Guild Wars 2

So for the sake of simplifying the things lets consider 5-man party/sub-group (cause hopping is no longer possible) and boons/buffs things are for 5 man anyway.

What im wondering is:

How big of a boost is perma alacrity+quickness to the “meta” range of classes? Lets assume an average since this buffs dont affect all classes the same way. Lets assume also this are the only buffs being applied. So a clean build vs the same build buffed with this. How big the dps was increased for real?

And now lets assume a Warrior (PS). Same test conditions for the same “meta classes” and averaging it but now the total of boons/buffs are:

1070 Power ( 25 might = 750 + 170 from banner + 150 from Empower Allies)
170 Precision ( banner)
170 Ferocity (banner)
920 Condition Damage (170 banner + 750 from 25 might)

How big the dps increase is with this status?

Worth mentioning (but lets leave on hold for a second step):
Lets not be biased and consider, YET, that a warrior mantaining that buffs permantly is far more easy than a mesmer. Also that the personal DPS sacrifices (building to aim this support rather than going full dps) are not as big(as the full class potential) AND the dps itself of this class is far superior in the first place.
Also lets not bring to the table, yet, the amount of dmg increase conditions that each class can apply to a target (vulnerability for ex.)

Note. Ive chosen warrior for this example cause it is the icon of dps increase “support” class/build. But we can consider druid/ele/rev.. etc etc.
Obs: Did you get the point?

Added spoilers to shrink the wall of text to easier get to the point.

Agreed. Solution. Make warriors stronger by having banners stackable and affects 10 people. So a 10man warrior team is completely plausable and is faster than any other raid group. We need to go back to CoF P1 Warrior only, that we had in 2012.

Why chill il Not op? Maybe because in Not a Mesmer condizioni?

[quote=5968937;francescoG.1069:]

Herald
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shared_Empowerment
5 stacks of might when only using the fury facet. Drop sigil of air for strength and they can maintain 11-14 with just the passive trait.

Condi necro is a major thing now. BiP is part of their rotation and is 8 stacks of might for 8 seconds every 20 seconds. Doesn’t seem like that much BUT necros work best in pairs or more for epidemic chain combos. Add a herald in the mix since those are still a thing and you get. 2 necros = 16 stacks of might every 20 seconds that last 12 seconds or another ~10 stacks maintained from just the necro. Tempests: Overload fire 10 pulses of 18 (with herald) seconds of might. Necros and tempest stuff I mentioned? It gets even BETTER with alacrity since both of those classes spam those skills as part of their DPS rotation.

But wait, there’s more! Since mesmers do “ZERO” damage anyways, why doesn’t the chrono bring sigil of strength. With 100% boon duration, fried golden dumplings are 10 seconds of might with no ICD. Sigil of strength is 20 seconds of might per proc (1 sec ICD). And if I really wanted to go all out, boon duration gear instead of sigil of concentration. Therefore, I go sigil of battle too for another 8 stacks maintained by the mesmer (battle would be 40 seconds of 2 might on weapon swap). The inspiration chrono brings double SoI… and oh wait, that also doubles all the might that heralds, necros and tempests give to the chrono.

Compare “unique” buffs, not generic ones like might or fury. (Quickness is pretty close to unique for mesmer for party support, especially when guard is the only other option). So quickness and alacrity vs banners and empower allies.

TLDR:
Dungeons used to be eles blasting might and when PS came out, it was called useless. Took the meta too long to shift to PSEA. Builds and skills have changed but just like people clung to ele blasting might, so too are people clinging to the idea that only warriors can give Might. Also check on Xyo’s build on healing/tank chrono that still provides alacrity/quickness. Can a warrior do that? Might is not just a PSEA warrior’s domain. The real comparison you need to make is ranger buffs to chrono buffs because ranger is actually the most unique buffs that rival chronos.

Heya,

You don’t have to do so much “math”, it’s much MUCH simpler, since everything is % based:

If you assume you have 100% alacrity and quickness uptime you can assume this:
Quickness buffs auto attacks by 50% damage, or rather: skills with 0s CD.
Alacrity buffs skills WITH a cd by up to 25% (40% earlier), aslong as you also have quickness for the casttime itself.

TL;DR:
100% Alacrity and Quickness uptime reulted (pre nerf) into 40-50% damage boost, right now it boosts each person’s dps by 25-50% according on their aa:cdskills ratio. More aa’s = rather 50% dmg. If you only use skills with CD’s, 25%.

Greez!
- Madame Le Blanc.

Thanks, now if you can calculate the other experiment dps increase, and then we can compare.

Xyonon.3987:

Heya,

You don’t have to do so much “math”, it’s much MUCH simpler, since everything is % based:

If you assume you have 100% alacrity and quickness uptime you can assume this:
Quickness buffs auto attacks by 50% damage, or rather: skills with 0s CD.
Alacrity buffs skills WITH a cd by up to 25% (40% earlier), aslong as you also have quickness for the casttime itself.

TL;DR:
100% Alacrity and Quickness uptime reulted (pre nerf) into 40-50% damage boost, right now it boosts each person’s dps by 25-50% according on their aa:cdskills ratio. More aa’s = rather 50% dmg. If you only use skills with CD’s, 25%.

Greez!
- Madame Le Blanc.

This is not how the inverse thingy works. If a skill recharges 33% faster, I will use it 33% more often and it will contribute 33% more dps.

So it is 33%-50% now and was 50%-66% before. But it’s only a rough estimation anyway.

33% faster recharge means every 1 sec, 1.33 sec pass. This is a CDR of 25%. In the old times 66% faster recharge meant 40% CDR for a 100% uptime.

Yes, I know, but if a skill has 25% less recharge, you will use it 33% more often.

Look at it like this: We make alacrity to 100% increased rc. Every 1s, the skill recharges 2s. this means it halves its recharge. But then you use it twice as often, and that is a 100% increase in skill usage.

Oh boy – you’re totally right Q_Q what a terrible fallacy on my side

What I look like after reading your post:

greez! xP

I think you guys are way off and simplifying things waaay too much. Right now, you guys are assuming that someone is using ONE skill and they are not attacking between cool downs. In reality though, a class is constantly using skills. The situation of how much alacrity boosts dps is a lot more complicated question that ultimately deals with what class has the alacrity because what mainly matters with alacrity is the difference between the classes auto attack and cool down skills. However, it is actually even more complicated than that still. Thats why it is best just to test this in the actual field. However, if you really want to look at it theoretically, if we assume an elementalist only has the skills fireball and lava front, you are looking at roughly an 14.56% increase in dps. It is not 25% and not 33%. I can explain in the math below.
fireball takes 1 second to cast while lava front does not have any activation time. We are going to assume a robot is controlling the character and can play perfectly.

no alacrity (6 sec cool down on lava front)
343 +4x1,292, 5 sec x 343, 343 +4x1,292, 5 sec x 343, 343 + 4 x1,292, 3sec x 343
total time = 16 sec
total dmg = 20,992
20,992/16 = 1,312 dmg/sec

alacrity (4.5 sec cool down on lava front, note: I averaged this time by having one lava front cast in 4 seconds and one cast in 5 seconds see below)

343 + 4×1,292, 3 sec x 343, 343 + 4×1,292, 4 sec x 343, 343 + 4×1,292, 3sec x 343
total time = 13 sec
total dmg = 19,963
19,963/13 sec = 1,535.62 dmg/sec

(1,312x)+1,312=1,535.62
x = 17.04%

The most confusing part about this is that the cool down on lava front start right after you cast it and I am saying the robot is casting both skills at the same time. With other classes the results will be different. However, you definitely can’t straight out say its a 25% or 33% dps increase.

Xstein.2187:

343 +4x1,292, 5 sec x 343, 343 +4x1,292, 5 sec x 343, 343 + 4 x1,292, 3sec x 343

343 + 4×1,292, 3 sec x 343, 343 + 4×1,292, 4 sec x 343, 343 + 4×1,292, 3sec x 343

wat? ö.ö

Xyonon.3987:

Xstein.2187:

343 +4x1,292, 5 sec x 343, 343 +4x1,292, 5 sec x 343, 343 + 4 x1,292, 3sec x 343

343 + 4×1,292, 3 sec x 343, 343 + 4×1,292, 4 sec x 343, 343 + 4×1,292, 3sec x 343

wat? ö.ö

Yaa, sorry, I tried to crunch it down to save as much room as possible. However, those are really tables. The first one looks like this (don’t know the best way to present tables in these forums)

Time (sec)………………..Dmg………………..skills
1 sec………………..343 + 4×1,292………………..fire ball and lava front
2 sec………………..343………………..fire ball
3 sec………………..343………………..fire ball
4 etc…………………343………………..etc.
5………………..343
6………………..343
7 ……………….. 343 + 4×1,292
8 ……………….. 343
9 ……………….. 343
10 ……………….. 343
11 ……………….. 343
12 ……………….. 343
13 ……………….. 343 + 4×1,292
14 ……………….. 343
15 ……………….. 343
16 ……………….. 343

Note: the damage in the table is not the accumulative damage at that point in time. Those just represent the damage that the skill you cast at the beginning of that second does at that point in time. So, you start by simultaneously casting a lava front and fire ball. lava front doesn’t have any cast time and goes on cool down right away. Fire ball takes 1 sec to cast and has no cool down. The cool down of lava front without alacrity is 6 sec. So, after 6 sec, you can cast another lava front (depicted in the table). At the end of the table, since lava front last for 4 seconds, I have the person cast 4 fireballs during that 4 seconds so that the end time is technically when lava front ends. You just need to add up all the damage to find out how much you did in that 16 sec. For the table with alacrity, it is the same way except the cool down on lava front is 4.5 sec with the 25% decrease. However, as I mentioned earlier, the reality is that you have many skills that get reduced cool downs from alacrity (not just lava front) and each class is different. Thus, it is best to just perform tests with each class based on their rotations for max dps.

So how do you get your 20’992 damage in 16s then? With those numbers you’d be dealing 9’364 dmage in 16s = 585.25 dps.

Anyway, what we are saying is that alacrity increases the damage of skills WITH cd by 33%.
If lava font deals 1292 damage every 6s, this means 215 dps for this skill.
With alacrity it’s 1292 damage every kitten , this means 287 dps for THIS skill.
That’s an increase of exactly 33% (1/215*287=1.33).

Now the attacks between are ofc affected by quickness wich makes them deal 50% more often their damage wich equals 50% more damage in general.

TL;DR:
Skills with cd get an 33% boost by alacrity and by quickness (for their cast time).
Skills without cd get an 50% boost by quickness.
The mesmer boosts the squad by 33-50%, not more and not less.

Xyonon.3987:

So how do you get your 20’992 damage in 16s then? With those numbers you’d be dealing 9’364 dmage in 16s = 585.25 dps.

Anyway, what we are saying is that alacrity increases the damage of skills WITH cd by 33%.
If lava font deals 1292 damage every 6s, this means 215 dps for this skill.
With alacrity it’s 1292 damage every kitten , this means 287 dps for THIS skill.
That’s an increase of exactly 33% (1/215*287=1.33).

Now the attacks between are ofc affected by quickness wich makes them deal 50% more often their damage wich equals 50% more damage in general.

TL;DR:
Skills with cd get an 33% boost by alacrity and by quickness (for their cast time).
Skills without cd get an 50% boost by quickness.
The mesmer boosts the squad by 33-50%, not more and not less.

“So how do you get your 20’992 damage in 16s then? With those numbers you’d be dealing 9’364 dmage in 16s = 585.25 dps.”

You have 16 fire balls at one per second and three lava fronts. Each lava front does 1,292 damage per second for 4 seconds, or 4 × 1,292 damage each = 5,168 dmg for each lava front. Ya, I see the problem you made. Its with the lava front. Each one doesn’t do 1,292 dmg. In the table I have it as 4×1,292 or 5,168

(16×343)+(3×5,168)=20,992 dmg.

“Anyway, what we are saying is that alacrity increases the damage of skills WITH cd by 33%.
If lava font deals 1292 damage every 6s, this means 215 dps for this skill.
With alacrity it’s 1292 damage every kitten , this means 287 dps for THIS skill.
That’s an increase of exactly 33% (1/215*287=1.33).?

Lava front does 5,168 dmg every 6 sec, or 861.333333 dps.
With alacrity, you are doing 5,168 dmg every 4.5 seconds (at 33% perma alacrity means a 25% decrease in the skills cool down), or 5,168/4.5 = 1,148.44444 dps

(861.33333333x)+861.333333 = 1,148.4444444, x=.333333
So, ya, you are right, with alacrity, your skills with cool downs are doing 33% more dps.
(p.s. found out I did something wrong in the first paragraph though. What I calculated is that you do roughly 14% less dps without alacrity. Just like your cool down skills do 25% less dps without alacrity. However, I changed it to % more damage, which is a 17.04% increase in dps with alacrity for a ele who is using fire ball and lava front. So ya, your cool down skills are doing 33% more dps, but you need to take into account your filler skills as well. When you actually look at a more realistic situation, you are not coming up with a 33% increase in dps because you are using more that just skills with cool downs.

And that’s where you’re wrong too – the filler skills are either other skills with CD → alacrity makes them stronger, or they are auto attacks / attacks without CD → quickness makes them 50% stronger. It doesn’t matter what you use, overall every single profession gets boosted by 33-50% due alacrity AND quickness of the mesmer.

About your lava font calcs:
“Each lava front does 1,292 damage per second for 4 seconds, or 4 × 1,292 damage each = 5,168 dmg for each lava front.”
Hehe, no that’s not how tooltips work! xP You think a lava font deals 15-times the damage of your auto? ^^‘’ It’s not 4x 1’292 damage per second for 4 seconds. It’s 4 tics over 4 seconds that deal those 1’292 damage all together. ;3

Greez!
- Ziggy

Xyonon.3987:

And that’s where you’re wrong too – the filler skills are either other skills with CD -> alacrity makes them stronger, or they are auto attacks / attacks without CD -> quickness makes them 50% stronger. It doesn’t matter what you use, overall every single profession gets boosted by 33-50% due alacrity AND quickness of the mesmer.

About your lava font calcs:
“Each lava front does 1,292 damage per second for 4 seconds, or 4 × 1,292 damage each = 5,168 dmg for each lava front.”
Hehe, no that’s not how tooltips work! xP You think a lava font deals 15-times the damage of your auto? ^^‘’ It’s not 4x 1’292 damage per second for 4 seconds. It’s 4 tics over 4 seconds that deal those 1’292 damage all together. ;3

Greez!
- Ziggy

Ok, so if thats the case, like you said, than the ele would be doing
585.25 dps without alacrity and 641.15 dps with alacrity.
So, your percent increase in damage due to alacrity would actually be only 9.53% since your skill that relies on cool down makes up a smaller percent of your damage.

I’m not really wrong with the part your mentioning though. If I wanted to figure in quickness, I could. The only thing I am posting about is alacrity, since people have said its a straight up 33% increase to your dps. I never even mentioned quickness in my posts. My MAIN point that I am trying to show is that you Cant just say its a 33% increase in dps. You have to actually go into the game to test it. I was never responding just to you. I was responding to the title of this thread "Inspired by – “66% dps increase”.
With other skills, there is also a activation time involved with cool down skills. For example, since leap of faith has a .5 sec activation time, the overall dps increase with alacrity is not 33% but 31.17%. And yes, the percent increase in dps a ele can do is not just 9.53%. As I have mentioned, an ele has many damage skills with cool downs. What will happen is that the dps increase will slowly approach 33% as you get to a x class that only uses skills with cool downs and no activation times.

For example,
Thieves may see the least benefit from alacrity
this list may gradually go up with classes
Dragon hunters with hammers may use slightly more auto attacks than say an engi.
Therefore, an engi may see much closer to the theoretical 33% increase than the dragon hunter.
etc.
However, no class will have a 33% increase in dps unless they ONLY use skills with cool downs and no activation times. Yes, I also realize that the no activation part makes little difference. However, the auto attacks do, and ultimately, it all adds up to mean your raid group is not doing 33% more dps either.

p.s. in the leap of faith skill, if you have both alacrity and quickness you are doing about 35.25% more dps. Quickness is similar except it approaches 50% more dps as you get to a class that only uses auto attacks. I think this distinction is important to, not just for alacrity and quickness, but because it means you can’t balance the overall class with the assumption that quickness increases your dps by 50%, you can’t balance the overall class with the assumption that alacrity increases your dps by 33%, and you certainly can’t make the assumption that therefore both of these together increase your dps by 83%. With both alacrity and quickness together, it becomes obvious that these don’t increase your dps by 83%. However, the reason this is ultimately comes from the fact that A. quickness doesn’t simply increase your dps by 50% and B. Alacrity doesn’t simply increase your dps by 33%. There is more to it than just that.

Ok again: Noone thinks Alacrity alone increases the total damage of anyprofession by 33%. We’re talking about the whole Mesmer here:

Alacrity is a 33% dps increase for skills with cd, and only them!
Quickness is a 50% dps increase for skills without cd, (and slightly affecting those with cd).

Together, those two buffs made 50-66% damage boost for any profession, depending on how aa heavy the profession is. Now it’s 33-50%, way more balanced if you ask me.

Are we good? :P

What many people are totally forgetting is that skills have cast time delays. So even if the CD reduction of alacrity was 10000% it wouldn’t be a 10000% damage increase. That’s why that “Mesmers increase everyone’s DPS by 66%” is a horrible oversimplification anyways.
You can only use so many skills in a given time regardless of your cooldown.

That’s where cast time with quickness comes into play. It was never 66% dps increase like ANet said, that’s plain stupid and wrong.
If you’d have skills with CD, but huge cast times, it’d be more like 50% dps increase, up to 66% depending on the cast time : cool down ratio. This made it in reality more like 50-62% or something. On the other hand, now it’s not 33-50%, rather 36-50%, since it’s always shifting to the cast time unless you have insta skills.