Guild Wars 2

Carighan.6758:

Dixa.6017:

mb does not hit for twice the dps. you can’t calculate dps in this game because there is no way to combatlog and parse

If Attack A hits every 10 seconds for 1000 damage and Attack B hits every 30 seconds for 6000 damage, then B does 2x the DPS of A.

Easy as that. :P

no actually it is not. all damage in this game varies. crit chance and crit damage over a period of time has to be averaged out. rng variations have to be averaged out. input lag, server side lag and straight missing need to be accounted for.

if you had any experience in these matters i would not have to explain any of that to you.

EasymodeX.4062:

That’s sustained based on cooldown and ignores baseline damage output between the casts of the special ability you’re looking at.

A more granular scenario would be something like a random skill A (let’s call it “Mirror Blade”) takes 0.75s to execute and hits for 3500 * 2 every 4.8s. Random skill B (let’s call it “Winds of Chaos”) hits for [1200+419] in 0.75s. Random skill C (let’s call this one “Spatial Surge”) hits for 3500 in 1.0s every 1.0s.

In a given 10 second interval, skill A fires twice (1.5s) for 14000 damage with skill C filling the gaps (8s) for 28000 damage. Spamming skill B for 10 seconds would net around 21047.

Spamming A + C is around 42k damage in 10s, and B is about half that. So half dps.

Edit: For individual metrics; MB’s DPS for its animation becomes 9333, with WoC at 2159. Maybe I should have originally said 4×.

The bottom line is that many players don’t realize that when using a Staff, you have exactly 1 button from 1-5 that deals anything more than a dribble of power-based damage, and that is iWarlock. Everything else is negligible damage.

When you use GS, you have 4 buttons that deal ‘solid’ power damage. Mirror Blade is almost as potent per cast in direct damage as using a phantasm. Bonus points being that it can be used every 4.8s [traited], unlike phantasms.

your ‘metrics’ are a poor substitute for an actual parse. crit chance is not static it’s subject to the random number generator. an ability like mind spike has to be manually aimed and is not fired perfectly on cooldown if your target has moved or you have. these are things taht a simple calculation will not show, but an actual parse over 10 minutes would.

dps is not burst. until these devs give us the actual tools to log combat and parse it internally or externally you have nothing but anecdotes to go from. best you can do is fraps a target dummy fight using only one ability, bring it into a video editor with a time scale and do the math on that single ability on it’s own. example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybQ9gh2oN0g

The GS is super legit. It’s great for shatter builds but best suited for Phantasm builds. The #1 skill is weak when you’re right next to your target but does great damage at a distance, especially if you’re if you’re running beserker gear/sPvP amulet. The #2 skill causes vulnerability stack on an enemy it hits, summons a clone, and is a projectile finisher. #3 skill hits up to 3 target for mediocre damage but it’s main usefulness is that it strips a boon from everything it hits. #4 phantasm does insane damage if you’re traited correctly and it’s considered AOE and will strike up to 5 enemies dealing a ton of damage. #4 GS phantasm is easily one of the most powerful Mesmer skills in game. #5 skill is an effective crowd control skill that creates separation and can be used to knock enemy players off ledges and cliffs.

The GS is one of the most effective weapons a Mesmer has at his disposal. Anyone that thinks otherwise has no clue what they’re talking about and obviously doesn’t play Mesmer at a high level. It’s really just a Learn to Play issue with some people. If someone gives you grief about a using a GS you can laugh to yourself about them being a super noob.

Dixa.6017:

no actually it is not. all damage in this game varies. crit chance and crit damage over a period of time has to be averaged out. rng variations have to be averaged out. input lag, server side lag and straight missing need to be accounted for.

if you had any experience in these matters i would not have to explain any of that to you.

I don’t think you understood my post, but it was only loosely related to the thread so n/m. No use arguing about it.

Dixa.6017:

your ‘metrics’ are a poor substitute for an actual parse. crit chance is not static it’s subject to the random number generator. an ability like mind spike has to be manually aimed and is not fired perfectly on cooldown if your target has moved or you have. these are things taht a simple calculation will not show, but an actual parse over 10 minutes would.

If you’ve not played WoW much, you should probably read the discussions about simulations vs parses vs actual performance on Elitist Jerks. Especially the Warlock forum used to go quite deep into those due to the differences in DoT-heavy damage output versus direct damage output in that regard.

To sum it up briefly: What you say is universally accepted and part of the Disclaimer of any damage theory discussion. It’s so universally accepted and pervasive that bringing it up as a counter-argument is futile in the sense that we are all very much aware of it.

To relate back to this topic, a parse would not change the issues you describe. Not at all. It would only highlight them, as it would show the difference between what happens ingame, how it is not related to what happened before or will happen the next time (for the largest part, combat in MMOs is a stateless system if compared between disconnected time slices), and how it compares to simulations.
But, it’s “ok” that this doesn’t change the issues. It’s part of what you accept when you theorize about damage. It’s the limitation of the whole idea of theorycrafting.

It’s a solid weapon.

Greatsword is designed for longer ranged play. Works well in groups where you don’t need the staff’s Phase Retreat.

Staff is better for when you think you’ll feel that pressure (or are using a condition damage based build).

Both are good but in different ways.

DaisyRogers.6837:

I just get to bored with GS most cases, why it chills in my pack. I blow my cool downs and then I stand about and go pew pew backing up when needed. Its just not active enough for my play style. I love the spastic running and dodging and stealthing that my primary weapon sets give.

GS has its uses and is extremely effective at what it does. I think people would be foolish not to carry one.

(My ranger is same way, I have my primary weapons, but I’ve got my bows and sword/dagger combo in the pack for the times they prove most beneficial).

Exactly how I feel. Nothing wrong with the GS, apart from that it’s painfully boring after a few minutes. It’s just a “rinse-repeat” weapon compared to the more involved strategies the others promote. Hence it is the focus of Lazy Kai’s build – it is the most straightforward and mindless of the Mesmer weapons, and the easiest to handle. That isn’t a diss on the GS or people who like it – people can like simple weapons for a million reasons, many of them excellent, but I just find myself practically asleep at the keyboard when using it.

Eurhetemec.9052:

DaisyRogers.6837:

I just get to bored with GS most cases, why it chills in my pack. I blow my cool downs and then I stand about and go pew pew backing up when needed. Its just not active enough for my play style. I love the spastic running and dodging and stealthing that my primary weapon sets give.

GS has its uses and is extremely effective at what it does. I think people would be foolish not to carry one.

(My ranger is same way, I have my primary weapons, but I’ve got my bows and sword/dagger combo in the pack for the times they prove most beneficial).

Exactly how I feel. Nothing wrong with the GS, apart from that it’s painfully boring after a few minutes. It’s just a “rinse-repeat” weapon compared to the more involved strategies the others promote. Hence it is the focus of Lazy Kai’s build – it is the most straightforward and mindless of the Mesmer weapons, and the easiest to handle. That isn’t a diss on the GS or people who like it – people can like simple weapons for a million reasons, many of them excellent, but I just find myself practically asleep at the keyboard when using it.

True, gs cannot be reflected which means that there is no downside on pressing #1 all day. Really, I want anet to reduce cd on the #5 skills. Mesmer can have a larger variety play with the only gs defensive skill .It will be more interesting to play a gs mesmer in the long run.

in fact, they can nerf the damage of illusionary wave for all i care

GS is absolutely a viable choice for mesmer especially now that spatial surge will hit up to 3 targets. I play classic shatter and despise using staff, not because it isn’t viable but because I like to be more aggressive than I feel it lets me, zerker and mirror blade are great because the spawn at the target ready to be shattered. illusionary wave is nice when you’re being rushed and havne’t swapped weapons yet. GS5 swap to sword ileap blurred frenzy /laugh over the corpse =)

Carighan.6758:

Dixa.6017:

no actually it is not. all damage in this game varies. crit chance and crit damage over a period of time has to be averaged out. rng variations have to be averaged out. input lag, server side lag and straight missing need to be accounted for.

if you had any experience in these matters i would not have to explain any of that to you.

I don’t think you understood my post, but it was only loosely related to the thread so n/m. No use arguing about it.

Dixa.6017:

your ‘metrics’ are a poor substitute for an actual parse. crit chance is not static it’s subject to the random number generator. an ability like mind spike has to be manually aimed and is not fired perfectly on cooldown if your target has moved or you have. these are things taht a simple calculation will not show, but an actual parse over 10 minutes would.

If you’ve not played WoW much, you should probably read the discussions about simulations vs parses vs actual performance on Elitist Jerks. Especially the Warlock forum used to go quite deep into those due to the differences in DoT-heavy damage output versus direct damage output in that regard.

To sum it up briefly: What you say is universally accepted and part of the Disclaimer of any damage theory discussion. It’s so universally accepted and pervasive that bringing it up as a counter-argument is futile in the sense that we are all very much aware of it.

To relate back to this topic, a parse would not change the issues you describe. Not at all. It would only highlight them, as it would show the difference between what happens ingame, how it is not related to what happened before or will happen the next time (for the largest part, combat in MMOs is a stateless system if compared between disconnected time slices), and how it compares to simulations.
But, it’s “ok” that this doesn’t change the issues. It’s part of what you accept when you theorize about damage. It’s the limitation of the whole idea of theorycrafting.

i dont understand why you responded to me at all when i was talking to easymodex who implied that parsing is not needed.

Qwyksylver Vyqtunos.6312:

GS is absolutely a viable choice for mesmer especially now that spatial surge will hit up to 3 targets. I play classic shatter and despise using staff, not because it isn’t viable but because I like to be more aggressive than I feel it lets me, zerker and mirror blade are great because the spawn at the target ready to be shattered. illusionary wave is nice when you’re being rushed and havne’t swapped weapons yet. GS5 swap to sword ileap blurred frenzy /laugh over the corpse =)

Except the zerker is missing 75% of its attacks currently… I love the GS. And I MEAN LOVE… but I loved his phantasm even more… And now its not worth using… Mindstab is cool but for the ability to remove a single bon its meh… And MB is amazing.. But 1 amazing attack… 1 okay C/C and an auto attack with range requiremets…. the phantasm was what made the GS really shine. I can’t wait for the to fix it so i can go back to blowing kittenes up.

GS on Mesmer is a noob weapon, for baddies that just want to press 2+4 on CD for success. Oh and how they cried after this ridicoulus phantasm got balanced, all those tears

Staff FTW and i dont get people that dont play Staff in PvE or group based WvW.
Chaosstorm is one of the most powerful abilitys in this game.

I run GS with Sword + Focus with 20/20/0/0/30 shatter build – taking Illusionary Elasticity for an easy opening 9-15 stacks of might at medium range (even with nerf to Shattered Strength). Swap to sword for Blurred Frenzy and finish with MW for 12-18 stacks of might by the time they’re dead. =)

Kontrolle.3514:

GS on Mesmer is a noob weapon, for baddies that just want to press 2+4 on CD for success. Oh and how they cried after this ridicoulus phantasm got balanced, all those tears

Staff FTW and i dont get people that dont play Staff in PvE or group based WvW.
Chaosstorm is one of the most powerful abilitys in this game.

Right here you are not only condescending but make yourself feel that you know absolutely everything about mesmers… GS is an AGGRESSIVE weapon… staff is a DEFENSIVE weapon… Sometimes I want a hardcore aggressive build where everything I do is putting loads of pressure on my enemy… The GS phantasm is AMAZING for that… And it did not get balanced… it got BUGGED… which if you paid any attention at all you would see that ANET has acknowledged they bugged it out… if it got balanced it would be in the patch notes and it would not be missing 3/4 attacks.

Now when I want a more defensive build I will take the staff. Chaos storm is a powerful ability but not one of the most powerful…. The boons don’t last very long from it and neither do the conditions but the combo field is a nice way to proc chaos armor. And while the GS phantasm is bugged out I am running scepter sword and sword/torch/focus/pistol depending on what would be most useful for that situation… And Scepter/Sword is by far the least noob friendly weapon set we have when it comes to range…

@Kontrolle:
Eh, I do GS/Staff on a regular basis. The synergy’s pretty wicked, tbh. GS for your heavy offense/sniping work, then Staff for defense/escape/boons and conditions. For that matter, if you’d like to see a “non-noob” usage of GS, I’d suggest checking out any of Nevhie’s more recent vids. She uses every skill on the bloody thing, to wicked effect.

Of course, YMMV.

Advent.6193:

@Kontrolle:
Eh, I do GS/Staff on a regular basis. The synergy’s pretty wicked, tbh. GS for your heavy offense/sniping work, then Staff for defense/escape/boons and conditions. For that matter, if you’d like to see a “non-noob” usage of GS, I’d suggest checking out any of Nevhie’s more recent vids. She uses every skill on the bloody thing, to wicked effect.

Of course, YMMV.

does Nevhie has a youtube channel with all her videos?

rchu.8945:

does Nevhie has a youtube channel with all her videos?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Video-MSS-GreatSword-Mesmer

Dozo~

Nevhie.6079:

rchu.8945:

does Nevhie has a youtube channel with all her videos?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Video-MSS-GreatSword-Mesmer

Dozo~

Those video’s showed me a mesmer with a greatsword, spamming damage abilities while taking the full load damage on him/her self. So in short, it’s pretty much a good video to show what a greatsword can and can’t do.

GS is not a bad weapon, it depends on your playstyle mostly and what you prefer. GS is great on range, and even though all abilities are offensive ones, that doesn’t mean it’s effective if you’re an offensive player. If you’re aggressive you’ll get into bad positions more easily, and that’s what sucks about the gs, you have to be very aware of your position.

Retsuko.2035:

Nevhie.6079:

rchu.8945:

does Nevhie has a youtube channel with all her videos?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Video-MSS-GreatSword-Mesmer

Dozo~

Those video’s showed me a mesmer with a greatsword, spamming damage abilities while taking the full load damage on him/her self. So in short, it’s pretty much a good video to show what a greatsword can and can’t do.

GS is not a bad weapon, it depends on your playstyle mostly and what you prefer. GS is great on range, and even though all abilities are offensive ones, that doesn’t mean it’s effective if you’re an offensive player. If you’re aggressive you’ll get into bad positions more easily, and that’s what sucks about the gs, you have to be very aware of your position.

I think that’s what makes it great… It requires more situational awareness! But kitten anet fix my zerker!

Kontrolle.3514:

GS on Mesmer is a noob weapon, for baddies that just want to press 2+4 on CD for success. Oh and how they cried after this ridicoulus phantasm got balanced, all those tears

Staff FTW and i dont get people that dont play Staff in PvE or group based WvW.
Chaosstorm is one of the most powerful abilitys in this game.

I understand that you like the staff. It is by far the easiest weapon to handle.
One attack that works at any range (better in mid to short range), one clone generator, one single target damage phantasm that stays at range.
Two defensive abilities with a long cooldowns (even traited), with one being a combo field – combined with the clone generator you get the same effect as the other defensive ability.
Sure, you can use chaos storm as an offensive tool, but there is not much more to the staff than this. It is the easiest weapon of them all, but it is just too slow to get anything done in PvE. Why would you use it?

Looks like you do not understand the GS. It is for the fearless, the coordinated. You mess up, you might die, you know how to dodge and get out of range, you will succeed. Every single skill on the GS has it’s uses.
Don’t get me wrong, I wrote the Lazy Kai guide. It might sound noobish, but it is just the first step into an aggressive playstyle with a lot of awareness needed. If you use sword/focus as off-hand like me, there is a lot of buttons to push on the right time, or you will get eaten alive. On the other hand, if you know what you do, it can be very satisfying to take down whole groups of enemies in a matter of seconds.

Sure, you can do this with a staff too, it will just take forever and you will feel a bit more safe. If you think that is less noobish, all the power to you.

Most of the more experienced mesmers have over 1000h on the profession (me too), and most of them have realized that every weapon has its reason to exist even if some need some love.

i use gs s/focus.. while i like the dps on izerker..(ignoring the stealth nerf).. the reason i carry greatsword is cc from wave. using wave to knock someone away from you switching weapons then using curtain to pull them back to you is a very very long cc(knockdown) and it lets me set up into a ileap blurred combo very easy.

the next reason which is more situational is.. greatsword (and focus) both create all thier clones at the target so you can fight off or on a wall and down attackers in one combo where the staff creates clones at you that are pretty crappy in that situation.

for roaming / jumping into the middle of 5 guys i would most likely want a staff. to fight 3 or less people while im solo or doing tower wvw stuff i like sword better.

As someone who can’t part with his sword+focus on his mesmer, I feel like GS is a lot better in a shatter build than with staff (remember my alternate weapon is a s+f).. the pull from focus synergizes well in pulling mobs away from you and iWarden spawns right beside the target for shatters. Staff is only better if Illusionary Persona is taken into account, since it relatively keeps you safer. If not for IPersona, I’m sure people would be taking GS instead.

When I need to stack Confusion very fast and in large quantities, there is nothing like S+F/GS due to the fact that I have 2 Whirl Finishers (iZerk and iWarden)… so the chain could be Mirror Blade (To cause Vuln and get Might stacks) + Feedback + iZerk + switch weapons + iWarden + Confusing Images.

With the change in Confusing Images, you can stack up to 15 Confusion in less than 10 seconds.

I always prefer the staff in WvW. It’s really the best balanced weapon in terms of survivability and offense in mass Zerg vs Zerg.