Guild Wars 2

A simple suggestion that would substantially improve the mesmer’s subpar multi-target PVE abilities while not overpowering them in PVP.

Illusions should not dissipate when their target dies. It discourages focus fire which is a powerful damage mitigation tool in PVE, and it would make things much easier for arguably the worst PVE profession in the game. It is just so easy for a mesmer to get overwhelmed by multiple targets given their general lack of AOE damage compared to other professions. My proposed fix would greatly even the playing field.

The current system doesn’t even make sense flavor wise. If the illusions exist only in the minds of the targets, why can other creatures attack them? If an illusion can only attack one target, that target should be the only thing that can attack said illusion. Conversely, if an illusion can be attacked by multiple creatures, it should be able to retaliate against any of those creatures. It is only logical, and would be a great balancing factor for PVE Mesmers.

This makes so much sense both in terms of flavor and in terms of balance. Please consider this seriously.

It’s always bugged me that the phantasms died when their targets died because the mind they were created in was destroyed.

Because you can spawn phantasms to attack a box.

If Mesmers are capable of making a box think it is being attacked, then there’s an entirely different set of complaints I’ve got regarding Mesmer’s lack “liquify all minds in a 1200 range radius” skill. We could be Cthulhu.

This bothered me when I first started playing my Mesmer, but by the end, you can churn them out so fast it doesn’t matter much.

I like that the current system forces me to be quick and skillful in my PvE combat. It’s such a rush to just flit, dodge, blink, teleport, and stealth around in the midst of 4-5 mobs barely surviving any multi-target engagement.

That being said, I think it’s a little redic at times.

Sure, illusions are cheap, fast to recover, and flimsy. Let them dissipate after each opponent. But the phantasms are tougher, slower cool down, harder hitting tools we use and I don’t see the harm of them not being destroyed after their enemy dies. They’re still a projections, they’re still going to die if they take more than a couple hits.

Khyron.8735:

This bothered me when I first started playing my Mesmer, but by the end, you can churn them out so fast it doesn’t matter much.

This. Illusions aren’t pets. Their behaviour is just inconsistent – if the argument is that they disappear when the target dies because they’re targeted mind tricks, how can they deal AoE damage and so on, also what the OP said about them being attackable by everybody is true.

Iruwen.3164:

Khyron.8735:

This bothered me when I first started playing my Mesmer, but by the end, you can churn them out so fast it doesn’t matter much.

This. Illusions aren’t pets. Their behaviour is just inconsistent – if the argument is that they disappear when the target dies because they’re targeted mind tricks, how can they deal AoE damage and so on, also what the OP said about them being attackable by everybody is true.

This. When i first bought the game, i started on mes. After about 10-15h of gameplay i pretty much stopped playing mesmer because it felt utra weak and all illusions dying after targets death felt stupid to say the least but now i don’t really care. Since i shatter spam pretty much everywhere i play the illusions don’t live long BUT if would be nice if clones stayed. For example, when there’s no enemies around you, you can’t make them appear but if there’s a target and you kill it with multiple clones out they should stay. not only this will be great for pvp (mess people even more) but as TC mentioned mes has pathetic aoe and that would help just a little. Sure phantasms would be better but that’s a little op and i’d be fine if its just clones to trick you opponent.

I would love it if Mesmer clones stayed unshattered when a target died – Or being able to spawn them without a target. They could just target what you targeted, and move/dodge in the direction you move/dodged.

That’d fix Clone targeted, the problem with having to stay stationary in a mobile combat game, and would give me the excuse to run everywhere with an entourage of myself.

You have no idea how much I want an entourage of Me’s everywhere I go.

I actually like when my clones explode when the target dies. I feel like Deidara blowing up my creations. Art is an explosion! When I first started playing Mesmer I didn’t like that the clones died when the target died either. I’ve grown to appreciate that’s part of the flavor of the class and I look forward to seeing them explode and getting more clones out for the next mob.

The Final Doorman.2913:

A simple suggestion that would substantially improve the mesmer’s subpar multi-target PVE abilities while not overpowering them in PVP.

Illusions should not dissipate when their target dies. It discourages focus fire which is a powerful damage mitigation tool in PVE, and it would make things much easier for arguably the worst PVE profession in the game. It is just so easy for a mesmer to get overwhelmed by multiple targets given their general lack of AOE damage compared to other professions. My proposed fix would greatly even the playing field.

The current system doesn’t even make sense flavor wise. If the illusions exist only in the minds of the targets, why can other creatures attack them? If an illusion can only attack one target, that target should be the only thing that can attack said illusion. Conversely, if an illusion can be attacked by multiple creatures, it should be able to retaliate against any of those creatures. It is only logical, and would be a great balancing factor for PVE Mesmers.

This makes so much sense both in terms of flavor and in terms of balance. Please consider this seriously.

Totally agree with this ^^ if the lore is that the illusions are only in the minds of their targets then either they are only attackable by that target and vanish (explode) after the target is dead or if they exist in all of the surrounding enemies then they shouldn’t vanish until the last one is dead.

In a Phantasm Mesmer build vs. a shatter-type build, I think the phantasms should stay around even if a target dies. If only in PvE to help them with better survivability and damage output. The idea of phantasm builds is (usually) to keep your phantasms out as long as possible, anyway. Shattering them isn’t high on the list. So… I think it is worth investigating. Perhaps a grandmastery trait that makes it possible.

Would prefer if they lasted till out of combat rather than one mobs death. Keeps it from being like the rangers pet and makes dealing with numbers easier.

I’m fine with clones disappearing because they don’t do much besides draw aggro.

I would like Phantasms to stay though… They’re actually part of our DPS.
The idea of leading a group of phantasms and gunning/cutting down mobs is truly epic.

I am sorry, I can’t agree with this idea at all… Like many have already stated, they are not pets. The class is essentially a boon/condition class…. summoning creates the boons and then blowing them up gives the conditions, the class benefits by understanding this unique mechanic. Additionally, there are effects that only get applied when illusions are destroyed (directly/indirectly). Part of the AoE power of the Mes is using your shatters for not only the direct damage effect but also the traited effects, I argue that mes AoE is weak or that we are weak in PvE. I attribute most of the complaints with the Mes being because people don’t understand the mechanics of this class. The class even from GW1 was a class that punishes attackers through counters/illusions/etc., it isn’t a direct damage class it is a confuse and abuse the enemy.

DreamOfACure.4382:

I’m fine with clones disappearing because they don’t do much besides draw aggro.

I would like Phantasms to stay though… They’re actually part of our DPS.
The idea of leading a group of phantasms and gunning/cutting down mobs is truly epic.

If you aren’t shattering and recasting your illusions (clones/phantasms) you are playing the class wrong :/ I only ever let mine stay up while they are on CD, recasting is faster then they attack(even traited)…

sinican.9250:

DreamOfACure.4382:

I’m fine with clones disappearing because they don’t do much besides draw aggro.

I would like Phantasms to stay though… They’re actually part of our DPS.
The idea of leading a group of phantasms and gunning/cutting down mobs is truly epic.

If you aren’t shattering and recasting your illusions (clones/phantasms) you are playing the class wrong :/ I only ever let mine stay up while they are on CD, recasting is faster then they attack(even traited)…

Then explain to me this… why do we have ranged clones/phantasms that get no wher e near enough to the target for shatter to have an effect at all?

I’d like to be able to use mirror images without a target so I can run around with clones up. Roaming WvW in particular :P

Phantasms should stay as is though.

Aazo.2841:

sinican.9250:

DreamOfACure.4382:

I’m fine with clones disappearing because they don’t do much besides draw aggro.

I would like Phantasms to stay though… They’re actually part of our DPS.
The idea of leading a group of phantasms and gunning/cutting down mobs is truly epic.

If you aren’t shattering and recasting your illusions (clones/phantasms) you are playing the class wrong :/ I only ever let mine stay up while they are on CD, recasting is faster then they attack(even traited)…

Then explain to me this… why do we have ranged clones/phantasms that get no wher e near enough to the target for shatter to have an effect at all?

So that they are all aren’t stupid AI that walk up to mobs that melee and die instantly from random AOE…. with ranged illusions you can place them strategically because they traditionally spawn on you and move close enough to deal dmg from range. When mobs approach the ranged illusions, they do not kite, and they are in idea position to shatter. Additionally, with ranged illusions you have the ability to create a chain of shatters instead of a single large shatter, this is great for staggering the effects such as daze and distortion.

Josh P.1296:

I’d like to be able to use mirror images without a target so I can run around with clones up. Roaming WvW in particular :P

Phantasms should stay as is though.

I too wish we could summon clones without a target… I’d like to have by boons/traits before an engagement like everyone else.

sinican.9250:

there are effects that only get applied when illusions are destroyed (directly/indirectly). Part of the AoE power of the Mes is using your shatters for not only the direct damage effect but also the traited effects

I wish it worked that way, but none of the traited “on death” effects for illusions are applied on shatter; they only apply when killed or replaced. I haven’t checked the current patch behavior for those traits, though. If they changed this in the 12/14 patch, it would be a major buff for shatter style.

The traits I’m talking about are “Crippling Dissipation”, “Debilitating Dissipation”, “Confusing Combatants”, etc.. The traits that target shattering directly work on shatter, of course.

—

BTW, it would be a relatively minor buff to not destroy illusions on target death. The gains would be fairly subtle, though — mostly a slight defensive gain when being ambushed. An attacker would need to paw through the clones to find the mesmer before jumping in. Oh, and Compounding Celerity would actually do something slightly useful.

I would far prefer a balanced weapon selection over this; eg. torch is laughably weak and scepter still doesn’t apply confusion as per the tool-tip.

Okuza.5210:

sinican.9250:

there are effects that only get applied when illusions are destroyed (directly/indirectly). Part of the AoE power of the Mes is using your shatters for not only the direct damage effect but also the traited effects

I wish it worked that way, but none of the traited “on death” effects for illusions are applied on shatter; they only apply when killed or replaced. I haven’t checked the current patch behavior for those traits, though. If they changed this in the 12/14 patch, it would be a major buff for shatter style.

The traits I’m talking about are “Crippling Dissipation”, “Debilitating Dissipation”, “Confusing Combatants”, etc.. The traits that target shattering directly work on shatter, of course.

—

BTW, it would be a relatively minor buff to not destroy illusions on target death. The gains would be fairly subtle, though — mostly a slight defensive gain when being ambushed. An attacker would need to paw through the clones to find the mesmer before jumping in. Oh, and Compounding Celerity would actually do something slightly useful.

I would far prefer a balanced weapon selection over this; eg. torch is laughably weak and scepter still doesn’t apply confusion as per the tool-tip.

I believe you are correct. There are traits that improve the shatters as well, I guess I am lumping them in with the killed/replaced traits. I use Debilitating Dissipation – applies random condition to nearby enemies when killed, and Illusionary Retribution – all shatters cause confusion (stacks with frustration). But I like to re-summon clones between shatter CDs which is essentially an AOE condition spam when you have max illusions out. With two phantasms out you are reliably only replacing the single clone. I love the synergies of this class

sinican.9250:

I am sorry, I can’t agree with this idea at all… Like many have already stated, they are not pets. The class is essentially a boon/condition class…. summoning creates the boons and then blowing them up gives the conditions, the class benefits by understanding this unique mechanic. Additionally, there are effects that only get applied when illusions are destroyed (directly/indirectly). Part of the AoE power of the Mes is using your shatters for not only the direct damage effect but also the traited effects, I argue that mes AoE is weak or that we are weak in PvE. I attribute most of the complaints with the Mes being because people don’t understand the mechanics of this class. The class even from GW1 was a class that punishes attackers through counters/illusions/etc., it isn’t a direct damage class it is a confuse and abuse the enemy.

You might be right in terms of clones, but phantasms are harder to create, with longer cooldowns than clones and in the end they just aren’t worth it for shatter builds. Your shatters simply won’t add enough AOE damage/control given how long it takes to recast your phantasms.

Because phantasms die as soon as their target does, and given their relatively long cooldowns, they simply aren’t viable for PVE. Shattering them does little to amend this, and ranged phantasms are hard to control in terms of shatters and will rarely actually deal AOE damage to the targets you want to hit.

I will concede that clones make decent expendable summons that can be used for shattering and inflicting conditions. Phantasms are not like this at all, they make very poor substitutes for clones in this instance. If the only viable way to play a mesmer in PVE is to run a shatter build, what incentive do we have to trait phantasms at all?

If phantasms lived beyond their target’s death, they’d have far more of a use in PVE. At the moment, there is no reason to waste any traits on them. Having a greater variety of builds makes for a much better play experience.

Rannug.2731:

The Final Doorman.2913:

A simple suggestion that would substantially improve the mesmer’s subpar multi-target PVE abilities while not overpowering them in PVP.

Illusions should not dissipate when their target dies. It discourages focus fire which is a powerful damage mitigation tool in PVE, and it would make things much easier for arguably the worst PVE profession in the game. It is just so easy for a mesmer to get overwhelmed by multiple targets given their general lack of AOE damage compared to other professions. My proposed fix would greatly even the playing field.

The current system doesn’t even make sense flavor wise. If the illusions exist only in the minds of the targets, why can other creatures attack them? If an illusion can only attack one target, that target should be the only thing that can attack said illusion. Conversely, if an illusion can be attacked by multiple creatures, it should be able to retaliate against any of those creatures. It is only logical, and would be a great balancing factor for PVE Mesmers.

This makes so much sense both in terms of flavor and in terms of balance. Please consider this seriously.

Totally agree with this ^^ if the lore is that the illusions are only in the minds of their targets then either they are only attackable by that target and vanish (explode) after the target is dead or if they exist in all of the surrounding enemies then they shouldn’t vanish until the last one is dead.

I have to give this a 3rd thumbs up. Just doesn’t make any kitten sense. It’s not like you can make an army of them. Max of three duh.

i was turned off immediatly when i found out illusions disapeared when the foe they were cast on died. and it is still annoying but once i got the two traits that reduce the weapon skill summons by 40% i think the slowest recharging illusion for weapon skills is the iWarden at like 15 sec. and then there is the trait that makes clones on dodge roll which is conveinently in the same tree as the minor trait that gives endurance on a crit-hit.

I think the key is just keep getting out illusions and eventually this becomes easier.

Illusions do not only get their physical form from the mind of the target but also their behavior; if the clone or phantom was to stay conjured after combat they would be like an empty shell with no will of their own and hence we shatter them, Mesmers are not minion masters we’re just not tailored for that type of magic.

As said above I completely agree that “illusions are not pets” and should not be treated as such. Personally I like to believe clones are just tokens used for shattering and distracting, and phantoms are just long lasting spells.

I can’t explain why Illusions can attack mindless/inanimate objects, I can only assume it because in the game engine illusions are skills and skills can hurt inanimate objects. Realistically Mesmer should as useless as a wet towel where inanimate objects are concerned.