Illusionary Persona as default
F3 and F4 are always useful in any build, I don’t know how you can play successfully without using these two.
But I agree that F1 and F2 are kind of useless in non-shatter condition builds.
F2 is a little useless in non-IP power builds unless taking something like shattered concentration and the other three shatters happen to be on cooldown in which case it is useful for boon strip.
Personally I see it as we don’t have to use all the shatters – they are just there so we’re given a choice. Otherwise pick and choose which ones you want to use based on the build/situation.
This is a very good question which I have given an embarrassing amount of thought to over many many months. I still haven’t come to any real answer. IP is of an appropriate strength for a grandmaster, but at the same time Mesmer really feels terrible (at least in my opinion) without it. I don’t know if it’s appropriate that a class should literally feel “incomplete” without a trait, never mind that it’s GM.
If it were revamped I think what would need to happen is the base damage values and effects on all shatters would be brought substantially down, and where IP is there’d be a trait to boost them back up again.
I partially support the idea. I would like the damage scaling of Mind Wrack with Illusionary Persona to be the default at the very least.
F3 and F4 are always useful in any build, I don’t know how you can play successfully without using these two.
But I agree that F1 and F2 are kind of useless in non-shatter condition builds.
F2 is a little useless in non-IP power builds unless taking something like shattered concentration and the other three shatters happen to be on cooldown in which case it is useful for boon strip.
Personally I see it as we don’t have to use all the shatters – they are just there so we’re given a choice. Otherwise pick and choose which ones you want to use based on the build/situation.
Actually F3-F4 are pretty useless in WvW without IP because you most likely won’t have a clone/phantasm up when you need them —> you end up not using them because of being unreliable.
F2 in a power build is completely useless (unless you trait for boon stripping)
F1 is the only one I actually use both in PvE and in WvW, mostly because with GS #2 you are nearly guaranteed to have a clone in the right place to shatter, when you are attacking. you can’t really use that defensively (F4) tho..
So as I see it, at the moment, without IP, the shatter are useful just in PvP environment, where your clone/illusions aren’t usually immediately destroyed and you kind of can control them and decide wether to shatter them and for what purpose.
Someone here said that without IP the class seems incomplete and I absolutely agree, that’s the whole point of the thread.
For example also Guardians have F1-F3 skills that they can activate at will.. and they haven’t any cumbersome mechanics like the one Mesmer’s have.. and they are at least equally as good.
F3 and F4 are always useful in any build, I don’t know how you can play successfully without using these two.
But I agree that F1 and F2 are kind of useless in non-shatter condition builds.
F2 is a little useless in non-IP power builds unless taking something like shattered concentration and the other three shatters happen to be on cooldown in which case it is useful for boon strip.
Personally I see it as we don’t have to use all the shatters – they are just there so we’re given a choice. Otherwise pick and choose which ones you want to use based on the build/situation.
Actually F3-F4 are pretty useless in WvW without IP because you most likely won’t have a clone/phantasm up when you need them —> you end up not using them because of being unreliable.
F2 in a power build is completely useless (unless you trait for boon stripping)
F1 is the only one I actually use both in PvE and in WvW, mostly because with GS #2 you are nearly guaranteed to have a clone in the right place to shatter, when you are attacking. you can’t really use that defensively (F4) tho..So as I see it, at the moment, without IP, the shatter are useful just in PvP environment, where your clone/illusions aren’t usually immediately destroyed and you kind of can control them and decide wether to shatter them and for what purpose.
Someone here said that without IP the class seems incomplete and I absolutely agree, that’s the whole point of the thread.
For example also Guardians have F1-F3 skills that they can activate at will.. and they haven’t any cumbersome mechanics like the one Mesmer’s have.. and they are at least equally as good.
Yeah, good point – I never really play in large scale wvw so it didn’t come to mind.
In small scale fights or pvp they’re useful.
To be honest I’m ambivalent to having IP as standard.
I think we are going to talk about over the top hard core buffs to our mechanics, which this would be (using our resource consuming mechanic with no resource), there are better things we could get.
I’ve killed a thief with nothing but 3 clones and f3 before. It’s my favorite shatter skill (and first used these days)
I think with all buggy non-ip shatter skills are atm (especially distortion) that this would be a nice quality of life change to Mesmer, raise the skill cap, and create a lot more build diversity in the class. Of course, this is assuming that this is incorporated in a balanced, non overpowered way.
-Rylock [vE]
Retired.
Retired.
u do realise that this would make the mesmer op by giving them potentially 6 more traitpts …
I like this, mostly because non-shatter builds don’t really use F1-F4 effectively/at all (except 4/4/6 CI). I can’t think of any other profession that almost althogether avoids using their profession skills with certain builds. Also, less passive PU/phantasm specs!
Yaniam [Mesmer]
^ Usually only characer that i play on
^ Usually only characer that i play on
u do realise that this would make the mesmer op by giving them potentially 6 more traitpts …
It wouldn’t really make Mesmer OP. A good chunk of damage from Mesmer comes from the illusion tree itself (confusion and might on shatter, IC, extra bounce/shatter reset at 50%) so youd lose a good amount of damage if you didn’t go illusion. Mesmers also have been running shatter for 2 years now in competitive tpvp and wvw so why not just give it to them as a class mechanic anyway lol.
-Rylock [vE]
Retired.
Retired.
u do realise that this would make the mesmer op by giving them potentially 6 more traitpts …
It wouldn’t really make Mesmer OP. A good chunk of damage from Mesmer comes from the illusion tree itself (confusion and might on shatter, IC, extra bounce/shatter reset at 50%) so youd lose a good amount of damage if you didn’t go illusion. Mesmers also have been running shatter for 2 years now in competitive tpvp and wvw so why not just give it to them as a class mechanic anyway lol.
Dnt forget traiting 6 pts effectively reduces all shatter CDs
Champion Illusionist Champion Hunter Champion Phantom Champion Magus
u do realise that this would make the mesmer op by giving them potentially 6 more traitpts …
It wouldn’t really make Mesmer OP. A good chunk of damage from Mesmer comes from the illusion tree itself (confusion and might on shatter, IC, extra bounce/shatter reset at 50%) so youd lose a good amount of damage if you didn’t go illusion. Mesmers also have been running shatter for 2 years now in competitive tpvp and wvw so why not just give it to them as a class mechanic anyway lol.
we would get a lot of points and compensations elsewhere, opening more options(ofc that would be nice, more buildvariety is always good)
but rly, there must be smth else, cause not having to go 30 into illusions for a shatterspec .. can be broken..
its not about not having to go to illusion tree, the 30 pts u can put elsewhere with a minimal loose (or actually gain dmg , depends) is rly… scary…
u do realise that this would make the mesmer op by giving them potentially 6 more traitpts …
It wouldn’t really make Mesmer OP. A good chunk of damage from Mesmer comes from the illusion tree itself (confusion and might on shatter, IC, extra bounce/shatter reset at 50%) so youd lose a good amount of damage if you didn’t go illusion. Mesmers also have been running shatter for 2 years now in competitive tpvp and wvw so why not just give it to them as a class mechanic anyway lol.
we would get a lot of points and compensations elsewhere, opening more options(ofc that would be nice, more buildvariety is always good)
but rly, there must be smth else, cause not having to go 30 into illusions for a shatterspec .. can be broken..
its not about not having to go to illusion tree, the 30 pts u can put elsewhere with a minimal loose (or actually gain dmg , depends) is rly… scary…
I don’t really see how it would be broken since non shatter mesmers aren’t exactly in the best spot (theyre really in a terrible spot tbh) and having IP would really help to give some much needed power into those specs.
For example, If I went 4 4 6 ci mes and I had IP by default, I would do about an extra 1500 damage with mind wrack, 400 from cof, an extra on demand daze, and a non buggy distortion (because non shatter distortion is insanely buggy right now). It would not be that bad since I gain no might or inflict no confusion on shatter, no ic, and no extra bounce/shatter reset.
-Rylock [vE]
Retired.
Retired.
(edited by Warlord of Chaos.7845)
Ya but the 6 points in illusions does nothing for the burst damage of shatter besides the 30% cd reduction on shatters, just sustain plus perks.
Example: 4/4/6/0/0 with IP, take CI or PU, either way it would be totally insane to have a non-glkittenter mesmer with the exact same level of glass burst. Take any power based build with DE and add IP to it, it would be totally awesome and totally op. I mean really literally any build with 2 in dom and 4 in dueling would now have basically the exact same burst as the current shatter build does (ok minus the 10% crit from 2 in illusions, but go ahead and take that too if you want, you still have 6 points left).
A shatter build can one shot people. The trade off is a shatter mesmer can be one shotted themselves. Well now give them 6 points to do with as they please. Most people would build to no longer be one-shottable, but still be able to one people themselves.
If they did this for us it would be a pandora’s box because then everyone else would cry for the same thing and it would be madness. Possibly super fun though, actually now I think they should do it lol.
(edited by MSFone.3026)
Ya but the 6 points in illusions does nothing for the burst damage of shatter besides the 30% cd reduction on shatters, just sustain plus perks.
Considering im able to maintain 10-15 might just from illusions tree, the no confusion on shatter, the no might, and the no ic would really hurt the burst if you didn’t go illusions, on top of being able to burst 30% less of the time. IP being standard would be a much needed defense buff for Mesmer, not really offense.
-Rylock [vE]
Retired.
Retired.
I’d say it’s less the extra mind wrack and more the free diversion and distortion that would make this OP.
Kortham Raysplitter (Yak’s Bend)
Ya but the 6 points in illusions does nothing for the burst damage of shatter besides the 30% cd reduction on shatters, just sustain plus perks.
Considering im able to maintain 10-15 might just from illusions tree, the no confusion on shatter, the no might, and the no ic would really hurt the burst if you didn’t go illusions, on top of being able to burst 30% less of the time.
But you’ve got 6 free points! Is the 5 point in illusions the only source of might we have? Take BI just like you said. A shatter mesmer can still blow someone up with no might stacks on them ahead of time. Land on interrupt and now you have your might back. And how does confusion add to burst? Yes no IC would hurt GS shatter burst.
For sake of argument say you could only have 80% of the current shatter builds burst in any other build, which you totally could. This would still be insane.
I’d love to have the functionality of IP as default if only for QoL reasons. I wouldn’t mind if shatters 3 – 4 were to be scaled down per illusion (~3/4 second daze/invuln instead of 1s) and of course the other shatters and traits scaled down appropriately as well.
I get a little bit angry in WvW zergs running without IP when popping shatter4 does nothing.
If IP were default, the existing IP trait could just add another illusion on top of you. (So 5 illusions maximum for shatters).
pvp wise? if ip as baseline, we can invest 6 into chaos for interrupt, or pu, even the new trait, we will have more toughness,longer might duration, root on interrupt at no cost of damage will be huge.
might can comes from else where like battle sigil and bountiful interruption.
Hell, if ip baseline, u will see another class with full capitalization of celestial.
a pre-req for using cele capability is might stack and boon duration, u see it with engi and ele both invest in at least 4 points in the respective boon duration trees.
if there is anything against the point, is that the game does not need another class fully usage with cele amulet.
mechanic wise, it make total sense that IP should be baseline.
do u acutally see people playing shatter in pve?
the lack of IP is one point that refrains everyone from using it, our main class mechenic
I don’t think every Mesmer should have Distraction/Distortion on demand. That alone makes it kind of OP in my opinion. That being said, I haven’t really played a “shatter” build outside of my 0/4/6/4/0 support shatter build, so I’m not sure if I have much helpful insight into the situation.
https://www.twitch.tv/thatcho
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”
I don’t think every Mesmer should have Distraction/Distortion on demand. That alone makes it kind of OP in my opinion. That being said, I haven’t really played a “shatter” build outside of my 0/4/6/4/0 support shatter build, so I’m not sure if I have much helpful insight into the situation.
Well, think it like this: accessible 1 second distraction/distortion is what would make people actually use the core mechanic of this class..
Of course then if you want reduced CD on shatter, might on shatter, recharge shatter at 50% hp and other useful stuff for a shatter build you would still have to invest heavily in the last trait line.
I can see that some balance would need to happen in PvP environment but ok, that’s normal and that’s just one aspect of the game.
I’m in the camp that mesmers should be able to have IP as a part of the class mechanic.
As rylock pointed out, distortion is incredibly buggy when you dont have IP, what good is a one second invuln if it goes off one or two seconds too late?
No one has suggested that we give mesmers an additional 6 trait points, that would be effing stupid. We have suggested that IP be a part of the class mechanic. If we do that we might actually see some variations on shatter builds in T and sPvP.
@fedecane.6259
FYI, check this discussion if you haven’t seen it. Many well developed thoughts along the same line.
@fedecane.6259
FYI, check this discussion if you haven’t seen it. Many well developed thoughts along the same line.
Yeah but for as much as it would be nice to at least give those ideas a try/test phase… it’s a complete rework of a class, in a game that is more than 2 years old. Not gonna happen.
What I am talking about is not a rework at all and could be implemented with the equivalent of a “blink of an eye” of a game programmer.
@fedecane.6259
FYI, check this discussion if you haven’t seen it. Many well developed thoughts along the same line.
Yeah but for as much as it would be nice to at least give those ideas a try/test phase… it’s a complete rework of a class, in a game that is more than 2 years old. Not gonna happen.
What I am talking about is not a rework at all and could be implemented with the equivalent of a “blink of an eye” of a game programmer.
you know, I just had this discussion with a programer at breakfast this morning. They are of the same opinion, 2 years R I P. Why won’t I migrate already and stop stealing all the waffels :/
I’ve wanted this since beta. Mesmer just feels so much better playing with this trait. More fluid and natural.
Yeah but for as much as it would be nice to at least give those ideas a try/test phase… it’s a complete rework of a class, in a game that is more than 2 years old. Not gonna happen.
Not really. Ultimately it comes down to swapping Shatter and Generation. That’s not such a big change, really.
Making IP baseline is no small undertaking. If you just flat out add it to all specs it’d be quite overpowered, plus there’s very little reason to go for a “shatter build” if you can reap it’s defining trait in other builds. So rebalancing has to be done, in other words, lots of dev work. :P
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.