Infinite Horizon shouldn't be a GM trait.
Yeah I agree. The minor Speed of Sand should be in the first Mirage spec trait. Because that’s the trait that takes away the small movement bonus we get from dodging anyway.
Infinite Horizon should be the minor Speed of Sand is. It seems like such a core trait for multiple things.
Dune Cloak is a nice trait but I feel like it will be underwhelming compared to Infinite Horizon. Even if its better than Infinite Horizon then everyone will just pick Dune Cloak instead because they’re both DPS traits.
Infinite Horizon seems like such a core trait, it doesn’t make sense that we have to choose between that and 2 other fine traits.
I agree that should be a minor trait as it kind of makes/breaks the theme of the spec – otherwise it’s going to be really easy to identify the real mesmer whenever they dodge.
I mean if they’re going to go to the whole trouble of removing normal dodge to make us blend in, then all clones should have the identical dodge effect whenever we dodge.
Mesmer has always been the “make something they absolutely can’t live without a GM trait” profession. There’s nothing new here.
It definitely should be a minor trait.
I will play devil’s advocate because I think this is an interesting point to explore.
Thematically, based on the descriptions provided by the developers in the release trailer, the Mirage is all about enabling the Mesmer to blend into their environment, most especially the desert.
In the game world, this presumedly makes opponents question whether or not the Mesmer is really there or just a mirage, the desert playing tricks on them. This is in contrast to the idea that it makes the Mesmer appear as if they were one of their traditional illusions, which is decidedly not the theme.
Infinite Horizon expands this theme to include illusions, making opponents in the game world wonder if the illusions are mirages too. Because illusions exist in the minds of opponents, this acts as an additional layer of confusion, causing the opponent to further question what is real and what is not.
In the game world, opponents already question which illusion is the real Mesmer. Helping the Mesmer blend into their illusions is a player interpretation forced on to the theme, not actually part of the native theme.
There is no reason why the trait still could not be included as a minor and just always have the theme expand to include illusions, except in so far as allowing the Mirage room to distance its identity from the Mesmer as a clone/phantasm generator. In other words, not including guaranteed access allows the Mirage to deemphasize traditional illusions in favour of emphasizing cloaking themselves in illusion magic so far as theme and identity are concerned.
Regarding gameplay and player opponents, the “illusions get ambush” mechanic was likely considered too strong to grant to all Mirages on top of other grandmaster traits and mechanics. Regarding balance, it probably made sense to enforce choice on the player. Considering room for counterplaying (illusion cleaving, dodging a single coordinated attack, projectile reflection, etc.) and potential incoming nerfs, there is probably gameplay space for the other traits to see use, especially once players get used to it and how to counter it.
This is just playing devil’s advocate for the sake of discussion. Personally, I see and understand the argument for, but I am undecided as to where I stand on it without actual in-game experience with it both thematically and mechanically.
Going to have to step in and disagree heavily with this because I want Mirage to be viable in all game modes and you don’t know what you’re asking for.
GM Trait: Dune Cloak: Use Sand shards when you gain mirage cloak. Conditions applied to bleeding foes have increased duration (20%).
Sand shards: AOE bleeds 2 stacks, 6 seconds, 5 target aoe, 180 radius.
If infinite horizon becomes a minor, all illusions get both an ambush attack AND sand shards every time the mirage gains a mirage cloak. That’s going to break balance for a few reasons.
1) The damage is currently balanced around one or the other of these GMs. Having both means that one, or more likely both, get nerfed heavily.
2) Infinite horizon looks easy to counter in PvP. All the illusions attack at the same time so 1 dodge will counter it all. The scepter, staff and axe ambushes (don’t know about the sword/gs yet) are projectiles and likely to be reflectable. Sand shards is instant AOE. Not OP if it’s just the Mirage. 4 procs of an instant cast aoe damage.. is a problem for Sand shard balance.
3) Mesmers have been asking for damage to be tied less to illusions regardless of PvE illusion issues in certain fights or WvW “My illusions blow up instantly and are useless” reasons. I see sand shards as a illusionless DPS GM while infinite horizon is the illusion DPS GM. They should remain mutually exclusive so that both can be balanced to be strong in their respective areas.
Especially for the WvW zerg players that want to DPS as a mesmer, infinite horizon can’t be a minor because they need something like Sand shards to work. Instead we should be asking for a buff to Sand shards. That 180 radius is pitiful. Also think it needs more damage.
I guess the thought behind making both skills split is that they can adjust the strength of both skills independently. If you could have infinite horizon and dune cloak at the same time you would probably need to make dune cloak either weaker or limit it to not proccing on clones. If they are split you can make the decision of picking infinite horizon and going for clone ambush damage or you could pick dune cloak and rely on your own ambushes and cast pistol phantasms to deal the damage or even staff phantasms although its probably difficult to get enough power stats in a condi build to make staff phantasms good enough. Although the current condi mesmer dps is 10k dps behind other top condi specs so they might need both traits at the same time to compete but it’s hard to tell if one of the two routes alone is enough to push either the clone build or the phantasm build to be able to compete with other classes.
(edited by abullenfla.9632)
Going to have to step in and disagree heavily with this because I want Mirage to be viable in all game modes and you don’t know what you’re asking for.
GM Trait: Dune Cloak: Use Sand shards when you gain mirage cloak. Conditions applied to bleeding foes have increased duration (20%).
Sand shards: AOE bleeds 2 stacks, 6 seconds, 5 target aoe, 180 radius.If infinite horizon becomes a minor, all illusions get both an ambush attack AND sand shards every time the mirage gains a mirage cloak. That’s going to break balance for a few reasons.
1) The damage is currently balanced around one or the other of these GMs. Having both means that one, or more likely both, get nerfed heavily.
2) Infinite horizon looks easy to counter in PvP. All the illusions attack at the same time so 1 dodge will counter it all. The scepter, staff and axe ambushes (don’t know about the sword/gs yet) are projectiles and likely to be reflectable. Sand shards is instant AOE. Not OP if it’s just the Mirage. 4 procs of an instant cast aoe damage.. is a problem for Sand shard balance.
3) Mesmers have been asking for damage to be tied less to illusions regardless of PvE illusion issues in certain fights or WvW “My illusions blow up instantly and are useless” reasons. I see sand shards as a illusionless DPS GM while infinite horizon is the illusion DPS GM. They should remain mutually exclusive so that both can be balanced to be strong in their respective areas.
Especially for the WvW zerg players that want to DPS as a mesmer, infinite horizon can’t be a minor because they need something like Sand shards to work. Instead we should be asking for a buff to Sand shards. That 180 radius is pitiful. Also think it needs more damage.
What if they separated the dodge blur from the mirage cloak effect for clones?
So for example all illusions would blur as standard (minor trait) whenever you dodge but with no ambush attacks, however you have the separate major GM trait to give them the effect of “Mirage Cloak” so they get the ambush attacks only with this major trait.
That way at least visually it would maintain some of the playability of pretending to be a clone, even if it won’t fool most good players for long in pvp, but if you want clones to get the ambush effect then you have to trait for it separately.
Only downside of course is as soon as you use a personal ambush attack it would distinguish you immediately anyway, but this can’t be avoided whatever trait combination is used.
Going to have to step in and disagree heavily with this because I want Mirage to be viable in all game modes and you don’t know what you’re asking for.
GM Trait: Dune Cloak: Use Sand shards when you gain mirage cloak. Conditions applied to bleeding foes have increased duration (20%).
Sand shards: AOE bleeds 2 stacks, 6 seconds, 5 target aoe, 180 radius.If infinite horizon becomes a minor, all illusions get both an ambush attack AND sand shards every time the mirage gains a mirage cloak. That’s going to break balance for a few reasons.
1) The damage is currently balanced around one or the other of these GMs. Having both means that one, or more likely both, get nerfed heavily.
2) Infinite horizon looks easy to counter in PvP. All the illusions attack at the same time so 1 dodge will counter it all. The scepter, staff and axe ambushes (don’t know about the sword/gs yet) are projectiles and likely to be reflectable. Sand shards is instant AOE. Not OP if it’s just the Mirage. 4 procs of an instant cast aoe damage.. is a problem for Sand shard balance.
3) Mesmers have been asking for damage to be tied less to illusions regardless of PvE illusion issues in certain fights or WvW “My illusions blow up instantly and are useless” reasons. I see sand shards as a illusionless DPS GM while infinite horizon is the illusion DPS GM. They should remain mutually exclusive so that both can be balanced to be strong in their respective areas.
Especially for the WvW zerg players that want to DPS as a mesmer, infinite horizon can’t be a minor because they need something like Sand shards to work. Instead we should be asking for a buff to Sand shards. That 180 radius is pitiful. Also think it needs more damage.
Sand shards is kitten, nobodies going to care about a small amount of bleeding that you have to be in melee ranged to be hit by, whther a Mesmer is the one doing it or a Mesmer is doing it and the 3 clones you are nowhere near are doing it. Either way they can make it so it doesn’t effect clones.
1. No since the trait exists they are going to balance the damage around the presumption that you have that GM, thats how they always balance.
2. See first paragraph.
3. The damage is already tied to illusions, see point 1. There is nothing in this spec that makes any significant damage come from the Mesmer itself.
In it current state if you don’t pick that GM trait then the new mechanics of the elite spec is having a dodge that is worse then Base Mesmer’s dodge. How is that good?
Sand shards is kitten, nobodies going to care about a small amount of bleeding that you have to be in melee ranged to be hit by, whther a Mesmer is the one doing it or a Mesmer is doing it and the 3 clones you are nowhere near are doing it.
…
…. Instead we should be asking for a buff to Sand shards. That 180 radius is pitiful. Also think it needs more damage.
I seriously don’t get why so many ppl on the gw2 forum have the logic that get’s them to the state something along the lines of “It’s bad, so it should stay bad but buff the good stuff even more.”
Sand shards isn’t just the bleed, it’s also easy 20% condition duration in PvE. In combo with signet of midnight and the nerfs to all the condi duration food/utilities coming soon, that’s too good of a trait to have in combo with Infinite Horizon even if illusions don’t proc the aoe bleed because those illusions still benefit from the 20% condi duration boost.
3. The damage is already tied to illusions, see point 1. There is nothing in this spec that makes any significant damage come from the Mesmer itself.
In it current state if you don’t pick that GM trait then the new mechanics of the elite spec is having a dodge that is worse then Base Mesmer’s dodge. How is that good?
The new dodge can be used while channeling skills and not cancel the channel. Dodging is no longer a DPS loss. It no longer cancels a heal you might be casting. The new dodge, regardless of GM status, gives the Mirage an ambush attack too. At least for ether barrage, clones do half condi duration. Regardless of which ambush, clones do basically zero power damage too while the mesmer actually does damage. It’s factually better than base mesmer’s dodge in every way.
I seriously don’t get why so many ppl on the gw2 forum have the logic that get’s them to the state something along the lines of “It’s bad, so it should stay bad but buff the good stuff even more.”
We are playing GW2. This is how they balance. The last 3, i think patches, alone buffed thieves raid build damage while doing nothing to Mesmers.
Its not about buffs anyway, its about trying to salvage this kitten hole of a spec and one of the many fixes it needs is to give the elite spec its main mechanic without having to use a GM. Or would you like them to bring IP back as well?
The new dodge can be used while channeling skills and not cancel the channel. Dodging is no longer a DPS loss. It no longer cancels a heal you might be casting. The new dodge, regardless of GM status, gives the Mirage an ambush attack too. At least for ether barrage, clones do half condi duration. Regardless of which ambush, clones do basically zero power damage too while the mesmer actually does damage. It’s factually better than base mesmer’s dodge in every way.
Dodging not giving a dps loss means jack kitten when our DPS is nothing to begin with. It may give you an ambush attack but its an attack that is based around having 4 clones out and having a certain GM picked, oh what were we talking about again. There was also no reason to tie this in with dodges in the first place. Its not better if it just leaves you standing in harms way.
Going to have to step in and disagree heavily with this because I want Mirage to be viable in all game modes and you don’t know what you’re asking for.
GM Trait: Dune Cloak: Use Sand shards when you gain mirage cloak. Conditions applied to bleeding foes have increased duration (20%).
Sand shards: AOE bleeds 2 stacks, 6 seconds, 5 target aoe, 180 radius.If infinite horizon becomes a minor, all illusions get both an ambush attack AND sand shards every time the mirage gains a mirage cloak. That’s going to break balance for a few reasons.
1) The damage is currently balanced around one or the other of these GMs. Having both means that one, or more likely both, get nerfed heavily.
2) Infinite horizon looks easy to counter in PvP. All the illusions attack at the same time so 1 dodge will counter it all. The scepter, staff and axe ambushes (don’t know about the sword/gs yet) are projectiles and likely to be reflectable. Sand shards is instant AOE. Not OP if it’s just the Mirage. 4 procs of an instant cast aoe damage.. is a problem for Sand shard balance.
3) Mesmers have been asking for damage to be tied less to illusions regardless of PvE illusion issues in certain fights or WvW “My illusions blow up instantly and are useless” reasons. I see sand shards as a illusionless DPS GM while infinite horizon is the illusion DPS GM. They should remain mutually exclusive so that both can be balanced to be strong in their respective areas.
Especially for the WvW zerg players that want to DPS as a mesmer, infinite horizon can’t be a minor because they need something like Sand shards to work. Instead we should be asking for a buff to Sand shards. That 180 radius is pitiful. Also think it needs more damage.
This would still be less powerful than some of the other specs previewed though, which means mirage would still be behind.
By itself Dune Clock is not GM worthy in almost all game modes, and slapping extra 20% duration is very unoriginal. Heck with the 50% vigor nerf how can you justify 2 bleed that you can only give when dodging. I’d see Dune Clock + IH being OP only in PvP mode, since reaper’s deathly chill trait by itself can already deal similar if not higher burst bleed stacks in PvE/WvW.
So make IH adept, but change Dune Clock’s function with it in PvP can easily prevent this issue while satisfy all parties. Something like 1 stack of bleed for clones only but longer duration. Remember when mesmer had to use DE to get damage? Its a tradeoff that’s unviable in current meta and I doubt IH + Dune Clock will be any different.
As far as I can tell sand shards has no ICD, start considering that and how many ways you can get mirage cloak (hint there’s another trait for this) and you can see some obvious synergy. The question for me is if these mirage cloaks you can pick up also make you evade attacks, if so you can have some high evade and damage uptime, slap some krait runes on and that’s 2×9s of bleed every time you evade or shatter.
4-6 bleeds will knock off half the opponents health and I’m not including the additional condition duration part which will become a free 20% duration almost. This is not a terrible trait at all.
Maybe we could just wait for the beta test to come up before saying that this trait needs to be minor or not…
As far as I can tell sand shards has no ICD, start considering that and how many ways you can get mirage cloak (hint there’s another trait for this) and you can see some obvious synergy. The question for me is if these mirage cloaks you can pick up also make you evade attacks, if so you can have some high evade and damage uptime, slap some krait runes on and that’s 2×9s of bleed every time you evade or shatter.
4-6 bleeds will knock off half the opponents health and I’m not including the additional condition duration part which will become a free 20% duration almost. This is not a terrible trait at all.
That’s all fine and well, but you need the GM to apply mirage cloack to your clones presumably (there might be an inherent AoE application in a small radius around you, idk). And truthfully, those ambush attacks are really only good if you are throwing off 3 or 4 of them at once. So sharing mirage cloak with clones should be baseline
I don’t think it would need to be a minor. To much condi synergy with dune cloak and honestly for the sake of deception we need more target dropping skills if we’re going to feasibly hide among our illusions and expect this to fool anyone.
I also call into question to how vital this trait is in terms of damage. This trait might only be superior for condi when using two condi weapon sets. Dune cloak might turn out to be more reliable on condi builds if sword remains meta for one reason or another, and it turns out the ambush is negligible for illusions unless they stack damaging condis. Plus I highly doubt this would be enough for them to survive any reliable AoE
“I control time and space; you can’t break free.~”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
“Maybe I was the illusion all along!”
As far as I can tell sand shards has no ICD, start considering that and how many ways you can get mirage cloak (hint there’s another trait for this) and you can see some obvious synergy. The question for me is if these mirage cloaks you can pick up also make you evade attacks, if so you can have some high evade and damage uptime, slap some krait runes on and that’s 2×9s of bleed every time you evade or shatter.
4-6 bleeds will knock off half the opponents health and I’m not including the additional condition duration part which will become a free 20% duration almost. This is not a terrible trait at all.
That’s all fine and well, but you need the GM to apply mirage cloack to your clones presumably (there might be an inherent AoE application in a small radius around you, idk). And truthfully, those ambush attacks are really only good if you are throwing off 3 or 4 of them at once. So sharing mirage cloak with clones should be baseline
We don’t really know how good the attacks are and the ability to make clones do that attack sounds like an upgrade not something that should be baseline considering how strong it could be. I don’t want a repeat of HoT where things are just power crept and allowing crazy trait synergy.
Allowing these two traits in the same build would be insane, it would be the old roaming Mesmer on steroids, still might be even picking one of these traits.
As long as the trait exists, its going to be balanced around the potential to do 4 ambush attacks at once.
Ambush is probably already in the crosshairs to be given to one or more other classes. We’ll probably see turret engis with an ambush burst before long.
So, I don’t see it as a big factor in this discussion.
The wiki says that Ambush is exclusive to Mirage.. It also said that about Alacrity vis a vis Chronomancer.
Mesmerising Girl
Ambush is probably already in the crosshairs to be given to one or more other classes. We’ll probably see turret engis with an ambush burst before long.
So, I don’t see it as a big factor in this discussion.
The wiki says that Ambush is exclusive to Mirage.. It also said that about Alacrity.
Well tbh thief already has it from stealth, but I hear you and agree that everything will be shared to at least one other class come expansion 3.
As far as I can tell sand shards has no ICD, start considering that and how many ways you can get mirage cloak (hint there’s another trait for this) and you can see some obvious synergy. The question for me is if these mirage cloaks you can pick up also make you evade attacks, if so you can have some high evade and damage uptime, slap some krait runes on and that’s 2×9s of bleed every time you evade or shatter.
4-6 bleeds will knock off half the opponents health and I’m not including the additional condition duration part which will become a free 20% duration almost. This is not a terrible trait at all.
That’s all fine and well, but you need the GM to apply mirage cloack to your clones presumably (there might be an inherent AoE application in a small radius around you, idk). And truthfully, those ambush attacks are really only good if you are throwing off 3 or 4 of them at once. So sharing mirage cloak with clones should be baseline
We don’t really know how good the attacks are and the ability to make clones do that attack sounds like an upgrade not something that should be baseline considering how strong it could be. I don’t want a repeat of HoT where things are just power crept and allowing crazy trait synergy.
Allowing these two traits in the same build would be insane, it would be the old roaming Mesmer on steroids, still might be even picking one of these traits.
We have tooltips for some of them, and they are fairly underwhelming when you can only use them 1 at a time (say, like, if your clones aren’t getting mirage cloak, so only you can perform the ambush attacks).
From what I have seen, it looks like the spec is designed around and balanced around your clones having access to mirage cloak as well, so if we have to trait just to give it to them, then its underwhelming imo. Though the mirrors might automatically grant cloak to the clones as well, which would be different.
As far as I can tell sand shards has no ICD, start considering that and how many ways you can get mirage cloak (hint there’s another trait for this) and you can see some obvious synergy. The question for me is if these mirage cloaks you can pick up also make you evade attacks, if so you can have some high evade and damage uptime, slap some krait runes on and that’s 2×9s of bleed every time you evade or shatter.
4-6 bleeds will knock off half the opponents health and I’m not including the additional condition duration part which will become a free 20% duration almost. This is not a terrible trait at all.
That’s all fine and well, but you need the GM to apply mirage cloack to your clones presumably (there might be an inherent AoE application in a small radius around you, idk). And truthfully, those ambush attacks are really only good if you are throwing off 3 or 4 of them at once. So sharing mirage cloak with clones should be baseline
We don’t really know how good the attacks are and the ability to make clones do that attack sounds like an upgrade not something that should be baseline considering how strong it could be. I don’t want a repeat of HoT where things are just power crept and allowing crazy trait synergy.
Allowing these two traits in the same build would be insane, it would be the old roaming Mesmer on steroids, still might be even picking one of these traits.
We have tooltips for some of them, and they are fairly underwhelming when you can only use them 1 at a time (say, like, if your clones aren’t getting mirage cloak, so only you can perform the ambush attacks).
From what I have seen, it looks like the spec is designed around and balanced around your clones having access to mirage cloak as well, so if we have to trait just to give it to them, then its underwhelming imo. Though the mirrors might automatically grant cloak to the clones as well, which would be different.
I dunno, you’re seeing it as something we have to use, I see it as this is a bonus attack we get for simply dodging. Simply pressing the dodge button shouldn’t launch powerful attacks on its own which is what this trait will do for condi specs with 2 clones up + self.
Not sure if you’re reading the ambush attacks right, the sceptre one can put 5 torment and confusion on a target and the staff one can put 2 onto upto 5 people, just by dodging to activate. Extending that to even 1 clone will put a lot more condition pressure out and we don’t even know what the others do.
In a 1v1 even with 1 clone out infinite horizon adds a lot more damage and attacks other players have to avoid and there only so many dodges…unless you’re a kitten devil.
As far as I can tell sand shards has no ICD, start considering that and how many ways you can get mirage cloak (hint there’s another trait for this) and you can see some obvious synergy. The question for me is if these mirage cloaks you can pick up also make you evade attacks, if so you can have some high evade and damage uptime, slap some krait runes on and that’s 2×9s of bleed every time you evade or shatter.
4-6 bleeds will knock off half the opponents health and I’m not including the additional condition duration part which will become a free 20% duration almost. This is not a terrible trait at all.
That’s all fine and well, but you need the GM to apply mirage cloack to your clones presumably (there might be an inherent AoE application in a small radius around you, idk). And truthfully, those ambush attacks are really only good if you are throwing off 3 or 4 of them at once. So sharing mirage cloak with clones should be baseline
We don’t really know how good the attacks are and the ability to make clones do that attack sounds like an upgrade not something that should be baseline considering how strong it could be. I don’t want a repeat of HoT where things are just power crept and allowing crazy trait synergy.
Allowing these two traits in the same build would be insane, it would be the old roaming Mesmer on steroids, still might be even picking one of these traits.
We have tooltips for some of them, and they are fairly underwhelming when you can only use them 1 at a time (say, like, if your clones aren’t getting mirage cloak, so only you can perform the ambush attacks).
From what I have seen, it looks like the spec is designed around and balanced around your clones having access to mirage cloak as well, so if we have to trait just to give it to them, then its underwhelming imo. Though the mirrors might automatically grant cloak to the clones as well, which would be different.
I dunno, you’re seeing it as something we have to use, I see it as this is a bonus attack we get for simply dodging. Simply pressing the dodge button shouldn’t launch powerful attacks on its own which is what this trait will do for condi specs with 2 clones up + self.
Not sure if you’re reading the ambush attacks right, the sceptre one can put 5 torment and confusion on a target and the staff one can put 2 onto upto 5 people, just by dodging to activate. Extending that to even 1 clone will put a lot more condition pressure out and we don’t even know what the others do.
In a 1v1 even with 1 clone out infinite horizon adds a lot more damage and attacks other players have to avoid and there only so many dodges…unless you’re a kitten devil.
Except thats all the elite spec does, it doens’t add any other new powerful attacks and the weapon skills are crap. Without this GM trait all the Elite spec gives you is a worse dodge. I would have prefered new shatters and a powerful weapon but instead we got this gimmick that we need to use our GM to even get.
Last thing i’d want is yet another shatter focused spec.
I dunno, you’re seeing it as something we have to use, I see it as this is a bonus attack we get for simply dodging. Simply pressing the dodge button shouldn’t launch powerful attacks on its own which is what this trait will do for condi specs with 2 clones up + self.
Not sure if you’re reading the ambush attacks right, the sceptre one can put 5 torment and confusion on a target and the staff one can put 2 onto upto 5 people, just by dodging to activate. Extending that to even 1 clone will put a lot more condition pressure out and we don’t even know what the others do.
In a 1v1 even with 1 clone out infinite horizon adds a lot more damage and attacks other players have to avoid and there only so many dodges…unless you’re a kitten devil.
Except thats all the elite spec does, it doens’t add any other new powerful attacks and the weapon skills are crap. Without this GM trait all the Elite spec gives you is a worse dodge. I would have prefered new shatters and a powerful weapon but instead we got this gimmick that we need to use our GM to even get.
It does add new attacks, the ambush attacks you get when you dodge which are strong for a condition spec and they are baseline for picking the elite spec. There’s also other traits that add increased condition damage with vigor with vigor on shatter, super speed after dodge, some of the majors give clone production and mirage mirrors after a shatter for more evade uptime.
How the ambush attacks work I’ll want to see but if they are active as soon as you dodge to gain mirage cloak you should be able to activate it while in mirage cloak. This means you’ll be essentially unable to be stopped doing these attacks if you’re quick.
I’d have rather replaced shatter skills with skills to control your clones/phantasms, similar to ranger F2 pet mechanics.
Could still have synergy with core shatter traits through the attacks of your clones/phantasms, proccing aoe around your target, or giving you buffs directly (ie bountiful disillusionment).
Then give more ways for illusions to survive and allow each F skill to be able to change their designated target (like axe 3 does).
That might have allowed it to be a balls deep phantasm /illusion spec in total contrast to the shatterspam of chrono.
@apharma – I guess we’re looking at it differently. This was billed as a DPS spec, no? Yet it pumps out primarily stacks of torment and confusion from what I have seen. Yes, the 1 scepter attack outputs 5 stacks of each, but compared to what some of these other specs are putting out that’s just downright pitiful. Holosmith’s third strike in the auto attack chain has a base damage of around 1,000 and you honestly think that a single ambush attack will keep up with specs like that? It won’t sadly. Either infinite horizon should be moved to minor, or every spec should be nerfed hard immediately.
Also, remember the tradeoff. I don’t know how abundant the mirrors are going to be yet, but without them we are using a dodge to pull off ambush attacks. So they aren’t exactly free, if there are no mirrors out, we have to actually use a dodge to pull them off, which means we have to decide between saving a dodge for a big attack or doing a bit of extra damage for 1, maybe 2, attacks.
Unless I’m understanding this wrong, a singular Ether Barrage puts out an average of 2.5 confusion and 2.5 torment because it reads either one or the other, not both.
If Infinite Horizon is going to be moved, it absolutely should be a minor or built into the mechanic, anywhere else will just rule out selection of alternatives in that tier as the discussion suggests now.
The only place that Dune Cloak makes sense is in PvE unless Infinite Horizon allows phantasms to deal effective power damage, in which case I do not see a place for Dune Cloak as is. It requires melee and condition duration is usually favored less over condition damage by most PvP players. Infinite Horizon is just too versatile in any kind of player vs player format for Dune Cloak to see use there.
Elusive Mind is a very different beast. I could see this being used in a non-damage, support role allowing the Mirage to take additional support utilities over stun breaks.
(edited by Allarius.5670)
Addendum to previous thought …
What if Wooden Potatoes was partially correct in “clones have auto attack > ambush changes auto attack > clones get ambush”. Consider that Infinite Horizon applies the Mirage Cloak trait to all of your illusions, but the ambush skill is an auto attack flip mechanic and phantasms do not share the auto attack. This would mean that only clones get the ambush, but phantasms still get the blur.
Consider also that the ambush skills we’ve seen so far apply torment and confusion, decidedly less effective conditions in PvE. Axe clones can be very effective bleed spammers and PvE mesmer aims to primarily stack bleeds via pistol.
I’m not a hard core PvE’er, but this does seem to suggest that Dune Cloak was intended for PvE use and squarely places each grandmaster into a different function: Infinite Horizon to diversify condition application outside of shatters in PvP settings, Elusive Mind for defense/support/power PvP roles, and Dune Cloak for PvE condi dps.
(edited by Allarius.5670)
@apharma – I guess we’re looking at it differently. This was billed as a DPS spec, no? Yet it pumps out primarily stacks of torment and confusion from what I have seen. Yes, the 1 scepter attack outputs 5 stacks of each, but compared to what some of these other specs are putting out that’s just downright pitiful. Holosmith’s third strike in the auto attack chain has a base damage of around 1,000 and you honestly think that a single ambush attack will keep up with specs like that? It won’t sadly. Either infinite horizon should be moved to minor, or every spec should be nerfed hard immediately.
Also, remember the tradeoff. I don’t know how abundant the mirrors are going to be yet, but without them we are using a dodge to pull off ambush attacks. So they aren’t exactly free, if there are no mirrors out, we have to actually use a dodge to pull them off, which means we have to decide between saving a dodge for a big attack or doing a bit of extra damage for 1, maybe 2, attacks.
I can’t honestly believe you’re complaining about having to make a tactical decision like that. Remember with infinite horizon your clones will automatically use the ambush skill so any that are littering around will automatically “burst” attack while you are evading an attack you want to dodge.
The GM trait choices come down to a condition damage increase for melee focused players, a condition/burst increase for those playing a clone heavy style or a quite frankly rediculously good survivability trait. All will have places I’m sure and none have to be universally amazing for every mode.
As for nerfing specs, I believe HoT elites are being toned down at the same time as PoF elites are coming out which is why there’s some more conservative skills, traits, cool downs and cast times. I’m not saying there aren’t discrepancies but that’s why we have beta weekends and balance patches.
Complaining? No. But look at the attacks again. As individual attacks, they aren’t near strong enough to warrant using a dodge to gain access to it. They just aren’t. Only when using clones to launch 3 or 4 ambush attacks at once are they worth that tradeoff
Complaining? No. But look at the attacks again. As individual attacks, they aren’t near strong enough to warrant using a dodge to gain access to it. They just aren’t. Only when using clones to launch 3 or 4 ambush attacks at once are they worth that tradeoff
That’s the thing, you shouldn’t be using your dodge to ambush but instead using ambush when you dodge. From what I gather the dodge allows you to cast while in the evade frame which is extended to a full 1s. Most classes are vulnerable while attacking (yes I know some skills do damage while evading but not all) so while you dodge they will eat the ambush unless they’re quick on the dodge to interrupt.
Having even 2 clones out and yourself using these ambush attacks is going to hurt in a condi build, that’s 6 confusion and/or torment depending on the skill. This is more than cry of frustration will ever do. Even 1 clone and yourself will put 4 confusion and/or torment if it hits which is nothing to be sniffed at.