Guild Wars 2

Considering it has already been mentioned a few times, I was curious what people’s specific thoughts are about this fix. The general sense that I have gotten from the forums is positive, but does anyone think that this needs to be looked at (especially with regards to staff clones)?

helseth said he likes it.. and other people cant really think for themselves

Everyone is raging over scepter with a pu build. The same build can be achieved using staff with ie change. Since helseth has given this the stamp of approval no one is upset at the constant burn up time along with bleeds. Now imagine running a scepter/torch with staff and ie fix. The update will have peoples heads exploding.

thing is.. ie will help helsets shatter build. he wont try to get that nerfed.

I said it would be a significant buff that we don’t need – I wrote about it in another thread. The cascading effect of the bounces means they weave inbetween dodges and cds and make removal a joke. These clones are already the best and they just doubled in power – people underestimate the amount of pressure they can put out (this is largely down to burning having a stupidly high base damage).

Thats before you even think about Condi Mesmers with Staff AND Scepter – for tPvP you won’t take PU so you have lots of points to spare. The game is going to get really ugly and frustrating very soon. This update will buff our clones to a really disturbing level and people should speak out because it isn’t good for the game.

It’s crazy that people are so concerned about the scepter buff…look at the base damage numbers:

• Per strike, the scepter AA buff will provide between 64-96 extra damage, depending on if the target is moving
• Per strike, the Illusionary Elasticity buff will provide (on average) an extra 209 damage plus 1.67s of vulnerability.

That is to say, the IE buff to Winds of Chaos will do 118% – 227% MORE damage than the scepter buff, depending on if the target is moving.

Yes, IE is a master trait, but many builds with staff are already spec’d into it, so there’s really no cost in picking up either buff.

(Math for Winds of Chaos: 0.33*328 (1s burn) + 0.33*298 (7s bleed) = 209 + 5s/3 vuln = 1.67s vuln)

Personally I find it strange that people are up in arms about torment on scepter instead of this. Torment runes and sigils are stupidly expensive and will only increase in price dramatically after the patch. Only the most dedicated will be able to get them. Even then, scepter attacks are slow and can be side-stepped because they aren’t homing.

On the other hand, Illusionary Elasticity can easily be taken with Sharper Images, Cleansing Inscriptions (to get even more use out of the Signet of Domination) and Chaotic Transference. Krait runes and agony sigils are dirt cheap. Winds of Chaos are homing attacks so you won’t have to worry about hitting. Burning and vulnerability will interfere with cleansing the bleeds. The little tastes of Might and Fury are just icing on the cake.

Personally, I have my alt mesmer already specced and ready to go.

Wondering how 0 4 4 2 4 staff scepter/pistol for more bleeds and debilitating disposition to punish clone deaths.

Could you give more details about that build? I’ve been struggling to find a good niche for my Mesmer in sPvP. Ideally I want something that utilises Scepter/Pistol or Sword + Staff (as those are the weapons I most enjoy), but I haven’t had much luck finding a decent build that stands up in most matches.

Another reason people aren’t so upset about this change is because they assumed this was how the trait was intended to work. It may be a massive buff and truthfully the biggest jump in Mesmer power this patch, but people kind of already expected it, so they’re not making a deal out of it.

Well, you’re absolutely correct, Drarnor. After all, working IE was one of the multiple Mesmer fixes that were originally supposed to happen on April 15th. As such, most any Mes regular that lurks and/or posts here has been waiting for frigging months for this “fix.”

I am super excited about this change. I think with this fix mes could be a solid far point assaulter

I am also super duper excited for this change. SUPER DUPER. Staff FTW!

@Cyyrix Thank you so much for actually publishing some real math on this subject. The great irony of this whole debate is that despite the incoming scepter buff the theoretical Ubermensch condition Mesmer of the future which will march across the face of Tyria will not want to spawn scepter clones as it will be a net DPS loss. Instead you will want to spawn IE staff clones then switch to scepter to apply torment through the block and auto 1&2 + confusion through CI then switch back to staff to spawn more clones. I guess you could spawn a few scepter clones to proc on death traits, but the real condition DPS will be the IE staff clones.

EDIT: I’m not sure where I stand on this whole issue, but I feel like it is extremely hypocritical to be anti scepter buff but pro IE changes.

As mesmers we are focusing all the QQ on the scepter AA so nobody looks at the fixed IE

Well, instead of casting one offensive/one defensive bounce, the clones will do two offensive bounces. Twice the DPS.

As already pointed out the IE buff is a greater buff DPS wise to the scepter buff. It’s really crazy that so many of the usual suspects on this subforum are crying so much over AA torment but completely neglect IE having a larger impact. But go ahead and blindly follow someone because they want to take the focus away from their go to weapon.

My quick math, 3 clones + staff mes in melee (solo):

Before fix – 5,637 dps
After fix – 7,692 dps (36% increase)

I’ll definitely revisit condition mes post patch since according to my spreadsheet we finally will be able to keep perma 25 might/bleeding, 15 vuln, and perma burn as long as all 3 clones survive (in melee).

ps: don’t quote me on the math, I didn’t double check it for 100% accuracy but I do believe it’s close enough.

I believe the devs are pulling a mesmer trick on everyone. Letting us focus on AA torment when the real buff is staff

Torment isn’t that great. If I see 5 or more stacks, I will just stealth and sit still. with the -40% condition duration food, I can afford to take a couple second immobilize. There’s no actual benefit moving around unless you dodging to summon clones.

This is the change I am most excited about. Saw the scepter and knew everyone was going to QQ over it, meaning they’d leave my IE alone. Yeah we get it, torment is a ‘bad thing’ and mesmers will be the dummy profession that everyone plays PU scepter with. Never mind the staff clones that are going to wreck your day. You can easily dodge that last scepter hit to not end up with a clone attacking you, heck you can even side step the thing if you pay attention to the slow animations but staff clones, so long as you are within range of casting…you are going to be eating Winds of Chaos. Makes me giddy to play Mesmer again.

Mmm… The thought of this makes me drool. Staff + Scepter/Torch Full condi PU build… Yummy. If only they would buff confusion back up.

IE was good enough to put into staff builds before this change. While it was a needed bug fix for staff clones, the incremental power creep from this trait is pretty massive (based on the newer bounce to target AI logic).

But just like the Scepter changes, it’s a wait and see … who knows what other changes ANet may announce for other classes/mechanic changes.

The taking of a scepter/torch staff with ie change alters the pu build. Torch for condition clear is lost along with condition duration. The myth that all this can function in a build is what is making people rage.

What people are generally forgetting is that you need to pull 20 (err.. 4) points from somewhere to get IE.

Assuming you want PU and DE, that means you lose Crippling D and the torch cooldown which means less stealth, less condition removal, and tougher to stay away from your opponent. I think it balances out pretty well.

I think dropping PU is a good option to get back Crippling TBH.

Anyway the reason people are focusing on Scepter AA is cuase it is a direct addition to the “Blackwater” spec without having to sacrifice anything.

edit ahhh! Ninja denis

Imao some of you guys are taking IE fix from the wrong side.

IE fix is a good deserved thing that will:

1) add some pressure on standard shatter build (atm the only build viable in tpvp) without making shatter op

2) add some pressure to lockdown build (and maybe enought pressure to make some lockdown build viable on tpvp) without making it op

3) allow some build diversity (condi shatter for example)

4) making PU prolly being Op

I can messy some predictions but my point is that IE fix is a really a GOOD change cause it will affect nearly EVERY build of mesmer, improving our build diversity (that is best goal).

It could be, like someone of you said ,that IE fix will make some build OP (i think it will prolly make pu OP) but, imao, solution isnt nerfing or not fixing IE but nerfing the specific build (example PU) who would take too much advantage from it, leaving other builds who arent op to use IE fixed

aelfwe.4239:

solution isnt nerfing or not fixing IE but nerfing the specific build (example PU) who would take too much advantage from it

Are you in favor of the scepter buff? It seems like you’d agree that the solution isnt nerfing scepter but nerfing the specific build (example PU) that would take too much advantage from it. The scepter buff also promotes build diversity, as it would make condi shatter and condi lockdown more viable, which is the best goal.

cyyrix.6105:

aelfwe.4239:

solution isnt nerfing or not fixing IE but nerfing the specific build (example PU) who would take too much advantage from it

Are you in favor of the scepter buff? It seems like you’d agree that the solution isnt nerfing scepter but nerfing the specific build (example PU) that would take too much advantage from it. The scepter buff also promotes build diversity, as it would make condi shatter and condi lockdown more viable, which is the best goal.

What do you mean by condi lockdown more viable?

It will be IE for Condition (and power) builds, and AoE spike damage for power builds that will drown out any cries about the rather tame improvements to Scepter.

A well executed shatter combo with AoE MoD/w HS + AoE MoP + GS #3 thrown in, is going to be a real scrub zerg killer that will make the pre-nerf Glamor Confusion bombs look like they were balanced. ;-)

The two Mantras are of course instant and can be directly executed during the usual shatter combo, and have both moved from single target to 5 target AoE, and the GS #3 is almost instant with a little practice and now hits much harder in a much larger radius.

Fun times for zerg busting IMO…

cyyrix.6105:

aelfwe.4239:

solution isnt nerfing or not fixing IE but nerfing the specific build (example PU) who would take too much advantage from it

Are you in favor of the scepter buff? It seems like you’d agree that the solution isnt nerfing scepter but nerfing the specific build (example PU) that would take too much advantage from it. The scepter buff also promotes build diversity, as it would make condi shatter and condi lockdown more viable, which is the best goal.

yeah im on favor of the scepter buff too. I dont think scepter buff itself is too strong exactly how i dont think ie fix alone its too strong. I like both change cause both add some more option that can improve build diversity.

I think both ie and scepter buff can be used in different build without being OP.

I think also both ie and scepter buff could make OP PU based build.

In case like these where a change bring to 4 different new viable builds, where 3 build are good and not op and 1 build is op, solution is to nerf the OP build and not to remove the changes deleting the 3 new good options.

This is the core of “balancing” meaning: make a change (ei. ie fix) take good things from the change (ie lockdown\shatter\shatter condi) remove the bad thing from changes (pu)

On other words if PU become op then nerf PU, do not change scepter or ie cause standar shatter, lockdown, condie shatter will benefit too from these change without being op.

About blinking time I say, it’s 6 months over due.
They must have the smallest balance team in the industry, it takes them forever to do very simple, basic stuff. Of course if they weren’t so stubborn and split their bloody skills already maybe things would move along at a brisker pace.

Choices, choices … IE will be hard to get for the 4/4/6/0/0 CI builds. You either sacrifice HS+SC or DE.
I will try 0/4/6/0/4 with iDisenchanter, but I suspect it will be dying to quickly.

i’m pretty much saying what most people above are saying.
its crazy that everyone is getting their knickers in a bunch over the scepter change,
when this Elasticity change is IMHO the biggest buff to a class since Healing Signet!

staff clones are stronger than phantasms when it comes to condition builds, and now they’re getting twice as strong? let the PU madness ensue!

IE doesn’t affect iDisenchanter.

However according to the wiki it affects iMage.

Is this a bug or intended?

Hope iDisenchanter gets IE too

If by “we” you mean elite players that have been Mesmer since beta and/or GW1, then we don’t need a buff. Casual players do though as do WvW players.

To address those of you in this thread who think people are inconsistent about disliking scepter AA but liking staff IE:

First, the IE fix buffs a ton of builds, whereas the scepter AA buff benefits almost exclusively condi builds which didn’t need to be buffed.

More to the point, you’re not comparing one skill to another. That is, you’re not comparing scepter AA to staff AA in a vacuum. Rather, you’re comparing the entire condi output of scepter/x to the entire condi output of staff.

Even with IE, the condi output from staff depends (almost exclusively) on AA/clones. Scepter/x, on the other hand, will spit out condi’s on almost every weapon skill. With the scepter AA buff, the overall condi output of scepter/x will just be ridiculous, increasing the problem with mindless PU condi builds.

Lastly, many PU builds take both staff and scepter/x. Before, replacing a staff clone with a scepter clone meant a significant DPS loss. Not so post-patch.

(I feel like a broken record at this point)

Shhhhhh don’t post about IE. Publish more hate on scepter AA

Long ago IE used to work, at some point it broke (I think it was fixed and broken again at some point as well) but IE working with staff clones is nothing new… It was not
OP then, and still won’t be now, so there’s no point in anyone getting up in arms about it. Also yeah Scepter AA is getting all the attention I’m even glad it see attention away from I-leap QQers

These are my thoughts;

#getrekt

mango.9267:

First, the IE fix buffs a ton of builds, whereas the scepter AA buff benefits almost exclusively condi builds which didn’t need to be buffed.

Which is clearly as intended by Anet, since they said as much. Condie builds had no viable MH option, and really only had Staff that could remotely be called a Condie oriented weapon. Remember, the only Condie builds that are currently popular or “competitive” (OPd in small-scale fights) are getting a sizable nerf.

So yes, clearly Condie builds as a whole need a significant buff, and PU is getting some necessary and significant nerfs at the very same time. This is proper balancing, and will result in more build diversity.

mango.9267:

More to the point, you’re not comparing one skill to another. That is, you’re not comparing scepter AA to staff AA in a vacuum. Rather, you’re comparing the entire condi output of scepter/x to the entire condi output of staff.

I don’t think anyone here is failing to realize this obvious fact.

mango.9267:

Even with IE, the condi output from staff depends (almost exclusively) on AA/clones. Scepter/x, on the other hand, will spit out condi’s on almost every weapon skill. With the scepter AA buff, the overall condi output of scepter/x will just be ridiculous, increasing the problem with mindless PU condi builds.

Isn’t that the point of a Condie focused weapon to spit out Condies? Is there any other Condie-focused weapon that doesn’t do this? The #2 skill is off-block and thus highly situational. The #3 skill is very slow and highly telegraphed and applies a rather weak and short-duration Condition that smart players often simply wait out without the Mesmer being able to punish them for doing so. (Because the Scepter AA & Clones are so weak.)

The Scepter is currently an atrocious weapon in ANY regard. The only thing it had going for it at all was:

1) The Sword is an even worse choice for a Condie Build
2) You really need Torch OH for PU builds, so you need a MH to go with it and see #1
3) The somewhat useful #2 that actually applies a useful condition. (If your opponent attacks you, is in range, and stays in your frontal arc to receive the Torments.)

mango.9267:

Lastly, many PU builds take both staff and scepter/x. Before, replacing a staff clone with a scepter clone meant a significant DPS loss. Not so post-patch.

Yes, which is exactly one major reason why Scepter is such a terrible Condition-focused weapon! People were turning OFF their AA, and used their dodge-rolls sparingly, only to avoid actually using their Scepter for anything but the occasional successful use of #2 and #3! They pretty much only swap to Scepter for The Prestige. That you consider this to be the way a weapon should be designed/played is -quite frankly- rather obtuse.

Look, there are sizable nerfs to PU incoming that will force tougher build-choices on players. PU is getting pigeonholed even more into a 1v1 role, but yes it will be at least as strong in that role as now, and maybe even a tad stronger. However, it will not be as passive as before, not nearly as AoE capable from Clone Deaths, and it will have significantly less defense to boot, which gives it a much more prominent -and needed- “Achilles Heel.”

So the Scepter changes along with PU nerfs are a big plus to build diversity for Mesmers.

mango.9267:

To address those of you in this thread who think people are inconsistent about disliking scepter AA but liking staff IE:

First, the IE fix buffs a ton of builds, whereas the scepter AA buff benefits almost exclusively condi builds which didn’t need to be buffed.

More to the point, you’re not comparing one skill to another. That is, you’re not comparing scepter AA to staff AA in a vacuum. Rather, you’re comparing the entire condi output of scepter/x to the entire condi output of staff.

Even with IE, the condi output from staff depends (almost exclusively) on AA/clones. Scepter/x, on the other hand, will spit out condi’s on almost every weapon skill. With the scepter AA buff, the overall condi output of scepter/x will just be ridiculous, increasing the problem with mindless PU condi builds.

Lastly, many PU builds take both staff and scepter/x. Before, replacing a staff clone with a scepter clone meant a significant DPS loss. Not so post-patch.

(I feel like a broken record at this point)

Who cares about “condi output”, whatever that even means? The IE buff increases the overall condi damage of staff more than the scepter buff does scepter/x. By a lot. IE also beats scepter AA in condi cover. It also has higher burst potential from burning.

Stop framing everything around PU. PU PU PU PU PU. You are a broken record at this point. We get it. You don’t want PU builds buffed. It is important to understand that the scepter buff can help non PU builds. It might even make the weapon viable on some hybrid or (dare I say) power builds, much like the staff is. Also, a huge condi buff like IE has a good chance of making its way into PU variants.

Always consider how a buff will affect various post-patch builds, not just builds that are currently popular.

Windwalker.7421:

mango.9267:

More to the point, you’re not comparing one skill to another. That is, you’re not comparing scepter AA to staff AA in a vacuum. Rather, you’re comparing the entire condi output of scepter/x to the entire condi output of staff.

I don’t think anyone here is failing to realize this obvious fact.

Quite the contrary, I think many people are overlooking this obvious fact. There are tons of replies in this thread and others along the lines of “why are you opposing the scepter AA buff when the IE fix will make staff clones even better at applying condi’s? hurrdurr Helseth fanboy”

Windwalker.7421:

Isn’t that the point of a Condie focused weapon to spit out Condies? Is there any other Condie-focused weapon that doesn’t do this? The #2 skill is off-block and thus highly situational. The #3 skill is very slow and highly telegraphed and applies a rather weak and short-duration Condition that smart players often simply wait out without the Mesmer being able to punish them for doing so. (Because the Scepter AA & Clones are so weak.)

The Scepter is currently an atrocious weapon in ANY regard.

This is where I disagree. I think in its current state, scepter is already a decent condition weapon, and scepter/x is a strong condition set. Scepter 2 isn’t so unreliable if you watch for opponents’ telegraphed skills or aoe’s. And at worst it provides a decent duration block or blind. Often, it forces a dodge if your opponent is careless about hitting it. Scepter 3 is great for making opponents waste dodges, and the confusion is completely non-negligible. At worst, the opponent doesn’t attack, relieving pressure from you and allowing you to wait on your cd’s. At best, the opponent takes decent confusion damage.

When coupled with torch or pistol offhand, I think the entire set boasts strong condi output.

Windwalker.7421:

mango.9267:

Lastly, many PU builds take both staff and scepter/x. Before, replacing a staff clone with a scepter clone meant a significant DPS loss. Not so post-patch.

Yes, which is exactly one major reason why Scepter is such a terrible Condition-focused weapon! People were turning OFF their AA, and used their dodge-rolls sparingly, only to avoid actually using their Scepter for anything but the occasional successful use of #2 and #3! They pretty much only swap to Scepter for The Prestige. That you consider this to be the way a weapon should be designed/played is -quite frankly- rather obtuse.

Your experience with scepter differs from mine. Scepter 2 and 3 aren’t as unreliable or worthless as you make them out to be and scepter/x offers far more than the prestige. Scepter itself is a decent defensive weapon with decent condi output, and scepter/x boasts stealth, burn, confusion, or bleeds and stun.

The tradeoff between gaining these defensive (or in the case of the duelist, offensive) options was weaker clones. I thought this was a fair trade and at least promoted some strategy when deciding how to use dodges or when to swap weapons. Now, I’m afraid little is lost when swapping to scepter/x.

Windwalker.7421:

Look, there are sizable nerfs to PU incoming that will force tougher build-choices on players. PU is getting pigeonholed even more into a 1v1 role, but yes it will be at least as strong in that role as now, and maybe even a tad stronger. However, it will not be as passive as before, not nearly as AoE capable from Clone Deaths, and it will have significantly less defense to boot, which gives it a much more prominent -and needed- “Achilles Heel.”

So the Scepter changes along with PU nerfs are a big plus to build diversity for Mesmers.

I agree that the scepter buff is mitigated by the PU and DD nerfs. I think it’ll be just as passive, minus the occasional AA’s, but that’s the nature of playing a build like PU condi. Whether or not this will really promote build diversity remains to be seen, but I hope you’re right.

cyyrix.6105:

Who cares about “condi output”, whatever that even means? The IE buff increases the overall condi damage of staff more than the scepter buff does scepter/x. By a lot. IE also beats scepter AA in condi cover. It also has higher burst potential from burning.

Really, I don’t think overall condi output is such a tough concept to grasp.

I address it because I think that’s what people are missing when they paint the opposition as inconsistent for opposing scepter AA buff but approving of the IE fix.

And again, I agree that staff AA is better than scepter AA. However, staff AA isn’t better than the entire scepter/x set at outputting condi’s.

cyyrix.6105:

Stop framing everything around PU. PU PU PU PU PU. You are a broken record at this point. We get it. You don’t want PU builds buffed. It is important to understand that the scepter buff can help non PU builds. It might even make the weapon viable on some hybrid or (dare I say) power builds, much like the staff is. Also, a huge condi buff like IE has a good chance of making its way into PU variants.

Always consider how a buff will affect various post-patch builds, not just builds that are currently popular.

I never framed my argument around PU. I use PU as an example of the type of build this buff benefits, and the type of build that didn’t need to be buffed.

Yes, this could help other builds. Exclusively power builds? Probably only marginally. However, I think the way this helps is completely misguided, as it promotes little active play, no team synergy, and only strengthens the condi meta. I would have loved it if Anet buffed the scepter by implementing any one of the many better ideas on these forums. Instead, we get a lazy torment on AA design.

But yes, my worries are mitigated slightly by the fact that PU and DD are nerfed. However, the design philosophy behind just tacking on torment to AA still does little to bring mesmers out of the pigeonholed slump it’s in.

mango.9267:

cyyrix.6105:

Who cares about “condi output”, whatever that even means? The IE buff increases the overall condi damage of staff more than the scepter buff does scepter/x. By a lot. IE also beats scepter AA in condi cover. It also has higher burst potential from burning.

Really, I don’t think overall condi output is such a tough concept to grasp.

I address it because I think that’s what people are missing when they paint the opposition as inconsistent for opposing scepter AA buff but approving of the IE fix.

My point is that “Condi output” is vague. Do you mean condi application? Condi uptime? Condi variety? Condi damage? Condi burst? All these make sense. “Condi output” does not.

Truth is it doesn’t really matter what you envision as “condi output” because you are wrong anyways. Buffed IE staff beats buffed sc/x on almost all of those, except maybe sc/t, but that greatly depends on enemy movement and skill use.

cyyrix.6105:

My point is that “Condi output” is vague. Do you mean condi application? Condi uptime? Condi variety? Condi damage? Condi burst? All these make sense. “Condi output” does not.

Truth is it doesn’t really matter what you envision as “condi output” because you are wrong anyways. Buffed IE staff beats buffed sc/x on almost all of those, except maybe sc/t, but that greatly depends on enemy movement and skill use.

Both variety and damage. And staff certainly pales in comparison to scepter/torch or scepter/pistol in variety and damage. Staff reliably offers vuln, bleed, and/or burn. Scepter/x offers torment, confusion, bleed, and burn, without the RNG element. Scepter/x conditions also do more damage if allowed to tick the full duration, especially the bleeds from the duelists and the torment from the block.

What are the odds the IE “fix” doesn’t work just like last time though?

Man. I don’t know how I’ll react if that’s the case yet again.