Guild Wars 2

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Into_the_Void

Skill 4 with off hand focus. Into the Void is a very powerful ranged pull. I don’t mind that.

What I do mind is that is can be activated immediately upon setting the curtain. Therefore, the skill has no tell and makes the pull unpredictable, there’s no telling when it will go off. As soon as you see the curtain, you have already been pulled. For such a powerful CC, there needs to be a balance.

In order to balance this, Temporal Curtain needs to be up for 1 second before Into the Void can be activated. To be more specific, this is not an added 1 second cast-time just a requirement that the curtain be up for 1 second before itV be cast.

I smell a thief…

No but seriously.. there are more cc skills with more or less instant cast time. Why target this one?

Now, look at focus phantasm. And realize the only reason anyone uses focus outside of pve context is for into the void. (And as a swap weapon for swiftness.)

Cygnus.6903:

I smell a thief…

No but seriously.. there are more cc skills with more or less instant cast time. Why target this one?

Ranged curtain pull. This combo’d with instant cast time makes it too powerful IMO. 1 second before activation isn’t much of a nerf but it will balance the skill so that it will give a slight tell.

Phantasmal Berserker would be pretty OP if the mesmer didn’t have the animation of raising the greatsword in the air. Into the Void needs the same effect.

Would you mind telling me how you expect us to use iWarden without instant Into the Void? With that 1 second everyone would have ran away by then (the range isn’t as big as people think).

Also even if the phantasmal berserker was instant cast it would still only tickle. Currently iWarlock does more damage on a target with no conditions and iMage does more damage with phantasmal fury… All in all iZerker is a complete waste of a phantasm right now. You have noo clue how bugged out Mesmer is right now if you think that using iZerker in any context to justify any nerf is worth something.

4 is powerful because 5 is weak. Focus is fine.

OMG! I think i saw it all now! Now ppl ask for Into the Void nerf?? Whats next?? Nerf iMage?
Ok, it is a good skill and the the curtain is the reason why most mesmers chose focus but theres a lot better CC skills out there….

Cygnus.6903:

I smell a thief…

No but seriously.. there are more cc skills with more or less instant cast time. Why target this one?

+1. I smell a thief that doesn’t want to be yanked out of his shadow refuge.

the 1 second is already built into the mechanics.
happens not that much that a mesmer is casting the wall right infront of his nose.

set wall-pull enemy-step or two steps towards it or send the warden. there is your second.

i guess u just want another second to get an asured escape from it 100%.
without being hit of course.

@Dess:
no more to say ^^

maaa…

Actually, Into the Void already got “nerfed” with the previous patch. There was a timing glitch that allowed using Into the Void at unlimited range!! Yay, that’s what I call overpowered! It got fixed and is no longer possible. Now the Focus #4 skill is fine and 100% bug-free. Good work, ANet!

PS: Thanks to that glitch, quite a few poor dudes fell from very high cliffs. Also there were some JP campers (mostly thieves, of course) who had a very bad day …

PPS: The trident #5 skill with it’s pre-patch unlimited range also had some fun usages in the WvW JP. You’d swim in the water below and use it on some enemy while he jumps from one platform to the next … ouch! Again, this one got fixed. Was about time.

Just get the kitten off this forum. Mesmer gets kittening overnerfed by you moron QQers. Every patch we get a nerf. Seriously every. The viable builds are down to only 3, the damage is starting to get kitten and the gameplay doesn’t make it much more fun with 90% of the roaming population being a thief, like you.

lol at mesmer getting overnerfed.

Anyway, yeah, I do find the curtain exceedingly annoying as a gimmick way of pulling people off of walls and cliffs with zero tell. There should at least be some sort of delay before the secondary effect can be triggered.

The OP — a thief, of course — forgot include all of the following skills which also need to be nerfed because they all push, pull, or launch foes without requiring a target… and he’ll never have to suffer the consequences of depending on stealth again.

Subsequently… I have to ask: Why does it seem like mesmers are the only ones that remove thieves from Shadow Refuge when so many options are available?

Shield of Absorption
Rifle Butt
Staggering Blow
Magnetic Inversion
Illusionary Wave
Throw Mine
Wave of Light
Chilling Wind
Air Blast
Banish
Updraft
Stomp
Thump
Big Ol’ Bomb
Stomp
Tornado

oh don t fear ele forum is full of thieves players either still asking for ele D/D nerfs….

1. The curtain does have a tell, the Mesmer moves/motions their right hand as if drawing a line in front of them.

2. Thief

3. Maybe if they gave backstab or pro teleport strike a ‘1 second before activation’ fix, since you know, they actually don’t have tells at all, I would listen to these concerns

How cute, look at all these mesmers’ jimmies I’ve rustled who are now saying I’m invalidated because I main thief. I bet you guys would be surprised that my first character I made and leveled to 80 was a mesmer. Despite all the nerfs, both thief and mesmer are still very powerful pvp classes. Don’t be sad at the request of a small balancing nerf.

I’ve already told you the reasoning behind the nerf for this CC skill instead of any other. I’ll be kind and repeat myself in detail.

First, Into the Void has an instant cast-time and can immediately be activated after setting down Temporal Curtain. It also happens to have a max range of 1500 range, 900 from setting the curtain and 600 from the radius in which Into the Void pulls. Instant casting with no tell? AOE pull with max range of 1500? That’s quite a powerful snare you got there. All I’m asking is a 1 second delay after the curtain is set before Into the Void can be activated so that there is some sort of tell.

and to my friend, Aneirin Cadwall. Do you see a common trait amongst the skills you listed? All those other CC skills you’ve listed have a short range. Most are in melee range. The ones that don’t will have a clear tell (such as the Throw Mine) . Also, you listed Tornado which is an elite, thanks for the laughs.

Don’t nerf my foucs !
If a thief stealths I almost always drop this and pull. I don’t care where the thief ends up, I just want to confuse them long enough for stealth to drop. Imagine my disappointment when 10seconds go by and still I see nothing…Yes absolutely nerf the mesmers focus…

azuzephyr.7280:

1. The curtain does have a tell, the Mesmer moves/motions their right hand as if drawing a line in front of them.

You say that the hand motion upon casting Into the Void provides a good tell? Perhaps you are forgetting how fast Into the Void can really be activated. As soon as you see the curtain, you are pulled. No time to react. The pull happens during t he hand motion, not after.

azuzephyr.7280:

3. Maybe if they gave backstab or pro teleport strike a ‘1 second before activation’ fix, since you know, they actually don’t have tells at all, I would listen to these concerns

I do plan on making cases for thief nerfs and balances. You’ll see soon.

The focus does need balancing…when you use it to apply swiftness, it should apply swiftness, the way the rules describe. It doesn’t unless you don’t already have swiftness. So if everyone has 2 seconds left of swiftness, your curtain does nothing. I know this was a fix meant to avoid people stacking multiple stacks of swiftness from one curtain, but the wells that give speed don’t have this issue…there are better ways to handle this.

Regarding void – it’s one pull on a medium (traited) to long cooldown.
Being a thief you have access to the same thing, also very fast casting.
sure it’s ground targeted, which makes it good in certain situations, but also harder to use in others.

There are a few ways to telegraph its use:
1) Mesmer is wielding a focus
2)Cooldown is probably done
3) The thief drops a shadow refuge
4) Some lucky soul is standing up close on a wall
5) Someone is trying to res someone
6) Someone is trying to finish someone.

So, having an entire off-hand weapon whose only real threat is a instant pull at 20s cd is enough to warrant a nerf?

Then iwarden better be buffed. But then again, A-net will probably break 10 other things while implementing this.

So a thief is mad because he gets pulled out of Shadow Refuge? Cry more. Your class is already too hard to kill and being able to control the fight with your stealth abilities, heal in stealth and able to get away and reset if things are not going your way.

And you are wrong about having to use the pull right away. You can drop the curtain and use the pull seconds later if you want. This allows the mesmer to either run through it or cast iWarden then use ‘into the void’ (while iwarden is being cast) to pull the target and have iWarden spawn on them while knocked down.

let’s just give all thieves a perma invulbuff, so they stop trying to nerf everything that can hurt them.they cried the loudest for the confusion nerf and anet seems to care way more about them, so ANET please make thieves invulnerable!

Definitely agree that Temporal Curtain should be changed so that it stacks swiftness from other sources and that iWarden should be buffed in some way like having him actually move instead of stay in one place.

Still, for it’s power, Into the Void doesn’t have a sufficient tell. Thanks for the suggestions on telegraphing it’s use. I already expect it to be used in those situations, I still think it needs a real tell.

Xavi.6591:

So a thief is mad because he gets pulled out of Shadow Refuge? Cry more. Your class is already too hard to kill and being able to control the fight with your stealth abilities, heal in stealth and able to get away and reset if things are not going your way.

And you are wrong about having to use the pull right away. You can drop the curtain and use the pull seconds later if you want. This allows the mesmer to either run through it or cast iWarden then use ‘into the void’ (while iwarden is being cast) to pull the target and have iWarden spawn on them while knocked down.

Oh my, such a feisty one. Let’s not forget the mesmer is pretty much the “duelist” class. I still think an equally skilled mesmer could easily take out an equally skilled thief in a 1v1 with boundaries. Also, when did I ever mention that Into the Void MUST be used after the curtain is set? I simply said that it can be used immediately after its set, which IMO makes it op.

It always makes me laugh all the non Mesmer players who come here whining, they obviously see ANET only monitors the Mesmer Forum to nerf stuff, not fix it, these people will only be happy when Mesmer is removed from the game, when there class isn’t the most OP, or they get beaten by someone else, the whining starts.

Jackums.3496:

Where’s our “indication” of an incoming Backstab or Steal? Where’s the delay on a 10k+ burst combo that comes out of nowhere? It’s almost as if you’re a hypocrite.

Basically just cry more.

The indication or “tell” of when an incoming Backstab is coming is after the thief goes into stealth. It’s quite simple. Usually a thief has 3-4 seconds after activating stealth in order to land a back stab. Within that 3-4 seconds you should have known what distance at which the thief activated stealth and when he did and proceed to kite and dodge at the right time according to those parameters. Evading Backstabs isn’t as hard as most people think, you really have to play the class in order understand and counter it.

Regarding the, 10k burst which I’m assuming you are referring to as Basilisk Venom, Steal- Mug, Cloak and Dagger, Backstab. There isn’t too much indication for that. You just need to expect it happen sometime when you target a nearby thief and see it has the Basilik Venom buff on it’s bar and dodge or go into stealth. Also have your stun breaker or invulns ready. That’s how I counter it.

That being said, this is the reason why I want Temporal Curtain to be up for 1 second before Into the Void can be activated just as Stealth needs to be activated in order to use Backstab. When you compare the two, Into the Void can be activated immediately and ranged where as with Backstab, you need to activate stealth (which is the obvious indicator) and be within melee range. Here’s another related video.

The tell for a curtain pull is when you cast shadow refuge or anything that can be countered with a pull to interrupt its usage.

It’s the same theory you are pulling off here. You should be expecting it, meaning keep a close look on the Mesmer. Just like how the Mesmer has to count your 3-4 seconds of stealth as you mentioned.

Counterplay is the keyword. Stop trying to get the game dumbed down. It’s already casual enough. Play tic-tac-toe if you absolutely have to.

Escthiil.3210:

The tell for a curtain pull is when you cast shadow refuge or anything that can be countered with a pull to interrupt its usage.

And what if you’re not using Shadow Refuge? I already expect it to be used when I use SR and proceed to use any dodges available. Your comparison with Into the Void and Shadow Refuge is not the same as expecting when a thief goes for a Backstab. Mesmer can still use Into the Void anytime immediately Shadow Refuge or not.Your argument doesn’t convince me why Into the Void shouldn’t have a 1 second delay.

Epic…
It seems poor thiefs feel unconfortable on landing backstab on mesmers.
Unacceptable. Providing frustration to others should be kept for thiefs. It is in class design.
Fix it fix !

Let A-net fix izerker and the current bouncing on clones first before trying to suggest any other changes. Every single change comes with various other unintended game-breaking bugs enough to lower dps of skills by 30-50%.

At this point, I’m even scared of being buffed by A-net. A mobile-spinning iwarden? Who knows what other undocumented and unintended joke will occur.

@ Jackums

I already know what specific situations to anticipate an itV. Outside of these situations, one cannot anticipate itV. A mesmer carrying a focus is not a good indication of when he will use the curtain but that he has the ability to.

I’ve already established that the animation and activation is way too quick for anyone to noticeably see and react too. I don’t know why people keep trying to argue that there is a good tell for itV, there isn’t. As soon as the curtain is visible a mesmer can activate itV. Both setting the curtain and activating itV takes less than a second I don’t see the posting of the video as counter productive it supports my arguement. You can see the golem get pulled as soon as the curtain appears. The same happened to me in the second video. Less than a second.

As for thieves stealthing out of combat before you can see them, that’s a another story.

i smell a thief………

Phoenix, you don’t realize that other professions can do exactly the same. See the skills that posted Aneirin Cadwall.

You’re just telling to nerf one skill when you want to nerf a mechanic of the game that a lot of skills benefits from it, seems not fair to me.

Moreover, you’re telling to add a 1s cast to into the void, so by the same way, all secondary effect that hasn’t cast time should also have. That would also affect spirits from ranger, for example…

Ansau.7326:

Phoenix, you don’t realize that other professions can do exactly the same. See the skills that posted Aneirin Cadwall.

You’re just telling to nerf one skill when you want to nerf a mechanic of the game that a lot of skills benefits from it, seems not fair to me.

Moreover, you’re telling to add a 1s cast to into the void, so by the same way, all secondary effect that hasn’t cast time should also have. That would also affect spirits from ranger, for example…

Refer to original post and previous replies. No other skills do the exact same. itV is unique.

That being said, I don’t understand how you are saying I want to “nerf a whole mechanic” because I’m not.

Phoenixfudge.5290:

Escthiil.3210:

The tell for a curtain pull is when you cast shadow refuge or anything that can be countered with a pull to interrupt its usage.

And what if you’re not using Shadow Refuge? I already expect it to be used when I use SR and proceed to use any dodges available. Your comparison with Into the Void and Shadow Refuge is not the same as expecting when a thief goes for a Backstab. Mesmer can still use Into the Void anytime immediately Shadow Refuge or not.Your argument doesn’t convince me why Into the Void shouldn’t have a 1 second delay.

I’m not convincing you at all because I know most people who think from their perspective to call for balance are obstinate enough to never admit they are just simply making ridiculous claims for arguments.

Especially when the fact you came up with no counter argument to what I said except that to reinforce the fact that it is simply a pull effect, actually defined by its category of CC.

As compared to the fact that when a thief goes into stealth, he can not only proceed to backstab, stack more stealth or run away, etc.

You might just want to step back and think again about the issues you brought up because they sound stupid enough for people to think you are making a rage thread.

If its instant cast on the pull, then you should be able to dodge if you see the animation going, shouldn’t you?

Steal got even a worse mechanic and is much stronger. I dont see you QQing about that either. Maybe try to get thief nerfed first with your horrible QQ before you move on to mesmer.

Okay Jackums, you argue that itV and CC’s in general are supposed to be hard to avoid and not easily noticeable. We are back to square one, I think itV is overpowered in that it has nearly zero tell to react to and because it’s a long ranged aoe curtain. If you think that isn’t OP compared to the other short ranged often single-target CC other professions get, that’s fine. The itV CC isn’t just a “simple pull with no damage”. CC has potential to unleash burst or stack more CC.

As for thief burst, you should be aware they can’t do the full burst while in stealth. Thief needs to be out of stealth in order to do the full “insta-gib” combo with Basilik Venom, Steal-Mug, Cloak and Dagger, Backstab. If they were in stealth then they could only use Backstab, that is, if they manage to catch up to you or you’re standing still. In general, you should be aware or your surroundings. You mention WvW so I assume you are usually aware of potential enemies. If you see a thief unstealth near you then you should be dodging. These insta gank combos and build are really only good against glass cannons anyways. It’s never been a huge problem for me on my tank beastmaster ranger to which I can easily shut down these thieves.

@Escthiil
I already told everyone why itV is too much of a powerful CC compared to any other CC and why I think it needs a specific nerf. Seems you haven’t been reading my replies or even original post. and really people stop comparing to thieves whole mechanic, it’s not the same I’m trying discuss whether itV is too overpowered compared with any other CC and why it should be balanced.

Here’s the score: Before we discuss any idea of …ahem… modifying Mesmer skills, we first need the following to happen:
-Every whacked little class bug fixed to an acceptable level. By which I mean workable enough that the Profession as a whole is moving along a decent keel, neither OP nor UP in any game mode. This goes for all Professions, really.

As a Thief user, you should understand that this kind of thing ends up limiting build options. And I’d like to think we all want more – not less – options. Also, you’re going to face a certain degree of resentment in this forum, especially when:
1.) Mesmers – like Thieves – constantly deal with accusations of OPness and threats of impending nerfbat.
2.) Consider the Confusion debacle a month prior. That whole bit still stings, for many here … see why asking for more nerfs is an issue?

I want a 1 sec heads-up before a thief comes out of invis to heartseeker/backstab spam me.

Phoenix, you’re wrong.

The mechanic is referred to the non-time cast of secondary effect of skills. You want 1s between temporal curtain and itV because you say it’s op, since you don’t have time to react and avoid the second effect, but other skills have the same way to work, so I’m right when I say what you want to change is a mechanic that affects more skills, not just the way only itV works.

For the unique, again you’re wrong. Throw Mine is the same, but with knockback instead of pull, a ground-targeted skill, with no time cast in secondary effect and 1080 of range.

PD: I’ve noticed that you’re also wrong when you say “pull unpredictable” in original post. To know why see this picture.
http://i.imgur.com/U1iXF.jpg

Once again, it seems that anymore replies to try and help you see the light will be futile because you are the one that is in actual fact, not reading what people are saying.

Your arguments are flawed as whatever theory that drives it can be reversed to be true.

You are saying curtain is too strong compared to CC.

I say thieves burst is too strong while hiding behind stealth.

Both has other factors affecting it, such as follow-up skills or prep skills that make it seem so.

What you are exactly doing now is quoting your own circumstances to justify your stand which in actual fact, does not constitute an actual basis of truth for any form of hypothesis.

Especially with the lack of the big picture and multiple external factors.

Continue being ridiculous if you have to.

Phoenixfudge.5290:

The indication or “tell” of when an incoming Backstab is coming is after the thief goes into stealth. It’s quite simple. Usually a thief has 3-4 seconds after activating stealth in order to land a back stab. Within that 3-4 seconds you should have known what distance at which the thief activated stealth and when he did and proceed to kite and dodge at the right time according to those parameters. Evading Backstabs isn’t as hard as most people think, you really have to play the class in order understand and counter it.

HAHAHAHA!

No, really, no! When a thief goes into stealth, I know there is a backstab coming, but I can only GUESS when it will hit me. Maybe within a second, or maybe 4 seconds later.

Sure, many thief players have a rhythm of stealthing and backstabbing, and after I’ve eaten the first 2 backstabs I can ANTICIPATE when the next ones will hit me. But that’s just the player, not the thief class/ability. If a smart thief player varies his timing, I’m toast because I’ll waste my dodge rolls for nothing – aka at the wrong times.

Sorry, but your defending arguments for backstab are INVALID.

Just as INVALID as your arguments regarding “Into the Void”.

Phoenixfudge.5290:

First, Into the Void has an instant cast-time and can immediately be activated after setting down Temporal Curtain. It also happens to have a max range of 1500 range, 900 from setting the curtain and 600 from the radius in which Into the Void pulls. Instant casting with no tell? AOE pull with max range of 1500? That’s quite a powerful snare you got there. All I’m asking is a 1 second delay after the curtain is set before Into the Void can be activated so that there is some sort of tell.

Yes but this has already been nerfed class-side by having us have no access to any real speed improvements unless we sacrifice major stats.

In other words, we are slower than everyone else. Hence a pull which would be hugely overpowered on another class is ok, because we already cannot catch up with anyone without it.

here’s the issue, as we mesmers see it, or at least me. This class was made for combat control and trickery. If you look through the traits, you’ll notice that there are several trait choices that deal with interrupts. It’s as if they wanted this to be a class that can interrupt stuff…along with rangers. (this was how things were in GW1 in a major way, and it still survives here, but not as pronounced).

We have access to several interrupt skills

• diversion (shatter)
• Magic bullet (pistol)
• Illusionary riposte (sword offhand)
  temporal curtain
• illusionary wave (greatsword)
• chaos storm (staff)
  Mantra of distraction
  Signet of domination

All of those skills either apply daze, or in some way interrupt skill use, and there are traits for mesmers that capitalize on interrupts. Yet only recently have people even started playing around with the idea of an interrupt build. Why is that? Well you notice that I starred several of the intterrupts? Those are ones that have at least a 1/2 second cast time, or may in some other way prevent you from pulling them off immediately. Diversion, for example applies a daze, but only after your clones run to the enemy. So you have to have clones and they have to be in melee range for it to interrupt anything without a long cast time. Riposte shoots a slow moving projectile that dazes. Chaos storm may apply a daze, but it’s random. Because all of these are so slow/unpredictable, it makes reaction-based interrupt control very hard to pull off with mesmers. In fact, the only way these wind up working well is to ether stop very long and obvious cast-times or as part of a lock-down build. So while on paper, it looks like mesmers were designed to be interrupters…in actuality, we’re just frequent dazers/stunners at best (which is not bad, as those are very powerful mechanics too), with access to occasional interrupts.

The problem is, mesmers were obviously designed with control in mind. I do think it’s fair to say that a class/build with great CC shouldn’t also have great aoe burst damage, sustained damage and great survivability…so if your beef is that mesmers are OP’d, I’d go after us in those departments. CC is obviously designed to be a mesmer specialization, so swinging a nerf stick at it makes us into a clumsier version of an elementalist, and just makes the whole game more vanilla and boring. Also, we’ve already seen a huge nerf to both CC and damage with the confusion nerf, so most of us are not very receptive to ideas about nerfing something that very few people complain about, because it is so completely in our wheelhouse, and not OP’d (long cooldown, plus difficult to use other skill on the weapon).

Jackums.3496:

There’s no reasoning your way out of senseless claims given the very profession you “main” is centered around the very same “unfair” nature that you’re claiming Into the Void utilises. Implement a one second delay prior to unstealthing before a Thief’s damage is carried out, and then you’ll be justified in requesting nerfs to Temporal Curtain.

I think enough people have covered why this topic is laughable at this point.

yup, or a 1 second cast time on blinding powder…or a requirement that you hit to be able to stealth with d/p. There’s all sorts of ways that we could nerf stealth to make it possible for people to react.

Nerfing stealth in those ways would make thieves into squishy warriors. Just like nerfing mesmer CC would make us into complicated elementalists.

Yep, he’s a thief, how predictable. Nothing to see here folks, just another person with a poor understanding of Mesmer mechanics complaining about them.

Yet it is funny that the most complained about OP class (currently thief) is complaining.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Yep, he’s a thief, how predictable. Nothing to see here folks, just another person with a poor understanding of Mesmer mechanics complaining about them.

stop defending broken mechanics we all know what makes the mesmer pull broken is the ability to pull people over walls and even through doors in some very rare cases .

same goes for the ones asking for fix the pull time is fine the way it pulls is what’s broken.

simple fix would be for it to “Respect” Line of Sights.

Rezzet.3614:

Pyroatheist.9031:

Yep, he’s a thief, how predictable. Nothing to see here folks, just another person with a poor understanding of Mesmer mechanics complaining about them.

stop defending broken mechanics we all know what makes the mesmer pull broken is the ability to pull people over walls and even through doors in some very rare cases .

same goes for the ones asking for fix the pull time is fine the way it pulls is what’s broken.

simple fix would be for it to “Respect” Line of Sights.

Nothing is broken, it’s just what is meant to be. Moving everyone around it. See this image http://i.imgur.com/U1iXF.jpg.
And by the way, other professions can also pull you from walls. If you don’t want to be pulled, then don’t go to the edge. Cause with itV you can only pull people from walls if they’re in the edges.

Rezzet.3614:

stop defending broken mechanics we all know what makes the mesmer pull broken is the ability to pull people over walls

lol