Guild Wars 2

I’m planning on trying MtD with scepter/focus and staff. Do you think this will be a “cheese” build because it is condi and uses scepter and IE staff clones? I personally don’t, as without PU you’re def. not super hard to kill. I’m just curious as to what everyone’s opinion is on MtD in light of the buffs to scepter AA and IE (ofc assuming IE actually happens this time…).

Playing around with MtD a lot and honestly a duration change ranges from Non-Buff to Laughable attempt to seem like a Buff. You’re still going to be better off with IP or PU or CI or one of the other worth while GM traits mesmers have..

MtD falls apart the moment you require the illusions to successfully shatter on a target. it then falls further when you only apply 1 stack of Torment per illusion that did shatter and wasnt dodged, blocked, you were blinded when it blew up, the foe was immune to conditions at that time, the foe was invulnerable at that time, the foe went invisible and your clones lost their target and just blew up half way there, etc…

The duration on MtD is really short pre patch, pretty much matches the Confusion stacks duration you apply from each shatter as well, after the patch it will be roughly 2 seconds longer than your confusion stack duration.. still not very long.

The stack intensity isn’t being altered, which is the biggest let down behind this GM trait. 1 stack per illusion means you can only stack up to 3 stacks per shatter. Max you might be able to stack on in a very short duration burst (and hope they ran out of cleanse or dont have a passive cleanse) is between 6 to 8. sounds like a crap ton and it can be a lot of damage but only if they’re running the entire time.

MtD and other Non PU mesmers also don’t fair as well doing Solo stuff. Groups are better with the lack of Stealth Cheese on your part and IE + staff will still take some time to stack bleeding and burning to really start hurting your target. It’s a slow wind up build that can very quickly lose momentum if your clones get wrecked or you shatter at the wrong time..

Scepter buff is cancer, MtD buff is fine and very needed, IE bug fix is fine since we should have had it from the beginning.

Thanks for reply Warlord , but what I’m asking is: Do you consider the build taking MtD with scepter/focus(or whatever) and staff cheese? I’m not asking what people think of the changes to each of those individually, we already know very well what everyone thinks about that.

MSFone.3026:

Thanks for reply Warlord , but what I’m asking is: Do you consider the build taking MtD with scepter/focus(or whatever) and staff cheese? I’m not asking what people think of the changes to each of those individually, we already know very well what everyone thinks about that.

Cheese is a false construct made by those who aren’t capable of intelligent counterplay.

That being said, I’ll just assume you asked if it’s going to be very strong. The answer will be no. MtD will be better than it is now, but it’s still lacking heavily just in the fundamental concept of the trait usage. MtD builds will still be outclassed by clone-death builds, even after associated buffs/nerfs.

Fay.2357:

MSFone.3026:

Thanks for reply Warlord , but what I’m asking is: Do you consider the build taking MtD with scepter/focus(or whatever) and staff cheese? I’m not asking what people think of the changes to each of those individually, we already know very well what everyone thinks about that.

Cheese is a false construct made by those who aren’t capable of intelligent counterplay.

That being said, I’ll just assume you asked if it’s going to be very strong. The answer will be no. MtD will be better than it is now, but it’s still lacking heavily just in the fundamental concept of the trait usage. MtD builds will still be outclassed by clone-death builds, even after associated buffs/nerfs.

Adding on to Pyro here, I think clone death got buffed since now it will remove blinds and blocks now which is actually kinda huge.

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

it will remove blinds

Not a big buff for clone-death builds, but a significant buff for non-clone-death builds that happen to take a clone death trait.

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

and blocks now

This is pretty significant for clone death builds. More consistent application of scepter torment blocks in particular is very strong.

Not even close to being ‘cheese’. MtD still won’t be that much of a threat because baseline condi shatter does not offer enough burst to make up for the dps you lose by sacrificing illusions that could be stacking bleeds and burning (and torment soon).

Anet need to add more stacks of torment to MtD or buff Cry of Frustration for condi shatter to ever be that much of a threat.

Fay.2357:

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

it will remove blinds

Not a big buff for clone-death builds, but a significant buff for non-clone-death builds that happen to take a clone death trait.

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

and blocks now

This is pretty significant for clone death builds. More consistent application of scepter torment blocks in particular is very strong.

And people might start blowing dodges to evade clone deaths (go figure). That could actually turn out to be a very good thing depending on the build/situation. If we can get them to waste dodges to avoid a couple bleed stacks, we can anticipate, set up and have a greater chance of landing our next attack/burst.

I think MtD builds will be more common then before, but probably not by all that much. I think it’ll provide a nice alternative to the glassy Power Shatter builds, allowing people to learn the basics of shatter but with a little less frustration of being super glassy.

Effectiveness of MtD can be argued, I think in organized play it will be largely ineffective, but in other facets of PvP it can probably do surprisingly well against unorganized/inexperienced enemies.

I don’t agree it needs more stacks, but it is still lacking overall for a GM trait.

I think the real strange/annoying thing will be that in many cases you’ll be worse off Shattering your Clones then keeping them alive. You may end up shattering your Phantasms instead! ;-)

I think it’ll be nice to apply some AoE Condies and allow for a burst application of Condies that could be pretty nasty, again especially against disorganized/inexperienced players in group fights.

skcamow.3527:

Fay.2357:

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

it will remove blinds

Not a big buff for clone-death builds, but a significant buff for non-clone-death builds that happen to take a clone death trait.

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

and blocks now

This is pretty significant for clone death builds. More consistent application of scepter torment blocks in particular is very strong.

And people might start blowing dodges to evade clone deaths (go figure). That could actually turn out to be a very good thing depending on the build/situation. If we can get them to waste dodges to avoid a couple bleed stacks, we can anticipate, set up and have a greater chance of landing our next attack/burst.

I love the way this forum thinks lol. People at first say clone death was a nerf (the DD change was a straight up nerf), but now its turning out to be a pretty large buff after some brainstorming.

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

skcamow.3527:

Fay.2357:

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

it will remove blinds

Not a big buff for clone-death builds, but a significant buff for non-clone-death builds that happen to take a clone death trait.

Warlord of Chaos.7845:

and blocks now

This is pretty significant for clone death builds. More consistent application of scepter torment blocks in particular is very strong.

And people might start blowing dodges to evade clone deaths (go figure). That could actually turn out to be a very good thing depending on the build/situation. If we can get them to waste dodges to avoid a couple bleed stacks, we can anticipate, set up and have a greater chance of landing our next attack/burst.

I love the way this forum thinks lol. People at first say clone death was a nerf (the DD change was a straight up nerf), but now its turning out to be a pretty large buff after some brainstorming.

That’s a byproduct of theory-crafting. It’s got nothin’ on actual experience.

It will be interesting to dig up these threads in a month or two and see how wrong people were (or how right).

My bet is Mesmer stays right where it is in all game modes.

If you play condition shatter you need to rely on auto attack on torment more in the beginning. Instant shatter will definitely not work like power shatter. You set up your illusions, after some attempts your shattering illusion finally hit your opponents but your opponent cleansed the condition before your set up pays. Shatter’s burst nature also puts much less pressure on opponent between shatter waves, much different from non-shattering specs like phantasms.

So you need those AA torment or AA burn/bleed first to roughen your opponent or make them panic, then use shatter when they burnt their cleanse. That’s pretty much the way I see MtD. Due to its burst/sacrificing illusions nature you lack a reliable way to constantly apply strong conditions. In a way you can say this trait is pretty bad, because in order for this trait to work we need some easily applicable conditions outside of illusions.

Well thanks for the responses! This is exactly what I wanted, people’s take on the build in light of the new changes. I know from experience theory can say one thing and reality can be another, so I’m pumped to give it a real go and try pretty hard to see how much mileage I can get out of MtD. I would love to be able to get on par performance with PU clone death, because in my opinion the shatter play style is more challenging and engaging. Am I nerfing myself by not just playing PU condi if I want to play a condi build? Maybe, but not anymore than how much I’m nerfing myself by not playing Ele or Guard or War lol :P

If MtD turns out to be as lackluster post patch as people seem to think, I’ll just stick with shatter or CI which should be pretty cool with the mantra buffs and the sword/focus fixes.

On whether or not PU clone death will be stronger or not post patch, my opinion is definitely not as strong. It will have reduced pressure and reduced defense, I’m expecting a pretty kitten experience for PU condi post patch. On the other hand CI would benefit a lot from aegis getting eaten by DD, in fact DD could be used as an aegis clear in place of a shatter, which is very cool.

Lemme break down for you why MtD itself isnt a great GM in a different way, since everyone else said the same thing as i did in different ways already.

Can it be effective yes, but only as a mid fight/end fight pressure.

Going Condition based generally means a lot less Power, so you wont be spiking and Conditions cannot Spike in the same way as direct damage.

Torment can hit kinda hard but in such tiny durations with limited stacking, you need a very special Boon to really make them count while they are up.

That Boon is Might.

Mesmers, more specifically Condition shatter/tanky mesmers have a lot less access to High amounts of Might.

You will need a lot of might to make the 4 to maybe 5 ticks of your Torment really hurt, and you will need them upon/during the application.

Best sources of might come from BI (6 max 5 garunteed on interrupt), 5 into Illusions (3 max) GS 2 (max of 6 even with IE) BI is the only one without a tiny duration limitation. You could also try AT or the New mimic (baring that it even works) to boost/steal your foes might as well.

you could also add in Runes and Sigils that grant might and you can fairly easily maintain about 10 to 12 maybe 15 stacks of might under the perfect circumstances.

in practice you might be able to keep 5 to 8 stacks up, your clones will often get cleaved or destroyed, you will get focused down easier due to a lack of invis even with higher armor/hp and without interrupts and huge spikes taking down High Sustain classes even 1v1 will be an uphill battle.

D/D ele’s and Stuper Hambow Warriors are softer counters to this type of build, and thieves are a very hard counter, they need to move much less than other classes thanks to soooo many teleport skills and Invis makes shattering a crap shoot.

This build can absolutely wreck newer players than jsut spam their keys and run around willy nilly, but any Mesmer build can down these people without a lot of effort.

As of current, using a MtD build, I got more damage and more pressure and mileage out of putting up 3 staff clones and just kiting / taking the focus fire while WoC ate through health with Burn and bleed using 3-6 torment +3-9 confusion from shatters as a Final push when my opponents start to run away to down them.

MtD basicly takes a Shatter set up, encourages you to gear it up with more health and armor and then run it like a Phantasm build, while discouraging you from using Phantasms (they only stack bleed).. I don’t recommend it unless its just for the Lulz and Trolling of Hotjoin.

There’s a very simple way to determine if something is “cheese”:

• Did it kill you and it’s not the exact same thing you play? Cheese.
• Did you kill it? Not cheese.
• If it killed you and you also play it, you were lagging.

Carighan.6758:

There’s a very simple way to determine if something is “cheese”:

• Did it kill you and it’s not the exact same thing you play? Cheese.
• Did you kill it? Not cheese.
• If it killed you and you also play it, you were lagging.

Nailed it.
But seriously, scepter itself has turned into the cheesiest weapon. I don’t think it’s possible to incorporate a scepter into a build without it being cheese. (Condi mesmer was already a rather passive style of gameplay)

I’m going to try scepter staff just for fun . 0,4,6,0,4 just dodge around in stealth and watch ppl die. maybe shatter 2 once in a while for kitten and giggles.