Guild Wars 2

So I quit GW2 almost a year ago cause Life happened. when I left, I seem to recall that Greatsword-using Mesmers were clowned on for being stupid Greatsword-using Noobs.

Did that stop? did ANet make any changes to make GS worth using?

I’m coming back now, and deciding between a Mesmer and a Thief to play. But if GS is horrible, not sure I’ll play Mesmer, cause GS was the only Mesmer weapon I was ever REALLY REALLY interested in. I used other weapons (mostly Sword/Pistol), but I really wanted to use GS without being a terrible player. Always loved the Aesthetic of it.

can I do that now? or am I still a stupid Greatsword-using noob?

It’s a great shatter weap.

Depends on the content. It’s fine/good in open world/wvw/pvp, but some folks will call you a noob for using one in dungeons. It’s decidedly sub-optimal in that context, but perfectly reasonable everywhere else.

Don’t know what you are talking about. GS was a good option since release. Of course not for all content. In dungeons it sucks because most of the time you don’t range enemies there.

Aren’t you talking about scepter?

LunarNacht.8913:

Don’t know what you are talking about. GS was a good option since release. Of course not for all content. In dungeons it sucks because most of the time you don’t range enemies there.

Aren’t you talking about scepter?

I’m pretty sure he is talking about dungeons. I don’t think anyone cares what you run in PvE in any other context.

The answer to that question is that greatswords still suck for dungeons, so you’re likely out of luck on that front.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

LunarNacht.8913:

Don’t know what you are talking about. GS was a good option since release. Of course not for all content. In dungeons it sucks because most of the time you don’t range enemies there.

Aren’t you talking about scepter?

I’m pretty sure he is talking about dungeons. I don’t think anyone cares what you run in PvE in any other context.

right.

thanks for the quick answers folks.

still deciding what I am going to play while the game finishes downloading.

So yeah as said – dungeons apparently GS is a no-no (I wouldn’t know as I don’t play them).

Everywhere else (open world pve, pvp, wvw…) it is a great choice.

The problem with using a GS in dungeons is that it is very difficult to get any sort of range on enemies in most encounters, and most of the damage comes from 1 at ranges in excess of 900.

There is also the problem that 2 is a little weak overall, unless you need to keep boons off the target. Even then, Sword 1 is better at boon ripping.

GS is still a great weapon, just not optimal for dungeons/fractals unless range is absolutely needed. It’s common knowledge that sword deals the most damage, so that’s the accepted best choice in PvE.

Having said that, GS is still great in open world and WvW.

Plus, I believe the devs have their eye on Mind Stab because it kinda sucks so they’re planning on making it better…..eventually.

Seras.5702:

GS is still a great weapon, just not optimal for dungeons/fractals unless range is absolutely needed.

examples needed

maha.7902:

Seras.5702:

GS is still a great weapon, just not optimal for dungeons/fractals unless range is absolutely needed.

examples needed

The next paragraph had some examples. GS is good for open world pve, it’s a very strong weapon for shatter builds, it’s a good weapon for pvp phantasm builds, and it’s (relatively) good for long range damage in large group wvw.

Just don’t take it into dungeons/fractals. The only time I remember using gs in a fractal was when I had to solo the molten duo.

The next paragraph had some examples.

this:

GS is still a great weapon, just not optimal for dungeons/fractals unless range is absolutely needed.

is what i was asking for examples of

To be absolutely fair, GS is okay for most PvE content that doesn’t require optimization. The phantasm summons fairly quickly and Mirror Blade is a short CD that gives solo might so it’s decent for churning out clones quickly. It’s also got a long range so it’s good for AFKing world bosses, especially the ones that don’t kill phantasms. You can put 3 Zerkers/Warlocks on the Mark II Golem then jump off the platform and grab a sandwich or whatever. I mean that’s true for any weapon but GS/Staff combo gets them up a few seconds faster than a dual sword set.

@maha: I don’t run fractals so I can’t give you examples. But reading the forums I’ve learned that there are apparently a couple fractals where range is better than melee.

Anyone?

off the top of my head:

ZERO

maybe we need to initiate stage two of greatsword purification.

It’s never, ever the optimal weapon. But in some situations, parties can’t handle melee and will range. My regular fractal group can’t handle the dredge Ice Elemental at full melee, so I keep sword/sword + gs for kiting (though scepter+pistol would probably work as well, if not better).

It’s never good to become complacent with this though. I range Ice Elemental for now, but eventually I hope to be able to melee it, so we’ll give it a few tries whenever we encounter it.

maha.7902:

off the top of my head:

ZERO

maybe we need to initiate stage two of greatsword purification.

The only fractal I’ll use it on is volcanic.

In the ‘save the prisoners’ bit, it provides a ranged cripple and quite good distance knockback, and that’s very helpful. I’ll swap it off for the boss though.

On the final boss, I use it because of 2 bugs: wardens and boss cam. If the boss cam bug was fixed (I haven’t done that fractal in ages), then it should be fine to melee. However, with that bug the boss ends up out of your actual FoV, making it simply too difficult to distinguish skill animations. That area is also one of the areas in the game where the warden bug rate approaches >75%, making the standard Mesmer melee defense against it very spotty.

The only fractal I’ll use it on is volcanic.

why not sw/sw + sw/f

In the ‘save the prisoners’ bit, it provides a ranged cripple and quite good distance knockback, and that’s very helpful. I’ll swap it off for the boss though.

or you can

temporal curtain
magic bullet
signet of domination

On the final boss, I use it because of 2 bugs: wardens and boss cam. If the boss cam bug was fixed (I haven’t done that fractal in ages), then it should be fine to melee. However, with that bug the boss ends up out of your actual FoV, making it simply too difficult to distinguish skill animations. That area is also one of the areas in the game where the warden bug rate approaches >75%, making the standard Mesmer melee defense against it very spotty.

boss cam is fixed. I did grawl 38 with like a 10AR guard and did pretty much fine as well, so there’s no excuse not to melee when you can dodge the love arrows (you don’t reflect those anyway) and dodge/frenzy some of the other skills.

maha.7902:

In the ‘save the prisoners’ bit, it provides a ranged cripple and quite good distance knockback, and that’s very helpful. I’ll swap it off for the boss though.

or you can

temporal curtain
magic bullet
signet of domination

You could, but iWave is better than magic bullet, and you can put on signet of domination regardless.

maha.7902:

On the final boss, I use it because of 2 bugs: wardens and boss cam. If the boss cam bug was fixed (I haven’t done that fractal in ages), then it should be fine to melee. However, with that bug the boss ends up out of your actual FoV, making it simply too difficult to distinguish skill animations. That area is also one of the areas in the game where the warden bug rate approaches >75%, making the standard Mesmer melee defense against it very spotty.

boss cam is fixed. I did grawl 38 with like a 10AR guard and did pretty much fine as well, so there’s no excuse not to melee when you can dodge the love arrows (you don’t reflect those anyway) and dodge/frenzy some of the other skills.

Ah ok, if boss cam is fixed, then melee is fine. The boss cam was just…so bad.

Issue with most of the community i usually meet on LFG is they can’t really think for themselves.

Someone told them that GS is for newbies… and so they start attacking anyone with a GS.

Reality is:
You want a GS as a backup weapon in many dungeon fractals if you play for efficience.

GS is ranged
GS is AoE
GS is one of the best weapon to spam illusions (and sometimes you need to shatter with a non shatter build)
GS has a PUSH skill
GS has a ranged boonstrip.
GS can achieve long cripple uptime (with focus also) that makes many fight extremely easier.

Said that if you know what you are doing you will find plenty situations in dungeons and fractals, where to use the GS.

TA aether for example.
SE3 you can clear paths before people can even choose the path itself (also clown car)
Bloomhunger to take care of spirits
Svanir stage to shatter elemental
Dredge fractal.
Ascalon fractal to do stuff too long to explain (see pull and push).
Lava shaman fractal if you play phantasms (possibly the best build for fotm).
And i could go on a lot but basically i wouldn t enter a fractal without a greatsword.

Also in many other situations you won t be able to switch weapon so what you use its not that important but the GS opener is still a great option (even if by a low margin).

Just learn to switch weapons before the fights. Its not that there is anything random

P.S. Iwarden DOES reflect arrows. (covers 90-120 degrees so you should place accordingly)
And if you melee you d better switch because your mesmer is far worse than a bearbow ranger.
Not to mention how GS push and aoes are good during phase, and how much it helps to be able to create 3 illusion to shatter as the phase start.

I like to use GS and Sword/Focus for AoE-situations. I end up using it quite often in Fractals, even while stacking up in a corner. You know… start in GS, use 2, 3 and 4, switch to sword and finish them (if they are still alive, that is). Mirror Blade and iZerker do a really nice bit of damage to stacked groups of mobs. And it’s our only AoE aside from Staff 5 and iWarden (and sword cleave of course).

Also, in the Maw-fight it’s pretty much our only option (aside from spamming Mantra of Pain, which would be ridiculous) to kill tentacles without summoning illusions (some parties don’t like if you do that there, since the fight could (omfgtheworldwillend!) take a minute or two longer). It’s also a good option in every fight where the party doesn’t stack up and you need to range mobs/bosses. And yes, that happens to be the case VERY often, unless you are in a speedrun-group.

Ah ok, if boss cam is fixed, then melee is fine. The boss cam was just…so bad.

Bugged boss cam, almost zero AR guardian. Did a 38.

There is absolutely no excuse for ranging when I can take a low AR character, play on bad latency and survive with two melee sets.

GS is ranged

which pulls mobs or bosses away from the meleers, and you out of boon range

GS is AoE

sword focus not only has an area damage phantasm but a cleaving autoattack.

GS is one of the best weapon to spam illusions (and sometimes you need to shatter with a non shatter build)

You don’t need to spam illusions ever. Every illusion you create, you should ask yourself why you are doing it. Is it to get full compounding power procs? Is it just a damage phantasm? Is it for projectile reflection? The only time I can honestly think you’d want easy access to clones would be fights you want to interrupt attacks on – so a diversion shatter on the imbued shaman and then interrupting his massive lava font attack.

GS has a PUSH skill

focus has a very precise pull and push skill.

GS has a ranged boonstrip.

Sword has a melee boon strip every 2.4 seconds.

GS can achieve long cripple uptime (with focus also) that makes many fight extremely easier.

temporal curtain, illusionary leap.

TA aether for example.

Never done it, nobody I know on my contacts has even suggested that idea either.

SE3 you can clear paths before people can even choose the path itself (also clown car)

what

Bloomhunger to take care of spirits

or… you go sword focus and reflect

???????

Svanir stage to shatter elemental

protip – gs not required

Dredge fractal.

these mobs use projectiles so lets not use our projectile reflection

because ….

because wat

Lava shaman fractal if you play phantasms (possibly the best build for fotm).

“if you play a phantasm build, use a weapon with a low DPS phantasm”

wat

Like, what is even your thought process for half of these? I mean, if you just admitted you liked using a laser sword that would be cool, but you’re actually trying to argue practical application – and in all my time pugging I have literally never taken a greatsword out (besides to pull Tazza, then frifox just said you can just use mantra of pain) and yet … I do fine.

like to use GS and Sword/Focus for AoE-situations. I end up using it quite often in Fractals, even while stacking up in a corner. You know… start in GS, use 2, 3 and 4, switch to sword and finish them (if they are still alive, that is). Mirror Blade and iZerker do a really nice bit of damage to stacked groups of mobs. And it’s our only AoE aside from Staff 5 and iWarden (and sword cleave of course).

Placebo. You think the mirror blade bounces are doing nice damage but you’d do more just using sword auto. Warden covers cleave, mind stab is basically just a sword auto attack.

Also, in the Maw-fight it’s pretty much our only option (aside from spamming Mantra of Pain, which would be ridiculous) to kill tentacles without summoning illusions (some parties don’t like if you do that there, since the fight could (omfgtheworldwillend!) take a minute or two longer). It’s also a good option in every fight where the party doesn’t stack up and you need to range mobs/bosses. And yes, that happens to be the case VERY often, unless you are in a speedrun-group.

Or …. you can melee. Meleeing tentacles really isn’t that hard – it’s pretty much just dodge the moment they do an animation.

You also have yet to provide any example of “[a fight] you need to range [the] mobs/bosses”.

I keep asking for real examples and people keep giving me ones you can just melee on.

Also, obligatory reference to “well I don’t run in a speed clear group” – spoiler alert I rarely run in speed run groups either – and I would consider myself an average player anyway, so it’s not like you need to be some sort of mlg pro to melee bosses.

What we need is less excuses to range and more people trying to learn to melee and figure out boss choreographs. Downing is fine. Dying is fine. The key is learning the tells – and then putting your knowledge in to practice by meleeing.

maha.7902:

Ah ok, if boss cam is fixed, then melee is fine. The boss cam was just…so bad.

Bugged boss cam, almost zero AR guardian. Did a 38.

There is absolutely no excuse for ranging when I can take a low AR character, play on bad latency and survive with two melee sets.

I didn’t say it wasn’t possible, just that it was so bad.

I don’t enjoy wrestling with the camera angle in order to actually fight effectively. It just wasn’t worth my time and effort.

Mantra of Pain spam actually deals better overall DPS than GS if you’re not at max range. Just put the utility on autocast.

I find it useful for powerful mob or bosses that are ridiculously strong in melee range and keeps self buffing ridiculously long protection buffs.

for some reason, a gs is not considered a reflectable atttack

maha… first, take a look at your signature:

My Twitch Channel – Boss solos and more
colesy.8490 / Serah Mahariel – Death and Taxes

Then, let’s take a look at this part of my post:

Saturn.6591:

It’s also a good option in every fight where the party doesn’t stack up and you need to range mobs/bosses. And yes, that happens to be the case VERY often, unless you are in a speedrun-group.

Okay. Now that this is clear, let’s look at the other stuff you’ve written…

maha.7902:

Placebo. You think the mirror blade bounces are doing nice damage but you’d do more just using sword auto. Warden covers cleave, mind stab is basically just a sword auto attack.

Saturn.6591:

You know… start in GS, use 2, 3 and 4, *switch to sword and finish them (if they are still alive, that is). *

You talk like we’d have only one weaponset. Start in GS, switch to sword, problem solved. The more AoE, the quicker groups of trash-mobs die. And since iZerker is one of our two only AoE-phantasms… why not use it? You can switch to Sword/Focus right after, you know.

The rest is again something that I’ve already covered in the beginning of this post… you can’t compare DnT (or similar) with pug-groups of people who’ve never ran with speedrun-groups who pretty much spend most of their playtime in fractals and other dungeons.

maha.7902:

Or …. you can melee. Meleeing tentacles really isn’t that hard – it’s pretty much just dodge the moment they do an animation.

I know that’s not a lot compared to you guys. But I’ve done around 200 Fractals so far, and I’d say at least half of them back when Maw was the only boss-fractal. So that means I’ve probably done the Maw-fight around 30 times in total. And I’ve NEVER seen someone trying to melee those tentacles. NEVER. Not even one person in one single Maw-fight out of 30. I’m not saying it’s not possible. It’s just that… well, obviously you think just because DnT does something, everyone does it. When in fact, most players wouldn’t even get the idea to melee them.

maha.7902:

You also have yet to provide any example of “[a fight] you need to range [the] mobs/bosses”.

For normal mobs, then you can range them while running towards them. Charr-fractal for example, after the fight vs Dulfy. You now… run towards group, Mirror Blad and iZerker, then you’re there, switch to Sword… usually you won’t even get to summon iWarden anymore, because the mobs are already dead. Same with the next group. And so on. And even if they’re not dead yet… the additional AoE from iZerker and the Mirror Blade at the beginning doesn’t hurt anyone (aside fromt he mobs). After that, you can camp sword until they are dead. Even you should agree that mobs die quicker if you already AoE them before you’re in melee-range, and if you start out with two AoE-phantasms instead of just one.

For bosses… well, let’s just say that pug-groups (aka everything that isn’t a speedrun-group) usually ends up ranging most bosses. And guess what… they die. Maybe in 5 minutes instead of 2. But they die.

maha.7902:

I keep asking for real examples and people keep giving me ones you can just melee on.

Well, you know… to give a bit of an extreme example… humans also can pull trucks. Can YOU pull trucks? Humans can also fly to the moon. Can YOU fly to the moon? Not? But humanity can do that. Why can’t you? Maybe because you didn’t train for it? Maybe because you lack the know-how? Because nobody ever bothered to tell you? Because you never needed to try to find out yourself because you don’t really need to do those things to be successful?

maha.7902:

Also, obligatory reference to “well I don’t run in a speed clear group” – spoiler alert I rarely run in speed run groups either – and I would consider myself an average player anyway, so it’s not like you need to be some sort of mlg pro to melee bosses.

Hold on… your signature implies otherwise. YOUR twitch channel has boss solos and more. You also refer to DnT, which is a guild well-known for being speedrun-addicted, doing boss-solos and stuff, doing extensive theory-crafting and number-crunching, and last but not least discrediting everyone who doesn’t 100% agree with them. Nah… you’re not one of those 1337-guys. I mean, you don’t even talk like one of them… oh wait. You do. Every now and then, and also in the last part of your post (not gonna quote the other examples a second time in the same post):

maha.7902:

What we need is less excuses to range and more people trying to learn to melee and figure out boss choreographs.

.

maha.7902:

Downing is fine. Dying is fine. The key is learning the tells – and then putting your knowledge in to practice by meleeing.

You know… dead DPS is no DPS. Also, if people die a couple of times and then try to range the bosses instead and succeed… they will keep ranging them. Because you know… wiping 5 times takes much longer than ranging them and killing successfully in 10 minutes. Because if you wipe 5 times and then end up ranging them anyway, you’ll take 40 minutes, plus you end up frustrated. Why would you want that?

OF COURSE there’s people like you and DnT who try to be as fast as possible. Because dungeons are your life. Because it makes you feel good. Because whatever. Does it hurt you if not everyone (hint: “not everyone” means “most players” in this case) feels like you guys?

Your party will spend most of the time fighting vet/elite/champ in dungeon and GS really lacks the power in stacking spots. But I want to talk more about pros since the cons are covered above

GS – 4, 2, dodge, F1 on zerker shatter mesmer can kill most normal mob (emphasis on normal, not elite, not champ) really quickly, and down veteran’s hp by a lot. Works better if the mobs all group up together. Such burst potential is quite useful in guild rush as well, when you get to be escorts you have to kill things really fast.

GS could be useful if you’re targeted by cleaning ooze in Sparki and Slick fight. Just a little more damage in situations where you have to kite ooze to clean Slick’s poisonous oil. Slick is a poor shot that sometimes he shoots his oil to medium range. Just don’t stay far for too long though because it’ll take much longer for the ooze to reach the next pool (and he might shoot even further when aiming at you). GS could also be useful in fighting Clockheart, where you need to kite hologram to disable Clockheart’s aetherblade shielding. Ofc you can melee Clockheart, but sometimes it can be hard if he cluck all his long lasting spinning cogs around him.

Okay. Now that this is clear, let’s look at the other stuff you’ve written…

I almost never run with guild. Literally ask anyone in DnT right now, I literally never show up for daily dungeon tours because organised runs bore me to tears.

You talk like we’d have only one weaponset. Start in GS, switch to sword, problem solved. The more AoE, the quicker groups of trash-mobs die. And since iZerker is one of our two only AoE-phantasms… why not use it? You can switch to Sword/Focus right after, you know.

Because the interrupt on sword/pistol as second set is better imo. Open up w/warden, switch to sw/p, interrupt a damaging skill.

The rest is again something that I’ve already covered in the beginning of this post… you can’t compare DnT (or similar) with pug-groups of people who’ve never ran with speedrun-groups who pretty much spend most of their playtime in fractals and other dungeons.

Please tell me more about the speed run groups I never run with.

I know that’s not a lot compared to you guys. But I’ve done around 200 Fractals so far, and I’d say at least half of them back when Maw was the only boss-fractal. So that means I’ve probably done the Maw-fight around 30 times in total. And I’ve NEVER seen someone trying to melee those tentacles. NEVER. Not even one person in one single Maw-fight out of 30. I’m not saying it’s not possible. It’s just that… well, obviously you think just because DnT does something, everyone does it. When in fact, most players wouldn’t even get the idea to melee them.

200 Fractals and you’ve never thought to melee tentacles.

You never thought that you could double your DPS just by dodging basic choreographs or blinding it.

Well good sir, ~60 fractals done here (basically nothing) and meleeing tentacles all the time. I feel like recording the next time I do maw just to make a point of how easy it is.

For normal mobs, then you can range them while running towards them. Charr-fractal for example, after the fight vs Dulfy. You now… run towards group, Mirror Blad and iZerker, then you’re there, switch to Sword… usually you won’t even get to summon iWarden anymore, because the mobs are already dead. Same with the next group. And so on. And even if they’re not dead yet… the additional AoE from iZerker and the Mirror Blade at the beginning doesn’t hurt anyone (aside fromt he mobs). After that, you can camp sword until they are dead. Even you should agree that mobs die quicker if you already AoE them before you’re in melee-range, and if you start out with two AoE-phantasms instead of just one.

Yeah sure, they’ll die instantly on like fractal level 1 maybe. On 49s they take longer even in optimised groups. And I feel the CC on OH pistol is worth more than the completely nonexistent “burst” on GS.

For bosses… well, let’s just say that pug-groups (aka everything that isn’t a speedrun-group) usually ends up ranging most bosses. And guess what… they die. Maybe in 5 minutes instead of 2. But they die.

“For bosses, well excuse me as I give no examples at all because there’s no excuse for ranging”.

moving on

Well, you know… to give a bit of an extreme example… humans also can pull trucks. Can YOU pull trucks? Humans can also fly to the moon. Can YOU fly to the moon? Not? But humanity can do that. Why can’t you? Maybe because you didn’t train for it? Maybe because you lack the know-how? Because nobody ever bothered to tell you? Because you never needed to try to find out yourself because you don’t really need to do those things to be successful?

Less hyperbole, more examples please.

I never run with speed-run groups. Literally never. I only use the group-finder tool and find pug groups.

The vast vast majority of pug groups melee bosses, and are quite decent at it. I’ve never ever had a fractal group complain about me meleeing tentacles on maw, and if I’m fighting mobs that are dead by the time I get to them after dropping a zerker/mirror blade, then I don’t need to drop a zerker/mirror blade.

We need to archive all the gs-ftw-gs-sucks threads into one and give it a sticky.

Same arguments, same counter arguments, at least once every other week.

I melee every boss with pugs. It’s not super hard. Offhand the only ones I wouldn’t try to melee in a pug would be the giant ooze in Arah P1 (unless I’m sploiting it) and a few of the fractals bosses. Anet doesn’t make ranged-only content to exclude melee pugs for the same reason they don’t make hard content that would exclude ranged pugs, with a few rare exceptions. But even the Legendary Grawl Shaman etc. are meleeable if you’re paying enough attention.

The problem I have with all these discussions is the result is always the same in PvE: melee with Sword because that gives the best mesmer dps.

Where is the build diversity? This precludes all other mesmer weapon sets that are ranged. The sad thing? We still can’t compete with top melee 100b etc. If you want to melee, go with those classes.

Anet needs to fix the range options because the risk/reward basically kills build diversity. The only unique thing mesmers bring is reflect, and if you spec & time right, that’s where your major damage comes from.

So as mentioned above, what’s viable? Staying alive with reflect and some form of dps. If anyone who insists on strictly mesmer melee is playing the wrong class because if you are a pro dodger, play a glassy top dps – which a mesmer is not.

Arcanis.8049:

The problem I have with all these discussions is the result is always the same in PvE: melee with Sword because that gives the best mesmer dps.

Where is the build diversity? This precludes all other mesmer weapon sets that are ranged. The sad thing? We still can’t compete with top melee 100b etc. If you want to melee, go with those classes.

Anet needs to fix the range options because the risk/reward basically kills build diversity. The only unique thing mesmers bring is reflect, and if you spec & time right, that’s where your major damage comes from.

So as mentioned above, what’s viable? Staying alive with reflect and some form of dps. If anyone who insists on strictly mesmer melee is playing the wrong class because if you are a pro dodger, play a glassy top dps – which a mesmer is not.

stillin2012.txt

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

stillin2012.txt

Care to elaborate?

Is there a debate that single target melee dps mesmer is a contender?

Mesmer dps is bad, but 50% lower mesmer dps is even worse. If you bring a mesmer into a group, it’s your responsibility to minimize how much you weigh your team down. With melee sword and sword offhand (or pistol), the DPS is actually very much a contender, and will not weigh the team down much at all.

Yes, your primary responsibility is reflects and so on, but it’s everyone’s responsibility to DPS. And GS gives you no advantage over sword (it doesn’t help reflects), so it is not responsible to use it (unless the entire group decides to range or whatever).

Arcanis.8049:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

stillin2012.txt

Care to elaborate?

Is there a debate that single target melee dps mesmer is a contender?

Contender with what? Staff ele is obviously better sustained both single-target and AOE but if you’re comparing DPS on a single target with any other class, then no, there’s no debate, except that mesmer is pretty much 100% sustained and lacks burst.

And, what environment are you comparing in. Fully buffed? Solo? Pug?

I find GS/Staff to be the most fun weapons on the Mesmer when paired with a shatter build.

GS/Staff Is the spec for a tpvp build I recently posted too.

Zelulose.8695:

GS/Staff Is the spec for a tpvp build I recently posted too.

LumpOfCole.4701:

I find GS/Staff to be the most fun weapons on the Mesmer when paired with a shatter build.

You don’t play GS/Staff in PvE, and you don’t play shatter in PvE, which is what the vast majority of this conversation has been about.

Hold on… your signature implies otherwise. YOUR twitch channel has boss solos and more. You also refer to DnT, which is a guild well-known for being speedrun-addicted, doing boss-solos and stuff, doing extensive theory-crafting and number-crunching, and last but not least discrediting everyone who doesn’t 100% agree with them. Nah… you’re not one of those 1337-guys. I mean, you don’t even talk like one of them… oh wait. You do. Every now and then, and also in the last part of your post (not gonna quote the other examples a second time in the same post):

We correct people who make mistakes and you’re … calling us out on that? Doing the community a service by giving them good information is bad? Are you serious?

You know… dead DPS is no DPS. Also, if people die a couple of times and then try to range the bosses instead and succeed… they will keep ranging them. Because you know… wiping 5 times takes much longer than ranging them and killing successfully in 10 minutes. Because if you wipe 5 times and then end up ranging them anyway, you’ll take 40 minutes, plus you end up frustrated. Why would you want that?

And if the melee person dies at 50% they did more than the people afk ranging for the rest of the fight.

Why would you not want to learn how to melee? Yeah, you’ll die. But that’s part of the learning process.

OF COURSE there’s people like you and DnT who try to be as fast as possible. Because dungeons are your life. Because it makes you feel good. Because whatever. Does it hurt you if not everyone (hint: “not everyone” means “most players” in this case) feels like you guys?

It is slightly annoying that players show no interest in improving, as demonstrated by your post here.

“Let’s range because doing cancer DPS is better than learning how to do higher DPS”.

Well, I would still agree with Arcanis, in that it is sad that we are in this seat weaponwise. If ranged is always going to be the worst weapons for PvE, there should at least be more than 1 melee weapon for each class to choose between, or some mechanic like attunements with Ele for variety.

I love the sword but it still gets tiring sometimes, even if ranged weapons sometimes come close or are on par or even better situationally. There really is a big lack of choice.

On the topic here, isn’t the very reason we see these threads all the time, an indicator that there is a problem with variety in itself? :P I doubt that people championing other weapons want to do bad dps. They just want to use another weapon, and therein lies the dilemma.

So let’s see, you have 30/20/0/20/0, 30/20/0/0/20, 10/20/0/25/15, 10/20/0/20/20 and 30/30/0/0/10 builds and you’re complaining about diversity.

“I can’t use a weapon I enjoy” =/= lack of diversity

And there is more than one melee weapon for most classes, just not mesmer.

The variety right now fine, people are just mad they can’t shoot with their laser and for that to be considered optimal.

You are delusional if you think that out of all of our weapon options, having

S/S
S/F
S/P

is considered diversity. 3 out of your 5 skills are always the same and there is no play style but melee. I see that you avoided Chaos in all of your builds. Anet obviously designed it just for looks.

I accept that this is the current meta (and btw what are meta if not to be constantly challenged?) but you should also be aware that there are such things as several viable metas and each are very competitve.

For the casual community, all weapons are viable. The l33t sword users need to get off their high horses and appreciate the serious flaws we mesmers have today. Suggesting sword as the only way is like suggesting Bolt as the only weapon because, why settle for anything less?

Most classes tend to have only one viable mainhand weapon, maybe two tops. Look at engineers, they constantly kitten about their only good weapon requiring manual ground target even on the primary, or rangers where their best weapon roots you in place 90% of the time and you can’t even stack or strafe with it.

Arcanis.8049:

I see that you avoided Chaos in all of your builds. Anet obviously designed it just for looks.

That particular line is strongest in PvP. It is very strong in PvP, and not just because of PU. This isn’t any different from how most classes work. A lot of the traits and trait lines are dead space in PvE.

It’s a design problem. GW1 did this by having skills that are pvp/pve specific. They’ve done it before so why stop now?

To make an entire tree not viable in one game mode is just silly. I don’t know about other professions – is that comparable or just us mesmers?

Arcanis.8049:

It’s a design problem. GW1 did this by having skills that are pvp/pve specific. They’ve done it before so why stop now?

To make an entire tree not viable in one game mode is just silly. I don’t know about other professions – is that comparable or just us mesmers?

Shrug. Not being able to change out your weapon skills a la carte kinda sucks sometimes, but the thing is that “optimal” (as opposed to “tolerable”) is a very narrow band. It was in GW1 as well: how many high-end PvE mesmer builds were there, really? (IIRC, 0-2.)

I GW1, I ran entirely different builds in PvP and PvE. Cripslash and Dslash Lockdown are like night and day. Probably a good half of the best PvP skills were entirely unimpressive in PvE.

There’s pretty much nothing you can do for Greatsword that will make it as optimal as Sword in high-end PvE. Because Sword isn’t just about personal DPS, it’s overall team synergy from being able to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with everyone else. That’s fine. Greatsword still has a huge niche. It’ll always have a place in WvW and SPvP, it’s fine in open-world stuff, it’s the most practical choice for a lot of world events.