part. Hilarious!

At least say something like give us a F5 shatter for torment or something..haha

@MountainPanda

Although you seem to be joking, that would actually be pretty cool, just have it apply 1 stack of torment per clone shattered and put it on a relatively short cooldown like 15 seconds and your golden.

@OP:

There is a 0.5s window between the block and the counter (clone is made, a direct dmg is inflicted and torment is applied to target)
During this very short window:

- you’ll be rooted, if you move or dodge the counter will not happen.
- you’ll be extremely vulnerable, you can take dmg from other attacks or that same attack u just blocked if it’s a multi-hit attack. Be prepared to get hurt and don’t dodge by instinct or you’d waste your torment.
- there is a range check
- the counter will not happen if target evades/blinds/goes invul. etc.

Tips on how to land the counter:
The key is that you must not let enemy know that you’re gonna block before they launch their attack. If they can see you holding the scepter up (the channel animation), then they’ll most likely:
– not attack at all
– attack and prepare their dodge timely when they see the blocked popup.

If the enemy doesn’t know that their attack is gonna be blocked, they have exactly half a second to react when they see the blocked popup. And 0.5s is too short of a window for an average person to react to.

The skill has 2s channel but i never let the channel run past the first second and wait for an attack. If that happens, i just use counterspell for the blind and consider the block has been wasted. Its all about good timing.

@Keenlam: As I mentioned earlier in this thread, you are NOT rooted for the duration of the pause.

dank.3680:

Anyways, since you are using torch I’m going to guess you use prismatic understanding like all the other FOTM’ers .. It is likely you are using your scepter 2 while having the aegis boon and the boon is taking the block rather then the scepter.. So you see “block” and think u landed it, but you really didn’t.

Thanks, even though I didn’t roll this spec bcuz its FOTM, but because I don’t like the power builds. It’s possible I was blocking random pets or aegis was blocking it instead of scepter #2, I’ll just keep practising

I like to get into melee range on top of the enemies character when using the block. It makes it harder to see my blocking animation.

Joonks.7501:

You can’t cherry pick skills and compare them between professions in an effort to “balance.” With your logic there should be only one profession in the entire game.

This should be shown on top of every classforum in this game. Unfortunately there are many players with this logic.